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Mindill
Posted - 2010.12.17 09:15:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Mindill on 17/12/2010 09:35:06
Edited by: Mindill on 17/12/2010 09:34:52
Edited by: Mindill on 17/12/2010 09:30:02
What about removing Killmails (-boards)?

Many pilots kill just for them, they are just hunters and gatheres and want to be top-notch on their killboards without even thinking about what they are doing to the game (and others). All those reward systems in games just distract from the game itself.

ed: imho eve players need some kind of ethics/codex where the majority complies with. reward systems are counter-productive

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.12.17 09:52:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Zendoren on 17/12/2010 09:53:33
Originally by: SkinSin
Edited by: SkinSin on 17/12/2010 09:11:36
Originally by: Zendoren
However, this brings up an interesting philosophical question. Should people who don't even put the time and effort to even live and work in low-sec in its current form have the right to dictate how it should function in the future? I say no!

And I say yes.
If you don't get the opinions of the people that want to move to low sec (but don't for various reasons) you will never be able to implement the features that will encourage them into lowsec.

One method that will NOT work, for instance, is to make low sec more rewarding in terms of ISK. Making gate guns uncampable might work as it would mean that gate camping goes away.

But if you solve these:
1) It's not fun being ganked on a gate by 10 people when you just wanted to see what lowsec was like.
2) It's not fun to try and find a decent pvp challenge only to find that the only pvp you can find is actually pvpppppppppppppppppp
3) It's not fun to have to scan every 2 seconds in order to avoid getting blobbed.
4) The risks will always outweigh the benefits as long as PvE fits are radically different to PvP fits.

Then more people might come to lowsec.


I acknowledge your point about getting non-low-sec players opinions as these are the players that we wont to attract, however, that same argument can be used to justify not allowing those opinions to be used as the main influencing factor in the changes to low-sec. For example, your argument would justify a WOW player that has only played EVE for 2 weeks to dictate CCPs changes to the overall game to allow him to enjoy more and detract from the current player base. Which is directly comparable to saying that a pilot who has only visited and/or traveled trough low-sec should decide how it should function moving forward.

Also, increasing the DPS on gate guns is a bad idea. By increasing the Gate-Gun DPS you are basically increasing the min size of the gate camp on a low-sec gate. No matter what you do, as long as concord is not in low-sec, people will camp gates! If you increase DPS you increase the size of the fleet that will still be sitting off the gate. More people allow for more RR in the fleet and more people the spread the gate-gun DPS around allowing them to camp regardless of the gate-gun DPS. Need to reduce the blobs in low-sec not increase them. If you want to improve the situation on gates, might I suggest lowering or even remove gate-guns all together. This will reduce the overall size of the fleets on gates and reduce the size of overall fleets in engagements in low-sec. Allowing for, lets say an anti-pirate corp, to come in and keep the gate clear. This might seem counter-intuitive for someone who lives in high sec or even 0.0.

SkinSin
Posted - 2010.12.17 10:09:00 - [63]
 

Sorry, yes, I wasn't trying to imply that gate gun damage would solve the issue, just that it might alleviate it. I don't think that there is a quick and easy fix to lowsec, but I do get the distinct feeling that the only reason lowsec is currently broken is because of the behaviour of some of the people that live there.


My Postman
Posted - 2010.12.17 10:11:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Enord Loej
Edited by: Enord Loej on 15/12/2010 21:05:48
Low sec is pretty much pointless for most of EVE. If you want high rewards and low risk, go to null sec. If you want low rewards and low risk go to high sec. If you want high risk and low rewards, go to low sec.


This is by far the best answer describing the status quo of lowsec.

As a highsec miner/missionrunner/manufacturer let me add:

Would NEVER EVER take my hulk to lowsec, and when nocx is hitting 1000 isk/unit i would´nt go for it, for the simple fact that i might not be able to get my valuables out. Such a venture is calling for a sudden death. Be it at the belts, at a station, or at a gate when trying to leave.

Would NEVER take my ishtar or domi for missioning out there, for the simple fact that both (and the domi by far) are too slow to avoid/escape a gate camp. Fighting the rats aligned to celestial/planet/whatever and spamming d-scan is by far too annoying to cover the higher payouts.
When beeing disturbed (and you will be!) you are losing time, maybe hours. Can make more in highsec.

Well, i use a nearby lowsec station for research BPO and invention as everybody knows how long you have to wait for a free slot i highsec. So i´m used to brake gatecamps in my covops/interceptor/blockade runner. Not a big deal in such a ship. But there is always this bad feeling with +5´s in my head. Have´nt lost them yet, but one day when lag and disco may unite, who knows.

TL,DR: As quoted poster said, much to dangerous for too low payout.

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2010.12.17 10:22:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 17/12/2010 10:28:22

There was a really good 15+ pages thread about this a few months ago.

And yes, the main argument is that the risk vs reward balance just makes lowsec useless.
The ease of scanning down people after the redesign of probing, the fact that PvE setups and PvP setups are so widely different and tankable gate and station guns don't really help.

Personally I've been there a lot, just on my way through though, to do - mainly courier - missions in fast and agile ships and I had a R+D agent in lowsec for a while. I've never been ganked and never had troubles escaping from gate camps. I never accept any missions that would bring my battleship or battlecruiser to lowsec though.

- Of course the main and primary question is if we actually want to make lowsec useful - or are we ok with it being a barren wasteland that hardly anyone has a reason to go to.

I'm also curious about what CCP actually thinks about the role of lowsec.

Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
Posted - 2010.12.17 15:30:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: rain9441
CCP could have fixed low sec years ago, they haven't, so they never will.
Not true. They fixed learning skills didn't they? Only took the better part of a decade to put in a fix that probably took 25 minutes to code, but they did fix it. Given, lowsec problems are slightly more complicated than "Remove Learning", so we should see some progress on this right around the time our grandchildren are collecting Social Security.

Marcias Rex
Posted - 2010.12.17 16:21:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Low-sec should be made what it was intended to be, an area where risk was higher than high-sec, but lower than 0.0, and reward fell between the two too.

There's a very easy way of achieving that too. It's very simple!

Make TRAVEL in low-sec protected, i.e. CONCORD is active at gates and at stations, but ACTIVITY not protected.

Someone shooting you at a station or gate? No problem. CONCORD blows them up!
Someone shooting you at a belt, exploration site or mission pocket? That's your problem. Handle them yourself!

Problem COMPLETELY solved! Low-sec would be at the right danger and reward level, and could perform it's intended function as a place to get ones combat feet wet with the right level of risk.

Cheap gate/station-gankers would be removed, and REAL pirates (the ones hunting down their target) would get more targets.

Now hear the cheap gate-gankers start their poo-poo'ing Cool


+1

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.12.17 16:30:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Zendoren
Edited by: Zendoren on 15/12/2010 22:55:29
Originally by: rain9441
Originally by: Doddy
Lo-sec is broken because there isn't enough buckets of isk lying around


Or because there are too many buckets of isk lying around in high sec. L4 missions ftw.


On top of that, too many buckets lying around 0.0 *cough* moons *cough*.

Low-sec is how eve should be. Fight to survive and sale the booty for isk!


Clearly there are no moons in lo sec .....

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.12.17 16:39:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Zendoren
Edited by: Zendoren on 15/12/2010 22:55:29
Originally by: rain9441
Originally by: Doddy
Lo-sec is broken because there isn't enough buckets of isk lying around


Or because there are too many buckets of isk lying around in high sec. L4 missions ftw.


On top of that, too many buckets lying around 0.0 *cough* moons *cough*.

Low-sec is how eve should be. Fight to survive and sale the booty for isk!


Clearly there are no moons in lo sec .....


Clearly! As you have to be a 0.0 space holding alliance to keep the few there are in Low-Sec!

Funesta
Posted - 2010.12.17 16:47:00 - [70]
 

Or you could change the way security status works, so that shooting at a person with negative sec status is allowed with no sec penalty in low sec. Then people could viably hunt pirates without also becoming pirates.

Doesn't deprive the lowsec people of their precious station/gate camps. Doesn't keep them from shooting any passing noob. Means that they might have to contend with a real fight more often, though. Means alliances would be able to actually secure lowsec areas and use them for a profit. Gives the pirates more potential targets, but means they won't be the top of the lowsec food chain any more.

Haraldhardrade
Amarr
Pax Amarr
Posted - 2010.12.17 17:26:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Pricer Chekar
I live in 0.0, for 2 reasons.

1- High sec is fairly boring and lacks freedom.
2- Low sec is completely broken.



Null sec not boring? LOL



Quote:

You have groups of people in BS and Tech III's perma camping gates in stations, able to permanently tank the guns. On top of that, the 0.1 systems are usually safer than the 0.4.


Unlike the alliance blobs who are so much more fun and interesting? LOL!

Quote:

You have 0.0 fleets who fly through 0.4 on their daily roams, not hindered at all by the "low security"


Awesome , tell us more.

Quote:

Aren't low security systems supposed to have security? Of course not concord, but maybe guns that prevent permanent camping by 2 people? or gates that don't allow criminals (Global Timer) to jump?

This is just an observation from a null sec pilot.


Low security systems are supposed to have low security? This thread is terrible.

Corvus Dove
Caldari
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2010.12.17 17:45:00 - [72]
 

If your complaint is gatecamps, what is your thought on just having more k-space wormholes that go directly from lowsec to high and back?

Yazus Kor
Kotharat Logistics
Posted - 2010.12.17 18:04:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Pricer Chekar
Post


Have the balls to post with your main, and people might consider listening.

Huuow
Posted - 2010.12.17 18:33:00 - [74]
 

I play Eve occasionally and at very random times. I don´t want to join a corp and leave those people with the illusion that they can count on me. My internet is a bit unstable too... A solution for me, and maybe even the majority of high sec players, could be: to hire AI mercenaries... fitted with player style ships, they jump when you jump and engage when you´re engaged... maybe, so that you don´t get the feeling of having just more and bigger drones at your side, they could get some personalities... maybe they flee when you engage something too big, whatever...
and inb4 "then everyone buys his personal army", this could be regulated with the price you pay per hour...

Could Imagine this would higher low sec traffic... or even make carebears hunt pirates :)

Sraik Doubter
Posted - 2010.12.17 21:38:00 - [75]
 

I like low-sec, but also find that the risk/reward aspect is a bit unbalanced. A fair number of folks seem to use low-sec as a PvP playground and I personally think that this is great. The issues that I have with the way low sec works and some possible ideas are:
1) Few potential victims/combatants other than gates (not a big fan of gate camp/gankage) - Like others have said, radically increase reward for ratting, mining, complexes, etc. This may also have an advantage of moving some of the fight away from the gates.
2) Gate/guns - Because a lot of fighting currently revolves around gates, the diversity of ships usable in low-sec suffers. I would love to to see frigs and inties participating in fights at gates and stations. Torn on whether they should be untankable or speed tankable (briefly).
3) Sec status mechanics - The hit you get from PvP in low-sec is eventually becomes a chore to recover from given the means available there (assuming you also like traveling to high sec). This seems inconsistent with the lack of police/concord there. Perhaps better ratting opportunities would help with this.

Just some stray thoughts; snipe away.

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.12.17 21:43:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Zendoren on 17/12/2010 21:45:01
Originally by: Funesta
Or you could change the way security status works, so that shooting at a person with negative sec status is allowed with no sec penalty in low sec. Then people could viably hunt pirates without also becoming pirates.

Doesn't deprive the lowsec people of their precious station/gate camps. Doesn't keep them from shooting any passing noob. Means that they might have to contend with a real fight more often, though. Means alliances would be able to actually secure lowsec areas and use them for a profit. Gives the pirates more potential targets, but means they won't be the top of the lowsec food chain any more.


I had this idea for a while now, but never rly had the gonads to put it up for public scrutiny.

Below is a ruff outline of my idea of what I like to call Dynamic low-sec. Remember that this only applies to system that are classified as low-sec today:

1) Security in low-sec systems constantly decrease over time and this decrease is applied over downtime daily.
2) All PVP kills with victims that have positive security status will result with a security decrease to the system that the kill was in.
3) All PVP kills with victims that have negative security status will result with a security increase to the system that the kill was in.
4) Killing local NPC rats will increase the security of the system they were killed in; however, they do not have as much of an effect as a PVP kill would have in the same system.
5) Each level of security has a benefit and a disadvantage to anti-pirates and pirates respectively.
6) Increasing the security status of a system will disrupt moon mining when security has reached a high enough point. (This can be mitigated with the introduction of a retainer system for low-sec, much like solv is to null sec. If you are a retainer of the space, your moons will not feel the effects of the security increase)

If this idea is well taken and there is a good discussion on here about this idea. I will start refining it and post an official thread for this idea in the assembly hall.

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2010.12.17 21:44:00 - [77]
 

Meh, just let sentry guns increase damage over time when active, with a long cooldown. Let's say they start out at 176 DPS (or whatever it is right now) and damage increases by 2% every volley. That means roughly double the DPS after every minute.



Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.12.17 21:46:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Pan Crastus
Meh, just let sentry guns increase damage over time when active, with a long cooldown. Let's say they start out at 176 DPS (or whatever it is right now) and damage increases by 2% every volley. That means roughly double the DPS after every minute.





as said previously, that would increase the size of the gate camp blob...... and who wants blobs in low-sec.....

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2010.12.17 22:00:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Zendoren
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Meh, just let sentry guns increase damage over time when active, with a long cooldown. Let's say they start out at 176 DPS (or whatever it is right now) and damage increases by 2% every volley. That means roughly double the DPS after every minute.





as said previously, that would increase the size of the gate camp blob...... and who wants blobs in low-sec.....


Increasing the size would reduce the number, the players have to come from somewhere.

Big blobs attract other big blobs more than small blobs, so more (non-gank) fights would happen.

I don't see a drawback.

Shadow Lord77
Posted - 2010.12.17 22:41:00 - [80]
 

Space Pinata has many good points.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:28:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: TimMc on 18/12/2010 16:49:56
Lowsec is ok but this thread is stupid.

Gates are where most pvp in eve happens no matter where you are. Empire wars camp gates, pirates camp gates, nullsec people camp gates with sling bubbles.

Interceptors being able to tank guns is stupid. Lowsecs sentry guns are good at a few things, one of which is preventing permanently being there without logistics, and the other is preventing interceptors from locking down everything. Currently frigates, and largely cruisers can travel through lowsec because anything that can tank the guns usually is slow locking and slow moving.

Risk vs Reward? Well its crap if you operate completely in lowsec. If you live on the fringe like me though, you get free docking access at edge of hostile space for nullsec roaming, and occasionally you get idiots docking haulers or lone ships to kill for free. Get enough people in local and you can even start mining the grav and drug sites.


If anything, I would place more level 5 agents in lowsec - but the space is ok as is.



Edit: Increasing dps from sentries will change very little, most good pirates sit on warp ins anways 500-5000km off the gate.

Baudolino
Gallente
Royal Crimson Lancers
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:45:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Baudolino on 17/12/2010 23:45:12
Alot of people say solo pvp is dead.
Alot of people say low-sec is broken.

To me it appears they speak to the same issue.

The main problem is that we killed the low-sec population back in 05-06. After that it never really bounced back and since then low-sec have been dual-triple boxing players or pirate gangs doing station and gate camping.

I don`t really have an answer, but i really think it`s important to ask the right questions..

We, the piates, farmed the carebears too hard. The population collapsed..

So how do we bring it back up?
and how do we avoid taxing it back to collapse again?

As far as low-sec goes i think those are significant questions.

In continuation it`s also important to note that CCP through media and expansions has always focused on 0.0 and fleet warfare, so it should not be much of a surprise that solo/small and low-sec has become an almost forgotten limbo between 0.0 and high-sec.

Conditions for Solo/small-gang ops and low-sec space have changed dramatically for the worse both as a result of player conduct and CCP policies and i`m at a loss as to how a change can be brought about that triumphs over both.

PS:
Don`t say solo is fine and low-sec is fine if you haven`t played the game since 05 at the very least, because you have no idea what you`re talking about.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:48:00 - [83]
 

The fact that people can make 70 mil an hour running level 4's in high sec is the #1 reason why low sec is broken.

Electra Mercy
Posted - 2010.12.18 00:29:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Electra Mercy on 18/12/2010 00:29:40
It will be interesting to see the effect Incursion has on low sec. When testing on Sisi, it looked like the incursions we mostly in low sec. It also looked like the Sansha's Nation was hanging around the gate. Gate campers will become NPC targets if this is how it is when finally released. Sansha's Nation invading all of low sec could make things interesting.

Manssell
Posted - 2010.12.18 01:11:00 - [85]
 

Well for my .02isk (probably worth only .01isk) as someone who’s still rather noobish (I got lots to learn still) I pretty much live in low sec now, and while I think it’s O.K. as is, I do see some merit to many of the suggestions.

Obviously the risk v reward is out of whack, and the bounty system is junk. But until a PVE fit is the same as a PVP fit I really don’t see boosting missions in lowsec to be much of a help. But I do like many of the suggestions here. Particularly the changes to sec status hit from attacking a player with low security status, and changes to gate guns. The first of those is a bit beyond me going any specifics (just now getting familiar with taking sec hits), but when I did fist start to “go on the offensive” I was very hesitant because of my sec status I need for missions. As for gate guns, perhaps it’s not a case of either lowering damage for all in lowsec, or boosting them all, but a combination.

What I’m thinking is to boost guns (or probably add navies) to just the gates that are leading to high sec. Then lowering the damage done by the rest. This (could!) allow for more players to first get into low sec and learn their way, without stopping (even encouraging) PVP from the rest of the gates. Since this means the easy choke points would be harder to camp, it would encourage campers to split up on the other gates in a system. That with the lower gate gun damage would encourage smaller camps too which may lead to people fighting those camps (or fainting a fight to open another gate up… bait industrials?). So more PVP? Just an idea.

Also from hearing what has happened to SOV mechanics, I would suggest before any changes get made (if ever) to lowsec CCP has to promise to revisit those changes 6-8 months latter to reevaluate how they are working.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.12.18 01:22:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 18/12/2010 01:26:03
Originally by: Baudolino
The main problem is that we killed the low-sec population back in 05-06. After that it never really bounced back and since then low-sec have been dual-triple boxing players or pirate gangs doing station and gate camping.

I don`t really have an answer, but i really think it`s important to ask the right questions..
We, the pirates, farmed the carebears too hard. The population collapsed..

So how do we bring it back up?
and how do we avoid taxing it back to collapse again?
*snip*

What happened that the carebears could be over-farmed in the first place?

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
05-06 we had a population of 12-24k online (I started OCT/2005 btw)
fast forward, 45k is the norm today.

We also had several changes to the mechanics I have not the slightest clue about the influence on the 'old balance'. Just to name a few:
- total revamp of probing
- several generations of weapon/equipment/ship nerfs and boosts (for example: HP buff, nano nerf, etc)
- complete new mechanics like SCs, Jumpbridges
- WTZ
- deadspace doesn't affect probing any more
- 2.500 new w-space systems
- undocking throws you out at plus/minus 15deg instead of 0 deg

Just higher rewards or changes to the camp-spots won't cut it I'm afraid.

kerjin
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.18 03:45:00 - [87]
 

Try visiting losec, there are no gate camps.

Try jumping into hisec with gcc, that is a stupid overpowered gatecamp!

Biggest reason not to visit losec is the security status penalty, just get rid of it.

It has no effect on "piracy", it just discourages ordinary players from pvping there.

Also, nerf hisec ofc, its hello kitty in space, a complete mismatch with the spirit of the game.

Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
Posted - 2010.12.18 04:03:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Baudolino
We, the piates, farmed the carebears too hard. The population collapsed.
What exactly scares you about bear farming? It seems basically everybody agrees that there's virtually nothing to be afraid of in high sec, thus the attraction to anybody looking for reliable Isk streams.

But really, what would stop pirates from re-farming an influx of missioners/miners/etc to extinction again? I think making lowsec travel less of a crap shoot is important, but the basis is going to be have to be changing the nature of non-PvP activities in lowsec. There needs to be an environment in which pirates hesitate to gank, because the gank might not turn out in their favor.

This hesitation needs to be resistant to manpower changes, ie. even PvPPPPPPPPPP needs to have an element of danger to it. To have otherwise is just to replace solo-roam pirate ganking with small gang roam pirate ganking - no actual change. How exactly? Not entirely sure. Sleeper style AI in missions is a start I think.

Rats warping in based on the number/power of ships in the mission/belt?
Empire Navies warping in if the local grid has too many outlaws in it?
CONCORD on gates/stations preventing pirates from camping thoroughfares?

Increasing highsec risk is a good avenue to explore as well. I'd personally vote for something along the lines of mandatory FW participation for highsec residents; essentially turning highsec into a better analogy of NPC 0.0.

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.12.18 04:22:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 18/12/2010 05:20:14
You guys made of low/null sec a desert and now want to do the same with high sec...

If you can't take some lessons from your past actions i'm afraid if CCP listens once more to you that is the entire Eve populations that will decrease.

And then you'll say "CCP bunch of incapable, brings us targets!!"

Tsk tsk tsk

To your question
Quote:
What about after you get a fitted 2 billion isk marauder ganked in your mission by 8 guys?


I would answer: Already lost a few navy's full pve love and yes that hurts. Now that i'm rid or training for bs has somethin that can only snipe/mission or the candie of any 3man gank, that i'm rid of trying to play, i'm training for unprobable ships.

And hope/invite all pve'rs to do it so. And the time come of pirate tears bets back and that once again CCP listen your whines gives you another way to probe me, then i'll get back to my missions in high sec.

I'm pretty sure that i'm gonna get flamed about this but i dont give a **** about it.

Olleybear
Minmatar
I R' Carebear
Posted - 2010.12.18 04:53:00 - [90]
 

Zendorea/Zendoren:

Glad to see you went from just laughing to actually contributing an idea of your own to the conversation.

TLDR: Make it very difficult to probe missioners/plexers and the lowsec population will increase without any other help. It was like this once before and that is proof enough it would work again.

Low-sec wasn't *broken* a few years ago. We had a thriving population of carebears, at least in the Molden Heath low sec cluster. This was before warp to zero on gates and stations. Pirates could come to Molden Heath and actually have a shot of shooting miners. Miners mined the low sec belts, scary I know. Carebears ran missions, carebears hauled goods, carebears had multibillion isk ships and carebears ratted in the belts.

All of this was in low sec at one point. This needs repeating. We had tons of carebears in low sec a few years ago. Now, we do not.

As had been said by someone else in the thread, if we are ok with low sec being a wasteland, theres no point in changing it. But I think we all know that people want targets.

We dont have to change tons of stuff, we dont have to increase gate gun damage, we dont need concord or navies in low sec. Why? Because years ago we didn't those things and lowsec thrived.

The probe changes decimated the lowsec carebear population all by itself. It wasn't too much farming by pirates. It was the ability to scan people out with ease in missions and then in anomalies that made the carebears move to hi-sec and 0.0 where its safer. Thats the single reason we have what we do today in low sec.


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