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K'hanesh Lor'al
Amarr
The Golden Knights
Posted - 2010.12.21 22:18:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: K''hanesh Lor''al on 21/12/2010 22:20:01
Hey all, while becoming infatuated with Sleeper lore after reading all the posts trying to figure out the sleeper/jove connection, I began re-reading some chronicals, specifically the "Black Mountain" series. The Protagonist is working for the Sisters, trying to find the Book of Emptiness, a Jove artifact that supposedly has fallen to the Sansha. The antagonist is working for the SCT, supposedly trying to find the same artifact, to destroy it. Also, one of the newest chronicals, "The Book of Emptiness" details an Amarrian scientist searching for it.

Now I know there have been a LOT of theories spinning around regarding the upcoming incursions, who the Sansha are working with/against, and if there is a Jove "civil war" brewing.

Well, given the relations stated above, I think some of the communities more skilled loremeisters may want to scour the Black Mountain Chrons for some info.

My personal theory, is we now have some proof of a schism in the Jove - I think the SCT has turned against the Jove, and all those years of "education" was actually the brainwashing of people to add to the True Sansha. Kuveki himself may be behind the SCT.

Since I'm just a beginning "Loremeister" myself, your comments, thoughts, and criticisms are appretiated.Wink

-Khan out

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2010.12.21 22:43:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: K'hanesh Lor'al

My personal theory, is we now have some proof of a schism in the Jove - I think the SCT has turned against the Jove, and all those years of "education" was actually the brainwashing of people to add to the True Sansha. Kuveki himself may be behind the SCT.

Consider this: Kuvakei was an industrial tycoon before becoming a crazy separatist... but nobody has ever asked where he got his education.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.22 02:25:00 - [3]
 


It is incredibly doubtful that the SCT are in anyway in league with Sansha's Nation. They are existentialists which the antithesis of Kuvakei Nihilism.


Rainbow Lasers
Posted - 2010.12.22 03:11:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Rainbow Lasers on 22/12/2010 03:17:25
Edited by: Rainbow Lasers on 22/12/2010 03:13:44
Unless the SCT created the mind controll programming and used it to create 'sansha K...'

What is Sanshas nation dident create mind controll, but mearly Sansha 'invented' it via blueprints already inside his mind.
Perhaps the reason he was so successfull with enhanceing weapons is though Jove tech that is already in his mind.

He is not inventing, mearly reverse engineering tech that is already in his mind.

-=-
Could also be a reason for the amarr empire to not like sanshas nation and attack it alongside the other empires, as during the time when the four empires war dec'ed sanshas nation, amarr was the only one without a real 'motive'

Amarr and Jove relations are not the most friendly, and the Amarr proberly resent the fact they got there ass handed to them(i would to)
And surely killing of the Joves 'Pets' would be a good way to do this?

Even if the jove pets are only pets of half of the jove.


-=-
Originally by: Wyke Mossari

It is incredibly doubtful that the SCT are in anyway in league with Sansha's Nation. They are existentialists which the antithesis of Kuvakei Nihilism.



Well if i was the SCT and i created Sanshas Nation id pretend to have the totally opposit ideology to them aswell.
the SCT are powerhungry, all the people who go though its schools end up in powerfull positions.
Perhaps they are all mind controlled O_O

And also perhaps the reason for the very low and quite random(if i remember correctly) selection of people to take the school program is based on compatibility for the mind controll systems :P

Quote:
SCT Chron

Each kitz maintains a school for educating their members in the scholarly or scientific fields. At first, all the students were children of SCT members, but a few decades ago the Society started admitting, each year, a small number of children from 'outside,' even non-Jovian ones. The applicants are chosen by the Society and their choices seem to many to be almost random, because there is no visible pattern as to who gets in: neither race, gender, social standing, nor even talent and intelligence by themselves seem to play instrumental roles. Many wealthy parents have tried to increase their child’s chances by donating large sums of money to the SCT, but statistics have shown that this has little or no effect.

In any case, most people agree that the education the children receive within the Society’s walls is first-class and every graduate is a sought-after employee anywhere he or she goes. An astonishing proportion of SCT graduates reach a prominent position later in life, becoming presidents of multi-stellar corporations or governmental ministers. Little wonder, then, that people regard the SCT schools as breeding grounds for world leaders.


But to be fair, any story can be made up and argued, which is what i love about eve fiction. so many explanations :)

K'hanesh Lor'al
Amarr
The Golden Knights
Posted - 2010.12.22 16:37:00 - [5]
 

I just think it's a little strange that CCP puts out a Chron entitled "The Book of Emptiness," about a device two people where searching for (employed by the Sisters and the SCT respectivly) in their LARGEST chronicle series besides the Novels.

The device just happens to be "in danger of falling into Sansha's Nation's hands..." and now CCP releases "The Book of Emptiness" 2 weeks before they are "talking a break from the Chronicles" and 4 weeks before incursion.

CCP DropBear said something in the long Sleeper v. Rogue Drones thread about doing everything for a reason, and that everything is connected, we just have to find the clues.

I'm looking big picture here... has anyone investigated any of the systems mentioned inBlack Mountain Chrons to see if there is any clues to why the Sansha are/are not working with the Jove?

Maybe I'm off my rocker, but I think there is something to all this. I will have to check myself this weekend.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.12.22 16:44:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: K'hanesh Lor'al
I just think it's a little strange that CCP puts out a Chron entitled "The Book of Emptiness," about a device two people where searching for (employed by the Sisters and the SCT respectivly) in their LARGEST chronicle series besides the Novels.

The device just happens to be "in danger of falling into Sansha's Nation's hands..." and now CCP releases "The Book of Emptiness" 2 weeks before they are "talking a break from the Chronicles" and 4 weeks before incursion.

CCP DropBear said something in the long Sleeper v. Rogue Drones thread about doing everything for a reason, and that everything is connected, we just have to find the clues.

I'm looking big picture here... has anyone investigated any of the systems mentioned inBlack Mountain Chrons to see if there is any clues to why the Sansha are/are not working with the Jove?

Maybe I'm off my rocker, but I think there is something to all this. I will have to check myself this weekend.


Agreed. This is definitely a link between disparate elements of the fiction and a clear focus in the present storyline.

Apathetic Murderer
Posted - 2010.12.22 16:53:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Apathetic Murderer on 22/12/2010 16:56:07
Originally by: Emperor Cheney


Agreed. This is definitely a link between disparate elements of the fiction and a clear focus in the present storyline.


Ouch, no need for sarcasm.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.12.22 17:14:00 - [8]
 

?

I'm being serious.

I. . .what?

K'hanesh Lor'al
Amarr
The Golden Knights
Posted - 2010.12.22 17:23:00 - [9]
 

My apologies, Apathetic Murderer is my alt, and I'm still learning to use these forums.

My apolgies also for thinking you were being sarcastic *looks sheepish*

I just was kinda inspired by all 29 pages of the Sleepers v. Rogue drones stuff, and want to try to add my helping hand.

Now to see if I can actually find some in-game stuff that back up these odd connections. Any one else care to weigh in?

Again, my apologies for misunderstanding.

-Khan

K'hanesh Lor'al
Amarr
The Golden Knights
Posted - 2010.12.22 17:56:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: K''hanesh Lor''al on 22/12/2010 17:57:07
Hey all... read this... from the chronicle The Black Mountain: Hyperconsciousness

"Despite its attempts in recent times to project the image of a network of high-class academic establishments for New Eden's elite, the Society of Conscious Thought remains first and foremost a research institute with a vigorous interest in the technical advancement of society. This is no secret; after all, the Jove are an inquisitive lot, and in the protective isolation of the Society's enclaves, called kitzes, there's no telling what new developments may be brewing.

That's not to say the Society has had free rein in their choice of projects. A checkered past, which includes political machinations and some rather dubious human experimentation, nearly spelled the Society's end. A turning point came when an internal investigation brought to light their association with Sansha's Nation. It was common knowledge that Sansha Kuvakei combined Jovian capsule technology with illegally modified brain implants in order to start off his notorious army of sycophants, but Empire attempts to replicate his research have always been unsuccessful, and it had long been postulated that the Jovians may have been one of the shadowy forces who secretly supported Kuvakei, supplying him with clandestine technologies in order to see what he could make of it. This was part and parcel with the Society's brash approach to technological advancement, and after an investigation revealed discrepancies in the research logs of certain kitzes that seemed to implicate them as having worked with the Sansha, the Society's funding, power and autonomy were severely curtailed, and the kitzes themselves vanished without a trace. It is, of course, not known whether the retributive actions against the kitzes truly were imparted for their corroboration with the Sansha or merely for their inability to properly hide it."

Looks like I really am on to something here...


Apathetic Murderer
Posted - 2010.12.22 18:37:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Apathetic Murderer on 22/12/2010 18:38:14
Originally by: Wyke Mossari

It is incredibly doubtful that the SCT are in anyway in league with Sansha's Nation. They are existentialists which the antithesis of Kuvakei Nihilism.




Wyke, read my above post. I think you are incorrect here. (posted by K'haesh... for some stupid reason it keeps defaulting to this toon.)

K'hanesh Lor'al
Amarr
The Golden Knights
Posted - 2010.12.22 19:40:00 - [12]
 

Also fom Black mountain: A Pleasant Surprise


"Draea's team was convinced they'd thrown off any trails, and contacted the Society for further flight instructions. They received a bookmark labeled "hidden kitz", along with two pieces of coding information that they added to data chips they'd picked up along the way.


The bookmark took them to an ancient stargate that looked like it was falling to pieces. There was no detectable activity on any part of the gate, and after trying several times to establish basic contact Krezek threw up his hands in disgust.


"Have you tried the password?" Draea said. She was sitting at the controls on the other side of the bridge, running last-minute checks on their weapon systems in case the gate flung them anywhere interesting.


"There's no point in trying the password unless I can get a channel to the gate."


Hidden SCT Kitz? I NEED to find this system and go scanning, lol

K'hanesh Lor'al
Amarr
The Golden Knights
Posted - 2010.12.22 19:55:00 - [13]
 

Now another connection has popped up as well...

Hona, who is main character in the Black mountain series, also has an entire chronicle devoted to her, "Hona is 3"

"The call included verified contact details, which was normal, but also single-use encryption keys for their positions within the Angel hierarchy, which was rather out of the ordinary. I ran those and they all checked out. The group captain, a woman called Hona, was member of a special operations squad within a little-known branch of the rather extensive Angel hierarchy."

At the end of this chron, the narrator is taken to visit Hona in Angel Space, at a strange rock formation in the middle of nowhere.

Now we have 2 locations, in Angel space, of referenced "hidden" places, with people connected. And Angel space used to be Jove space.

Follow me here....

In black mountain, it was Angels working with the Sisters against the SCT and (unverifiably) Sansha.

I think this is additional proof that there is a Jove civil war happening. The SCT is working with or being controlled by Sansha, and this is freaking the Jove out. So much that they are manipulating everyone to help against the SCT.

Also, in the End of the World Chrons, the Group helping the Blood Radiers to find Jamyl's Weapon was ALSO the SCT...

Aeo IV
Amarr
Xomic OmniCorporation
Posted - 2010.12.23 02:08:00 - [14]
 

The Book of Emptiness is obviously a medusa weapon. Given to each civilization by a group of Aliens intending to destroy/influence the second rise of humanity after they closed the EVE wormhole.

K'hanesh Lor'al
Amarr
The Golden Knights
Posted - 2010.12.23 17:30:00 - [15]
 

I'm thinking I will need to scan down Ammatar and Angel space this weekend, to try to find that "hidden" kitz, if it even exists. It will be interesting to see if it is actually an in game site, or just fiction.

Veriasse Valence
Gallente
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2010.12.23 18:21:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: K'hanesh Lor'al
I'm thinking I will need to scan down Ammatar and Angel space this weekend, to try to find that "hidden" kitz, if it even exists. It will be interesting to see if it is actually an in game site, or just fiction.


Not wanting to burst your bubble, but dont get your hopes up. The vast majority of things referenced in chronicles have no counterpart in game. That is something that was discussed in the devblog on chronicles, the desire to better integrate characters and places into the actual game world.

Dont let that stop you however! I love the storyline and all the work the eve fiction crew does.

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.12.23 21:12:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Myxx on 23/12/2010 21:13:00
something i want to point out, is if this is a jovian creation.. the name of it might be very much telling.

Book of Emptiness.

Look at the name of every other jovian creation and how it relates to what the name is applied to.

The book has nothing in it.

from the wiki page on mind control..
Quote:
Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated"


using the same deduction from everything else we've been looking at, i am doubtful that there is a single word in the actual book and it is merely a tool. a tool that the jove no longer wish to have exist.

it doesnt hold any secrets. why would it when the jove could use super uber technology to store and secure it?

K'hanesh Lor'al
Amarr
The Golden Knights
Posted - 2010.12.23 21:45:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Myxx

it doesnt hold any secrets. why would it when the jove could use super uber technology to store and secure it?



Myxx, they did store it and secure, it was stolen. And it's not a book.

Please read http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=19-11-07b

THat's my whole poit... the Black Mountain Chrons are a MOUNTAIN of info on this device

It details how the SCT has most likely been working with or infiltrated by the Sansha.

THat's why I think there is something to do with the book and Incursion.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.23 23:39:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 25/12/2010 10:00:55
Originally by: K'hanesh Lor'al

It details how the SCT has most likely been working with or infiltrated by the Sansha.



No. Hyperconsciousness is different to Sansha's single consciousness.

The two faction involved in these events are The Society of Conscious Thought and The Sactuary Corp, both organisations have (or had) schisms within them.

Look up the definition of polymelia then reread Polymelia and Black Mountain. Consider what limb is a metaphor for.

Pay particular attention too these sentences: after an investigation revealed discrepancies in the research logs of certain kitzes that seemed to implicate them as having worked with the Sansha, the Society's funding, power and autonomy were severely curtailed, and the kitzes themselves vanished without a trace. It is, of course, not known whether the retributive actions against the kitzes truly were imparted for their corroboration with the Sansha or merely for their inability to properly hide it.

The could have defected, but the strong implication is that those Kitzes where eradicated by the SCT's own investigators.

(The Book of Emptyness) would give the Sanctuary an opportunity to further its agenda without sharing too much with the other blocs and There is a counter-revolution within the Sanctuary, a force of individuals who are against this secret development.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.25 09:56:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari

It is incredibly doubtful that the SCT are in anyway in league with Sansha's Nation. They are existentialists which the antithesis of Kuvakei Nihilism.



To expand on this slightly.

An existentialist can be summed up with the phrase, I think therefore I am, that thinking alone is meaningful enough reason for existence. A Nihilist with the phrase, Reality/Life has no meaning.

Also Kuvakei & True Slaves are analogues/renditions of Nietzsche and Ubermensch.

K'hanesh Lor'al
Amarr
The Golden Knights
Posted - 2010.12.28 21:56:00 - [21]
 

Hey all, just thought i'd mention...

THe final chron "Book of Emptiness" mentions "The Black Mountain" at the very end.

Is anyone one else seeing these connections besides me? I mean, Incursion is coming up, and with all the referances I've mentioned above, I REALLY think there is something going on here. Maybee not In-game (although I haven't gotten around to checking yet), but I definitly think there will be more to the Book of Emptiness and the Sansha.

Well, I suppose that's it, I may post a new thread if I find anything. But It would still be interesting to hear others' opinions.

-Khan out.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.12.29 02:21:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: K'hanesh Lor'al
Hey all, just thought i'd mention...

THe final chron "Book of Emptiness" mentions "The Black Mountain" at the very end.

Is anyone one else seeing these connections besides me? I mean, Incursion is coming up, and with all the referances I've mentioned above, I REALLY think there is something going on here. Maybee not In-game (although I haven't gotten around to checking yet), but I definitly think there will be more to the Book of Emptiness and the Sansha.

Well, I suppose that's it, I may post a new thread if I find anything. But It would still be interesting to hear others' opinions.

-Khan out.

The mountain is the enemy of the sea.

Alana Kel
Posted - 2010.12.30 06:03:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: K'hanesh Lor'al
Hey all, just thought i'd mention...

THe final chron "Book of Emptiness" mentions "The Black Mountain" at the very end.

Is anyone one else seeing these connections besides me? I mean, Incursion is coming up, and with all the referances I've mentioned above, I REALLY think there is something going on here. Maybee not In-game (although I haven't gotten around to checking yet), but I definitly think there will be more to the Book of Emptiness and the Sansha.

Well, I suppose that's it, I may post a new thread if I find anything. But It would still be interesting to hear others' opinions.

-Khan out.

You have obviously never read Musashi. Wink It may not make sense at first.

K'hanesh Lor'al
Amarr
The Golden Knights
Posted - 2010.12.30 17:06:00 - [24]
 

Was there a point to your seemingly random link?

Actually, the Book of Five Rings is on my shelf. However, I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to connect, except possibly the concept of "no-mind"

It's one thing to make an overreaching assumption about the game, entirely another when it is regarding someone else.

Anyway, it doesn't seem like this theory is getting much traction. Oh well.

Alana Kel
Posted - 2010.12.31 08:04:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: K'hanesh Lor'al
Was there a point to your seemingly random link?

Yes indeed. :)

Quote:
Actually, the Book of Five Rings is on my shelf. However, I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to connect, except possibly the concept of "no-mind"

That is exactly what I was getting at. The best window we have into what the SCT is trying to accomplish is the writings of CCP Abraxas, most notably Black Mountain.

The concepts of Hyperconsciousness are heavily rooted in - at least from my perspective - in the concepts of Zen Buddhism, and specifically in the concept of "no-mind", but by extension the concept of emptiness.

Quote:
It's one thing to make an overreaching assumption about the game, entirely another when it is regarding someone else.

I was being facetious, and I apologize. It's just how I am, and I meant no offense.

Quote:
Anyway, it doesn't seem like this theory is getting much traction. Oh well.

On the contrary, I think you have it. There is more to it though. If you break it down further, there is a conflict, but not one specifically centered around the Jove. The Jove are but one Empire, just as the Society is but one independent faction. There are individuals who manipulate these organizations, and there are those who are manipulated.

Just as you say we now have evidence that there is a split with the Jove, we can also say that we have evidence that the Society is not working alone. On the other hand, we have incontrovertible evidence that the Jove are not a lone entity; they are but one of five Empires that make up CONCORD.

So, again; I think you have it. I simply believe that perhaps all the implications are not fully understood.

Quote:
It may not make sense at first. The complexities of life's story run so deep that it may take some time to understand. Some time indeed. Yet I tell you now that time will make the truth of these words shine ever brighter, because that is what I made them to do.

- Unknown

Faolan Fortune
Posted - 2011.01.02 19:19:00 - [26]
 

Hmm, not sure where to start but these are my thoughts on the subject.

Also I'm reading Black Moutain now, after reading The Burning Life which has a lot to do with this subject matter.

Specifically it's made clear in the book that Sansha has this Jovian technology of mind control.

Also it's worth noting from this chronicle.

Quote:
Does the name Book of Emptiness tell you anything?"

"Not really. Sounds Amarrian, but that's about it."

"It was. Supposedly a lost holy book, one that would bring immediate ascension to the reader. It is now the chosen codename for a machine that we're after. Set at low power it has the capacity to heal some mild psychological issues. On high, it has the power to brainwash people."


The Book of Emptiness is an actual book, as seen in the last two chronicles and the Book of Emptiness is also the codename for the Jovian technology.

Another thing that has been on my mind a lot, is this dual nature of the Jovians, and the chronicle about the Sefrim

Basically what eats at me is that the Sefrim seem to be the Jovians, having come from Heaven. Yet unlike the Jovians we know of, they're not at all subtle and seemed very content in their role as angels from God. They seem to be the whole reason for the Amarr empire in the first place.

The Sefrim came to Amarr from the Heaven constellation over 6000 years a go. This at the same time as the first Jovian Empire in Heaven too. It's also interesting to note that in Amarr space there are Takmahl relics, the Takmahl being masters of cybernetics and bio-engineering.

So what am I getting at? I'm speculating that the Jove and Takmahl existed in union with each other, much like how the Gallente Federation is now. Either the Jove or the Takmahl had very different ideologies, and the first Jove Empire dissolved because of this.
The Takmahl originally lived in Heaven, with the Jove but relocated to Amarr space, they took advantage of Amarr, using their own religion to manipulate them.
For what purpose? I'm not entirely sure yet.

But doesn' this all strike you as a very SOCT type of attitude? To manipulate, to gain power. Like I said earlier the Takmahl were masters cybernetics and bio-engineering, just like the Jove, the SOCT, just like Sansha's Nation.

Okay, I went waaay off topic, but what if the Takmahl, SOCT and Sasnha's Nation were all some part of a war that has been thousands of years in the making, to get rid of the Jove and the seeds they have created (Capsuleers being one of those seeds).

I'm also thinking that because the SOCT wanted to destroy this technology, Sansha's Nation are no longer under their control.

Don't even get me started on the other ancient races, Enheduanni, Anoikis space and this whole mess of a history that I'm pretty sure will make my head explode.

/Crazy ramblings

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2011.01.02 20:10:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Alexeph Stoekai on 02/01/2011 20:52:12

Originally by: Faolan Fortune

So what am I getting at? I'm speculating that the Jove and Takmahl existed in union with each other, much like how the Gallente Federation is now. Either the Jove or the Takmahl had very different ideologies, and the first Jove Empire dissolved because of this.
The Takmahl originally lived in Heaven, with the Jove but relocated to Amarr space, they took advantage of Amarr, using their own religion to manipulate them.
For what purpose? I'm not entirely sure yet.

The Takmahl are probably the youngest of the lost civilizations. They were a part of the Amarr Empire but were exiled - presumably shortly after the Amarr started colonizing space - and settled in what is now the Araz constellation where they eventually perished. They were no more contemporary with the Jovians than the rest of Amarr.

Worth noting though that the Khanid are also supposed to be long-standing experts at cybernetics and related biomechanics. I'd say they are far more likely to have a link to the Takmahl.


 

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