open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked [Proposal] Supercarrier Nerf
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 ... : last (13)

Author Topic

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2010.12.27 16:25:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
The fact no supercap in their right mind active tanks was my point. The numbers are based on a hypothetical situation that happens extremely rarely. Like if I ran numbers on encountering a deadspace tanked T1 rifter that was buffer tanked.


Acknowledged, but the numbers bear out fairly well in the case of a 50m EHP flying brick vs. the active-tanked dreadnought. In that slightly more plausible scenario, the dreadnought dies in about 2 minutes if the SC dies in 10. Adding a sig radius reduction when in siege would increase this to whatever level is reasonable.

Quote:

edit: I like the idea of small anti capital ships. However at this point we dont need more stuff to discourage normal capitals.


I think if this was done right, it could encourage the use of normal capitals over supercaps for more routine operations. I know this is broadening the scope of what you originally wanted to look at with this thread, but no class of ship exists in isolation.

I also like the ideas XTTZ presented for giving other small ships more tools to use against caps, and I think adding more things like these would give combat in EVE more of a rock-paper-scissors sense of balance than changing SCs alone.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.12.27 19:34:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
... Adding a sig radius reduction when in siege would increase this to whatever level is reasonable...

You risk running into issues with Dreads vs. Dreads by messing with signatures too much. Sig.Res on capital guns is 1km, and with severely crippled tracking it won't take much to make them lose damage.

And tweaking gun characteristics to compensate is not an option as that risks making sieged Dreads capable of hitting sub-caps.

When it comes to Dread tweaks, the best suggestion so far has been a siege EHP buff either through raw numbers or through resists, large damage boost and/or cutting siege cycle duration as was done with triage.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.28 21:16:00 - [183]
 

By messing with sig you also drastically reduce the damage they take from FB. Down to what BS levels were pre FB nerf.

I'm Down
Posted - 2010.12.30 06:53:00 - [184]
 

Edited by: I''m Down on 30/12/2010 06:57:29
50% resist boost while in siege can give a dread approximately 4-10 mil ehp based on the current setups and some unique ones. I'm assuming that people would do some wacked out fits that could get them as high as 20 mil ehp.

With that amount of EHP, and b/c it only affects dreads in siege, I'd say that would provide huge problems to both motherships and titans being spammed left and right. Dreads would once again be the work horses of the capitals.

Dreads would still be vunerable to neuts, non siege operations, and not high enough ehp to logoffski too badly. Logging off capitals is more a problem with log off mechanics than capitals anyways.


It would still not fix Supers, but would certainly put more scare into them when 5 motherships see 20 dreads somewhere.

I'm sure someone will whine about POS guns at that point, but honestly, if you lose capitals to POS Guns, it's ******ed FC work, not the capitals that are the problem currently.


[Revelation, New Setup 1]
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Regenerative Plating II
Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I




That fit would get 7mil ehp with resist bonus... a faction pimp dread with titan might get up to 20. But it would sacrifice dps and any active tank to do so.

leich
Amarr
Sad Panda'z
Posted - 2010.12.30 11:34:00 - [185]
 

This is the most rediculas idea i have ever read.

Super caps are under powered not over powered.

a Super cap fleet is a mix of anti BS blob and anti cap. Your sugestions take this away. and would make them useless against BS.




EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.30 11:36:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: leich
This is the most rediculas idea i have ever read.

Super caps are under powered not over powered.

a Super cap fleet is a mix of anti BS blob and anti cap. Your sugestions take this away. and would make them useless against BS.


Look at this obvious troll here

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.30 15:34:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: leich
This is the most rediculas idea i have ever read.

Super caps are under powered not over powered.

a Super cap fleet is a mix of anti BS blob and anti cap. Your sugestions take this away. and would make them useless against BS.


0/10 Rolling Eyes

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.30 17:21:00 - [188]
 

Any idea when and if CCP will 'look' at supercaps Wink

Quicktime
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.12.30 18:38:00 - [189]
 

Crying or Very sad

captain foivos
Posted - 2010.12.30 19:22:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
Any idea when and if CCP will 'look' at supercaps Wink


18 months.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.30 21:11:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
Any idea when and if CCP will 'look' at supercaps Wink


Going from the CSM summit notes, they are already discussing them.

The more pertinent question is when they'll do anything to them.

Ryan Starwing
Gallente
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.12.31 04:04:00 - [192]
 

Edited by: Ryan Starwing on 31/12/2010 04:09:04
I am in favor of a super cap eph nerf (this includes titans). I think the eph buff they got was a bit to much. Cutting the eph in half for them sounds about right though.

Edit:This is also with a dread buff cutting seige mod cycle and fule cost in half, and make seiged mode=more dps with but cant move. This means dreads only disadvantage of seiged mode is cant move for 5 minutes, and with allowing them to get rr boosts their tank so supers (bar titan dd) dont slaughter them.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2011.01.03 22:21:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
... Adding a sig radius reduction when in siege would increase this to whatever level is reasonable...

You risk running into issues with Dreads vs. Dreads by messing with signatures too much. Sig.Res on capital guns is 1km, and with severely crippled tracking it won't take much to make them lose damage.


When in siege, dreads are stationary, so the ability of capital guns to track them is not an issue. Do you think this bonus would be necessary for dreads not in siege mode?

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
By messing with sig you also drastically reduce the damage they take from FB. Down to what BS levels were pre FB nerf.


No damage reduction occurs until dreadnought sig radius goes below the bomber explosion radius of 2.25km. That's still low enough to mitigate 85% of the damage from an anti-supercap torp with a 15km explosion radius.

Toffee Stunner
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2011.01.03 22:58:00 - [194]
 

Oh my goodness... ShockedShocked

Almost 200 replies and only 35 votes for this idea. ConfusedConfused

I think it is safe to say this idea is bad. Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sad

Don't feel bad honey, you tried your best and that is what matters. Very HappyVery Happy

So, stop bringing this back to the top and it is time to flush this ok?

- <3 Toffee Stunner

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.03 23:12:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Toffee Stunner
Oh my goodness... ShockedShocked

Almost 200 replies and only 35 votes for this idea. ConfusedConfused

I think it is safe to say this idea is bad. Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sad

Don't feel bad honey, you tried your best and that is what matters. Very HappyVery Happy

So, stop bringing this back to the top and it is time to flush this ok?

- <3 Toffee Stunner
It is a good idea and your immature gloating doesn't change that fact.

Anyone with a brain can understand the supercarriers are too good against sub-caps and that's not their role.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.01.03 23:27:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Toffee Stunner
Oh my goodness... ShockedShocked

Oh my goodness, a replier that hasn't read any of the thread he is ridiculing Shocked

Vast majority are actually in favour of capital rebalance, we just bicker about how to go about it.
So fear not, you get to fly your broken SC for a little while longer with no chance of loosing it barring supreme idiocy.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.04 02:33:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Toffee Stunner
Oh my goodness... ShockedShocked

Almost 200 replies and only 35 votes for this idea. ConfusedConfused

I think it is safe to say this idea is bad. Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sad

Don't feel bad honey, you tried your best and that is what matters. Very HappyVery Happy

So, stop bringing this back to the top and it is time to flush this ok?

- <3 Toffee Stunner


Well this would be true if they were unique responses. However they aren't.

Jessica Autumn
Posted - 2011.01.04 03:37:00 - [198]
 

Well, havn't u all noticed they already got nerf DPS to sub caps is been cut by 30%, If u don't like how the Super Carriers are now then don't go hunting them, for 11-14 Billion isk, Id want something that can take on anything out there, Hence the SUPER CAPITAL, crying that there to OP has been going on since Dominion.

paracidic
High Venture Team
Red Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.04 03:49:00 - [199]
 

Edited by: paracidic on 04/01/2011 03:51:24
I think the true question here is how few drakes should be able to kill supercarriers.

I mean Since NC and friends etc can field 1k drakes I think the server should just reset Sov as soon as they enter system. Titans and other Capitals should self destruct immediately and POS shields should drop allowing anything inside to be targeted.

Oh and the 600m insurance for a titan loss should be forfieted to the killers allaince to compensate them for the Caldari Navy Missles used to kill the 70B isk machine.

ShockedRolling Eyes

Why do we have to constantly dumb down the game to make recruits from Something Awful able to enjoy it?


oh and judging from the date of the OP I suspect that he is just butthurt.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.04 04:27:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: paracidic
Edited by: paracidic on 04/01/2011 03:51:24
I think the true question here is how few drakes should be able to kill supercarriers.

I mean Since NC and friends etc can field 1k drakes I think the server should just reset Sov as soon as they enter system. Titans and other Capitals should self destruct immediately and POS shields should drop allowing anything inside to be targeted.

Oh and the 600m insurance for a titan loss should be forfieted to the killers allaince to compensate them for the Caldari Navy Missles used to kill the 70B isk machine.

ShockedRolling Eyes

Why do we have to constantly dumb down the game to make recruits from Something Awful able to enjoy it?


oh and judging from the date of the OP I suspect that he is just butthurt.

Because they can’t do that all at once. They have to sneak up on it. One little nerf at a time until the only thing that matters in a battle is how many three month old players one side has over the other.

I say offer them some pureed carrots. Maybe they’ll go away.

-Windjammer

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.04 04:45:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Jessica Autumn
Well, havn't u all noticed they already got nerf DPS to sub caps is been cut by 30%, If u don't like how the Super Carriers are now then don't go hunting them, for 11-14 Billion isk, Id want something that can take on anything out there, Hence the SUPER CAPITAL, crying that there to OP has been going on since Dominion.

Actually they were nerfed against subcaps by far more than 30% but I think thats just the first step in what should happen.

As for the DICE troll you're in a pretty special place to talk about being butthurt. If you honestly view being unable to simply field one type of ship to counter p much anything in the game as "dumbing down" of Eve maybe you should relook into what the concept of dumbing down means.

You should also look into your apoc fits.

galphi
Gallente
Furnulum pani nolo
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2011.01.04 06:14:00 - [202]
 

Sounds good to me, I also like the 'DCU's give 3 extra drones each + only 1 drone extra per carrier level' thing, that makes a lot of sense.

Don't bother removing that lowslot on the Hel, it's already so very weak by comparison. What we should also be talking about is making slave implants not function on capital ships too.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.01.04 09:51:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Jessica Autumn
..for 11-14 Billion isk, Id want something that can take on anything out there, Hence the SUPER CAPITAL, crying that there to OP has been going on since Dominion.

And a billion ISK faction BS should be able to kill anything that costs less than that, right? ISK is not now nor has it ever been a balancing factor .. to use it as such would mean decoupling all prices from market so they do not fluctuate except when Devs wish it so.
Reason for not going "hunting" (I assume you mean fail-fit ratting SC?) is that you need your own or a stupendous blob to do anything should you happen to catch one.
Originally by: paracidic
I think the true question here is how few drakes should be able to kill supercarriers ...

So you want to balance Eve on the basis of what FotM jockeys latch on to every time they get an impulse from a stray neuron.
There has only been one occasion where a player entity has been directly responsible for a major game change - wardec system and Privateers.
As for "dumbing down" .. how does asking for changes that makes more than 3 (4 counting Drakes Smile) ships viable become 'dumbing down', quite the opposite. Capitals Online is BORING .. whatever change makes it less so is a good change.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.04 11:23:00 - [204]
 

I still think the Hel bonus should be changed to engine trail length per level. Very Happy

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2011.01.04 11:33:00 - [205]
 

I haven't read the last 2 or so pages, but what would buffing dread dps against supercaps do? Or maybe a special siege module that works like a cloak (toggle on/off), but you can't target structures while it's active so it doesn't get abused for ninja pos takedowns.

Close range dreads have DPS that almost matches that of a mom, but cost and EHP are only 10% of a mom's. Surely there can be something done here to make them into supercap melting glass cannons when used correctly. Currently this isn't possible, because supers melt them too fast as soon as they enter siege (no remote reps, can't even get out).

Just an idea I had the other day, feel free to figure out everything that's wrong with it :P

Supporting this thread, though you might want to rethink the -1 slot on Hel. I think if it stays like it is while the others lose the slot might make it look like it can compete. ugh

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.04 12:58:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Nuts Nougat
I haven't read the last 2 or so pages, but what would buffing dread dps against supercaps do? Or maybe a special siege module that works like a cloak (toggle on/off), but you can't target structures while it's active so it doesn't get abused for ninja pos takedowns.


Incorporating this into the existing siege module (via a script, perhaps?) could work, but since the balance issue is with supercarriers its surely more appropriate to modify the ships that are causing the problem rather than re-arranging everything else to fit in. The benefit of the proposed alterations is that it if supercarriers can no longer swat away tacklers and subcaps so freely, it helps re-establish the importance of smaller support ships and a balanced fleet composition, rather than a 1-dimensional 'just bring more of the biggest ships' approach that Dominion has introduced.

Plus, if supercaps remain as anti-capital gankmobiles and capitals become anti-supercap gankmobiles, the food chain starts to look more like a circle!

Quote:
Supporting this thread, though you might want to rethink the -1 slot on Hel. I think if it stays like it is while the others lose the slot might make it look like it can compete. ugh

I'm assuming that the Hel will (eventually) get some sort of reworking of its bonuses and/or stats to bring it in line with the rest (or that the others will be nerfed down to Hel levels!) seperately from any reworking of supercarrier abilities as a whole. If not, then you have a point.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.04 13:00:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Jessica Autumn
Well, havn't u all noticed they already got nerf DPS to sub caps is been cut by 30%, If u don't like how the Super Carriers are now then don't go hunting them, for 11-14 Billion isk, Id want something that can take on anything out there, Hence the SUPER CAPITAL, crying that there to OP has been going on since Dominion.


Confirming that spending the most ISK on a ship should make it functionally indestructable.

*fits officer mods to a rifter*

VuVieth7
Posted - 2011.01.05 05:14:00 - [208]
 

As a Super Carrier pilot, Capital FC and 0.0 fleet FC, I've had some experience with supercaps. Both fighting as and against the supercap blob.

The short of it is, the issue Isn't with SuperCaps. They are fairly well balanced, given their expense, difficulty to construct, etc. The issue is with Dreads.

Currently, I would quite happily take my single SuperCap against 3-4 Dread's, knowing that I would win the fight (Assuming they don't have support). Short range fit Dreads do close to SC DPS (with the Moros at just over 7k). However, given that the Siege cycle goes for 10 mins, and that they cannot receive reps, they are easy kills.

So, IMHO, the simple fix to supercaps is to buff Dreads.
* Shorten their Siege Cycle to 5 mins.
* Allow them to receive remote reps when they are in siege.

What will this do? It means a Dread/Carrier blob has a chance at beating a SuperCap Blob. It will give more of a roll to Carriers (to support Dreads). It will also mean that Dreads are not completely useless in large scale warfare.

Currently their ONLY role is to shoot at POS's. Unless you hold complete superiority its a huge risk to use them to shoot at Sov Structures/Cap Battles, a much larger risk than using a SuperCap.

A well organized Dread/Carrier fleet, could counter a Supercap fleet (depending on sizes etc.)

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2011.01.05 06:19:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: VuVieth7
As a Super Carrier pilot, Capital FC and 0.0 fleet FC, I've had some experience with supercaps. Both fighting as and against the supercap blob.

The short of it is, the issue Isn't with SuperCaps. They are fairly well balanced, given their expense, difficulty to construct, etc. The issue is with Dreads.

Currently, I would quite happily take my single SuperCap against 3-4 Dread's, knowing that I would win the fight (Assuming they don't have support). Short range fit Dreads do close to SC DPS (with the Moros at just over 7k). However, given that the Siege cycle goes for 10 mins, and that they cannot receive reps, they are easy kills.

So, IMHO, the simple fix to supercaps is to buff Dreads.
* Shorten their Siege Cycle to 5 mins.
* Allow them to receive remote reps when they are in siege.

What will this do? It means a Dread/Carrier blob has a chance at beating a SuperCap Blob. It will give more of a roll to Carriers (to support Dreads). It will also mean that Dreads are not completely useless in large scale warfare.

Currently their ONLY role is to shoot at POS's. Unless you hold complete superiority its a huge risk to use them to shoot at Sov Structures/Cap Battles, a much larger risk than using a SuperCap.

A well organized Dread/Carrier fleet, could counter a Supercap fleet (depending on sizes etc.)


I like this ideal best. It feels alot like how a BS/Logic's fleet can handle a Dread/Carrier fleet so why should a Dread/Carrier fleet not be made able to handle a SC/Titain fleet?ugh

I have no exp. with Caps. I have no real love for them. But thats becouse I only like ships that I can take everywere with me. But the ideal looks sound to me.

I'm Down
Posted - 2011.01.05 07:19:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner
Originally by: VuVieth7
As a Super Carrier pilot, Capital FC and 0.0 fleet FC, I've had some experience with supercaps. Both fighting as and against the supercap blob.

The short of it is, the issue Isn't with SuperCaps. They are fairly well balanced, given their expense, difficulty to construct, etc. The issue is with Dreads.

Currently, I would quite happily take my single SuperCap against 3-4 Dread's, knowing that I would win the fight (Assuming they don't have support). Short range fit Dreads do close to SC DPS (with the Moros at just over 7k). However, given that the Siege cycle goes for 10 mins, and that they cannot receive reps, they are easy kills.

So, IMHO, the simple fix to supercaps is to buff Dreads.
* Shorten their Siege Cycle to 5 mins.
* Allow them to receive remote reps when they are in siege.

What will this do? It means a Dread/Carrier blob has a chance at beating a SuperCap Blob. It will give more of a roll to Carriers (to support Dreads). It will also mean that Dreads are not completely useless in large scale warfare.

Currently their ONLY role is to shoot at POS's. Unless you hold complete superiority its a huge risk to use them to shoot at Sov Structures/Cap Battles, a much larger risk than using a SuperCap.

A well organized Dread/Carrier fleet, could counter a Supercap fleet (depending on sizes etc.)


I like this ideal best. It feels alot like how a BS/Logic's fleet can handle a Dread/Carrier fleet so why should a Dread/Carrier fleet not be made able to handle a SC/Titain fleet?ugh

I have no exp. with Caps. I have no real love for them. But thats becouse I only like ships that I can take everywere with me. But the ideal looks sound to me.


This idea completely removes the buff to local repairers and makes carrier swarming that much more overpowered. The Resist concept keeps dreads vulnerable, but just boost their survivability. I prefer the resist.


Pages: first : previous : ... 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 ... : last (13)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only