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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.12.17 19:01:00 - [1]
 

So I finally got some free time before dinner now and the feeling that I have had enough time to think everything over so I can tell you the best parts without all the bull****. It won't be as elaborate as last time. In advance I can say however that I felt that it was very productive and, to quote dr. Eyjo, ' You really set things moving in the right direction with the june summit'.

I'm gonna go over all of the meetings and their topics and briefly elaborate. Any questions, feel free to ask here or pm, mail whatever.
Summary: lots of srs business, a good number of interesting bits, some VERY interesting bits, no ankh. CCP and EVE are changing for the better and we will keep pushing them. Don't get your hopes up for Incarna, but at least the spaceship part of EVE will get a lot better.

Day 1:

Core
We started off with a session about core and how it benefits EVE. Very informative, very NDA.

Incarna
We told them how Incarna without actual gameplay will be useless and I think we might have scared them a bit there. With good reason however, because just doing something because YOU think it is awesome is not a good reason. We also made clear that it would be unacceptable if anything you could do in station now would start taking much longer with Incarna just for the sake of it being 3d. (loading times etc)

Virtual goods
PLEX etc.

CSM tools
Some stuff about the CSM site, the elections, assembly hall etc.

Charity
Stuff about the PLEX for haiti and relted things and their plans for the future for the system.

Security measures
(ex) darius jonhson about eve security and the measures theyve taken to prevent account theft etc.


Day 2

EVE Economy
A very interesting talk about the EVE economy, RMT etc. What became clear is that there still is a ****ton of ISK flowing into the economy whilst not enough is exiting it and that they are looking at ways to change this. We discussed ways of dealing with botters and RMT's and the results of that and their existing efforts should become clear in the next year or so. I am still surprised how Eyjo can manage to talk about spaceship economy for 2 hrs with a straight face but he really knows his stuff.

User Interface
See devblawg. They actually listened to us back in feb and june and I was quite impressed.

Game balance
Some discussion about game balance and how to go about changing things. Not nearly as interesting as the title suggests.

Game design
This was a rather unorthodox session in which we sort of brainstormed about a few aspects of EVE that yielded some very interesting results. We were promised that these would be bundled and among other things would be made public at some point in the future.

Day 3

Post dominion 0.0 (3hrs!)
If I had to fly to Iceland only for this session I would have done it. We had gathered a list of items and prepared it a bit. Important things we went over were supercaps, force projection, empire building, profitability of 0.0, objectives for small gangs and of course sovereingty. This kind of was 'my' thing and after the minutes are released I'm going to elaborate on it greatly. This was by far the most useful session of the entire summit and I almost felt like hugging Arnard afterwards.

QA at CCP
A look at how ccp qa works. They took away a lot of reservations I had because this is apparantly extremely ****ing difficult.

CSM & fanfest 2011
We discussed the upcoming fanfest and how the CSM can help in making it more interesting without acting all ******ed like rockstars or anything. There will be much internal discussion bout this in the next months and I'm really looking forward to it.


ps. VOTE SOK 2011!!




Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.17 21:28:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Max Kolonko on 17/12/2010 21:29:06
Can you elaborate a little on RMT part of economic discussion? And Botting/Macroing for that matter?


edit: first :)

PC l0adletter
Posted - 2010.12.18 00:37:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz

We discussed ways of dealing with botters and RMT's and the results of that and their existing efforts should become clear in the next year or so.



18 months, amiright?

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.18 00:42:00 - [4]
 

It's going to take a while to transcribe the sessions and rough out our report. The economics session botting discussion revolved around ways CCP can improve bot detection, get a better handle on the scope of the problem and its effects on the economy, find economic attacks on the issue (reduce its cost effectiveness), and so on.

Here is my quick notes on the first two days:

Carbonation and Core - a useful session that shed some more light on what this team of devs do; well received devblogs will no doubt continue to emanate from this group.

Incarna - After having done a lot of framework development work, CCP is now finally able to turn to the task of implementing this aspect of their Ultimate Sci-Fi Simulator. But what this means is that any player who expects something epic this summer will likely be disappointed.

With respect to this initial release, my personal opinion is that they should ensure that the initial entry area is polished until it glows, as opposed to a more extensive release. After all, this will be the first time that all the new framework stuff is truly battle-tested, so some caution might be warranted.

CSM was united in insisting that no current gameplay be shifted into Incarna (to force interaction with Incarna, for example), and that players should have the option of entering Incarna when docking in a manner that is functionally equivalent to the current docking hangar display (such as, for example, looking out a window at your ship, or being on a balcony looking up at it). Furthermore, it was considered essential that there be no performance hit when doing a fast dock/ship change/undock as compared to the present day.

CCP seemed to be very receptive to these suggestions.

CCP's tentative plans for some additional gameplay that spans both Incarna and in-space EVE could be quite interesting IMHO, but it is too soon to make a solid judgement on them.

We further urged CCP to communicate to the players as much information about Incarna and their roadmap as soon as possible. However, one concern I have is that as this roadmap develops, ideas will be adopted just because they are "awesome". I am of the view that :awesome: is not a reason for doing something; it is the emergent result of hard work and careful thought.

As urged by the CSM in October, microtransactions will only be used for vanity items. Some of the vanity goods that were discussed will most likely be well-received.

The discussions on the EVE economy and RMT were quite detailed and also spawned additional discussions over food and drink. I look forward to seeing what develops from these.

Forums - the Next Generation look very nice, and have some features that I personally like a lot. I plan to lobby for additional features that will be of use to everyone but can also be adapted to assist CSM functions (ie: having cake and eating it too)

We had an unannounced, and productive session with Hilmar. However, one thing he said -- that CCP likes to throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks -- gave me some pause. That kind of approach is fine for a small company where the costs of failure are low. However, with over 600 employees, throwing stuff against the wall is not enough; you have to check and make sure that what is sticking to it isn't crap.

With respect to the new NEOCON feature, it seems very nice, and bears close inspection.

I was particularly impressed, once again, with the UI team, who came to our session incredibly well prepared. No doubt Bara and Katrin will in the near future not be the only members of the team to belong to the Order of the Spork, and they can expect some serious :csmlove: in the minutes.

I must however end on a disquieting note: at dinner on Wednesday, CCP Explorer and I found ourselves actually agreeing on some issues. This was extremely disturbing to both of us at the time, but I can report that by the next day, the improbability field collapsed to 1:1 and normality resumed.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.18 00:55:00 - [5]
 

Friday:

The 3-hour nullsec meeting with Arnar and Matt (Greyscale) was a really intense and productive one.

I'm not going to spill much about that meeting, except to say that the minutes of it will be extremely interesting, and that I now have a metric for a productive CSM meeting -- it's one where we try and convince the devs to do things that will render them unemployable, and they try and convince us to agree to things that will render us unelectable. I heard things in that meeting that I didn't expect to hear. Epic stuff, trust me.

The meeting with QA was also quite enlightening; Mynxee managed to skype in from a Starbucks, and was represented at the table by a small red pod-shaped sugar-substitute dispenser that acted as a non-maskable interrupt.

In the CSM issues meeting we played a really interesting development resources allocation game that will feed back into resource planning. I have some quibbles about the game-design of this game-design game, but it might have some broader applications if they ITERATE on it.

We finished the day with the Fanfest meeting; we advised them that the players are coming for face-time with the rock-stars (devs) and not the roadies (us). Some interesting new possibilities for fanfest activities were discussed.

captain foivos
Posted - 2010.12.19 18:55:00 - [6]
 

You did at least mention the part about the Catalyst model still being broken...

Right? Laughing

Just kidding, it sounds like stuff actually got done. And it sounds like they'll finally be revisiting the wonderful sov system they gave us in Dominion.

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.12.21 04:25:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Day 2

EVE Economy
A very interesting talk about the EVE economy, RMT etc. What became clear is that there still is a ****ton of ISK flowing into the economy whilst not enough is exiting it and that they are looking at ways to change this. We discussed ways of dealing with botters and RMT's and the results of that and their existing efforts should become clear in the next year or so. I am still surprised how Eyjo can manage to talk about spaceship economy for 2 hrs with a straight face but he really knows his stuff.



I find this disturbing on the premise that it give CCP 'a year or so' to do what they should have been doing, regarding botting as well as RMT operations, allows them to basically start doing that **** now. IMO If they were working the problem it wouldn't take more than a couple of weeks, maybe a month, to put together some data to show us how awesome they are at working it in a real devblog not like that spin control fluff they tossed out a few days ago.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.12.21 11:10:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Bhattran
Originally by: Sokratesz
Day 2

EVE Economy
A very interesting talk about the EVE economy, RMT etc. What became clear is that there still is a ****ton of ISK flowing into the economy whilst not enough is exiting it and that they are looking at ways to change this. We discussed ways of dealing with botters and RMT's and the results of that and their existing efforts should become clear in the next year or so. I am still surprised how Eyjo can manage to talk about spaceship economy for 2 hrs with a straight face but he really knows his stuff.



I find this disturbing on the premise that it give CCP 'a year or so' to do what they should have been doing, regarding botting as well as RMT operations, allows them to basically start doing that **** now. IMO If they were working the problem it wouldn't take more than a couple of weeks, maybe a month, to put together some data to show us how awesome they are at working it in a real devblog not like that spin control fluff they tossed out a few days ago.


One of the challenges is preventing false positives - they absolutely want to prevent banning innocent people. And it's not as if R&S and economics have nothing else to do :)

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.22 18:31:00 - [9]
 

sooo, when we expect some full report now?

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.22 18:49:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Max Kolonko
sooo, when we expect some full report now?


We will get it out as fast as humanly possibly. We are currently editing up drafts of the various meetings and circulating them for comments and correction.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.22 21:02:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
We discussed ways of dealing with botters and RMT's and the results of that and their existing efforts should become clear in the next year or so.



Shocked I get that 2011 is well next week but next year or so sounds like "well either 2011 or 2012 or maybe 2013".

The features on Incursion sound like anti botting features anyway, couldnt you just work on this and make it more workable.

For example, constellation effects and reducing bounty, I have noticed on Sisi that these constellations have sansha camping gates but I am yet to see if belts are camped too, perhaps you can make it in such a way that: -

A. Belts are camped too
B. Make the new Sansha race hard enough to not be solo'd (the rogue ones camping stuff)
C. Make incursions happen is HEAVY NPC territory (including macro mining)

I hope these are changes that will happen anyway as it will encourage both PvE and PvP but one of the changes I WANT is [C], the reason for this is, it is guaranteed any decent bot will move systems if an incursion is imminent.

Second thing I have noticed is a change to 'NPC' rats in general as a new feature, there isnt much talked about this but I think it is time rats jammed players.

I for one agree there is too much being sold and not enough being bought, there needs to be more ways to lose stuff which is why im glad Incursion is coming out but I am worried those dungeons will turn into wow dungeons where in eve people will just use mass numbers to achieve stuff.

Ryala Inbyari
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.12.23 16:36:00 - [12]
 

I just want to say thank you for the work everyone of the CSM is investing. Even if it seems to sound different sometimes, I think that the majority of Eve players appreciates that a lot. The current results and development plans speak already for themselves.

Erik Finnegan
Gallente
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
Posted - 2010.12.24 17:20:00 - [13]
 

Reading CSM reports is as if one had been a fly at the wall in the meeting room. I love it !

Jay Wareth
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:19:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos

A. Belts are camped too

Second thing I have noticed is a change to 'NPC' rats in general as a new feature, there isnt much talked about this but I think it is time rats jammed players.


A. Could be different in high sec, but belts are definitely affected by the incursion near FD on SiSi.

B. I have no idea why you think jamming has any effect on macros... but Guristas already do.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.27 17:22:00 - [15]
 

When I say Jammed I mean Warp Jammed :D I always figured jammed was the word to use ah well

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.01 14:06:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Max Kolonko
sooo, when we expect some full report now?


this, again :)

Its bean a whole Year now:P

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.02 10:36:00 - [17]
 

Drafts of minutes for almost all meetings have been completed, and the ones that haven't are just hanging fire on getting some materials from CCP. CCP should start their review and comments on 1/3/11 -- how long after that the minutes are released depends on the response.

We would have liked to get them out faster, but realistically, the holidays do put a crimp in the time available by people to work on this.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.02 14:31:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
We would have liked to get them out faster, but realistically, the holidays do put a crimp in the time available by people to work on this.

I hate CHRISTMAS!!!

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.01.04 21:16:00 - [19]
 

Trying to be patient, but getting antsy…

I'm especially interested in not only the position but the tone of both CCP and CSM when it comes to the topic of bots.

Not to point a finger at any one from either CCP or the CSM, but the cynic in me is screaming that having reps from the major alliances confronting CCP with the issue of bots is something akin to 2 ****** addicts deciding how to win the war on drugs.

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.04 23:01:00 - [20]
 

same here, especially after reading one of those (can't remember which part was it)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1436288

that the RMT/Botting wasn't as hot topic in there than i hoped for

Salpun
Gallente
Paramount Commerce
Posted - 2011.01.05 02:17:00 - [21]
 

TeaDaze passed the word that they sent the first release candidate back for a reedit so it might be a couple more days.

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2011.01.05 11:18:00 - [22]
 

Hopefully this won't delay the release too badly, but in their current state they don't accurately reflect the CSM concerns in a couple of sessions.

Once the edits are agreed there is a system taking a couple of days for the CCP community team to process and release them.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.07 23:50:00 - [23]
 

Just a quick headsup - the current Diabolical Plan™ is to release the minutes in 3 chunks, M/W/F. This is being done both the provide a bit of extra time to finish a couple of segments, as well as to group related items so that discussions of them won't get lost in the crowd.

Salpun
Gallente
Paramount Commerce
Posted - 2011.01.08 05:01:00 - [24]
 

Summit summeries with complementry dev blogs. Next week can't come soon enoughLaughing.

Salpun
Gallente
Paramount Commerce
Posted - 2011.01.08 05:03:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Salpun on 08/01/2011 05:04:12
Duplicate post please remove.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.08 16:24:00 - [26]
 

Like all promises made by CCP and the CSM, I'll believe it when I see it.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.01.09 12:04:00 - [27]
 

soon(tm) :D

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.10 05:13:00 - [28]
 

Is it Monday yet?

In the meantime, we can sit back and all agree that Console FPS > PC FPS !!

There is also an office pool going around on the time frame of when the minutes are released till we hit 100 pages of rage. Buy in is 100 million ISK. Secured by me.

Welcome to World of Darkness... er, I mean EVE Online: The patch we refer to as an expansion even though it still isn't finished.

Also those who still has a working gold copy of The Legend of Zelda represent!

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.10 16:46:00 - [29]
 

yep, its Monday. And yet nothing in terms on minutes... just kidding :P

any chance for time-frame on when today part will be released?

Unforgiven Storm
Posted - 2011.01.10 17:09:00 - [30]
 

24 days and counting
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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