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Captain Mastiff
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:12:00 - [181]
 

Edited by: Captain Mastiff on 16/12/2010 15:15:00
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Originally by: Captain Mastiff
Edited by: Captain Mastiff on 16/12/2010 14:50:12
Originally by: Riedle
Thanks for the explanation CCP.

I am one of those that had a remap coming up soonish, but I am not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. So thanks for the patch and the explanation wrt to remap.

To the rest of you, HTFU.


Ah well, I am one of those who are concerned why I receive a pair of socks for Christmas as a "gift" where as a large portion of Eve received a pair of socks and boxer shorts.

Can't deal with people complaining, HTFU

I would of quite liked training for Leadership based skills using the free remap but finding out my anniversary date is now wiped renders that all completely ****ing useless now. So once again thanks CCP for giving a gift which unbalances it for a bunch of people.


So if they gave NO gift, you'd have been happier? Is it a case of "If I can't have it then noone should" bawbaw etc. lots of things in EVE have been and continue to be unfair, it's the way of EVE. How **** would this game suddenly be if CCP said "Right, we're fed up of moaning everytime we try do something for people, so from now on we wont give anything away, no ships no maps no nothing ever again because if it's not 100% fair to 100% of the people there's always someone complaining, it's much safer to just never do anything good."


It's more a case of...

Don't give out "free" gifts if it isn't balanced. In this case it clearly isn't balanced if people are able to stack remaps because their anniversary date expired a before this update and now have 2 remaps. Where as anyone after only has one and can't remap for another year afterwards.

It's a gift to some of population of Eve and a huge disadvantage to the rest. Sure I would of loved to remap for leadership skills and then remap back to standard Perception/Willpower though I can't without shafting my SP/Hour on other skills unlike a large portion of Eve who now have 2 remaps available.

So maybe it should be more like this for CCP in their discussion.
"Will this "free" gift effect people negatively and or give other people the upper hand?" Mr CCP 1
"Yes" MR CCP 2
"Don't implement it then, lets think this one through before relasing it" MR CCP 1
"Sure, it will be fairer on everyone else" MR CCP 2

Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: Captain Mastiff
Ah well, I am one of those who are concerned why I receive a pair of socks for Christmas as a "gift" where as a large portion of Eve received a pair of socks and boxer shorts.


You know, considering that in this metaphorical Christmas 'socks' means 'between 0 and 5.4 million skillpoints, a free ship as well as potentially some attribute points'


You clearly haven't understand the entire topic then.

Nothing to do with reimbursed skillpoints. It's to do with the fact some people have been given a bonus which allows them to have 2 remaps. Where it is impossible for the likes of myself any many other people to get 2 remaps as my anniversary date was due after the update.

dickbott
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:12:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: Captain Mastiff
Ah well, I am one of those who are concerned why I receive a pair of socks for Christmas as a "gift" where as a large portion of Eve received a pair of socks and boxer shorts.


You know, considering that in this metaphorical Christmas 'socks' means 'between 0 and 5.4 million skillpoints, a free ship as well as potentially some attribute points', i think you're coming across as a bit needy

also, assuming you had a metaphorical mother in this metaphorical christmas, she'd be non-metaphorically telling you to be happy with the gifts you got rather than angry about the ones you didn't. Then everyone would drink hot cocoa and understand the true meaning of Christmas.


EVE is a competitive pvp game.

Giving some people an advantage over others is unfair.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:19:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Captain Mastiff
Edited by: Captain Mastiff on 16/12/2010 14:50:12
Originally by: Riedle
Thanks for the explanation CCP.

I am one of those that had a remap coming up soonish, but I am not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. So thanks for the patch and the explanation wrt to remap.

To the rest of you, HTFU.


Ah well, I am one of those who are concerned why I receive a pair of socks for Christmas as a "gift" where as a large portion of Eve received a pair of socks and boxer shorts.

Can't deal with people complaining, HTFU

I would of quite liked training for Leadership based skills using the free remap but finding out my anniversary date is now wiped renders that all completely ****ing useless now. So once again thanks CCP for giving a gift which unbalances it for a bunch of people.


Dude, in short - if this issue causes you this much grief in real life then consider yourself to be a very blessed person.

Get over it. Life isn't fair.

Suck it up or GTFO.

Evil Rose
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:19:00 - [184]
 

first off: thanks for the free respec!

unfortunately i have to wait until april to remap even if my attributes rly needs to be adjusted.

Cursan Voran
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:21:00 - [185]
 

The points I could make about the lack of fairness and the poor implementation have already been covered so...


[begin emo-rage]

Is there anything :ccp: cant **** up?

[/end emo-rage]


Glad I got that out ugh

Wiki Leaks
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:23:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Captain Mastiff
Ah well, I am one of those who are concerned why I receive a pair of socks for Christmas as a "gift" where as a large portion of Eve received a pair of socks and boxer shorts.


I'm interested in this.

My birthday is December 24th. This means I have grown up receiving just socks, while others receive socks and boxer shorts later.

I would be interested in knowing when the aggrieved folk's birthdays fall. I'm thinking they are maybe June or July babies. Maybe even as late as September.

Has anybody been viciously robbed of a few days/months of remap ability and has a christmas birthday and is still whining?

Science demands an answer.

Isorath
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:24:00 - [187]
 

Really, the only fair thing to do is to have the remap timer go down to when it was supposed to before the "free remap" was given out... if it can't be easily programmed then at least make it petitionable or something. I really do feel like I got shafted :(

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:24:00 - [188]
 

Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 16/12/2010 15:24:21
Originally by: ****bott
EVE is a competitive pvp game.

Giving some people an advantage over others is unfair.


EVE is a competitive pvp game in several more ways than just skillpoints, brotato. No one's character is going to fade to obsolescence because of a lack of an extra neural remap.

Commander Phoenix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:24:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Claire Voyant

I see it now. Do you have any more information you can supply?


When was the last remap?
over a year ago.

What did it look like before Dec 15 DT?
1 remap available

What did it look like after Dec 15 DT?
3 remaps available

When was that screenshot taken?
after DT today

How old is the character?
2009.06.08

Are you sure that that character has remapped in the past? (given that it is remapped for drones, I'm thinking you would remember that decision, but I'll ask anyway.)
I have remapped on this character. I can't have those attributes unless I remap.


I have 4963909 SP on that char (+219613 to allocate)

Captain Mastiff
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:25:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Captain Mastiff on 16/12/2010 15:27:22
Originally by: Riedle

Dude, in short - if this issue causes you this much grief in real life then consider yourself to be a very blessed person.

Get over it. Life isn't fair.

Suck it up or GTFO.


Wat?

I imagine you are a member of the 2 remap side. It's not causing me grief in my real life, just causing a large imbalance in a controlled enviroment AKA a game which can be altered. If this was real life sure people would suck it up and get on with it because that's life and it can't be changed.

This is a game, CCP can quickly alter it. If we look at it another way and you lost an extremely expensive ship from an exploit or bug you would be complaining to CCP straight away and wouldn't go "Life isn't fair".

For those trolling or unable to comprehend the idea of constructive criticism.

The fact is a lot of members have got shafted over a free gift, if you were in that position where you are at a major disadvantage over other people you wouldn't be happy.

Petra Katell
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:29:00 - [191]
 

I don't really care, but I gotta admit, this wasn't well thought out at all.

Thanks for the re-spec. At the same time, try to make better design decisions. It'll keep your customers from face-palming when you implement things like this.




KurnKuku
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:37:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Shpenat
I would like to thank CCP Spitfire and CCP Prism X for mechanics clarification.

I will try to rewrite it here with little explanation why did it happen this way (as i understand it from their posts). The mechanics works this way:
1) each time you use a remap the 1 year counter is started/reseted.
2) when the counter reach zero time it checks the amount of your remaps available
3) if the remaining amount reads 0 it adds +1. if it reads anything else, it does nothing.

This way you can start with any number of remaps, but will never get more than 1 after a year of waiting.

Now the idea was to give each character a possibility to remap after the learning skills were removed. But the programmers were given only very short time to implement it.

the easiest way to do it is to add +1 to the current remap counter. This way no remap mechanics will be broken and the intensive testing of the change will not be needed.

As the result the people who remapped shortly before the change was applied get a new remap, however people who had just few hours left get nothing (few hours bonus). Is it fair? Well .... not really. But it is much better than accidentally breaking something and then have to hunt the bug for several days and deal with more whinig about it.


This would not work, as using the given remap yesterday would reset any counter that is currently running, so would not reach the point of checking until a year away.

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:42:00 - [193]
 


Think we can easily reach page 20 with this.

What was the problem again? Shocked

Captain Mastiff
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:45:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Serpents smile

Think we can easily reach page 20 with this.

What was the problem again? Shocked


Santa gave us a present, though other people got better a present.

Effectively that's it.

KurnKuku
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:49:00 - [195]
 

Edited by: KurnKuku on 16/12/2010 15:52:17

Originally by: Captain Mastiff
Originally by: Serpents smile

Think we can easily reach page 20 with this.

What was the problem again? Shocked


Santa gave us a present, though other people got better a present.

Effectively that's it.


There is a lot of this going about, I was trying to find what it is called in psychology, where everyone having nothing is better than some having more. I am sure I read something years ago about it.

It was the same with the learning skills, the fact that some people who trained it would of preferred everyone else to go through that misery because they had to, rather than not go through it. It was ok though if they were compensated.

Seems inherent human behaviour, more so for some people.

dickbott
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:51:00 - [196]
 

Edited by: ****bott on 16/12/2010 15:51:32
Originally by: Captain Mastiff
Originally by: Serpents smile

Think we can easily reach page 20 with this.

What was the problem again? Shocked


Santa gave us a present, though other people got better a present.

Effectively that's it.


More like everybody got a present, but those who had birthday in 3 days just got their birthday present in advance instead.

Basically its better to have birthday during the summer.

Captain Mastiff
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:53:00 - [197]
 

Edited by: Captain Mastiff on 16/12/2010 15:56:42
Originally by: KurnKuku

There is a lot of this going about, I was trying to find what it is called in psychology, where everyone having nothing is better than some having more. I am sure I read something years ago about it.

It was the same with the learning skills, the fact that some people who trained it would of preferred everyone else to go through that misery because they had to, rather than not go through it. It was ok though if they were compensated.

Seems inherent human behaviour for some people.



It's a reasonable human response though, same when you have two rich people. One was daddys boy who got all the money from inheritance and another worked for it. The one who worked for it insists the other doesn't deserve it because he didn't work for it.

On the other hand this is a game that can be fixed very easily by CCP and real life analogies don't really work. It just shows another level of incompetence.

Christ, have a look at the thread where they claimed to have "accidentally" inserted some auto download security software on the Buy plex page.

Originally by: ****bott
Edited by: ****bott on 16/12/2010 15:51:32
Originally by: Serpents smile

Think we can easily reach page 20 with this.

What was the problem again? Shocked


Santa gave us a present, though other people got better a present.

Effectively that's it.


More like everybody got a present, but those who had birthday in 3 days just got their birthday present in advance instead.

Basically its better to have birthday during the summer.


I would say it's more like you had a birthday in a month (remap). Instead of getting a birthday present you only got a christmas present. People who's birthday were before christmas got a birthday present and a christmas present.

HyperZerg
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:56:00 - [198]
 

I read about some experiments some years ago:

You have 2 person, and 100$. One person splits the potand the other have to aceppt it. If he doesn't none gets the money.

If you say 50/50 it will be accepted
If you say 33/67 its a boared and has good chances to be accepted
If you say 10/90 it won't be accepted

The interesting part was, when they tested it with monkey, they would even accept the 10/90 offer.

So, if I would get a 0,3 free remap and others get 2, I would say, better give them to none then this.
If I would get 1, and the others 2, I would accept it, even if it's a little unfair.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:58:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Perhaps it is important to re-iterate on this:

The reason people who already had an implicit respec (after waiting for a year or more) got TWO is because if they'd only gotten ONE they would actually have gotten ZERO.

Explanation:
They'd already earned ONE through waiting. This is an indisputable fact.
The reason they get TWO is because when they remap, they lose ONE free respec and the timer is UPDATED. If they had been set to ONE free respec that would leave them at ZERO and with a refreshed timestamp. That's ONE respec they can do after having earned one through waiting and getting another one from us.

Those that had not earned anything have their free respec. You can chose to use it whenever you want but when you gain a new one through waiting it's not going to increment that numbers. You cannot hoard free respecs by design.

Again: If you had no respecs you were, effectively, reset a year back giving you a respec.
If you were already a year back resetting you a year back would give you nothing.
Please bear in mind that waiting for two years does not grant you two respecs. They do not accrue!


There is no way that "by design" you figured that someone would be treated fairly and would gain equal advantage realativge to othter playaers by recieving their remap date a few weeks or a few months early while others had them stacked.

Its not a matter of philospopy.. or I give you more credit than that . Youa are correct that if you did want to be consistent those with one remap available should get 0 remaps as "they already had a free remap"

Don't skirt this issue

This is mattter of lazness and not a commitment to excellence else it is a complete disregard to trying to treat players equally.

So Cash
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:58:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: HyperZerg
I read about some experiments some years ago:

You have 2 person, and 100$. One person splits the potand the other have to aceppt it. If he doesn't none gets the money.

If you say 50/50 it will be accepted
If you say 33/67 its a boared and has good chances to be accepted
If you say 10/90 it won't be accepted

The interesting part was, when they tested it with monkey, they would even accept the 10/90 offer.

So, if I would get a 0,3 free remap and others get 2, I would say, better give them to none then this.
If I would get 1, and the others 2, I would accept it, even if it's a little unfair.


It's not a little unfair though, as some people were literally a day away if not hours before the database alteration.

In effect some people have only had their remap boosted by a day, where as people before the update who had one have now been given in effect the ability to hold 2 years worth of remaps.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:05:00 - [201]
 

Playing Dumb about this is even more and insult.

You know very well , if you are a player, how this effects people unevenly and the value of having a stacked remap vs moving the date forward.

You would certainly know that if you had planned a training schedual that moving a remap forward would do no good because you had planned to use those attributes to their advantage until the point you had a choice to use a new one.

Playing "stupid" is a direct insult to players. And an insult is an insult whether or not the point is correct.

Come clean and at least say that the design gives players very different benefits .

KurnKuku
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:06:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: HyperZerg
I read about some experiments some years ago:

You have 2 person, and 100$. One person splits the potand the other have to aceppt it. If he doesn't none gets the money.

If you say 50/50 it will be accepted
If you say 33/67 its a boared and has good chances to be accepted
If you say 10/90 it won't be accepted

The interesting part was, when they tested it with monkey, they would even accept the 10/90 offer.

So, if I would get a 0,3 free remap and others get 2, I would say, better give them to none then this.
If I would get 1, and the others 2, I would accept it, even if it's a little unfair.


Thanks I will go googling this, I am just personally interested in the reasons behind it.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:07:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Captain Mastiff
Edited by: Captain Mastiff on 16/12/2010 15:27:22
Originally by: Riedle

Dude, in short - if this issue causes you this much grief in real life then consider yourself to be a very blessed person.

Get over it. Life isn't fair.

Suck it up or GTFO.


Wat?

I imagine you are a member of the 2 remap side. It's not causing me grief in my real life, just causing a large imbalance in a controlled enviroment AKA a game which can be altered. If this was real life sure people would suck it up and get on with it because that's life and it can't be changed.

This is a game, CCP can quickly alter it. If we look at it another way and you lost an extremely expensive ship from an exploit or bug you would be complaining to CCP straight away and wouldn't go "Life isn't fair".

For those trolling or unable to comprehend the idea of constructive criticism.

The fact is a lot of members have got shafted over a free gift, if you were in that position where you are at a major disadvantage over other people you wouldn't be happy.


Incorrect. I am one of those that just get my remap timer moved up a little bit.
I understand that they did it the way they did and further, as I thought we could accumulate remaps if I didn't use the next one - bit now understand that you don't and never did - I get why they had to do it this way and there really was no way to make it any more fair as all they could do would be to have it in July and then those people would be compalining.

They changed the learning skills and reset the cool down timer on the remaps for people who may have been speced for learning skills that are no longer there.

That's why they did it. It wasn't just to give out free remaps.

suck it up.

Captain Mastiff
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:15:00 - [204]
 

Edited by: Captain Mastiff on 16/12/2010 16:16:44
Originally by: Riedle

They changed the learning skills and reset the cool down timer on the remaps for people who may have been speced for learning skills that are no longer there.

That's why they did it. It wasn't just to give out free remaps.

suck it up.


So the fix to balance is to only give a remap to those who had a timer...

Not give those who already one stacked up and waiting another bonus of being able to remap twice without waiting a year.

The big thing is we have to wait a year for our 2nd remap, they have it whenever. A year is a lot of SP when you wanted to do something like leadership based skills. I would be learning 50% less than if I picked my standard skill path.

HTFU? No, fix the problem.

Karia Sur
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:18:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Riedle
.....


no, the correct way to do it was to write a little bit of code that adds 1 remap to every single character in Eve. That causes no problems to any timers that are active, but gives everyone, fairly, a free remap.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:19:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: KurnKuku
Edited by: KurnKuku on 16/12/2010 15:52:17

Originally by: Captain Mastiff
Originally by: Serpents smile

Think we can easily reach page 20 with this.

What was the problem again? Shocked


Santa gave us a present, though other people got better a present.

Effectively that's it.


The level of anger is not about getting a slightly smaller piece of cake but someone cutting the cake that gave a person who hadn't eaten theres a second piece of cake and me, who ate his long ago a tiny sliver even thouth they had an unlimmited cake to give out.

When asked politely firts the cake cutter pretends to look the other way.

When pointing out that he just gave the other person a big second portion, he pretends that he's acting fairly because we already ate our first slice.

The anger in part is because of the cake cutter acting like a xxxxx (don't know the right word) ... not because you're not getting a piece of cake.

Its right to expect a game company to give out advantages fairly and to

There is a lot of this going about, I was trying to find what it is called in psychology, where everyone having nothing is better than some having more. I am sure I read something years ago about it.

It was the same with the learning skills, the fact that some people who trained it would of preferred everyone else to go through that misery because they had to, rather than not go through it. It was ok though if they were compensated.

Seems inherent human behaviour, more so for some people.


Caldariftw123
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:22:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Captain Mastiff
Edited by: Captain Mastiff on 16/12/2010 15:27:22
Originally by: Riedle

Dude, in short - if this issue causes you this much grief in real life then consider yourself to be a very blessed person.

Get over it. Life isn't fair.

Suck it up or GTFO.


Wat?

I imagine you are a member of the 2 remap side. It's not causing me grief in my real life, just causing a large imbalance in a controlled enviroment AKA a game which can be altered. If this was real life sure people would suck it up and get on with it because that's life and it can't be changed.

This is a game, CCP can quickly alter it. If we look at it another way and you lost an extremely expensive ship from an exploit or bug you would be complaining to CCP straight away and wouldn't go "Life isn't fair".

For those trolling or unable to comprehend the idea of constructive criticism.

The fact is a lot of members have got shafted over a free gift, if you were in that position where you are at a major disadvantage over other people you wouldn't be happy.


As one of those falling on the 1 remap side I can safely say you are whining about not getting "as much of a free thing as the other guy got" and should probably htfu. Some people are at an advantage over me in this respect, they can quickly spec to something unpopular say charisma and gain a SP advantage in that area. I don't care, because it's not the total SP that determine winners and losers in this game.

Bawbawrabblebaw.

Karia Sur
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:26:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Caldariftw123
Bawbawrabblebaw.


your missing the point.

If its a free gift given by a player to other players, then yea, he can pick and choose who he gives what to and who benefits to what extent. But in this instance, the Devs/GMs have given a free gift to everyone in Eve, but a gift which does not have the same value to everyone.

KurnKuku
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:28:00 - [209]
 

Cool found it, falls under 'Behavioral economics', specifically The Ultimatum Game

So Cash
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:30:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: So Cash on 16/12/2010 16:33:38
Originally by: Caldariftw123


As one of those falling on the 1 remap side I can safely say you are whining about not getting "as much of a free thing as the other guy got" and should probably htfu. Some people are at an advantage over me in this respect, they can quickly spec to something unpopular say charisma and gain a SP advantage in that area. I don't care, because it's not the total SP that determine winners and losers in this game.

Bawbawrabblebaw.


Total SP does not definitely define who is a winner or loser in this game after it's an MMO so there are none. Though it significantly helps, training time is what the entire system is based on and time is the only fixed thing related to skill points we can't force time to speed up or slow down. There are variables however which may become fixed (Attributes)

We can't force time to speed up or slow down though we can change attributes yearly but not in this case.

We all pay roughly the same sub price, though we've been treated differently in terms of our "gift". Thus someone is able to complete two completely different types of skills (attribute wise) in one month worth of game sub where as I am only able to get through one skill and a bit. Using purely the gift rewarded to us.

lots of people are effected by this, we can use a completely different scenario in Eve an I imagine if it were a bug or exploit you wouldn't be Hardening the **** up, you'd be filing a petition whining why it wasn't your fault.

HTFU? No Fix it.

In fact lets get CCP to never fix or develop anything ever... then when you complain they can just say HTFU.


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