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Maggie Peterson
Posted - 2005.01.20 00:48:00 - [31]
 

Do agents give out tech 1 originals?

Id put up with the research if an agent gave me a decent original like M or L guns with a lot of research points.

Would also make starship enginneering viable to get blueprints of things like ravens, rather than pay the XXX millions.. or sometimes billions of isk..

Mining Maxx
Caldari
Posted - 2005.01.20 03:02:00 - [32]
 

Hi,

Quote:
I am fairly convinced that the public consumption of techII will not really be changed by the inclusion of more techII bpos. On the one hand, sure, the maximum potential hourly production figure could go up. But I don't think that really is what is really going to happen at all. And I don't mean that simply because some techII BPOs lie dormant occasionally either.
The market for techII products is fuelled by those who can afford them. And those who buy them the most are those who can afford to lose them the most. This sales figure is bolstered by a few who purchase techII gear occasionally or for NPCing.


More BPOs actually would make a difference... Not too many, though, or the market could be damaged.

As a matter of fact, tech2 items need to be more commonly used/required now or the whole POS issue will end in a desaster.When the demand for advanced materials used for tech2 rises, POS could get affordable even if you dont have to mine ALL the required reactions to make a finished product. It would create a a market for single reactions as well, which is now absolutely not the case.

Also, to be honest... it would lower the chances of the - let me call it - "organized crime"... BPO cartels and monopolys are already a sad fact in eve, and thats not because its to keep the market alive.
Cap recharger 2s have existed for less than a mil already before the tech2 lottery was invented. now people are holding the bpos and our only few items on the market to keep the price at 10mil and more for their sole profit.. not for the benefit of the market.

A few more bpos dropped in the game could help fix this, but i still blame the whole r&d mechanics for being the main cause of the mess. People who really work hard for a bpo are less likely to sell the bpo to the first bidder they meet. those who get them rather "accidentally" care less, so the rich corps/alliances continue to grab all the good bpos and the rest has to wait...and has to accept the dictated prices.

Makes the rich richer and the poorer guys bite dust...

See my thoughts on the need to improve the r&d rp balancing in the eve idea lab section as well...

Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2005.01.20 05:17:00 - [33]
 

Solution to that mess: give BPCs instead of BPOs.
Plain and simple.
Control to prevent flooding ?
Quite easy: CCP checks every month how many modules/ships have been built and release BPCs accordingly.
Lottery ?
Worst idea ever.
Point system ?
Sounds more fair.;

But anyways, give out BPCs, not BPOs.
1 run for ships, more runs for other modules ?
Who cares, so far as one having spent the time once get 'something'.

Lygos
Amarr
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2005.01.20 10:41:00 - [34]
 

If CCP ever patches the fundamental economic mechanisms to make techI products turn over faster and move more volume on the market with the same player population.. i.e. boost purchasing power per hour of work, then the techII market will become more vibrant.

Of course, in an environment where things are increasingly disposable, luxuries like hi tech goods may be out of the daily budget of many dedicated fighters. (Using the platonic definition: one is only a fighter when actually fighting, not sitting in a safespot getting the engine run time counter up contra the potential bluebook value on your junker while waiting for a fight.)

I wish there was a way to look at and market ships and modules as used vehicles and goods. Permanent wear and tear over time would really push market volume in all fields.

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2005.01.20 11:14:00 - [35]
 

While I can think of several systems that would be more interactive for research players, the current system gives everyone the potential to make a break though and get a T2 BPO. This is great for players like me that play solo.

I have invested over a month in getting Research Program Management to level 5 and weeks for each science skill to level 4 that I was researching. For this investment I have received 5 T2 BPOs over the last year.

For this reason I like the current system and if it changes, then any change is going to have to address the months that players have put in to maximize thier potential within the current framework.

Vigilant
Gallente
Vigilant's Vigilante's
Posted - 2005.01.20 14:45:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Miri Tirzan

I have invested over a month in getting Research Program Management to level 5 and weeks for each science skill to level 4 that I was researching. For this investment I have received 5 T2 BPOs over the last year.

For this reason I like the current system and if it changes, then any change is going to have to address the months that players have put in to maximize thier potential within the current framework.


And here is what I say to that "Wah F'ing Wah"...

Everytime something changes, in any MMO, someone will get the short end of the stick PERIOD....

Fixing T2 Distrubution is very easy.... Offer the BPC's as suggested....or Drop an Entire nother set of what was dropped before... Ensuring they do not goto CORP's in possesion or associated with CORP's that already own said BPO's....

Another set will NOT destroy the market... Actually it will create competion for those owners of the BPO's already...

But, those who already own them don't want that...That is "why" everytime...this is said...they start whining about "how the system is fine, because I already got my 5 "

Obviously its hosed....CCP needs to fix this....

capt
Posted - 2005.01.20 15:00:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Miri Tirzan

I have invested over a month in getting Research Program Management to level 5 and weeks for each science skill to level 4 that I was researching. For this investment I have received 5 T2 BPOs over the last year.



Either you are the luckiest guy in the entire EVE community or you are simply bullsh*** us.Confused

Spare a billion or 2?ugh

Pehma Hess
Posted - 2005.01.20 16:03:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Miri Tirzan
While I can think of several systems that would be more interactive for research players, the current system gives everyone the potential to make a break though and get a T2 BPO. This is great for players like me that play solo.

I have invested over a month in getting Research Program Management to level 5 and weeks for each science skill to level 4 that I was researching. For this investment I have received 5 T2 BPOs over the last year.

For this reason I like the current system and if it changes, then any change is going to have to address the months that players have put in to maximize thier potential within the current framework.


This is exactly what I've been talking about. It seems that those who win the tech 2 bpo's continue to win bpo's over and over. You're not the only one who has invested time and money into developing Research Management skills, but you are one of the few who continue to win bp's and win them repeatedly. Perhaps it is as simple as the Random Generator algorythm not being very "random" when it selects Tech 2 winners, and simply needs to have the algorythm reviewed for viability. Though I'd still like to push for the "Point System" vs the "Random System" as I think that provides more of a "realism" feeling to the game that everyone seems to prefer.

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2005.01.20 16:06:00 - [39]
 

I don't know whether to laugh or cry really...

I just got offered a BPO for just 3.5k LP's from a good lvl3 agent for whom I've never done missions for and is researching for just about 2 months ugh

I have another agent researching since the first week of castor with about 60K LP's in plasma physics that has given jack squat.

So erm besides my apparent "luck".... I still think the system sux Neutral

Toran Mehtar
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2005.01.20 16:07:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: capt
Either you are the luckiest guy in the entire EVE community or you are simply bullsh*** us.Confused

Spare a billion or 2?ugh

Why is it that whining and ignorance always seem to go together ?

I have two tech II bpos, one has so little market that it (hypothetically) sits framed on the wall above my toilet. The other, I can produce about 20 units a day from at max. production. If I could also manage to sell at this rate (which I am nowhere near due to - competition and lack of demand) I could possibly make 30mil a day. That's a fair bit of money for the effort required to build my items, but could just as easily be made with a couple of hours npcing or mining in 0.0. Some people ask for more of each bpo to be released. I can assure you that I would hardly bother to produce any if that were the case, as It wouldn't be worth my time. Why release more if no more will actually get used ?

Yes there are a few people making stupid money (mostly cap recharger IIs). Most of the others are making, at best, as much as they could from other activities. Do I care if the ~20 cap recharger II bpo owners are making lots of money ? No. They don't ruin the game for me, and I would rather that cap recharger IIs were being produced than get rid of them just because somebody who isn't me is making isk.

So somebody got 5 tech II bpos, big deal. What they are is a lot more important than that there are five of them. At the moment some implants are worth more than some tech II bpos.

Lefia
Gallente
CONsordium Infinate
Posted - 2005.01.21 00:48:00 - [41]
 

I think perhaps a median between the offer system and the lottery system might provide a better (while still flawed.. perhaps heaviliy) system. Make tech 2 BPOs part of the lottery system (wich uses the research points in the same way as they are used now). However, as you build these research points, your agent will produce offers for BPCs which you cash your research points for. That way hardcore players won't neccisarily curb the BPO market, while still allowing a decent flow of tech 2 components into the market limiting the number of monopolies, oliogopolies, and cartels beefing up the prices.

But again, imperfect solution... but in this case I doubt there is a perfect solution... just a solution that ****es off the least number of people.

Captin Biltmore
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2005.01.21 00:51:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Lefia
I think perhaps a median between the offer system and the lottery system might provide a better (while still flawed.. perhaps heaviliy) system. Make tech 2 BPOs part of the lottery system (wich uses the research points in the same way as they are used now). However, as you build these research points, your agent will produce offers for BPCs which you cash your research points for. That way hardcore players won't neccisarily curb the BPO market, while still allowing a decent flow of tech 2 components into the market limiting the number of monopolies, oliogopolies, and cartels beefing up the prices.

But again, imperfect solution... but in this case I doubt there is a perfect solution... just a solution that ****es off the least number of people.


This is by far the best suggestion I have ever heard to this problem. Devs, can we take notice of this post?

Nybbas
Guiding Hand Social Club
Dystopia Alliance
Posted - 2005.01.21 01:02:00 - [43]
 

Or you could make RP grow in a somewhat exponential function, (even though as it seems it doesnt matter how many RP points you have when people who have 2K RP get a offer over someone who has 100K) So that people who are starting out maybe they are getting like 100 RP a day, while someone who already has 50K RP are getting over 600 RP a day, increasing peoples chances who have been at it longest by a bit more than people who just started. And also 20 BPO's just isnt enough, the longer the items are out I THINK the more BPOS SHOULD be released, why cant a research agent "discover" another ares BPO just because 20 other people have already? This way of course the stuff is REALLY rare at first, but as time goes on and the tech becomes outdated more and more people get it, and have access to it, thats how it is in real life isnt it?

Trillium Hardson
The Fourth Empire
Posted - 2005.01.21 02:59:00 - [44]
 

Maybe we could possably turn in our research points for LP points. If I'm looking at 2 to 3 more years before I might get a offer, I wouldn't mind another option.

Trillium Hardson

Toran Mehtar
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2005.01.21 11:47:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Trillium Hardson
Maybe we could possably turn in our research points for LP points. If I'm looking at 2 to 3 more years before I might get a offer, I wouldn't mind another option.

Why not just get rps as we do now, but also get lps in addition for doing the missions ?

Makes doing the missions worthwhile, which it barely is right now.

Steven Dynahir
Gallente
Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
Posted - 2005.01.21 13:44:00 - [46]
 

They should add T1 BPO's to the lottery, so that you can get "unlucky" and lose the RP points you have. Say 10-100 T1 BPOs per week.

There should also be a "vacation time" for the agent, so when you get "unlucky" and lose your RPs, the agent goes to vacation for a month.

And last, you should only gain RP if you do 10 missions for the agent in a week. When you start you would get the RP for that week, but on the next week you wouldn't get any if you didn't do 10 missions for him/her.

This would make the lottery more fun and demand some activity from your part.

Exarch
Defiance Weaponry
Posted - 2005.01.21 15:02:00 - [47]
 

Right now research is about the only field that doesnt favor the people who play 16 hours a day and i have a feeling those are the people crying the most here.

Most of the people who have gained multiple bpos have invested alot of time training to be a researcher. It's only a very few t2 bpos that make those insane profit margins, and that is because of skyhigh demand. If everybody wants something then it should be very expensive.

Galea Wildfang
Inebriated Consortium Enterprises Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.21 15:25:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Exarch
Right now research is about the only field that doesnt favor the people who play 16 hours a day and i have a feeling those are the people crying the most here.

Most of the people who have gained multiple bpos have invested alot of time training to be a researcher. It's only a very few t2 bpos that make those insane profit margins, and that is because of skyhigh demand. If everybody wants something then it should be very expensive.


You sound as if those that have the time to play multiple hours a day didn't train up skills or worked for their RP's. I've started researching right as it got implmented and chosed Caldari Starship Engineering as the field to work on (as probably thousand others did). I sticked to the field as we got the option to run multiple agents. Now I got 4 agents working on it, with combined over 250,000 research points there and yet have to see something for the time I invested in training as well as in doing missions for my agents (which I ceased to do after about 3 months). I invested alot of cash in researhc skills and the supplies my agent kept sending me after. What for ?

In my book, the lottery system didn't work (especially as it was flawed in the beginning, favoring people with lower research point ammounts). So once this is all over, I would like to be able to at least buy BPC's in the field I researched with the research points I collected.

One more point, that disapointed me. People researching other fields got something quite early, thus have been able to restart their project. They could have gotten like 2 or 3 BPO's in fields not many researched in, hop to sharship engineering and will have by now almost as much research points in that field as I do.

It is too late to change the system, but if I'd be set a year back, I'd train something else rather then buy lottery tickets.

Just my opinion.

Threat
Minmatar
Fat Lip Inc.
5th Rule of Kintaro Alliance
Posted - 2005.01.21 20:41:00 - [49]
 

Fair ... yes (its a lottery, there are no guarantees)
Failure .. no
Could be improved... certainly.
I really like the BPc idea, it favors those that have lots of RP (mostly due to high skills or doing the daily missions). I do not fall in that category, I have an agent, no offers, but dont do the missions.
To those out there that say owning a t2 BPO is like printing isk, not true, manufacturing is hard work. You need to gather all of the t2 comps, which are being being hoarded or sold at silly prices. You then need to move the comps to your manufacturing facility. Hauling takes time.
Manufacturing can take anywhere from hours (like some damage mods) to days (like the ships) per item.
You also need to contend with the people that insist on undercutting to mineral /comp prices (yes it happens with t2 as well).
You need to distribute your product to different regions, watching out for the suicide caracals.
On the other side if you have the right BPO you can make a killing. If you have the isk to buy an original it might be worth it. Many of the "mega corps" own multiple bpos because they have made considerable sums on the first one they had and bought more (including multiples of the same BPO to speed up production).
One last note is that copying them takes more time than manufacturing the items, which is why you see so few BPCs. If someone is taking the time to copy then they arent manufacturing, causing a shortage in the items.

Exarch
Defiance Weaponry
Posted - 2005.01.21 21:42:00 - [50]
 

Actually i am a serious researcher, i run 5 agents who have a combined rp of over 300,000 in Caldari starship and that is after my Harpy breakthrough. I even have Starship Engineering at level 5.

They can't switch to a lp system without making almost everything i have trained completely useless. They should just add some bpcs of faction loot into the mix, some 2nd place prizes for all the whiners.

The simple fact is with a limited number of bpos not everybody will have one - nomatter what system is used - or they will have no value. All you guys are complaining about is to switch the system so it favors powergamers.

DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
Posted - 2005.01.22 11:13:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Vigilant
Problem I see...Is how many are actually being used daily ? How many are completely useless (support cruisers, comes to mind) ?

And, why have they (CCP) not let another set go ? (i.e Ceptors, PDU II, Cap Recharger II, etc. ) Would another set of 8 (assuming that is the number)...Destroy the economy ?

CCP needs to re-evaluate how they are distrubuted ? 5 go straight to the alliances, cause they have the money...and people are greedy...looking for the fast buck....Heck, I just want cheaper BPC's of some Tech 2, that would make me happy...

Time to make somethings cheaper....(not like HACS or something)...but some BPC's should be more available at better prices....

Oh, yeah ...since we are on the topic (some what)...Time to make more Shield AMP BPO and Cargo Expanded 1's more available...just put them on market...




My argument as well..
a "unique" bpo can stay that way for the life of the game and that sounds a bit odd to me. I would hope that the 8 base is released, 6 months later another 16 of those are released, and then mayb anor 16 months later they could be obtain'd by anyone using some strange "in game" method..

I hear story's of some advanced mining drone bpo's being out there, and even harvie bpo's being out there..
Who knows what kind of bpo's are out there that we cant buy.


DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
Posted - 2005.01.22 11:18:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Exarch
The t2 prices are not inflated, it only looks that way because the t1 market is so depressed. Most t1 items should be selling at twice the price they are selling for now.

Producing t2 items takes a large amount of time, the profit margins must be high or the bpos would not be worth their cost.


It is inflated.
750k item for 3mil after the market reaches saturation .. when it's new then it's more like 750k item for 20m .. I think that both are slightly excessive profits.


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