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VuVieth7
Posted - 2011.01.05 08:29:00 - [211]
 

Edited by: VuVieth7 on 05/01/2011 08:32:20
Originally by: I'm Down
This idea completely removes the buff to local repairers and makes carrier swarming that much more overpowered. The Resist concept keeps dreads vulnerable, but just boost their survivability. I prefer the resist.



Increased resists / reps are impossible to scale. Each SC puts out 7-10k DPS. At what level would you raise the tank for the Dreads so they arn't overpowerered v's groups of 1-5 SC's, but are still dog food to groups of 50-100. A well fit dread can currently tank 4-5k DPS in siege mode. What would you raise that too? Raise it to 8-10k...and two dreads could kill a SC (which seams OP considering the value comparison), but would still be mean nothing v's 20 SC's.

Yes, making dreads able to receive reps in siege is going to significantly change the balance of power. However, as Siege'd dreads are still useless v's subcaps, and several can still smash down any POS...I think really all your going to effect is the SC/Titan v's Dread/Carrier balance. Titans will be able to still one shot Carriers / most Dreads every 10 mins.

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2011.01.05 11:23:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 05/01/2011 11:24:22
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
I haven't read the last 2 or so pages, but what would buffing dread dps against supercaps do? Or maybe a special siege module that works like a cloak (toggle on/off), but you can't target structures while it's active so it doesn't get abused for ninja pos takedowns.


Incorporating this into the existing siege module (via a script, perhaps?) could work, but since the balance issue is with supercarriers its surely more appropriate to modify the ships that are causing the problem rather than re-arranging everything else to fit in. The benefit of the proposed alterations is that it if supercarriers can no longer swat away tacklers and subcaps so freely, it helps re-establish the importance of smaller support ships and a balanced fleet composition, rather than a 1-dimensional 'just bring more of the biggest ships' approach that Dominion has introduced.

Plus, if supercaps remain as anti-capital gankmobiles and capitals become anti-supercap gankmobiles, the food chain starts to look more like a circle!
I understand this thread and support it. I'm just thinking of an alternative to it that might bring dreads back into fights.

TBH, I like what my naglfar looks like and would like to use it effectively on non-pos ops. One way to do this is to have dreads restored as an anti-supercap glass cannon.

As already noted, their dps isn't lacking, so as long as they had the ability to get out if **** hits the fan (much like supercaps can currently, though moms risk losing FBs if they need to do it real fast), one could do strafing runs with sniping dreads + anti-tackle support fleet against a supercap fleet.

With the recent changes to bombers, where they don't fire torpedoes until they get close to their target, sitting at range would give a dread wing enough time to fire a significant amount of DPS into the supercap blob cluster**** and then bugger off, only to warp in again at a different position. This requires a good prober/warpin provider on your team, and dreads paying maximum attention. Several moms yellowboxing your dread = time to drop siege and start aligning align.

Basically giving people that want to fly dreads a chance at participating without certain death, if nothing else.

Also, I'd give the siege a 15-30 sec cooldown time before the dread can warp/jump to prevent doomsdays from being useless against such strafing fleets. This would also make titans a good defense against such fleets?

Maybe I should start a separate thread for dreads :D

I also like the idea of just making siege 5 minutes and allow sieged dreads to receive reps, but this wouldn't work well in large fights imo, where dreads get 1-2 volleyed by fb swarms. Seems good at first, but doesn't scale well.

Some fun facts: 30 torp phoenixes equal a titan's doomsday every 15 seconds. At half the titan's price. If they could do this without getting locked down by siege and then instapopped by moms they'd be rather scary imo. Naglfar has similar alpha: 40k from artillery and another 40k from torps if **** survives long enough (supercaps do). Maybe a script for siege module that only gives the damage mod bonus/tracking nerf for one shot/30 seconds/something, and then has a cooldown, but doesn't hamper a dread's mobility to such a large extent?

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.05 12:37:00 - [213]
 

The problem is not really cost effectiveness, the problem is that cost effectiveness is largely irrelevant, what is way more important (especially with the amount of macro/rmt financed supercaps) is the pilot effectiveness. It is nice that 30 phoenixes are better than a titan (and not really half the price, more than that), but wouldnt it be much better if you put those 30 phoenix pilots in 30 super caps?

And that is the problem, regardless of the situation and what enemy brings, super caps are pretty much always the best choice.

Kristina Kirtchner
Posted - 2011.01.05 12:56:00 - [214]
 

No.

Your proposal ignore SCs roles.

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2011.01.05 14:02:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
The problem is not really cost effectiveness, the problem is that cost effectiveness is largely irrelevant, what is way more important (especially with the amount of macro/rmt financed supercaps) is the pilot effectiveness. It is nice that 30 phoenixes are better than a titan (and not really half the price, more than that), but wouldnt it be much better if you put those 30 phoenix pilots in 30 super caps?

And that is the problem, regardless of the situation and what enemy brings, super caps are pretty much always the best choice.
If cost effectiveness is indeed irrelevant, then either supers are too cheap (nerf build cost) or too good (nerf supers themselves). Maybe a mechanic like the office rents. More supers == next one costs more to build. Yes, this would make them even more exclusive to rich people, but if you bring 50 dreads to drop one 1t supercap, and get slaughtered in the progress, you still end up on top as far as isk goes. And if 1t isn't enough a deterrent, make it even higher.

Alternatively, nerf mineral yield from ALL current ingame sources. It'd hardly hit tech1 hulls because of current insurance mechanic, but everything else will be getting more expensive.

IMO all ships that aren't basic t1 hulls should have pricetags that make them not worth flying. This is already the case when you compare tech2 cruisers and teir2 battlecruisers. People only still fly hacs because they are faster.

There should be a game mechanic that adjusts the build cost of tech2/3, faction, supercap hulls depending on how FOTM they are. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever from a real world view (mass production makes **** cheaper), but it's the only way I can see supercaps in their current form staying without any new counters. Which is why I'm supporting the general notion in this thread, supers need a nerf, either by getting a proper counter, increasing in price or getting nerfed directly.

Direct nerf is also incidentally the easiest and safest to do, I'm just exploring different ways of getting to the same end.

Also, I'm really not sure many people RMT finance supercaps. 20bil would be 900? bux in GTC. I'd assume that makes it 500 if you buy it off some shady site. I dunno about people, but I wouldn't pay that for an internet spaceship...

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.05 14:43:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 05/01/2011 14:52:27
Originally by: Kristina Kirtchner
No.

Your proposal ignore SCs roles.

Actually the proposal doesnt, read it again.


Quote:
If cost effectiveness is indeed irrelevant, then either supers are too cheap

Euhm, so because cost effectiveness is irrelevant you want to make them more expensive. How is that in any way helpful if cost effectiveness is largely irrelevant? It will still be irrelevant. Even if you make them 100 times more expensive there will just be more macros running to finance them. The fact stays that per pilot they will always be the best option.
Sure you can add a new ship also to counter supercaps, make it cost 500B, that is so expensive there will never be more than a few at any time: (c) ccp. The only correct way is imo giving the ship a definite role (besides pwnmobile). For that stuff they may be good, but they also shoudl have weaknesses.

Supercaps are just the manifestation of bigger = better, i thought the idea behind eve was that pilot skill, ship choice and ship fitting was supposed to be better, not which side RMTs more. (And if they dont RMT they are using macro alts. Sure some will be bought by legimate means, but if you think those 200 supercaps that are built each month are largely financed by legimate means i got some bad news for you).

Btw sadly enough people would RMT 500 dollar to get one, also it isnt *that* much, look at the ammount of people with 3 accounts they pay for the normal way (so no plexes). They spend more than 500 dollar yearly on eve.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.01.05 15:09:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Kristina Kirtchner
Your proposal ignore SCs roles.

And what is their role in your eyes?
Originally by: Devblog, Jan2010
The biggest news is that Supercarriers will make their long-awaited debut on Tranquility. Intended to be the heavy hitters of capital ship PvP,..

CCP clearly meant for them to be anti-capital ships but due to the nature of drone based damage they have in fact become anti-everything ships. That is not a role, that is deification.

- Increasing manufacturing cost will not solve the issue as it will probably just result in even more CSAA being spammed in bubble-gum space.
- Increasing Dread power through EHP and/or DPS risks making them the blob-mobile of choice thus pushing supers back into POS for permanent storage.
- Decreasing SC power by enough for it to make a difference will most likely make them POS ornaments again.

In conclusion: Fixing the power imbalance of SCs has to be a combination of multiple facets if untoward side-effects are to be avoided.

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2011.01.05 15:36:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 05/01/2011 15:43:45
Well if people are running macros to finance their supercaps then the problem is elsewhere and simply nerfing price wouldn't do much (if any) difference indeed. This is then a problem at CCP though. Or maybe it's just time to move to another game (as if). It's really hilarious how no matter how terrible eve is, it's still the best MMO around..

I really hope CCP do something to their game, there's a bunch of competition coming up (black prophecy, miner wars, jumpgate...) and chances are maybe one of those will be worth playing over eve for most people...

Originally by: Furb Killer
Btw sadly enough people would RMT 500 dollar to get one, also it isnt *that* much, look at the ammount of people with 3 accounts they pay for the normal way (so no plexes). They spend more than 500 dollar yearly on eve.
I currently have 4 accounts. I pay for two (Main + carrier/jf/haul alt), other two I use as cyno alt accounts and use plex when I need them. Using the JF intelligently can easily make me a couple bil in 1-2 weeks, so it's not a problem at all when I actively play at all. The only reason I haven't ground up to a supercap is because I don't want to have a char stuck in it, and grinding for another alt to put it in said supercap is :effort: beyond what seems reasonable to me at this point.

Therefore I get the whole "price isn't an issue", it'd take me a gigantic 2 months of 1-2 hours of playing per day to grind up enough isk for a well fitted mom. Not really what I'd call expensive in an MMO environment.

If macroing is really as bad as you're making it look, there's not much point in playing the game anymore for legit players like me though.

Edit @Hirana: Then let them be POS ornaments. They're clearly too effective at the moment if they're being used so much despite their price tags. Whatever Furb Killer might say, I still think not a large percentage of moms is financed via macros. It's easy to make upwards of 80mil/hour ratting with the new anomalies, which means 200 hours (10 ingame days) nets you a mom if you're willing to grind that hard. I don't think this is balanced, therefore they need to be either nerfed, or price bumped.

NoStressGaming
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
Posted - 2011.01.05 16:37:00 - [219]
 

Supercarries are excellent ships, and they should be, they give bittervet's something to aim for.

Are they overpowered in their current form?
Yes

Any simple way to fix this?
Yes

How?
Reduce their (fitted) EHP by 50%

How does this bring them back in line?
This makes supercarriers vulnerable to Dreadnought fleets, as well as other supercarrier / Titan fleets. The main problem is not that they can dish out immense amounts of pain, it's that they (properly fitted) have EHP levels that are so high that any fleets which wants to kill them, needs to bring so many people that they completely lag out the system.

Antir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.06 09:49:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: Antir on 07/01/2011 00:18:09
I'm fine with them murdering caps it just silly that they can do the same to subcaps without any support fleet of their own.

Dunkler Imperator
N.F.H.P.
Eternal Evocations
Posted - 2011.01.06 20:38:00 - [221]
 


Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.10 13:57:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: NoStressGaming
Supercarries are excellent ships, and they should be, they give bittervet's something to aim for.

Are they overpowered in their current form?
Yes

Any simple way to fix this?
Yes

How?
Reduce their (fitted) EHP by 50%

How does this bring them back in line?
This makes supercarriers vulnerable to Dreadnought fleets, as well as other supercarrier / Titan fleets. The main problem is not that they can dish out immense amounts of pain, it's that they (properly fitted) have EHP levels that are so high that any fleets which wants to kill them, needs to bring so many people that they completely lag out the system.


I mentioned my problem with this in another reply, which is that it makes Supercarriers into anti-dread gankmobiles and dreads into anti-Supercarrier gankmobiles, and so the capital warfare food chain becomes a circle.

Some minor tweaking (in particular some reworking of logoff mechanics so that the default option for a supercarrier tackled by a midsized fleet can no longer be to ctrl-q and wait 15 minutes while they try to grind your buffer down) would be fine, but halving EHP doesn't do anything to solve the main issue with supercarriers, that they're unfocused 'anti-everything' platforms rather than a tool for a specific role.

I'm Down
Posted - 2011.01.10 17:13:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: NoStressGaming
Supercarries are excellent ships, and they should be, they give bittervet's something to aim for.

Are they overpowered in their current form?
Yes

Any simple way to fix this?
Yes

How?
Reduce their (fitted) EHP by 50%

How does this bring them back in line?
This makes supercarriers vulnerable to Dreadnought fleets, as well as other supercarrier / Titan fleets. The main problem is not that they can dish out immense amounts of pain, it's that they (properly fitted) have EHP levels that are so high that any fleets which wants to kill them, needs to bring so many people that they completely lag out the system.


I mentioned my problem with this in another reply, which is that it makes Supercarriers into anti-dread gankmobiles and dreads into anti-Supercarrier gankmobiles, and so the capital warfare food chain becomes a circle.

Some minor tweaking (in particular some reworking of logoff mechanics so that the default option for a supercarrier tackled by a midsized fleet can no longer be to ctrl-q and wait 15 minutes while they try to grind your buffer down) would be fine, but halving EHP doesn't do anything to solve the main issue with supercarriers, that they're unfocused 'anti-everything' platforms rather than a tool for a specific role.


The catch 22 is always going to be that the moment they nerf SC w/o nerfing titans, Titan numbers are just going to explode.

Yes SC need a defined role. Nuking their drone bays to only allow fighter and FB use is a good thing. But hammering them in any other aspect is going to convince people to upgrade to titans.

The HP issue is only really an issue in terms of log off mechanics. This is true of all Supers in combat and when trapped by small fleets. A 25% reduction in HP wouldn't be terrible, but it's not really needed.

RR still continues to be a problem. An aeon with 1 RR can mitigate nearly 75% of an enemy super carrier's fighter bomber damage. This is utterly moronic when other SC cannot be jammed and thus provide a **** ton of repping power.

Both titans and SC need to be brought back in line. The Dread 50% resist boost in siege does this quite well. It reduces the effects a titan can have with a DD on a cap fleet, and it prolongs the survivability of dreads vs SC long enough for them to actually project damage.

So it's pretty simple. Remove SC effectiveness with regular drones, and give dreads a defensive bonus only in siege. Keep the 10 minute siege timer, it's a good negative for dreads to have.

Bobbeh
Minmatar
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2011.01.10 20:53:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: I'm Down
Snipit


I Do agree with your argument, but I do believe the Fix to Super Caps is in the Rebalancing of Dreads.

Though the RR argument i 100% argee with and as i stated earlier if you removed the range bonus would greatly limit the ability to RR as they are big ships and slow to move. Also one could give them back triage mode, but change it for SC's,range bonus, Not immune to ECM, No drones, No neuts/smarties, and no moving. Basically would be a last ditch rep effort or an after combat rep effort, and to effectively RR friendly Caps you'd have to remove yourself from the dps chain. Problem Is any change to Super carriers RR ability is negated by Carriers and Sacrificial Triage Alts.

This is why i believe that Dreads need a significant boost, There stationary attack tactics limits ability to chase their target but gives them a large damage bonus. In my Eyes this needs to Be Increased damage wise, by 1 more turrets worth of damage. With tracking to counter moving super caps, and Torps/missles that can catch moving super caps and do damage (cause right now pheonix's suck when you start moving as a target.)

Furthermore their needs to be a reduction to Neut range on super carriers by a third this would make them vulnerable to Hics with focused points.

Also just a thought but why not make them jammable? that would be just reducing the sensor strength, it wouldnt affect their ability to be immune to other ecm's but would make them jammable. Just a thought though.

As lag is fixed SC's will be more vulnerable to smaller ships clipping their claws, this and dreads will bring super carriers into line.

At least thats my opinion


Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.10 21:22:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 10/01/2011 21:42:14
Originally by: I'm Down
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: NoStressGaming
Supercarries are excellent ships, and they should be, they give bittervet's something to aim for.

Are they overpowered in their current form?
Yes

Any simple way to fix this?
Yes

How?
Reduce their (fitted) EHP by 50%

How does this bring them back in line?
This makes supercarriers vulnerable to Dreadnought fleets, as well as other supercarrier / Titan fleets. The main problem is not that they can dish out immense amounts of pain, it's that they (properly fitted) have EHP levels that are so high that any fleets which wants to kill them, needs to bring so many people that they completely lag out the system.


I mentioned my problem with this in another reply, which is that it makes Supercarriers into anti-dread gankmobiles and dreads into anti-Supercarrier gankmobiles, and so the capital warfare food chain becomes a circle.

Some minor tweaking (in particular some reworking of logoff mechanics so that the default option for a supercarrier tackled by a midsized fleet can no longer be to ctrl-q and wait 15 minutes while they try to grind your buffer down) would be fine, but halving EHP doesn't do anything to solve the main issue with supercarriers, that they're unfocused 'anti-everything' platforms rather than a tool for a specific role.


The catch 22 is always going to be that the moment they nerf SC w/o nerfing titans, Titan numbers are just going to explode. ...


BFF dear friend.
SC need EHP changes but titan not need nerf, just one single change.
Just need to change the titan bridge passage methods.
If the fleet want to move to other system, need move with titan to targeted system.
Now open a titan bridge is too safe for titan pilots.
No danger = no loss. This is why titan numbers not decreased year over year. This need to change and not need titan nerf. Titan would be move with fleet if the fleet want titan bridge, this is the solution.
Jump to hostile space would be reduce the titan numbers.
Titan jump to hostile space with fleet = more dangers for titans.

Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.01.10 21:31:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Tiger's Spirit

BFF dear friend.
SC need EHP changes but titan not need nerf, just one single change.
Just need disable the simple titan portal.
If the fleet want to move to other system, need move with titan to targeted system.
Now open a titan bridge is too safe for titan pilots.
No danger = no loss. This need to change and not need titan nerf. Titan would be move with fleet if the fleet want titan bridge, this is the solution.
Jump to hostile space would be reduce the titan numbers.
Titan jump to hostile space with fleet = more dangers for titans.


Removing the Jump Portal Generator is removing 50% of the entire value of having a Titan in the first place. It is an unacceptable nerf.

The only relatively simpe solution I can see is to make them more expensive and longer to build (including Motherships), but this would harm smaller alliances, while not really affecting the large, mega-rich ones too much. So solution is pending.

Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.10 21:40:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Horizonist
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit

BFF dear friend.
SC need EHP changes but titan not need nerf, just one single change.
Just need disable the simple titan portal.
If the fleet want to move to other system, need move with titan to targeted system.
Now open a titan bridge is too safe for titan pilots.
No danger = no loss. This need to change and not need titan nerf. Titan would be move with fleet if the fleet want titan bridge, this is the solution.
Jump to hostile space would be reduce the titan numbers.
Titan jump to hostile space with fleet = more dangers for titans.


Removing the Jump Portal Generator is removing 50% of the entire value of having a Titan in the first place.


No,no,no nobody talk about remove Jump Portal Generator.
But change the Jump Portal Generator working method.

Now titan pilot open a portal and the fleet jump to targeted system, but the titan not need to jump, just left behind at starting system.

Change titan bridge rule, Move titan to fleet command position and jump to targeted system with all fleet members. Jump with those pilots who where is at titan within 50km range.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.10 22:20:00 - [228]
 

Fixing supercarriers by buffing dreads is problematic because it affects dreads in other circumstances (eg dreads vs subcaps). If every supercarrier was deleted from the server tomorrow, dreads would be more or less balanced, like they were pre-Dominion where nobody used motherships and titans were useless against capitals.

The only real problems with dreads today are supercap related - that dropping supercarriers on sieged dreads is low risk killmail printing unless the numbers are stupendously uneven or the server craps out randomly, and the fact that a supercarrier's damage output beats a dread when shooting sov structures (unlike the old days of POS warfare) whilst again being lower risk due to the lack of siege mode required. Ideas such as siege module resist bonuses or allowing sieged dreads to be remote repped don't just (if even) fix that, they have further knock-on implications across the board.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.01.11 05:07:00 - [229]
 

What if siege was reduced to 5 mins and if they were allowed remote reps while in siege

lwxsky oli
Minmatar
FACTS on EVE
Posted - 2011.01.11 06:51:00 - [230]
 

Edited by: lwxsky oli on 11/01/2011 07:12:08
Make super caps log off time to 30 min. Can only use fighter bombers and no other drones.

They have the power to insta pop any thing smaller than themselves. They have the tank to log off in most engagements.

Super carriers already become the ultimate god ships in EVE in my opinion, 15 billion is really cheap for their performance since they always appear in groups these days so they're very hard to lose.

Just check out most cap killmails involved supercarriers. Almost all of them died at around their base HP, carrier spider tank, triage/siege mods have no chance at all to tank them.

I've seen so many times FC requests in cap fleets,"Super caps only, If you don't have one, get out and save the spot!!" lol

So, if you have a spare alt with carrier lvl 5, get in super carrier. This god ship really worth it.

It has ultimate DPS against all other ships. It has great tank. Capital sized logistic platform. Super e-war ability(ecm burst). And most importantly, you can have all of them at same time in one ship.

Let CCP decide if they need a ultimate god ship in this game.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2011.01.11 07:41:00 - [231]
 

Not that I am in anyway a Capital buff or even know alot about how Capitals work.

But I am siting here thinking wow that old Titatin DD would be a great counter to SC's just swating down all there dps but having so large a EHP that I belive it would take a Insane number of Titatins to Insta pop one. Meaning that a Fleet would be better off in a Longer Larger fight by timeing the old Titatin DD's to clear out as much SC dps. I mean there going to run out of Fighter Bombers at some point right?


Also what is stoping Titatin's from Taking out SC with there curent DD? Just asking as I realy dont know.

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2011.01.11 13:58:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Bobbeh
Originally by: I'm Down
Snipit

Also just a thought but why not make them jammable? that would be just reducing the sensor strength, it wouldnt affect their ability to be immune to other ecm's but would make them jammable. Just a thought though.

As lag is fixed SC's will be more vulnerable to smaller ships clipping their claws, this and dreads will bring super carriers into line.

At least thats my opinion



WHy again jammable? WHy is YET AGAIN caldary ECM so privilidgd? Falcons are powerfull enough. WHy don't arazu get such privilige? FIrst more skills, then ECM mods, then marauders, then this.

Give supercarriers partial E-war vulnerability only. ALl e-war has 1/5th of it's normal effect on them, so you need like 40 points to keep a SC in place, and 10 webs to keep it from moving, but you should be able to do it.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.11 22:46:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner

But I am siting here thinking wow that old Titatin DD would be a great counter to SC's just swating down all there dps but having so large a EHP that I belive it would take a Insane number of Titatins to Insta pop one. Meaning that a Fleet would be better off in a Longer Larger fight by timeing the old Titatin DD's to clear out as much SC dps. I mean there going to run out of Fighter Bombers at some point right?

The problem with the old-style DD is that it kills not just the fighters but pretty much everything other than battleships and capitals.

Quote:
Also what is stoping Titatin's from Taking out SC with there curent DD? Just asking as I realy dont know.

A Level V Doomsday does 3m points of raw damage, properly set up supercarriers (Hel aside) typcally have upwards of 50m EHP. You need a lot of doomsdays to kill a supercarrier.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2011.01.12 08:08:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 12/01/2011 08:13:14
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Rip Minner

But I am siting here thinking wow that old Titatin DD would be a great counter to SC's just swating down all there dps but having so large a EHP that I belive it would take a Insane number of Titatins to Insta pop one. Meaning that a Fleet would be better off in a Longer Larger fight by timeing the old Titatin DD's to clear out as much SC dps. I mean there going to run out of Fighter Bombers at some point right?

The problem with the old-style DD is that it kills not just the fighters but pretty much everything other than battleships and capitals.

Quote:
Also what is stoping Titatin's from Taking out SC with there curent DD? Just asking as I realy dont know.

A Level V Doomsday does 3m points of raw damage, properly set up supercarriers (Hel aside) typcally have upwards of 50m EHP. You need a lot of doomsdays to kill a supercarrier.


Thx u for taking the time to explain that to me.Smile

I dont know jack about Caps or Sov Warfar but I have ran into a few low sec SC's. If there as strong as they do seem to be. I think there going to get nerfed into the ground at some point for all the same reasons that BS's did. How and in what ways I have no clue.ugh

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.16 01:04:00 - [235]
 

well well well, what have we here

Quote:
The current situation with Super Carriers is that they are just not dying, they do large quantities of damage to other Capital ships and sub Capital ships in fact they can be wielded in any situation with very good effects. In addition, they are obsoleting a whole class of ships, the Dreadnaughts. There were some examples given of how easy it is to move Super Carriers due to their jump range allowing extreme force projection by relatively small number of pilot flying Super Carriers. It was decided to postpone this discussion to the 0.0 discussion.

CCP Greyscale floated a trial balloon for some conceptual balance changes, which have not been allocated time or manpower. More details will be provided on the Features and Ideas forum section if the topic is granted development resources


But hey, I'm sure that everyone else thinks supercarriers are completely fine and this thread is just bitter goonie nerfsploits because they can't beat them with their T1 noob rifters, right guys?

Dunhill 1
Posted - 2011.01.16 03:58:00 - [236]
 

Like everything else things have ben buffed or nurfed. Another option please

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.16 04:16:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Dunhill 1
Like everything else things have ben buffed or nurfed. Another option please

So you want an option to bring them into line that isnt a nerf or buff? Do explain how you plan to accomplish that.

Shinma Apollo
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2011.01.16 06:53:00 - [238]
 

Supercarriers need to be rebalanced, but your proposed changes are largely terrible, since they mostly incorporate straw men and single-scenario circumstances without looking at the broader spectrum of supercap use.

More to the point, it's engaging in a silly buff/nerf cycle rather than creating more tools and allowing player innovation, rather than sheer numbers and dumb luck/server performance dictate engagements. I agree on the supercarrier HP nerf, or at the very least making a shield equivilant to slaves (and having gang stat bonuses not reset meaning 10-45% of your shields disappearing every trucking jump), but supercaps are a huge time/isk investment, and a similar time/isk investment should be demanded to down one of these behemoths.

As for the whining about supercaps being able to shake tacklers too easily, at least in 0.0, I blame this on substandard tacklers, not 'wtfpwnmobile' supercaps. I've been on several supercap kills that one dictor has been sufficient to keep a supercap tackled.

A couple of much more practical solutions include:
- All dreads get an extra utility highslot, and create a module for it akin to hictor superpoint (scripted), usable only in siege. This will allow regular cap fleets to have some combat capability against supercapital fleets that come looking for ganks, but still force a commitment. Hictors and dictors can be used for primary tackle, and dreads for the follow-through. You'll see a number of neut dreads as a result as well, but this will also help the supercap destruction you so desire.

- Bring back AOE doomsday in some form: this is both a huge supercap nerf (Bye bye bombers/fighters!) and a much needed change to see a bit more variety in fleets than the current rediculously logistics dominated doctrines. 1 per system per hour would be a lovely, lovely inclusion with it to prevent unrealistic castling for the defender, but I'll settle for 20-30k damage. If you'd like a much lazier way to prevent multi-doomsdays scenarios, just add to every doomsday a huge energy neutralization side-effect to all hit ships. Gives a much more catastrophic-failure-doomsday like element to it. Personally, I'm ok with 4 titans instajibbing all the logis/support/recons from the fleet, especially given that with the improvements in server performance, in most scenarios you should have no problems dodging more than a single dd. (finally, I'm willing to wager that at 30k damage, you'd need about 50 titans to drop a nidhoggur blob, which with 50 titans you could adequately do in an easier fashion than said hypothetical mechanic)

- Capital Class ewar ships: this is just a side bit, but it does offer a very tried-and-true solution to the current problem of capital RR blobs. In fact, make them the new motherships for the Guristas/Angels/Serpentis/Blood Raider incursions for the **** of it(notsureifserious). A bit of variation in the toolkit would do wonders to help break the dilemma in capital warfare.

- Smartbombs/heavy bombers: getting a few + range and damage smartbombing ships would offer a lot of in-fleet support counters to fighter bombers, and add the lots of lulz when accidentally instajib every dictor you have. Also, the pirates in rancer would cry for joy at these, think of those wide-eyed pirates in rancer!

In sum, these are just a few more viable solutions that are not solely dedicated to rendering an entire shipclass down to complete **** again.



EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.16 08:37:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Shinma Apollo
Supercarriers need to be rebalanced, but your proposed changes are largely terrible, since they mostly incorporate straw men and single-scenario circumstances without looking at the broader spectrum of supercap use.

More to the point, it's engaging in a silly buff/nerf cycle rather than creating more tools and allowing player innovation, rather than sheer numbers and dumb luck/server performance dictate engagements. I agree on the supercarrier HP nerf, or at the very least making a shield equivilant to slaves (and having gang stat bonuses not reset meaning 10-45% of your shields disappearing every trucking jump), but supercaps are a huge time/isk investment, and a similar time/isk investment should be demanded to down one of these behemoths.

As for the whining about supercaps being able to shake tacklers too easily, at least in 0.0, I blame this on substandard tacklers, not 'wtfpwnmobile' supercaps. I've been on several supercap kills that one dictor has been sufficient to keep a supercap tackled.

A couple of much more practical solutions include:
- All dreads get an extra utility highslot, and create a module for it akin to hictor superpoint (scripted), usable only in siege. This will allow regular cap fleets to have some combat capability against supercapital fleets that come looking for ganks, but still force a commitment. Hictors and dictors can be used for primary tackle, and dreads for the follow-through. You'll see a number of neut dreads as a result as well, but this will also help the supercap destruction you so desire.

- Bring back AOE doomsday in some form: this is both a huge supercap nerf (Bye bye bombers/fighters!) and a much needed change to see a bit more variety in fleets than the current rediculously logistics dominated doctrines. 1 per system per hour would be a lovely, lovely inclusion with it to prevent unrealistic castling for the defender, but I'll settle for 20-30k damage. If you'd like a much lazier way to prevent multi-doomsdays scenarios, just add to every doomsday a huge energy neutralization side-effect to all hit ships. Gives a much more catastrophic-failure-doomsday like element to it. Personally, I'm ok with 4 titans instajibbing all the logis/support/recons from the fleet, especially given that with the improvements in server performance, in most scenarios you should have no problems dodging more than a single dd. (finally, I'm willing to wager that at 30k damage, you'd need about 50 titans to drop a nidhoggur blob, which with 50 titans you could adequately do in an easier fashion than said hypothetical mechanic)

- Capital Class ewar ships: this is just a side bit, but it does offer a very tried-and-true solution to the current problem of capital RR blobs. In fact, make them the new motherships for the Guristas/Angels/Serpentis/Blood Raider incursions for the **** of it(notsureifserious). A bit of variation in the toolkit would do wonders to help break the dilemma in capital warfare.

- Smartbombs/heavy bombers: getting a few + range and damage smartbombing ships would offer a lot of in-fleet support counters to fighter bombers, and add the lots of lulz when accidentally instajib every dictor you have. Also, the pirates in rancer would cry for joy at these, think of those wide-eyed pirates in rancer!

In sum, these are just a few more viable solutions that are not solely dedicated to rendering an entire shipclass down to complete **** again.





I stopped reading this after you said they needed an HP nerf and buff in consecutive sentences.

Serena Ku
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.16 08:50:00 - [240]
 

Edited by: Serena Ku on 16/01/2011 08:58:21
Supercarriers definitely needs a nerf sooner or later and the proposed changes seem pretty fair, I'm not so sure on the titans though.

Edit: I think the old AoE DDs can come back, but in a form of a script, smaller radius, longer immobility, and heavier capacitor/fuel cost.

Edit 2: "All dreads get an extra utility highslot, and create a module for it akin to hictor superpoint (scripted)" - I like this idea too, although it means the return of 50-100+ man dread fights will be downright dangerous to supercaps in a bad situation.


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