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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.12.30 11:08:00 - [121]

Originally by: Katarin Savage
4) could we have a dedicated menu item on the main petition thingy specifically for sisi petitions so they all go to one person and his/her team dealing with masstesting and sisi problems in general??

Hey look.. something good in that post.
If you now would be so kind and put this in a proposal for the assembly hall, I'm sure there will be plenty of people to support you.

Posted - 2010.12.30 12:50:00 - [122]

While you're still in the jot down mode, I'd like to tack on a few more things :

  • When putting up a personal contract (as opposed to corporate contract), I would like an option to re-direct the contract's costs & proceeds to a selected corp wallet division - mirorring pretty much the mechanics behind the market buy/sell orders. Corporate contracts require corp hangar which isn't always available or not cost effective to maintain (for ad-hoc contracting which doesn't require a large/overkill number of contracts).

    Since I prefer to maintain separate wallet divisions for different purposes, the above process becomes very painful when you have to manually track and transfer the correct isk amount (from personal wallet to corp wallet) to keep things in order.

  • Consider creating a new category of contract, tentatively called Player Donation. This is to facilitate the ease of use when transfering/giving items between characters by completely removing the isk field anywhere in the contract. To prevent (the current trade item) scam abuse, it should only go one-way only -> creator to beneficiary.

    Yes, it's a duplicate of 0 isk contracts, but the the important reasoning here is to simplify the UI choices rather than have players wade through the normal choices for simple trade between alts or friends. That may be enough of a carrot to encourage ubiqitous usage. The 10K isk minimum fee can also be reduced to a token 1 isk as further incentive, which of course will still stop any negative wallet players.

  • From an interface standpoint, if you can reduce the number of pages that the player needs to go through in creating a contract to 2 or even 1 page (!!), I'd consider that a step into innovation.

  • I'm not sure if this has already been covered in any previous feedbacks or whether its in the pipeline. Auction. It's a clickfest since sniper timing is hidden. Have the server semi-automate all biddings by the default bid amount - up to the maximum specified by the bidder.

    While if may not completely eliminate manual clickings, in most scenarios, the player won't have to screw around clicking mindlessly, playing the patience game ala 0.01 isk market trading. The sad fact, it'll get to the SAME conclusion in the end anyway - highest bidder wins. Let the server do all the default bid amount instead and you can potentially save bandwidth/DB treshing.

  • The ability to re-list/renew an expired contract. It's simple feature. Sometimes things don't get sold/picked up when the contract timer expires. Rather than deleting the contract, requiring the player to start everything all over gain, have an option to put the contract in edit mode for re-listing. There should be a one-click express button for re-listing, if player doesn't want to make any updated changes to the expired contract.

  • Another reminder for the "Simple View" option. It needs to be there.

Locin WeEda
Red Frog Investments
Posted - 2010.12.30 12:57:00 - [123]

Edited by: Locin WeEda on 02/01/2011 13:32:16
Edited by: Locin WeEda on 30/12/2010 23:39:47
Originally by: CCP Atlas

Maybe we're wrong and maybe the new search is very useful for private contracts. Let us know! :Smile

I'll state it: you are wrong, at least we in RF desperately needs these improvements for our private contracts.

To be precise, the following features of the new contract search would be welcome for private contracts:

1. be able to see the oldest contracts at the first page (we freqently have more than 100 contracts outstanding), and the oldest contracts gets pushed to page 2 (or page 3 when we are really busy) when we sort on time left for instance.

2. Be able to see whether the courier contract goes through high sec, low sec or null-sec would be very useful. Although we specify that all our contracts should be high sec, we still have to type in the route in our trip calculator to verify that the route is indeed high sec. Being able to filter on these would make it easier for our pilots and contract managers.

3. Filter on volume. We have the max volume our customers can use set at 860k m3. With the volume filter, all volumes less than 860k could be displayed to our pilots, while our contract managers easily could find contracts to reject by looking for contracts issued with more than 860k m3.

4. The filter on reward is not particulary useful for RF in our current mode of operation, but I can visualize contract managers using it to spot contracts with too much payment (like a zero too much on the reward)

5. I personally would not mind searching private courier contracts and exchange/auction contracts separately, if it meant a better user inteface on both.

6. In addition to outstanding contracts, you should really make it possible to export data from finished contracts in some way, either via an api, or by an export button (allow for selection of multiple contracts, please).

By adding these tools to the private contracts tab, you will empover many more corporations to deal with courier contracts on a daily basis, and allow courier companies to have a proper queue for their customers.

Oh, and CCP Atlas, the offer still stands for you or another CCP dev to join RFF for a day or two to observe the day to day operation and get ideas for optimization of the private/corporate contracts tab. Feel free to bring a freighter pilot with just 500M available for collateral, and a little short on our 860k limit, and you will soon notice how nice it will be with filters for private contracts. :)

Edited: Here are Red Frog Freights contract statistic for 2010. These are all private contracts set up to our corporations. I am sure you can see the need for filters, proper sorting, and easier ways to accumulate numbers :)

Apollo Gabriel
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.12.30 18:59:00 - [124]

Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 30/12/2010 19:09:19
Just read the blog,


Thank you CCP.

As to the Info provided by users being used in Scamming, are you saying that because it was used for scamming, you don't want to change it?

It seems strange that a very restrictive system of contract creation would be consistent with the whims of the lister.

BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2010.12.30 20:45:00 - [125]

Originally by: CCP Atlas
Originally by: Molic Blackbird
I would love to see this search added to our finished contracts. With completed contracts in the thousands and no contract API, finding specific contracts is a vary time consuming and tedious task.

That is probably not going to happen within the client, at least in the foreseeable future but with the Contracts API that's on our roadmap it will make things much easier for the conglomerate contractors out there.

If introducing the full search functionality for completed contracts is out, would it at least be possible to get an option for the completed contracts to be full-sorted based on completion date rather than the current sorting in order of creation?

This would greatly assist people tracking their completed contracts through the UI - currently you have to page back through 14 days worth of contracts to be sure you have caught any newly-completed contracts.

CCP Atlas

Posted - 2010.12.31 02:15:00 - [126]

Thank you all for your comments so far; there are some really good suggestions here. Let's see if we can get a few of them into the next iteration on Sisi shortly after the new-years.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.31 02:22:00 - [127]

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 31/12/2010 02:48:39
Originally by: CCP Atlas
Thank you all for your comments so far; there are some really good suggestions here. Let's see if we can get a few of them into the next iteration on Sisi shortly after the new-years.

Hey Atlas, did you guys consider making the Contract node a distributed document database like MongoDB? Seems like contracts are the perfect use case and it has proven scalability and performance. Other than that, I look forward to seeing how this turns out. My profit margins were hurt pretty bad by the introduction of faction ships to the market, but I still like it.


Ed: Also, this change is epic. On the subject of listing/filtering sec status: it would be swell if you could filter out stations you don't have docking rights at. :)

StarFleet Enterprises
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.12.31 20:21:00 - [128]

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: CCP Atlas
Originally by: Zendoren
Originally by: Jason Edwards
bpc vs bpo differentiation?
I'm assuming you mean in the search results? That should already be on Sisi.
Differentiation between BPO and BPC in other locations, such as your hangar, is on our backlog for the next release. The deployment of the 64-bit Inventory allows us to work on this feature.

"The preceding statements are forward-looking and do not constitute a promise of a delivery of said feature at a certain date."

As it stands on Tranquility, it isn't possible to create a want-to-buy contract for blueprint copies; the item list only allows 0-ME/0-PE blueprint originals to be requested. ('All blueprints are originals' also applies to killmails, which can cause some interesting statistics)

serenity one
United Federations
Posted - 2011.01.02 01:42:00 - [129]

the feature i want to see is where you can right click an item and click "view contract details" just like you do for normal items when clicking "view market details:.

Posted - 2011.01.02 10:31:00 - [130]

Hardcore. Concentrated. Win.

Thank you CCP <3

StarFleet Enterprises
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.01.02 11:40:00 - [131]

Edited by: Abramul on 02/01/2011 11:56:22
Originally by: serenity one
the feature i want to see is where you can right click an item and click "view contract details" just like you do for normal items when clicking "view market details:.

Seconded, but I would suggest only applying it to non-market items, and maybe assembled ships.

+Edit: Another thing to consider is lottery contracts. Trust-based lotteries seem to be fairly popular, but trust and Eve don't mix too well. If I remember right, the ability for a contract to hold money from multiple people is already present in auction contracts; at least, I think those don't refund until the end.

Way I'd do it is have a termination date and termination amount, and complete the contract if either are reached. Any unpurchased tickets would count as having been bought by the issuer. Might also want an optional cap on the number of tickets any one character can buy.

Posted - 2011.01.03 11:38:00 - [132]

How about a icon to let you know you have a private chat invite rather then it popping up at the wrong time in a mission or PVP engagement?

Eraggan Sadarr
Comply Or Die
Posted - 2011.01.03 13:16:00 - [133]

Aging contract system... pffff
What about the bookmark system. Now that is AGING!! The UI is hopeless for managing bm's and you even removed the option to right click and when to bookmark when in system map.
Bookmarks really needs a rethink/refactoring/redoing/redesign.
That is on my 2011 wishlist!

Originally by: Eranziel
Nice improvements, looking forward to it. :)

Thought if I could make one teensy request, it would be that the contract creation window would linkify the name of the character/corp/alliance you're making a private contract to at some point during creation. That way if you're making a private contract to someone you haven't made one to before, you don't have to wait til the contract is up to get a link to check you did indeed spell the name right. ;)

I agree completely!! This is by far the most error prone feature/UI problem of the existing interface. I have always missed this option to review the recipient before finalizing the contract. Please do this CCP.

The Tuskers
Posted - 2011.01.04 00:03:00 - [134]

contract don't need changing, the market DOES

market needs to cover the whole universe with filters region, system, high only, high/low, high/low/null, null only.... etc

Posted - 2011.01.04 16:18:00 - [135]

Originally by: EvilSource
contract don't need changing, the market DOES

market needs to cover the whole universe with filters region, system, high only, high/low, high/low/null, null only.... etc

that is by design, not limitation.

the whole economics of eve would collapse with such a change.

you can have access to that tho with delayed data with some site.

Dav Varan
Posted - 2011.01.05 15:35:00 - [136]

Edited by: Dav Varan on 05/01/2011 15:49:57
Originally by: CCP Atlas
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
That said, one minor complaint. Why do charges in guns need to be unloaded at all? To cargo is vastly better than to hangar(though I have to ask about the interaction with cargo size limits - does it overfill the cargo or overflow it?), but I don't see why it needs to happen at all.

If the cargo becomes overloaded with the addition of the charges then you cannot create the contract.

The reason for the 'remove charges' restriction in contracts is of a technical nature since these types of loaded charges are not proper inventory items due to an optimization they cannot be properly included in the contract without first removing them.

As it is a technical issue you are sidestepping why risk punish players for it with pain in the ass cant contract this ship problems.

Check for cargohold overloading before removing charges to the cargohold or more simply dont worry about it at all.

The contract has to be redeemed at a station before the ship is flyable again at which point the launch check will prevent overloaded ships in space.

An assembled Itty 5 is 275,000 m3
It can carry max expanded somewhere in the region of 40,000 m3

As you can see theres no advantage to a player who just want to move goods around to using assembled ships as containers.

So why the overloaded cargohold check ?

Posted - 2011.01.05 19:05:00 - [137]

Edited by: Iraherag on 05/01/2011 19:31:45
Sorting is not working as described in the dev blog - Sorting is per page only and reset when changing to another page.

Scratch that, I just realized you introduced a second way to sort things and that clicking a column to sort the list (the way everyone else in the world does it) is now even more useless than it was before...


Did someone of you even try to use that new interface for a reasonably sane use case like "Find a semi-sensible contract close to your current location"?

You cannot pre-sort the list by location because your precious server cannot handle that - fine.
You have to use the client-sorting to sort by distance but once you change to the second page that client-sorting is reset.

Can't you just make that client-sorting sticky?
It was sticky before, why make it worse?

Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.05 20:49:00 - [138]

love the new contract system!

CCP Atlas

Posted - 2011.01.05 21:06:00 - [139]

A new iteration is up on sisi now and we've added a few features based on feedback on this thread.
  • The new search now covers private contracts as well as public ones.
  • All the members in a corporation will see information about contracts assigned to the corporation on the contracts start page.
  • The top-level item limit in contracts has been increased from 100 to 200.
  • The ignore list maximum length has been increased from 80 to 1000.
  • Charges from weapons that cannot be placed in the ship's cargo hold are now placed in the hangar.
  • Added some l33t filtering options in the TYPES search box for the foolishly brave among you.
    • XXX:typeName where XXX is the name of a group or a category. Example: Ship:Raven. This is a quick way to do the same filtering as you get with the category/group dropdown boxes.
    • typeName|YYY where YYY is the name of a meta or a tech level. Example: Hardener|Faction
    • úberl33t example: module:hardener|faction will search for faction hardeners and only in the module category (skip blueprints)
  • Added a super secret prefs flag for 'thin contracts list'. Add the line contractsSimpleView=1 to your prefs.ini file at your own peril.
  • The UI has been further tweaked.

Locin WeEda
Red Frog Investments
Posted - 2011.01.05 22:29:00 - [140]

I was just checking the new corporate contract search out, CCP Atlas, and I was blown away. This is exactly what I would like to see for the corporate courier contracts. I will need some time to play with it, and see if I can find any bugs or missing features, but my first impression was very good.

Ave Volta
Posted - 2011.01.05 22:43:00 - [141]

Thank you Atlas! We at Red Frog Salute you! Smile

Locin WeEda
Red Frog Investments
Posted - 2011.01.06 00:28:00 - [142]

Some suggestions regarding the courier contract interface for corporations.

When right clicking on a corporate courier contract, make it possible to choose what sort of related contracts you are looking for. When I look for a related contract (e.g. same issuer), I would expect to get a list of all other corporate courier contracts issued by that issuer, not what he has issued as public exchange/auction contracts (I would expect that if I was on searching for exchange/auction contracts though.

Same when I look for related contracts to/from the same solar system/constellation/region, I would expect to get a list of related corporate courier contracts up.

Now, a nice idea would of course be if it was possible to choose if you wanted to see related public, private, corporate or alliance contracts somehow, but the standard choice should be the type of contract you are currently looking at, in my opinion (for us in RF Freight, it would be primarily corporate contracts, but being able to switch to see nearby public contracts would not hurt).

Locin WeEda
Red Frog Investments
Posted - 2011.01.06 14:08:00 - [143]

Is it only the search-interface that is going to change, or am I allowed to throw in some changes I would like for the My contracts tab as well.

Contracts in progress have irritated me for a long time, as you have to ask the client who took a particular contract. It is impossible for the CEO or a director to see who has taken a given courier contract set up to corp, until the contract has been failed or completed. I don't know what the idea behind this was, but I'd like to see who has accepted a contract in progress, without having to ask the client which of my pilots accepted it.
If there are some negative aspects to the whole corp having access to this information (I can't see it, but there may be some that are concerned about this), tie the information to the contract manager role, so that everyone that are contract managers at least can see who has accepted a courier contract issued to the corp.

As for the beta search interface:
We can limit the view to courier contracts starting within a certain number of jumps from our current location, and by the max trip length. Is it possible to add a minimum trip length too?

Sometimes you are looking for contracts that are longer than a certain number of jumps too, not just shorter than a certain number of jumps.

Not sure if others have suggested this already, but with the amount of search possibilities that now exists, would it be possible to save and load common filter-settings, maybe even set up for the corp (like corp fittings), or at least export/import (like overview settings).

This way a corp could set up filters that match various services they provide (high sec, low sec, null-sec, industrial couriers, transport ship couriers, small volume-high value transport, freighter couriers etc).

Contract managers could set up filters that allows them to easier spot contracts that needs to be rejected.

Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
Posted - 2011.01.06 22:27:00 - [144]


The dev blog and dev communication in the thread are so úber.

Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.01.08 16:47:00 - [145]

Very nice! I like all of it!

Also chiming in with the "Can't wait to see an API as well" crowd, and "Uh, oh. It's only for public contracts", personally I'd like to see this for private contracts as well, just because it's so much shinier and new than the current interface =D

Posted - 2011.01.09 12:45:00 - [146]

Client-sorting is sticky again.
Very good!

Posted - 2011.01.11 03:17:00 - [147]

Edited by: Sturmwolke on 11/01/2011 03:18:35

"UN-ignore contract from issuer" option is missing?
It's nowhere to be seen and the ignore contract from issuer seems to be persistent data.

Now, show all (aka no filters) will list all of them regardless.
"Exclude ignored issuers" filter hide them as it should be.

Here's the problem, since you can't view those hidden ones (as per my previous post), it's impossible a huge pain in the ass to find out whom you've ignored - to retract the issuer from your ignore list.

Locin WeEda
Red Frog Investments
Posted - 2011.01.11 06:04:00 - [148]

Sturmwolke, look at the start page of your contract interface. The ignored issuers are there (up to 1000). You can unignore them there.

Posted - 2011.01.11 14:41:00 - [149]

Thanks, it's one of those things which I knew there was a catch somewhere (it was quite a while ago when I messed with the ignore list on TQ) but couldn't for the life pin it down to where or what.
Lo and behold! Ooops .. first tab. Fair enough Embarassed

In retrospect, I think it's a very good example of how convoluted the contract interface is. Twisted Evil I'd say, the intuitive thing would have to have that link present in the same contract search because if you can "ignore", by that token you should be able to retract it on the same page .... instead of another tab.

Paramount Commerce
Posted - 2011.01.17 04:12:00 - [150]

This feature is not included in the release build for 1.1 when will it we released?

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