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Passageway
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:23:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
I think all this rabble rabble was for naught, brotatos

logged in to see that i have two remaps available, when previously i had zero and would receive a new one tomorrow afternoon. So...everyone who spent their remaps should be getting two, not one. Everyone who had one got bumped up to three.


Well that's interesting, because I had one available, now I have two. That seems fair, but are you saying I should have three?

Secondly, sorry if this has been answered, but could I remap now, then remap again in a couple of weeks? Or would the first remap hold for a year until I could use the second?

Veilag
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:27:00 - [272]
 

Originally by: Passageway
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
I think all this rabble rabble was for naught, brotatos

logged in to see that i have two remaps available, when previously i had zero and would receive a new one tomorrow afternoon. So...everyone who spent their remaps should be getting two, not one. Everyone who had one got bumped up to three.


Well that's interesting, because I had one available, now I have two. That seems fair, but are you saying I should have three?

Secondly, sorry if this has been answered, but could I remap now, then remap again in a couple of weeks? Or would the first remap hold for a year until I could use the second?


available remaps can be used whenever you like.

Argerlich Landstreicher
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:34:00 - [273]
 

Edited by: Argerlich Landstreicher on 16/12/2010 20:34:00
What the hell....i only have 1 remap...not 2 nor 3 like other people. Does this mean I've been a bad boy and i don't get my christmas present?

Claire Voyant
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:40:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: Commander Phoenix
Originally by: Commander Phoenix


I also have another character who was created on 2010.01.10

Had used 1 of the 2 available remaps and didn't use the other one. He has now got 2 remaps, not 3 like my other character.


I also have yet another character created on 2009.11.30. Has used (at least) 1 remap and now has 3 available.

I have to admit to a slight confusion. As an older player, I still remember the attribute distribution we used to do as part of character creation. My last three alts were created under the new system, but for some reason I either never noticed or just forgot that I did a remap on all three right after I created them. I just created a new character now and it appeared in space with 20,20,19,20,20 attributes and 2 available remaps. Assuming that is not a change and that previous new charaters started with 8,8,7,8,8 attributes then those last three alts all had just one remap available before the patch, and they all ended up with 3 available remaps after both of the last two downtimes.

The most recent character was created on 2009/12/23, the rest are older. I can't explain what the difference would be between it and the two you mention, but let me throw out two off the wall theories.

1) Age of account: Although my most recent alt is less than a year old, the account is older than a year so maybe your 2010.01.10 character is from an account that is younger than one year.

2) All my accounts were remapped to IM in part to accelerate learning (but also because they are research production alts) so maybe with the removal of learning skills, IM remaps were given an extra remap.

Like I said, off the wall theories but that's all I got besides pure randomness.

Amberlamps
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:55:00 - [275]
 

I think I just bumped into this thread.

Mia Restolo
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:30:00 - [276]
 

Originally by: Claire Voyant
...
The most recent character was created on 2009/12/23, the rest are older. I can't explain what the difference would be between it and the two you mention, but let me throw out two off the wall theories.

1) Age of account: Although my most recent alt is less than a year old, the account is older than a year so maybe your 2010.01.10 character is from an account that is younger than one year.

2) All my accounts were remapped to IM in part to accelerate learning (but also because they are research production alts) so maybe with the removal of learning skills, IM remaps were given an extra remap.

Like I said, off the wall theories but that's all I got besides pure randomness.


I posted a theory earlier that covered this. If a character last remapped more than a year ago and still has their second character creation remap, OR has never remapped at all. They receive a remap for A. - Having a remap timer that is inactive (even if it wasn't visible due to having an available remap, Dev explanation) B. - Having a granted remap point already available.

So I think it's not based on the age of the account, but the age of the last remap combined with granted remap points still being available.

So an old, never remapped character receives two > total 3.
A newer never remapped character gets one > total 3.
A newer character who remapped once more than one year ago gets two > total 3.
And a newer character who remapped once less than a year ago gets one > total 2.

Pingu
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:31:00 - [277]
 

Was said before but worth repeating:

A free remap is not a timer reset.

Free remap for me is +1 remap. Timer reset saves me a few days.

The plex for remaps thread convinces me that this is worth arguing (and petitioning) about as I am losing a lot compared to someone whose remap timer expired on the day before the patch.

Commander Phoenix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:34:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Mia Restolo

So an old, never remapped character receives two > total 3.
A newer never remapped character gets one > total 3.
A newer character who remapped once more than one year ago gets two > total 3.
And a newer character who remapped once less than a year ago gets one > total 2.


Yeah, that sounds about right.

Dawne Xi
Minmatar
3D Salvage and Acquisitions
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:50:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Mia Restolo
So an old, never remapped character receives two > total 3.
A newer never remapped character gets one > total 3.
A newer character who remapped once more than one year ago gets two > total 3.
And a newer character who remapped once less than a year ago gets one > total 2.

You left out, Any character who had no remaps available, and whose timer had not expired, got their timer reset > total 1.

Mia Restolo
Posted - 2010.12.16 22:09:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Dawne Xi
Originally by: Mia Restolo
So an old, never remapped character receives two > total 3.
A newer never remapped character gets one > total 3.
A newer character who remapped once more than one year ago gets two > total 3.
And a newer character who remapped once less than a year ago gets one > total 2.

You left out, Any character who had no remaps available, and whose timer had not expired, got their timer reset > total 1.

And also characters that had one because their timer had ended received one > total 2.

I was expanding on Claire's list trying to explain why some people seem to have gotten two.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.12.16 22:14:00 - [281]
 

And they called the 72sp/h crowd, whiners. This lot take it to a whole new level. Laughing

Claire Voyant
Posted - 2010.12.16 22:56:00 - [282]
 

Edited by: Claire Voyant on 16/12/2010 22:57:37
Originally by: Mia Restolo
So an old, never remapped character receives two > total 3.
A newer never remapped character gets one > total 3.
A newer character who remapped once more than one year ago gets two > total 3.
And a newer character who remapped once less than a year ago gets one > total 2.

Except one of my characters created on 2009/12/23 and remapped that same day now has three remaps available.

As an aside, I've just realized that 8 of my 9 characters got one more remap than they should have. I would be pretty p*ssed if my main only had the timer reset with a few months to go. CCP would be wise to revisit this and maybe give everyone who had their timer reset an extra remap.

Mia Restolo
Posted - 2010.12.16 23:19:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Claire Voyant
...
Except one of my characters created on 2009/12/23 and remapped that same day now has three remaps available.



Interesting... maybe one of the changes between the 15th and 16th patches was extending the cutoff point by a few weeks? Do you know if that character had two or three remaps on the 15th? I know my main had a remap due on the 15th, only had one remap at that point and now has two.

Londo Mallari
Posted - 2010.12.16 23:51:00 - [284]
 


I used wednesdays free remap on this char yesterday resetting my timer to 1 year...
After todays patch, this char now has 2 remaps availlableLaughing

My other 2 chars only got 1 eachConfused

funny part is this char is just and alt, that will struggle to use them over the next yearCool

Go figure...

Zora'e
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.12.17 00:56:00 - [285]
 

I 'think' this character had a remap available last week (I may be wrong, I actually don't remember when my last remap was). But I don't think I got the "gift" remap (however I did remap yesterday anyway as I switched my training goals). My other character had a remap as well, and got the gift remap so now has 2 remaps available. However in the long run it really doesn't matter if I did or did not receive a remap as my skill training time has still been reduced by the removal of the learning skills and a flat rate put in place.

I understand how some would feel not getting a remap would be an issue, but for me.. meh it really doesn't matter that much.

Claire Voyant
Posted - 2010.12.17 01:21:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: Mia Restolo
Originally by: Claire Voyant
...
Except one of my characters created on 2009/12/23 and remapped that same day now has three remaps available.



Interesting... maybe one of the changes between the 15th and 16th patches was extending the cutoff point by a few weeks? Do you know if that character had two or three remaps on the 15th? I know my main had a remap due on the 15th, only had one remap at that point and now has two.

That character along with 6 others had 3 remaps available after both downtimes.

white kight
Helljumpers
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.12.17 15:45:00 - [287]
 

I love how a thread like this would get completely ignored by ccp. I'll always CCP's christmas gift in 2010, a crap ship that looks like crap and a 2 month early remap when others get a free one on top. Cheers ccp.

Dawne Xi
Minmatar
3D Salvage and Acquisitions
Posted - 2010.12.17 17:43:00 - [288]
 

I think I've figured out what CCP Prism was trying to say and didn't convey very well at all.

I'm only going to talk about characters created BEFORE Apocrypha came out in March 2009.

Since Apoc came out in March 2009, any character who started using it that day could have had two remaps by now.

March 2009 to March 2010
March 2010 to now

So to give them a free remap, means they need to be able to remap 3 times since March 2009.

So going back to what CCP Prism X said

Originally by: CCP Prism X
The reason people who already had an implicit respec (after waiting for a year or more) got TWO is because if they'd only gotten ONE they would actually have gotten ZERO.

Explanation:
They'd already earned ONE through waiting. This is an indisputable fact.
The reason they get TWO is because when they remap, they lose ONE free respec and the timer is UPDATED. If they had been set to ONE free respec that would leave them at ZERO and with a refreshed timestamp. That's ONE respec they can do after having earned one through waiting and getting another one from us.


I think he's saying here that anyone who has never remapped waited a year or more and sort of "earned" a respec because they never used it in the first place, so giving them +1 remap now would be like giving them nothing. So they decided to give them +2 remaps, because removal of learning skills, and getting back up to 5 million SP's could have an impact on how you would be training now.

Ok that's great, I understand this.

Except CCP Prism X... You totally left out a group of people who DID wait over a year since Apocrypha had come out to remap, and may have only remapped their very first time within the last few months. Namely anyone who remapped their very first time after March 2010. I would say using your logic, those people also had an implicit respec because that had waited a year or more. THOSE are the people that are getting the short end of this remap gift, because all they got was a timer reset.

So I say anyone who did wait a year or more to remap/respec for the first time, since the release of Apocrypha, should have gotten +2 remaps, like that group of people that you said had never remapped.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.12.17 21:23:00 - [289]
 

Why is having two stacked remaps so much better than having one remap ?

Because it allows for a long range plan where you can spend less that a 1 year period "specced" to an otherwise un-optomal solution.

to cut to the short, the 3 months would be spent specced for drones in the very odd Memory - peception bias .

The vast majority of skills are either intel-memory based, or perception - willpower based... both with more than enough very valuable attributes to train over a year on . (if you've been smart you'll have used the couple remaps and 6 months or so to get your chactater 7 million in skills that will let them be a useful pilot in many areas)

At some poioont though.. you'll want to get your drone skils up to a more elite level. Most though won't want to spend a full year on them. During that time the very odd memory-perception biast is your friend....and even while you'r in Intel mode your memory will be far from maxed and your perception will be almost at its minimum.

When you train drones in the either intel or or perception biased mode you'll be trainingabout 25% slower . If you use a 1.5 million a month rule of thumb that about 350k a month you could have saved training drones for whatever period that you had bent that way.. for me, that would have been getting about 1 million more sp sooner.

That was going to be worth spending 350 million hard grounded (well actually easily traded) isk to buy a remap....

but charcters nixed that remap thing.

Then CCP gives an extra remap to lots of people.. allowing them to spend less than a year specced a certain way.. but they don't give it to me..

So my irritation is doubled.. first for the remap per plex change (only wanted onee bought with game play effort) and then for this taunting me with dangling what I wanted but only giving it to other charractrs... a larg number of who couldn't be bothered to use them .

Amberlamps
Posted - 2010.12.17 21:48:00 - [290]
 

Guess ccp are going to remain very silent and brush this under the carpet?

Claire Voyant
Posted - 2010.12.17 22:26:00 - [291]
 

It's very easy to understand their logic:

-If you've never done a remap, or still have a spare remap, obviously you don't need extra remaps, so you get 3 (or in some cases 2.)

- If you've done a remap, but more than a year ago, you need remaps a little more, so you get 2.

- If you've done a remap in the last year, you are likely to get the most use out of a remap so you only get a timer reset.

Sounds fair to me ;-)

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.12.18 00:07:00 - [292]
 

Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 18/12/2010 00:10:19
Originally by: Amberlamps
Guess ccp are going to remain very silent and brush this under the carpet?


Won't be any decision makers on over the weekend

But, it will never be too late to correct unfair treament.. they can do in next week, next month, or in a year.

There's no such thing as "that was a long time ago"

bring it up each month forever ... if it weren't something that they could fairly easily sort out how to do after a few weeks or a month it would be a different matter... i can see how they might not have time now.

Etheoma
Posted - 2010.12.18 02:24:00 - [293]
 

I didn't get a free remap...

Amberlamps
Posted - 2010.12.18 21:33:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Etheoma
I didn't get a free remap...


Neither did a lot of people they just got a timer reset.

Enraged Stoat
Posted - 2010.12.18 21:58:00 - [295]
 

So if you had a timer running this free remap was also immediately spent on resetting the timer without your consent. Personally I would have preferred to have waited the 3 weeks the timer had left and ended up with a new available regular remap; and the original gifted one left available for use if needed after a drunken night of remapping fail.

That does suck, and is rather unfair. Confirming earlier posts in the thread about "leave timer alone, add one free remap to everyone" would have been a better implementation.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.12.18 22:34:00 - [296]
 

If I got stacked remap (on the timer date a "earned" one was do me )like those who had one got it stacked to two, for 3 months of the year
I could:
switch from a to a maxed intel/memory that I have now with a remap that was coming up in march , in time for me to have maxed shield skills, covert cyno ablity, almost maxed ecm, targetting etc.

Then switch to
memory / perception for 3 months and train drones at somethin like 2700 instead of 2000 ish. Need to get t2 heavy drones, drone int v, fighters five, fighter bombers 4

Then with a stacked remap , I could
switch to max perception / wilpower after 3 or 4 months. Speccing memory/willpower is worthless for a year term

Thats a real example that I was planning if I could get a stacked remap.

They gave a stacked remap to all my alts that don't need it but not my PVP toon that was actively useing, not hoarding the remaps.

That disadvantage will cost me more than 1 milllion sp as the differnce in 2011 between what i could have gotten with what other people got and the far less that they gave probably 150,000 other characters.

Would be given a 1 milllion sp shortfall in a year get you angry?

Its a fair bit of sp ...worth about 200million isk if I planned to sell.(but i don't plan to sell my main)

So, if you don't care much about 1 million sp , think of it as them giving something of 200million isk in value (and I would have haplily paid 350 million isk earned in active game play).

Givng half the characters something of that value and not giving the other that is a major difference.

Not enough to emo-quit the game... but enough to raise a stink about and persistently appeal to logic and fairness over the next few months.

Staggerr
Broski North
Posted - 2010.12.18 22:37:00 - [297]
 

Edited by: Staggerr on 18/12/2010 22:41:52
Originally by: Amberlamps
Guess ccp are going to remain very silent and brush this under the carpet?


Petitioning my non-existing free remap resulted in the following:

If you had a remap available you were supposed to get another one. If you had a timer running it was supposed to have finished it instantly. People receiving more than one remap was a mistake which might, or might not be, fixed.

Last time I saw somebody quote a GM people got mad, so I rewrote it. Yeah finishing a timer (be it 2 months left on it) is considered a 'free remap'. And yes, they (or atleast the GM) admitted to have ****ed up.

We can all safely assume that since they ****ed up, they aren't gonna risk ****ing up again by undoing anything. Hurray for CCP, hurray for carpets.

Amberlamps
Posted - 2010.12.19 05:17:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: Staggerr
Edited by: Staggerr on 18/12/2010 22:41:52
Originally by: Amberlamps
Guess ccp are going to remain very silent and brush this under the carpet?


Petitioning my non-existing free remap resulted in the following:

If you had a remap available you were supposed to get another one. If you had a timer running it was supposed to have finished it instantly. People receiving more than one remap was a mistake which might, or might not be, fixed.

Last time I saw somebody quote a GM people got mad, so I rewrote it. Yeah finishing a timer (be it 2 months left on it) is considered a 'free remap'. And yes, they (or atleast the GM) admitted to have ****ed up.

We can all safely assume that since they ****ed up, they aren't gonna risk ****ing up again by undoing anything. Hurray for CCP, hurray for carpets.


I wonder what will happen if I say I didn't get my free remap I had one but not my second. Wonder if they'll actually bother checking the logs or just give me one anyway Confused

white kight
Helljumpers
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.12.19 06:17:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: Amberlamps
Originally by: Staggerr
Edited by: Staggerr on 18/12/2010 22:41:52
Originally by: Amberlamps
Guess ccp are going to remain very silent and brush this under the carpet?


Petitioning my non-existing free remap resulted in the following:

If you had a remap available you were supposed to get another one. If you had a timer running it was supposed to have finished it instantly. People receiving more than one remap was a mistake which might, or might not be, fixed.

Last time I saw somebody quote a GM people got mad, so I rewrote it. Yeah finishing a timer (be it 2 months left on it) is considered a 'free remap'. And yes, they (or atleast the GM) admitted to have ****ed up.

We can all safely assume that since they ****ed up, they aren't gonna risk ****ing up again by undoing anything. Hurray for CCP, hurray for carpets.


I wonder what will happen if I say I didn't get my free remap I had one but not my second. Wonder if they'll actually bother checking the logs or just give me one anyway Confused


Meh, the logs show nothing anyway. Resetting a timer that may have had 1 day, it may have had a couple of months and calling it a "Free" remap is extremely bad advertisement from CCP. I would like to see if CCP decide to fix this!!! Would always be nice for CCP to actually address the concerns of the eve community, instead of closing their eyes, hands over ears saying "La la la la i can't hear you"

So Cash
Posted - 2010.12.19 20:01:00 - [300]
 

Originally by: white kight
Would always be nice for CCP to actually address the concerns of the eve community, instead of closing their eyes, hands over ears saying "La la la la i can't hear you"


Yeh seems to be the impression I get everytime CCP slip up.


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