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blankseplocked Supercap Docking... revisited
 
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2010.12.15 22:49:00 - [1]
 


As an advanced skillpoint player, it seems counterproductive to the game to be permanently assigned to a single ship. Frankly, itís a bad mechanic to imprisson pilots!!! There are many benefits to flying a supercap, but there are many risks too, and preventing a player from flying other ships is inappropriate. Creating alts, or POS CSAR provides some workarounds, but I think best solution is to allow supercaps to dock!

This has been brought up before, but I wanted to alter the previously suggested idea and put it in terms of a risk/reward framework.
http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=916822

To do dock a supercap, there needs to be a hefty price, an acceptable risk, as well as the obvious benefits.
As recommended in the previous post, the solution I see is a "docking service", which should replace the tier 3 office upgrade (which is worthless now). The docking service should be an attackable service. When the docking service is reinforced, no supercaps can dock or undock!!!

This provides:
1.) A significant cost: A tier 3 upgraded Outpost (monument) costs as much as two titans!!! I donít know of any tier 3 outposts constructed in all of eve!!!
2.) A significant risk: Your shiny ships have a reasonable chance of getting stuck in station!!! An enemy alliance can easily attack the docking service, thereby trapping any docked supercapitals until they are repaired to the standard 50% shields. Additionally, the alliance that ponyís up the isk for such a super pricy outpost has to worry about losing it!!!
3.) Reasonable benefits: Supercap pilots can now fly other ships. Supercaps are invulnerable and safe from attack while docked. Supercaps can utilize station repair, fitting, and possibly insurance services.

Now some details:
One necessity is that whenever a supercap undocks, it must do so in a kickout manner. This can be accomplished by giving it a special undock location just outside docking range (preferred), or by having it undock at too high a velocity for it to stop within docking range (easier to implement)!!! This will eliminate docking games, as a supercap takes forever to turn around and power back within docking range. It many ways, this makes undocking a supercap much more dangerous than logging one in at a POS.

OptionsÖ.
1.) Parking Limits: I donít see a need for limiting the number of supercaps docked in a station, especially if a reinforced docking service prevents them from undocking!
2.) Docked Supercap Graphics: I think it would be really kewl to see how many supercaps are docked, and see the visual image of them moored outside station. But this is not a necessity!
3.) Docking Permissions: I donít think separate docking permissions are needed for this. Standard docking rights apply very well. If you want neutrals to dock, but not their supercaps, set a small docking fee. Since the docking fee is based on the mass of a ship, a very small fee for a BS is a HUGE fee for a SC.

Finally, I think the re-introduction of a constellation capital to provide a couple days more buffer to losing a tier 3 outpost system would work really well with this idea. But thatís another topic.

Please respond with any additional thoughts you have!

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.12.15 23:07:00 - [2]
 

No docking.

Your whole argument is based on a false premise.

offcopy
Caldari
OffBeat Creations
Posted - 2010.12.16 00:17:00 - [3]
 

having a super cap i don't see the need to have them dock it would just allow docking games something i am against, the other thing i want to see is the super carrier sized up. from 3000 to 7000 minimum


ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.12.16 00:19:00 - [4]
 

Sorry, not supported.

If you wish to fly in [what more or less amounts to] your solopwnmobile then you must make/take the ultimate sacrifice/risk: fly it til you die or leave it in a place where there is a [remote] chance it can be stolen.

Other things to consider:

~ Cost is never a limiting factor for large alliances (case and point: the proliferation of capitals and supercapitals). If a mechanic is to their benefit (especially such a mechanic with a HUGE benefit) they will work towards it and get it, cost be damned.

~ Supercaps are already effectively invulnerable by virtue of their near total immunity to E-war, the massive buffer, and their very versatile DPS options (small, medium, "Ouchie", or "OMWTFBBQ"?). Why should they be given one of the few protections that other ships have against it? (weak argument, I know, but it's something to consider)

~ Supercaps by their very nature are SUPPOSED to be pains in the asses logistically (it's the tradeoff for being what they are). By giving them the ability to dock it becomes SIGNIFICANTLY easier to build and safely stockpile supercapitals. This will only make issues regarding their proliferation worse, not better.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2010.12.16 00:38:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: ShahFluffers
Sorry, not supported.

If you wish to fly in [what more or less amounts to] your solopwnmobile then you must make/take the ultimate sacrifice/risk: fly it til you die or leave it in a place where there is a [remote] chance it can be stolen.

Other things to consider:

~ Cost is never a limiting factor for large alliances (case and point: the proliferation of capitals and supercapitals). If a mechanic is to their benefit (especially such a mechanic with a HUGE benefit) they will work towards it and get it, cost be damned.

~ Supercaps are already effectively invulnerable by virtue of their near total immunity to E-war, the massive buffer, and their very versatile DPS options (small, medium, "Ouchie", or "OMWTFBBQ"?). Why should they be given one of the few protections that other ships have against it? (weak argument, I know, but it's something to consider)

~ Supercaps by their very nature are SUPPOSED to be pains in the asses logistically (it's the tradeoff for being what they are). By giving them the ability to dock it becomes SIGNIFICANTLY easier to build and safely stockpile supercapitals. This will only make issues regarding their proliferation worse, not better.

Itís more the risk rather than the cost that would be limiting to large alliances. I was aiming at a method that would subject supercaps to a reasonable risk when docked.
Skipping your second point, itís your final point that really hits what Iíve overlooked!!! Allowing supercarriers pilots docking locations (and eliminating their prison deterrent) would significantly increase their proliferation into the game. And given their overwhelming utility in current sov warfare, this is something we want to avoid, at least until they have a counter beyond more supercaps! This should probably be tabled until then.
Thank you for the thoughts.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.12.16 01:04:00 - [6]
 

Have them dock with a station by external ports, 10-15 per station maximum (think practically every spacestation in SciFi cinema to date).

When docked, give them X times raw EHP (docked = unoccupied = no active mods) and you have a solution.
Pilot gets to go to the toilet and his neighbours gets to break his toys.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.16 01:51:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Have them dock with a station by external ports, 10-15 per station maximum (think practically every spacestation in SciFi cinema to date).

When docked, give them X times raw EHP (docked = unoccupied = no active mods) and you have a solution.
Pilot gets to go to the toilet and his neighbours gets to break his toys.
No EHP multiplier. If anything, docked ship should be more vulnerable, not less. And that is achieved by having no skill boosts to HP and no active mods.

That way people can't steal it, but they sure can destroy it. I'd support such a feature.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.12.16 03:13:00 - [8]
 

Allowing someone to "lock" their supercaps seems reasonable, but they should never be safe.

mchief117
Posted - 2010.12.16 08:40:00 - [9]
 

Alowing supers to dock inside a station....... NO

Allowing supers to dock at a station , sure.

the mechanic would be simple , each station as X number of moring points, a super moves to one of these points and hits the dock function , this loads the piolet to a screen that shows the ship docked from a perspective of the station. at this time you do what you normaly do.

while you are docked you retain any and all bonus's your ship may have cause hey the ship is a super it never shuts down unlike ships that actualy enter a station.

Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.16 08:51:00 - [10]
 

Not supported.
No docking games with Supcaps.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.12.16 09:18:00 - [11]
 

Use it and lose it. Then you can dock.

I hope you take 10 super caps out with you.

Snowmann
Posted - 2010.12.16 09:19:00 - [12]
 

No docking for supercaps.

offcopy
Caldari
OffBeat Creations
Posted - 2010.12.16 11:03:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: ShahFluffers

~ Supercaps are already effectively invulnerable by virtue of their near total immunity to E-war, the massive buffer, and their very versatile DPS options (small, medium, "Ouchie", or "OMWTFBBQ"?). Why should they be given one of the few protections that other ships have against it? (weak argument, I know, but it's something to consider)


i hate to point out to you but you do know its not that hard for a gang to kill the super carrier stage 1 bubble sc
stage 2 kill its drones
stage 3 kill it

bigest problem is stage 1 most will warp off the moment anyone joins local just look at eve kills

i'm still a no on docking

Asuka Solo
Gallente
Stark Fujikawa
Posted - 2010.12.16 11:50:00 - [14]
 

I like the sound of this

+ 1

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.12.16 12:07:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 16/12/2010 12:13:45
I'm far from being able to fly such a nice ship, but i completely agree to docking possibility.
Now the rules of docking of super caps should be really penalising either on docking has undocking.
Price for time spent docking etc, prevent abuse from players being attacked, dam you've got a super cap deserve it Laughing

I've already stopped training BS for other reasons (snipeomglolz probecandie) and I've not planed at all going further than sub cab because of this docking problem, and penalises me from the end game ship type.

So +1

Quote:
Supercaps by their very nature are SUPPOSED to be pains in the asses logistically (it's the tradeoff for being what they are). By giving them the ability to dock it becomes SIGNIFICANTLY easier to build and safely stockpile supercapitals. This will only make issues regarding their proliferation worse, not better


Rather see 50 SC punching 50 other SC each other than 150 snipe bs against 200drakes and all those pussies games eve community loves that much "everything for nothing or the least expensive", yeah lets all fly cruisers and battle-cruisers....dumbasses

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.16 12:22:00 - [16]
 

I will +1 this because i am against any game mechanics that forces you to have alts. Stuff ranging from gatecamps to cynos already make you really want to have an alt, but with supercaps it isnt even a choice anymore.

However first supercaps need a nerf.

JA jun
Posted - 2010.12.16 12:49:00 - [17]
 

Make it over station upgrade with a new Outpost Improvement and new Outpost Upgrade Platform
the new Platform give a extra Tier 1,2,3 and 4 slot to the Outpost


  • Tier 1: max 5 Docking Slots

  • Tier 2: max 10 Docking Slots

  • Tier 3: max 15 Docking Slots

  • Tier 4: max 20 Docking Slots


at Tier 4 only the Super Cap Improvement can be placed and every upgrade need the lower upgrade to be installed on the Outpost.

Supper Carriers and Titans than can only be docked on player build Outposts only, no docking on NPC Bulid Outposts.

The Upgrade show a extra docking Array near of the outpost that can be locked and attacked like the Outpost Services.
If the Upgrade is offline non of the docked ship can be undock.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:03:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: offcopy
i hate to point out to you but you do know its not that hard for a gang to kill the super carrier stage 1 bubble sc
stage 2 kill its drones
stage 3 kill it

It is actually not that easy, and practically impossible for a 'gang', I'll run the numbers for you.

50-100M EHP on standard core-xxx fitted SCs .. a 100 man gank BS fleet (1k dps each) needs 10-20 minutes to kill it.
Warping off is the least of your worries, best case scenario you have fifteen minutes to get the mail.

The immense brick potential of the things is one of the reasons why the capital blobs are increasing daily, it is the only way to kill the bloody things reliably.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:34:00 - [19]
 

this is one of the better proposals for SC docking that I've seen.

The devil will be in the detail of the attackable upgrade:
>if it's too easy to kill, no-one will dock
>if it's too hard to kill, it will be OP

I like the concept of being able to hit a stationary brick rather than one that can run away/log off, it's just that I don't think it's going to be possible to balance satisfactorily.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:05:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Glyken Touchon
this is one of the better proposals for SC docking that I've seen.

The devil will be in the detail of the attackable upgrade:
>if it's too easy to kill, no-one will dock
>if it's too hard to kill, it will be OP

I like the concept of being able to hit a stationary brick rather than one that can run away/log off, it's just that I don't think it's going to be possible to balance satisfactorily.


Thank you for the compliment. The devil's always in the details... balancing the attackable upgrades has a flip side too...
>if itís too easy to kill, itís probably too easy to repair.
>if itís too hard to kill, repairing it will be quite annoying!!
I think the idea of attacking a docked ship would require installing RF timers to make it timezone playable. And I really donít think this game needs more RF timers!!!!

Zilberfrid
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:42:00 - [21]
 

Mooring could be allowed (better word then docking) on the outside of a POS shield. You'd have no active modules and no skill bonus to ehp.

I still hate it. You'd get 1% hull damage each minute, now it seems more like it.


 

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