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Megatfx
Posted - 2010.12.21 11:08:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Megatfx on 21/12/2010 11:22:36
Edited by: Megatfx on 21/12/2010 11:19:25
I'm a pretty new character, been leveling up skills for nearly a month. I was extremely lucky with learning skills, got to get my 1.6 mill 100% training bonus, got a nice refund of nearly 400k SP's for learning skills, and now I'm at Cybernetics V with +5 implants to maximize my required skills.

I've got a pretty good training plan setup, and I've remapped accordingly, but the sheer amount of core skills needed to be leveled up is extremely overwhelming for a new character. I'd like to propose a consolidation of CORE skills for newer players. I don't know or care how they would refund older players, probably something similar to the SP refund from learning skills.

Skills like "Spaceship Command" and "Evasive Manuevering", or "Energy Emission Systems" and "Energy Management", or "Rapid Firing" and "Sharpshooter", consolidate ALL of the Weapon Specializations into a single skill, then continue to have the T2 variants of "Small Autocannon Specialization", Medium Autocannon specialization, or several of the drone skills.

To get into Medium Autocannon Specialization, if I chose to specialize into getting into a cruiser right away, and skip as much time in frigates as possible, I have to level up Small Autocannon Specialization. Why? Just silly to me.

Let's be serious, a 6 month specialization for a newer player to come out in a T2 Battlecruiser (Hurricane), and to truly compete with a 5 year player is just ludicrous.

Blah blah blah, it's about ship fittings blah blah blah, when all things are equal fitting wise, it shouldn't take several months of training to be effective against another opponent whereas 90% of the skills trained are core skills.

I just think core skill consolidation would be good for the game, would be an easier adjustment for newer players like myself and remove that overwhelming feeling of "Holy **** I just got into the game and I have to spread my training time properly over 30+ skills, get a proper remap, level up cybernetics, earn money, spam missions for reputation, train for months to properly fly a Battlecruiser.

All these QQ posts about the game dying, the problem is older players seem to be getting bored, and newer players are just getting overwhelmed too much to stay past the initial 2 week period. A good MMO needs to find a way to entice newer players into the game and not feel overwhelmed by the head start older players have.

Make a list of "Core" skills you'd like to see consolidated, I mentioned a few of my own above, I want to see what core skills you wish would have been consolidated when you first started with the game to help you get into the heated action in the ship you wanted to fly in ASAP..

Logical Chaos
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.12.21 11:20:00 - [2]
 

If this is just a troll by someone who did not like the Learning Skill Removal: Get out.

If this is not: No. Just no.

Megatfx
Posted - 2010.12.21 11:25:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Megatfx on 21/12/2010 11:28:02
Edited by: Megatfx on 21/12/2010 11:26:27
This is not a troll. I'm giving an honest opinion as a new player to this game. Skill consolidation to get newer players into the game quicker should be done. The learning skill removal was a step in the right direction, consolidating skills should be the next logical step.

Spending 2 months to level learning skills to 5/4 or much longer for 5/5, was just plain ****ing ******ed, and CCP knew it, which is why they are gone.

Can you elaborate on your "No, just no" without giving an elitist "Well I spent such and such time leveling those skills so you should too, wah, QQ" reply? Probably not.

This would be good for players who would like to start leveling alts on separate accounts as well.

My Postman
Posted - 2010.12.21 12:36:00 - [4]
 

I knew it was coming, and here it is, one week after removal of the learning skills.

+1 for the OP

Learning skills are gone.
Now lets start removing the remaining 397.

There are really, really rude words now in my mind.....

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2010.12.21 12:46:00 - [5]
 

Use the certificates to guide your training--they can be very helpful for a new player, especially when it comes to figuring out which fitting skills will allow you to be capable in different ship types. Then, once you've been in-game a little longer, and know where you can depart from the certificates, you can do so.

TLDR: Use the certificates until you learn more about the game...

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.21 14:43:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 21/12/2010 14:47:43
Originally by: Megatfx
Let's be serious, a 6 month specialization for a newer player to come out in a T2 Battlecruiser (Hurricane), and to truly compete with a 5 year player is just ludicrous.
Not really, no.
Quote:
it shouldn't take several months of training to be effective against another opponent whereas 90% of the skills trained are core skills.
Why not? It only means that the next ship will only take 1 month — it means you "catch up" (LMAO) faster already.

Btw, your proposal makes the situation you're experiencing worse because it removes the distinction between SP — you're advocating a system where More SP = better, when the current system doesn't work like that. Right now, more SP = more SP, and nothing else. You're asking them to remove the ability to "catch up" (LMAO) by training a fsckload of lvl IVs when those silly old timers have wasted all their SP on a few lvl V:s. Instead, you want to see a system where this kind of "breadth of bonus" approach is no longer possible, meaning you will never be able to "catch up" (LMAO) by being clever.

Winterjack
Posted - 2010.12.21 15:23:00 - [7]
 

We could make it all into one skill with 200 levels.

Call it "EVE playing". At level 1 you're a noob, at level 200 you're uberleetpro.

-- Seriously: no.

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2010.12.21 17:52:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Btw, your proposal makes the situation you're experiencing worse because it removes the distinction between SP — you're advocating a system where More SP = better, when the current system doesn't work like that. Right now, more SP = more SP

There is your why.

all \o/ "why"!

Hooligan Tool
Awww Diddums..
Posted - 2010.12.21 18:51:00 - [9]
 

Skills I would want consolidated: None.

With the Learning skills gone and the upgraded attributes in their place, new characters are training faster than ever. The sheer number of skills is one of the things that makes EVE unique. And the prerequisites are there to help make sure that new players have some experience playing with smaller, less expensive ships and modules before jumping into bigger stuff that costs more to lose.

Pretty much everywhere in EVE, you have choices. Those choices have consequences. You can choose to train the minimum prerequisites and get into bigger ships as quickly as possible. The consequence of this would likely be the loss of the shiny new big ship. Or, you could have some core/support skills in your training plan along with the main ship/weapon/module skills. It'll take you longer to get there, but you'll be better prepared and more capable when you do. Once again, these choices and their consequences help to make EVE unique.

Anyway ... why do you think you need to compete right away against a pilot who's been around for five years?

Barakkus
Posted - 2010.12.21 20:30:00 - [10]
 

I think we should consolidate eve into 3 skills that always train, each level it switches to the next one automatically.

Less work for CCP in the long run I think.

Megatfx
Posted - 2010.12.21 20:43:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Megatfx on 21/12/2010 20:44:22
Originally by: Hooligan Tool
Skills I would want consolidated: None.

With the Learning skills gone and the upgraded attributes in their place, new characters are training faster than ever. The sheer number of skills is one of the things that makes EVE unique. And the prerequisites are there to help make sure that new players have some experience playing with smaller, less expensive ships and modules before jumping into bigger stuff that costs more to lose.

Pretty much everywhere in EVE, you have choices. Those choices have consequences. You can choose to train the minimum prerequisites and get into bigger ships as quickly as possible. The consequence of this would likely be the loss of the shiny new big ship. Or, you could have some core/support skills in your training plan along with the main ship/weapon/module skills. It'll take you longer to get there, but you'll be better prepared and more capable when you do. Once again, these choices and their consequences help to make EVE unique.

Anyway ... why do you think you need to compete right away against a pilot who's been around for five years?


I wasn't asking to jump into the game and a week later be able to combat a 5 year veteran pilot. I'm asking for the simple consolidation of similar CORE skills. Not just any 2 random skills. I'm talking about basic stuff that would help a newer player be able to jump into a specialization he wants instead of tediously training for 6 months a wide variety of skills, some he might have missed as being important to the type of ship he's aiming for. The older players will always have the benefit of having more SP's in a variety of things that newer players won't, will be able to fit their ships for more situations, and be able to fly a wide range of ships.

A game with 200 different skills is like I said a bit overwhelming, and to be optimal in even a frigate you have to train multiple skills that essentially do the same thing. I am suggesting a consolidation of minor core skills and not more than 2 at a time. Right now it just looks like a cluster **** of skills you have to train before you can fly anything really efficiently.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2010.12.21 20:59:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Mr LaForge on 21/12/2010 20:59:28
Do you need a hug? Show me on the chart where the skills touched you.

In all seriousness. The skills are there for a reason. Eve is a game of choices and time management. There is a difference between sitting in a ship and flying a ship in Eve. Sitting in a ship implies you have met the prereqs to activate the ship. Flying a ship refers to you having the skills to effectively use and fit the ship and the ability to maximize its efficiency.

I can sit in almost all of the 4 races sub-cap ships. I can only fly a fraction of them. Its called specialization and getting the support skills you need.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.21 21:40:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Megatfx
I'm talking about basic stuff that would help a newer player be able to jump into a specialization he wants instead of tediously training for 6 months a wide variety of skills, some he might have missed as being important to the type of ship he's aiming for.
And thus you've solved your own problem: jumping into a specialization does not require a "wide variety of skills" — it's about pushing a couple of key skills very far…. Again: whether you know it right now or not, you're advocating a system that makes your perceived problem worse: by removing the ability to "out-breadth" specialist builds and the ability to out-specialise broad builds. This means that new players will have no method at their disposal to put together something that will beat older players.
Quote:
A game with 200 different skills is like I said a bit overwhelming, and to be optimal in even a frigate you have to train multiple skills that essentially do the same thing.
Funnily enough, there are no skills that essentially do the same thing (although, in saying so, you do illustrate that new players might have some problems sorting the skills from each other), and finding out what skills you need is very very simple. Moreover, the core skills in the game have roughly zero to do with efficiency — they are there to make you "passable", nothing more. If you want to move on from that, you have to go into specialised skills that won't fit into your neat categories anyway.

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2010.12.21 22:26:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Funnily enough, there are no skills that essentially do the same thing (although, in saying so, you do illustrate that new players might have some problems sorting the skills from each other), and finding out what skills you need is very very simple. Moreover, the core skills in the game have roughly zero to do with efficiency — they are there to make you "passable", nothing more. If you want to move on from that, you have to go into specialised skills that won't fit into your neat categories anyway.

I like quoting Tippia ... truth on truth being typed here.

The only skills I can think of that do "essentially" the same are skills like energy sys op and energy management. Both effectively increase your cap per second in any ship ... but in a different way and their individual effects are more widespread like energy management for longer possible warps...

There are only two things I want to change in the skill system now. Give every single skill some function other than being a prereq or unlock ... and tactical shield manipulation. As a rank WAY TOO MUCH skill for a silly functionality it's just fits in with my first remaining change of the skill system.

... so yeah, only one thing I want to change about the skill system now.

RavenPaine
Posted - 2010.12.21 22:52:00 - [15]
 



I will try and address a few things in order of your paragraphs/post.

1. Congrats on the sp reimbursement. Many of the long time players got much more than that, and the payoff seams in line with, the time they put in to earn it.

2. Core skills are relevent to: What you want to do. They aren't a requirement for many of the careers in EVE. They are optional to train or not to train. Same as guns or missiles, shield or armor, miner or trader, etc. etc.

3.Every skill you named off there has a totaly different effect. They shouldn't even be listed in the same paragraph.

4. Why ? Because Medium T2 autocannons are pretty lethal. You have to earn them. Most dads wont be buying an AK47 for their 10 year olds this Christmas, they will start with a BB Gun.

5. Look at your statement from the reverse point of view. What would be ludicrous is to have payed/played for 5 years, and have a 6 month old player have the same skills.

6. See bullit #5 with this sidenote. A young player can be effective against a much older player.

7. Every other player had to train and do those things. Most of them never had the benefit of a remap though... Your already getting benefits they never had, with remaps and learnings removed/improved. And if you think 30 skills at lvl 3/4 is overwhelming... this might not be the game for you.

8. This is not a good MMO, I'ts a GREAT MMO. It's not dying at all. World economy is at record lows and you can still find 100,000 players here every day. CCP is constantly upgrading and changing the dynamics and opportunities within the game.

9. I don't want any skills consolidated, and I never want to think that a 3 to 6 month old player can have the same skills as I do. The "old" players have earned everything they have, and they deserve to be better because of that. When you get there, you will feel the same way.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.12.22 00:12:00 - [16]
 

Guys, you should train up Troll Spotting to V. Put some of that learning SP in there.

Garheed
Posted - 2010.12.22 00:13:00 - [17]
 

This is a terrible proposal and a terrible idea. As you continue playing the game, you'll soon recognize that Eve needs MORE skills, not fewer- however counterintuitive that may appear to you now.

Hang in there and stick with it!

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.12.22 11:42:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Funnily enough, there are no skills that essentially do the same thing (although, in saying so, you do illustrate that new players might have some problems sorting the skills from each other),

*cough*
Targeting / Multitasking
Mass Production / Advanced Mass Production
Corporation Management / Megacorp Management / Empire Control / Sovereignty
Gunnery / Rapid Firing
Refining / Refinery Efficiency
etc.

BrundleMeth
Caldari
Temporal Mechanics
Posted - 2010.12.22 20:40:00 - [19]
 

Idiotic.

I have 4 accounts and everyone of them has all Core Skills to Level 5. I took the time it would take and got it done. (Also Thermodynamics to Level 5 is a must IMO)...

IoWalker
Posted - 2010.12.22 22:01:00 - [20]
 

LMFAO@THIS Very Happy

2nd poster in this thread said it best.


oh, IB4 all the crazy time/skill formulas start flying and this thread goes to 30pgs.

Clementina
The Scope
Posted - 2010.12.23 04:43:00 - [21]
 

Excluding Forum trolling alts who need no skills, the only skills that every player needs regardless of their playstyle are Contracting and Trade. If someone is industrial, they will not need Sharpshooter 5, if someone is Pure PvP, they will not need Mining, if someone only uses missiles, they will not need Large Projectile Turrets (Or medium, or small).

As I type this, I still have not learned Spaceship Command 5, one of the 'Core' skills. I'll learn it shortly, but I haven't needed it for 5ish years.

trollerii
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.12.23 05:56:00 - [22]
 

EVE is so many things, for example the game of patience. It takes months to get into new ships. 2 months into the game you can either be at Cruisers or T2 frigs. Just a month or so more for BC. To be fair, if you can fly BC you can participate in almost all kinds of fleets or battles. BCs are one of the most versatile ships in EVE and it takes you about 3-4 months. A new player will NEED to have that much time to learn first frigates and then Cruisers. You will die in even more glorious and bigger fires if you don't have the buffer time of a couple of months.

Digital Messiah
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.12.23 11:40:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: IoWalker
LMFAO@THIS Very Happy

2nd poster in this thread said it best.


oh, IB4 all the crazy time/skill formulas start flying and this thread goes to 30pgs.


/****s shotgun. let it die ya hear!

Chakarr
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2010.12.23 12:51:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Chakarr on 23/12/2010 12:52:47
Originally by: Megatfx

Let's be serious, a 6 month specialization for a newer player to come out in a T2 Battlecruiser (Hurricane), and to truly compete with a 5 year player is just ludicrous.



I'll just comment on this part as I could write pages on how the essence of your whole idea is wrong, you have only been playing a month and you already feel qualified to suggest re-designing the entire skill system?

No.

Once you have been playing for a while you will realise that the 'in game skills' ie your skillsheet are not the be all and end all when it comes to competing, all they do is allow you to access more avenues - doing this slowly IS A GOOD THING - you need to learn to walk before you can run. The real skills in EVE are learnt through playing the game, knowing how to use the interface effectively, ship & module knowledge, when to engage, when to run, using the D-scanner, how to run a bubble camp through 0.0 with millions of isk of cargo etc...

It's these things that make you able to compete, that 5% more DPS a 5 year vet has over a younger character is meanless if he is caught off guard or doesn't know how to fly his ship properly. Example, my character is approaching 40mil in SPs, yet my game experience is limited - due to RL commitments I haven't practiced PVP very much and only recently have become accustomed to 0.0 living - there is a guy in my corp who only has 10 mil SPs and yet has dozens of kills under his belt and regularly kills players with 5x times his SP because his pilot skills are good and he spent far more time practising that element of the game.

Give it a bit more than a month before making flame magnet posts please. Have a nice day. Wink

Bronomanon
Posted - 2010.12.24 16:13:00 - [25]
 

Just to counter one earlier point of "why do you think you should be able to take on a five year old character". The simple answer is that you have too. Many other mmorpg herd players to other parts of the world as they progress. In eve 0.4 space is as relavant to a new player as an old one. Advanced players gate camp and blob new ones. On marketsyou compete with old players,like it or not. Eve is a hard world and it gets harder for new players evey day. Call new players whiners all you want but the fact is it's true.

Hopea Solv
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.26 09:56:00 - [26]
 

It was very daunting when I started eve, and still is some times when I'm branching into new fields, but I would not remove one skill, you will get the hang of it. And yea there's certificates for new players.

Once you get used to it you will be asking for more skills I can almost guarantee it.

Dorian Wylde
Posted - 2010.12.26 14:39:00 - [27]
 

Learning skills were things you had to train so you could train other things. Core skills are nothing like that.

No core skill is required for anything, they simply make some things easier. Unlike learning skills, which were absolutely needed for anyone who wanted to play more than a month, its perfectly possible to get by for quite a while without maxxed core skills.

Not a good idea to try, but that's another point entirely. They do not need to be changed.

Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.26 22:47:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Drykor
Guys, you should train up Troll Spotting to V. Put some of that learning SP in there.


I specialised with the advanced troll spotting; took it to level 5.

Does that mean I know he's trolling or does that make me the reson for him trolling? YARRRR!!

Perfection Tau
Cuties Only.
Posted - 2010.12.27 03:15:00 - [29]
 


Perfection Tau
Cuties Only.
Posted - 2010.12.27 03:18:00 - [30]
 

For years initial complexity served well to eve community filtering out wrong folks. Wich boils down to the question: what makes OP think he's wanted here?


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