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Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.12.23 01:38:00 - [1]
 

Why is mining not taxed?

I know this question is going to make me unpopular with a lot of miners, but I think its a valid question, because mission runners and ratters are taxed.

To answer the question of where, it would be at the station, the corp could take its cut at the refinery; now i know this would take a bit of trust, but its better than nothing.

Lazarann
Ideal Machine
Posted - 2010.12.23 01:48:00 - [2]
 

If you refine your ore at a 0.0 player owned outpost, it does get taxed I believe.
Not to mention if you refine at a npc station, you still get taxed a little (based on standings obviously).
If you want a cut of your miners' ore, go build an outpost I guess.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.12.24 05:59:00 - [3]
 

I guess its just odd to me that I have the mechanism to tax my ratters easily and for free, but the miners who make more work for me than the ratters cannot be taxed unless I have 0.0 sov and a 60 billion isk station.

Something just doesn't seem right.

Isthisanalt
Posted - 2010.12.24 09:35:00 - [4]
 

Yeah. ouposts are around the 15bil mark if i recall.

But a tax mechanism could work i guess. Make it so when they refine, a percentage goes into the corp deliveries.

shady trader
Posted - 2010.12.24 12:11:00 - [5]
 

Part of the problem is that you cannot tell if the person is a miner or if they are buying raw ore from the market and refining it. If they are the first it makes sense to tax it at either the raw ore stage or at refining stage.

However if they are the second type, then say placing a 10% tax on what they refine is probably going to wipe out the profit margin of the trader/refiner.

Then you have people recycling modules for the mins, if they brought them of the market as the mins were worth more you have just destroyed there business.

There has been a number of thread on this in the features and Idea's forum but no one has come up with a fair way to do a mining tax.

The only way to tax mining is to do corp mining ops, which is not the best way.

Max Cetera
Capital Researchs Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.24 15:08:00 - [6]
 

Tax the mining itself, every time the miner press the mining laser key, he pays $$$ Laughing

Berikath
Posted - 2010.12.24 15:53:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Sigras
Why is mining not taxed?

I know this question is going to make me unpopular with a lot of miners, but I think its a valid question, because mission runners and ratters are taxed.

To answer the question of where, it would be at the station, the corp could take its cut at the refinery; now i know this would take a bit of trust, but its better than nothing.


Mining makes a (small) fraction of what most anything else does. Unless your corp has a bunch of macro-miners, a better question is why do you really care?

(Yes, there are many things which need to be addressed with mining, industry, and trading... but this is pretty far down on the list IMHO)

Boltorano
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2010.12.24 16:09:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Berikath
Unless your corp has a bunch of macro-miners, a better question is why do you really care?


This exactly. Unless they're mining Arkonor 24/7, why so upset about not getting blood from a stone?

Funesta
Posted - 2010.12.24 17:34:00 - [9]
 

It is taxed, in exactly the same way your salvage/loot from missions is taxed. You get taxed when you sell it at market, or when you sell the refined minerals.

You don't tax items, you tax money. So mission runners get taxed on all their activities, and so do miners. It's just that bounties, mission rewards get taxed immediately, and mission loot, salvage, and ore get taxed when you turn them into money.

Blindingly obvious information is obvious.

The government doesn't want piles of fried circuits or stacks of veldspar. They want cash!

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.12.24 22:52:00 - [10]
 

so, what you guys are telling me is that its the mission runner's responsibility to pay for our POS which we use to manufacture the miner's ore into useful things?

That doesn't seem right to me; if thats the case, what incentive do I ever have to have miners in my corp? I understand that I can make a corp rule to hand over some of their ore, but why is there no in game way to regulate this?

Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
Posted - 2010.12.25 00:19:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Sigras
so, what you guys are telling me is that its the mission runner's responsibility to pay for our POS which we use to manufacture the miner's ore into useful things?

That doesn't seem right to me; if thats the case, what incentive do I ever have to have miners in my corp? I understand that I can make a corp rule to hand over some of their ore, but why is there no in game way to regulate this?


Pardon me while I make a few wild assumptions. You buy ore from your miners, perhaps by contract, and then use the ore to make "useful" things, Then you either use those "useful" things, or sell them for a profit over what you paid for the ore. Perhaps a combination of the two.

Do you pay your miners market rates for their ore? I'm guessing not. If that is the case then there is your tax. If you do pay market rates, ( I doubt that you do) have you considered corporate mining ops where all the ore from the op is donated to the corp? Make attendance at a certain number of these per week or month mandatory.

Now go pilfer from your corporate slaves and prosper.





Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.12.25 06:29:00 - [12]
 

actually wrong on both accounts, Im a Orca/Rorqual pilot with all relevant skills to level 5. I also mine on occasion.

I simply think its a bit inconsistent to have a tax for one of the professions and not for another.

Again, EVE is unfettered capitalism; from a CEO's standpoint, which would you rather have? Mission runners who take no work and make the corp money, or miners who take all kinds of work (especially in 0.0) and make the corp nothing?

Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.25 12:12:00 - [13]
 

Hmm actually that's quite intereting. Create a Corp Refining tax... so that even if ore is bought from the market and refined (let alone mined and refined), the Corp can still take a cut.

Monte Shill
Posted - 2010.12.25 20:24:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Sigras
Again, EVE is unfettered capitalism; from a CEO's standpoint, which would you rather have? Mission runners who take no work and make the corp money, or miners who take all kinds of work (especially in 0.0) and make the corp nothing?

You cannot make anything in EVE without minerals. HOLY SMOKES BATMAN! I THOUGHT SHIPS WERE CREATED WITH PIXIE DUST AND GOOD THOUGHTS! If you belive that miners make the corp nothing, then I know a guy in a red suit giving a great holiday discount today for a bridge in new york. If you remove all the asteroids, all the mission loot, remove the mining skillset along with barges/racial mining frigs and cruisers/strips/mining lasers/, wait 6 months until the mineral stocks start to shrink, and nothing else changes then EVE will be dead within a year because you think that miners are producing nothing for your corp. Miners are the base of the EVE pyramid and hold the rest of the player base up, without someone being a deadhead and AFKing to produce minerals you wouldn't have the twice a year "Grab your chubby boys, its Fishing in a Barrel with a grenade time!" gank contest because 1) You wouldn't have any more ships to blow up eventually and 2) You couldn't blow up a cruiser fast enough in highsec with a fleet of newb frigs armed with civillian guns before CONCORD got you. Give them respect, there really isn't enough profit from mining to tax on that boring profession.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.12.25 21:44:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Sigras on 25/12/2010 21:44:54
well obviously all things in game are made from minerals, but you've clearly missed my point.

If im paying my miners full price for their minerals with no tax then my miners still provide me no advantage because i may as well just buy them from someone else.

I also understand that I can buy from my miners at a discount, my question is, for the last time:

Why is there no automatic way to do this as you do with ratting?

in short, ratters make me isk and cause me very little grief; miners make me no isk and cause me all kinds of grief.

Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2010.12.26 01:39:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Funesta
It is taxed, in exactly the same way your salvage/loot from missions is taxed. You get taxed when you sell it at market, or when you sell the refined minerals.

You don't tax items, you tax money. So mission runners get taxed on all their activities, and so do miners. It's just that bounties, mission rewards get taxed immediately, and mission loot, salvage, and ore get taxed when you turn them into money.

Blindingly obvious information is obvious.

The government doesn't want piles of fried circuits or stacks of veldspar. They want cash!


You don't get corp taxed on selling stuff.

Just letting you know.

Fenren
Minmatar
Bure Astro Photography
Posted - 2010.12.26 10:01:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane


You don't get corp taxed on selling stuff.

Just letting you know.


so the biggest tax dodgers is the traders, and they tend to make the most money...

Samican Nutikor
Posted - 2010.12.26 11:10:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Samican Nutikor on 26/12/2010 11:11:34
Originally by: Sigras
so, what you guys are telling me is that its the mission runner's responsibility to pay for our POS which we use to manufacture the miner's ore into useful things?

That doesn't seem right to me; if thats the case, what incentive do I ever have to have miners in my corp? I understand that I can make a corp rule to hand over some of their ore, but why is there no in game way to regulate this?



Your miners provide your production with minerals. And they can focus on needed mineral types, which you can't do through recycling. It's up to you to devise a working plan on how to "tax" their work. But honestly, even with a 20% corp tax you will make more money running missions than mining - talking about relative safe space, so no ABC ore. So why reduce the lower income even further?

Mukuro Gravedigger
Posted - 2010.12.26 12:00:00 - [19]
 

I will harbor a guess that miners provide a service compared to ratters providing a source of direct income. While the ISK can be used instantly for whatever reason, ore processed into minerals obviously requires further steps to potentially create a profit. Or to view this in another angle, what is a pile of _any_ mineral worth?

Nothing.

Unless there is a buyer that feels that pile of minerals is worth a certain amount based upon other factors and then uses that pile of minerals as a bartering tool to obtain liquid ISK or to manufacture a module or ship or to trade it for something they feel is equivalent value, as a whole, that pile of minerals has no inherit value. Thus taxing nothing equals nothing.

But if you want to tax the operation of mining and thus obtaining minerals, then that is a different scenario. To have the option that automatically "taxes" x amount of Veldspar mined versus y amount of Scordite mined versus z amount of Plagioclase mined would indirectly place a hard cap upon the minerals themselves. And with CCP removing various hard caps from the markets over the years, minerals are now worth what someone is willing to pay for them - not what is hard coded. A free market, yes?

Though I might be wrong here too!

Keta Fraal
Nul and Booleans
Posted - 2010.12.26 16:53:00 - [20]
 

Wait a ****ing minute!

Governments tax. Corporations employ labour.

What is wrong with this picture you guys are painting about Eve's corporate capitalism?

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.12.26 21:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Keta Fraal
Wait a ******* minute!

Governments tax. Corporations employ labour.

What is wrong with this picture you guys are painting about Eve's corporate capitalism?


Well thats kinda where all of this came from; I was wondering if an absolutely true capitalist corp would work in Eve where the tax is 100% etc but the corp members get paid instead of getting taxed . . . the only problem is there is no way to do that with miners

additionally, people keep saying "but the miners provide you with materials which are better than ISK" BULL, they provide me nothing because they keep 100% of the minerals they mine, they provide me with nothing.

Additionally, in 0.0 they expect the corp the haul and refine the stuff. I figure I could make an outpost out here, but its yet another thing our ratters will have to pay for.

Keta Fraal
Nul and Booleans
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:15:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Keta Fraal on 26/12/2010 23:16:19
For a corporation to work as a Capitalist organization the tax on missioning is silly.

The corporation needs to add value to the individual efforts of members.

This could be in the form of:

-Orca/foreman mining and dedicated refiners.
-Longer production chains in profitable production lines.
-Additional security assistance in otherwise risky ventures in 0.0.
-Any team based effort that returns more isk than solo effort.

And the added value transfers to increased income to members in the form of dividends or wage. Otherwise it is better for individuals to go solo and not break the "free market" of capitalism.

On the other hand; corporation taxes are collected if the organization is more of a "club" than a company. There is no incentive to join a corporation where you pay to be a member unless it is merely a social club. In this case you should simply collect standard dues rather than a percentage of player income.

Intar Medris
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2010.12.27 07:56:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Intar Medris on 27/12/2010 07:57:13
Originally by: Sigras
so, what you guys are telling me is that its the mission runner's responsibility to pay for our POS which we use to manufacture the miner's ore into useful things?

That doesn't seem right to me; if thats the case, what incentive do I ever have to have miners in my corp? I understand that I can make a corp rule to hand over some of their ore, but why is there no in game way to regulate this?


By the mins for slightly above regional from your miners. It takes ages for a solo miner to mine the massive amounts of mins you see on the market. So they would appreciate the quick sell, and you save money on your manufacturing. And if they don't want to help this way kick their ass out or blow their precious Hulk up. That is how you tax them if that is the only reason they pay EVE.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.27 12:19:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Sigras
Originally by: Keta Fraal
Wait a ******* minute!

Governments tax. Corporations employ labour.

What is wrong with this picture you guys are painting about Eve's corporate capitalism?


Well thats kinda where all of this came from; I was wondering if an absolutely true capitalist corp would work in Eve where the tax is 100% etc but the corp members get paid instead of getting taxed . . . the only problem is there is no way to do that with miners

additionally, people keep saying "but the miners provide you with materials which are better than ISK" BULL, they provide me nothing because they keep 100% of the minerals they mine, they provide me with nothing.

Additionally, in 0.0 they expect the corp the haul and refine the stuff. I figure I could make an outpost out here, but its yet another thing our ratters will have to pay for.


And what are you giving them?

in 0.0 they expect the corp the haul and refine the stuff

So they are refining at the Corp POS and you are keeping nothing?
They are not mining the ice for the POS?
Giving PI components (another thing that can't be taxed) for the fuel?
Someone is hauling the stuff free and maybe jumping it in high sec too?

Sound strange.

Tayonas
Posted - 2010.12.27 13:26:00 - [25]
 

Just make it so that any corp can set a tax on refining like what happens when you get taxed by whoever owns the station. The minerals can go into a 'corp vault' like a corp hangar. Just dont make it so offices are needed at the station. Whoever is 'authorised' can go collect it and take it back to the corp hangar (or theirs, whatever). It would just be another assets type menu. There is a nice graph or two on how the database has been increased, so this should be an option now.

Sjugar
Posted - 2010.12.27 16:16:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Sjugar on 27/12/2010 16:16:42
If you need to set a mining tax for your corp you're doing it wrong.

Maximising profit for people who run mission or rat or do anomalies is mostly a solo or duo/dualbox effort. Add more people and your ISK/person/hour goes down.

Not so much for mining. Mining benefits greatly from teamefforts. Have dedicated miners in Hulks, Orcas or Rorqual provide mining boosts a few dedicated haulers so the miners can stay in the belt and you profit/person/hour increases.

So basically: provide mining ops, that way your miners will make more then when mining solo and when the haulers brings stuff to the station you can divide the stuff giving everyone from hulks to orcas to haulers and the corp a fair cut. You will still get miners because they make more then when doing it solo.

(search for miningbuddy)

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2010.12.27 18:34:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Sjugar
Edited by: Sjugar on 27/12/2010 16:16:42
If you need to set a mining tax for your corp you're doing it wrong.



^^ this

Many (not all) of the corps i've flown with have been one of the below (or both):

a. (bi)weekly corp ops. Corp takes x% of the mins, people involved split the rest evenly.

b. corp buys at x% Eve-Central price. Miner drops ore/minerals into an audit can, results tallied (bi)weekly, and miners paid.

Deen Wispa
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.12.27 19:42:00 - [28]
 

I understand what OP is saying. He's simply just explaining his side as a CEO. I am also CEO and feel the same way. I make more money off my mission runners than my miners. We do weekly ops but the cut we make is still insignificant relative to the corp's wallet. We even have a buyback program in which few miners ever sell back to us. To add insult to injury, when war comes around, miners are always first to flee whereas the PvEers will stick around for a bit and fight because they have the skills to do so.

To OP- keep it simple and accept it for what it is. CCP game mechanics would make life too hard for you if you wanted to implement something more complex in order to derive revenue from your miners. Just do organized ops, take your cut, and call it day.


Deen Wispa
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.12.27 19:46:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Samican Nutikor
Edited by: Samican Nutikor on 26/12/2010 11:11:34
Originally by: Sigras
so, what you guys are telling me is that its the mission runner's responsibility to pay for our POS which we use to manufacture the miner's ore into useful things?

That doesn't seem right to me; if thats the case, what incentive do I ever have to have miners in my corp? I understand that I can make a corp rule to hand over some of their ore, but why is there no in game way to regulate this?



Your miners provide your production with minerals. And they can focus on needed mineral types, which you can't do through recycling. It's up to you to devise a working plan on how to "tax" their work. But honestly, even with a 20% corp tax you will make more money running missions than mining - talking about relative safe space, so no ABC ore. So why reduce the lower income even further?


Exactly. Which is why I just accept it for what it is if you're doing Empire mining. The corp only makes real money when we do WH raiding. Think of WH ops raiding as the L4 equivalent of mission running. You log into the corp wallet to see you got a nice fat tax because your PvEers is running a high quality L4 :)

Gleanerman
Posted - 2010.12.27 19:52:00 - [30]
 

hmm why should it be taxed?


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