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Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.14 19:02:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: FlameGlow

Bot for minerals, build ships, insure ships, explode ships - there, new isk from nothing


Quite true but utterly trivial in terms of what is going on regarding new isk creation from macro/botter ratters. Its also controllable by CCP - and yeah I know they've never been much use at insurance, was the first rollback in the game (June 2003 IIRC) when CCP bolloxed it up and everyone got rich that weekend.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.14 19:14:00 - [182]
 

Having seen this I give up :

Worthy of any "we don't listen" regime

Your choice CCP and seems like you made it.

lego brick
Posted - 2010.12.14 19:16:00 - [183]
 

well the can of worms is open Shockedreminds me of the war in Iraq. The security minister trying to convince the population Iraq is winning the war, U.S tanks can be seen on the other side of the river......... I can draw a parallel here haha

Wiki Leaks
Posted - 2010.12.14 19:37:00 - [184]
 

In between helping their own player accounts out, punishing whistle blowers and trying to protect StevieSG from all the negative press she rightfully earns, you cannot expect a GM to give a flying **** about the RMT that makes CCP so much money.

Wiki Leaks
Posted - 2010.12.14 19:40:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
I am sure the CSM will have substantive questions to ask regarding RMT and botting at the summit this week, and we look forward to informative answers that reflect the intense interest of the players in this topic.



You really are CSM material aren't you?

That's an insult by the way. A bloody low blow as well. No you're not expected to understand.

Marchocias
Posted - 2010.12.14 20:07:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Crazy KSK
well I'm no expert of anything I just know that its possible to make things happen if you just want to and I know what ccp does not want to


I just want to fly, without mechanical aid.

Obviously this is possible. Neutral

Inanna NiKunni
Posted - 2010.12.14 20:24:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Lykouleon
Edited by: Lykouleon on 13/12/2010 18:49:10
This was... disappointing. No substantive content, no graphs...

Really, give us some numbers. Give us a graph of "this is how many people we've banned hammered since 2008" or "Price of PLEX in ISK in relation to price of PLEX in USD visible on RMT sites since Unholy Rage began."

As well, GM Grimmi has completely missed the major complaint of the community at the moment. The problem isn't RMT and the people using it, its botters who then take their ISK and plug it into their alliance and their supercap fleets. I could honestly care less about RMT since I don't take any part in it. But I do enjoy PVP and have seen what the proliferation of supercaps recently has done to the dynamic of 0.0 and lowsec warfare. The ability to drop +25 supercaps onto a field and ****-train anything under the size of a massive counter-blob is terribad. Of course, their are a good percentage of players that've dug into the game and invested a good deal of time and effort into getting their magnificent e-peens of **** and destruction, but with over 400 titans currently operating and the fact that SC losses have turned from universe-shattering events into farts in the breeze means something is not going according to plan

Also, please CCP, don't let GMs do blogs on stuff like this...make it at least something from the Senior GMs or a developer currently working on solutions...we need substance; we aren't the WoW community Razz



Basically THIS !!!
who gives a darn about some ruski or chinese guy making a few bucks - isk botting breaks the game - by allowing some alliances/corps to PVP with unlimited isk - while most of us have to grind for isk like mofos.


Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
Posted - 2010.12.14 20:42:00 - [188]
 

This dev blog is a nice collection of lies.

CCP you used to be good, now you are just a bunch of m-o-r-o-n-s milking money from what is left of what was once a great game.

nooblets Cool

Inanna NiKunni
Posted - 2010.12.14 21:00:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Cato X
Last month I took my Stealth Bomber out to dronelands and anchored a couple of containers with supplies. I lived out there for a few weeks. Within a couple of hours I identified dozens of macro botters and even caught a few ravens with bubbles as they mechanically warped back to the POS. I went back an hour later and podded them--they where still sitting where my bubble was. I petitioned a half a dozen accounts with proof like this and added them to my watch list. To this day these toons are still logged on 23 hours a day grinding away isk for their master. When they log off, they all log off at once, and log back on at once--even though they are spread across many systems.

CCP would have been better off not posting this blog, because it just confirms what we had feared and are now upset aboutout--that this is all BAU and nothing serious being done to address botting.

Your not going to change the fact that black markets will always exist everywhere, so change what you can control--the client and the server software to make it difficult to bot. It's work but its not all that hard:

1. Make slight changes to memory assignments or variables names once a month that break bot applications. This will force Bot programmers costs up and force them to reverse engineer the client once on a month. It will also break the bot enough to turn off bot users.
2. Create a tool that profiles botting behavior/ Look for time online, repetitive commands, high NPC kill systems with low population, ect...
3. Create a tool that takes the suspicious toons from #2 above, and dumps information from the client that reveals if the client has been modified by a bot program--there is your proof.
4. Create a "cosmic disturbance" around asteroid fields, anomolies, and grav sites where, upon landing, the ship is scrammed and webbed until a piece of information is entered that is graphically displayed.--easy meat for anyone looking for a kill.
5. Hold corporations and alliances accountable for their members botting with heavy ISK fines. Fine the Alliance and the Corp 5 times the estimated one month ISK proceeds from the bot.

There is no silver bullet, but by appearances the problem is being completely ignored. Do something--please.




Those are all good ideas - excellent Post

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.14 21:48:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 14/12/2010 22:15:43
Othran, you're right and thanks for eliminating that issue.

So, why not just put a cap on how much isk each character can make from bounties & npc buy orders in a given time?
You can still trade, nick stuff, etc, just can't farm endlessly from the isk faucets.
CCP can hopefully tell us if there's an isk amount/range that no usual player would reasonably reach that should also be low enough to massively cut into the value of having to run several characters to work around the limit.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.12.14 22:16:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Wiki Leaks
In between helping their own player accounts out, punishing whistle blowers and trying to protect StevieSG from all the negative press she rightfully earns, you cannot expect a GM to give a flying **** about the RMT that makes CCP so much money.


Rolling Eyes

Siramar Thi
Posted - 2010.12.14 22:35:00 - [192]
 

Remind me why RMT's r bad if it means more accounts and moneys for ccp?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.12.14 22:37:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Siramar Thi
Remind me why RMT's r bad if it means more accounts and moneys for ccp?


1/10

Lofe sXe
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.12.14 22:41:00 - [194]
 

one of the worst CCP damage control ever

Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
Posted - 2010.12.14 23:02:00 - [195]
 

the poster above me is a noob

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.14 23:48:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Shurikane
Originally by: ArchenTheGreat
If you do this for 23/7 than you are botting. And if not than you need a ****ing life and CCP will do you a favor by banning you anyway.
Okay. Okay. I do a full-day marathon of ratting, so I'm a bot. Yep.
Firstly, even a one or even two day marathon is going to be broken up by your basic biological needs unless you have a laptop and you're exceptionally good at killing rats while wiping your own ass.

Secondly, obviously a full day isn't enough for certainty. This is why you do background checks. You check transaction history. You check chat activity in various channels. If you can rat all day every day only sending money to some other player whilst never talking to anybody in alliance corp or local? You're either a bot, or you're clinically insane. In either event, I'm not sure I want you in my sandbox.

gfldex
Posted - 2010.12.15 00:46:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Lubomir Penev

PLEXes provide way for RMTers to have accounts not tied to RL identity, and PLEXes provide incentives for Joe Schmoe to bot in order to "play for free" (people can't read an electrical bill).

Suppress plexes. Ban BUYERS...


You got a good point there mate. Sadly you don't provide reason for CCP to change their policy. I might be able to help here.

The real problem is the combination of red wallets and selling PLEXes. If you get your nice RMTed ISKed removed by a GM you have placed a bet and lost. That bet is that you have to pay less for your ISK then somebody who went with PLEXes right away. So if you get cought, _and_only_then_ you have to pay that little premium that is on PLEXes to do it legit. There is in fact no reason to avoid RMTers as you can all the time fix your red wallet with a few PLEXes if you get cought. Not much of a problem for somebody who bought his way into the game in the first place.

On top of that the current practice is putting corps at risk. You can't really accept ISK donations if you can't see where the money came from. If you do, you place a bet, even if you have no intention to do so.

SyntaxPD
Posted - 2010.12.15 00:50:00 - [198]
 

Edited by: SyntaxPD on 15/12/2010 00:53:15
1. Ban bots. Every banned bot brings you another 15$ when it's holder will go for new account.
2. What is your GMs salary? How many bots can be clearly indentified by one man in a standard 8 hours work day, let's say it's about 6. One man will bring you roughly 15*6*22 = 1980$ per month. Average salary in Russia is not much higher 500$.
3. Ban bot chains and their isk holding accounts, this will not stop them, but they will go for more bots - more GTC sold, ban isk holder a bit harder but it will have stronger impact.
4. Ban ban ban. Make them subscribe more times and even if they still make isk of botting, they will not have heavy impact on eve economy.
5. How much time needed to train skills for one bot? If bans will follow each other it's a sort of headache for any botter.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.12.15 01:04:00 - [199]
 

The Pink Bunny Test is the last, best hope for banning macros, here is how it works:

1) Allow GMs to turn off mining modules (and only mining modules)
2) Allow GMs to minimize all active windows.
3) Allow GMs to spawn a Pink Bunny over the module buttons.
4) Allow GMs to open a chat box irrespective of client restrictions directly above the modules
5) If the player reactivates their modules then bot, otherwise enjoy the funny conversation which will follow.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.15 07:28:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
The Pink Bunny Test is the last, best hope for banning macros, here is how it works:

1) Allow GMs to turn off mining modules (and only mining modules)
2) Allow GMs to minimize all active windows.
3) Allow GMs to spawn a Pink Bunny over the module buttons.
4) Allow GMs to open a chat box irrespective of client restrictions directly above the modules
5) If the player reactivates their modules then bot, otherwise enjoy the funny conversation which will follow.

no way a programmer could teach his bot to react to this test by telling the GM a random variation on "f*** off" or "no english".

Lux Scindere
Caldari
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2010.12.15 08:00:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: Lux Scindere on 15/12/2010 08:04:31
The blog post seems to be more of a statement of CCP's position on macroing and RMT
in response to a recent thread on ********** revealing just how pervasive and common they both are and an alleged indifference by CCP.

Whilst the forum thread was originally about how RMT dictates politics (read :trolling) and battles in 0.0, it soon become a how-to-guide and advertisement for botting software and RMT sites.

Summarised on EVEnews 24 :
http://www.evenews24.com/2010/12/04/rmt-uncovered-part2-introduction-and-examples/

Forum link: "expose on RMT"
********** : expose on RMT

I won't believe CCP is truly concerned with banishing paying customers until they start talking about numbers and the impact of all this extra activity on EVE's economy and performance. Until they start talking about strategies and game changes.

Every player has seen the low hanging fruit CCP could do something about. Those fleets of similarly named ships missioning or mining 24/7, the 0.0 systems with enormous NPC kill stats and ravens/carriers and hulks that automagically warp to a POS and log out in so many backwater systems. The army of recycled alts that do nothing but transfer ISK. I hope little flags are going up somewhere for GM's for the most apparent offenders. The problem is much more extensive than this but this is a good place to start. I imagine viciously stamping out this activity would stamp out a large portion of RMT'd funds - though not all.
Sadly botting / RMT behavior done well is indistinguishable from normal game-play, fortunately there are many who do not 'do it well' but to exorbitant excess.

EVE is fundamentally a competitive game, but how are you going to compete with someone who rakes in billions, a trader that can update prices instantly 24/7 or a missioner/miner that is willing to undercut any price. Macroers impoverish EULA abiding pilots and exacerbate grind by devaluing your efforts, driving yet more people to bot or RMT.

CCP may even find there's much more to be gained in an EVE with less bots and more humans if they reconsider the problem. The question is do CCP really have the motivation or ingenuity to address the problem?

edit: Laughing k-u-g-u-t-s-u-m-e-n is a censored word?

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2010.12.15 08:33:00 - [202]
 

Edited by: Darth Vapour on 15/12/2010 08:35:29
Originally by: Candente
The dev blog does reveal one thing, though: CCP is admitting that "fixing" the RMT and botting problem is something very hard to do.


No it's not. Fixing the maxcro/bot problem while still making as much money as possible from PLEX sales is what is difficult.

Quote:
edit: Laughing k-u-g-u-t-s-u-m-e-n is a censored word?


Censoring bad publicity is serious business, much more then banning bots. And don't give me that crap about bad links from the-site-who-shall-not-be-mentioned, through google ads a lot of eve-related sites have links to bad places.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2010.12.15 09:47:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Mjana
Originally by: Gneissgrinder
Edited by: Gneissgrinder on 13/12/2010 17:40:08
Edited by: Gneissgrinder on 13/12/2010 17:39:37
hmmmm

is this an informal reply to the following 3 part article on www.evenews24.com ??? hmmmmmm Shocked
Link to an article that links malicious stuff removed. Spitfire


Removing - or should i say censoring? - links to a news article that describes in detail, which tricks a person uses for botting/RMT seems a bit... well... like hiding the truth. And I haven't found any "links to malicious stuff" there either, only a ton of interesting information.

I read the article yesterday, and it definately made me a sad panda, seeing how a single person (apparently from Italy, not China) is able to get not only hundreds of times more ISK than a normal player for himself to enjoy EVE (with a personal Titan, etc..) but, at the same time, also selling ISK for a monthly salary that I can only dream of.



What? You can't hide a rotting dead elephant under a carpet? Someone tells CCP.

mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2010.12.15 09:47:00 - [204]
 

Not really impressed by this blog...

Personally, I see the war on bots as important as the war on lag. First off, I don't agree on the viewpoint that the majority of the effort goes to fight isk buyers (in order to reduce demand). Sure, that's an important aspect, but tons of botting is done for personal gain, and to fund alliance operations. Guess which one aggravates legitimate players the most? Large scale macro farming operations and isk spamming are background noise for every mmo, but when players find start to suspect that the itans killing them are funded by macros, that's when the rage starts.

We don't just need a war on RMT, we need a targeted war on bots. Sure, there will always be some sophisticated bots out there that don't get detected, but every bot has a signature, and not everyone uses the top of the line bot and keeps them updated. There should be a team 100% dedicated to developing and using tools to detect and ban bots. There are many initiatives you can take here, like WoWs warden bot scanner, and a robust system for players to report 'illegal' activity.

Right now the main problem is that it's too easy to bot and not get banned, or at least that is the perception. You can almost totally eliminate bots with proper effort. Look at Pokerstart, they have an in house team dedicated to detecting the patterns and signatures of bots, and they will eventually ban a botter's account. It's widely known that they buy and test the botting programs themselves. If you aren't doing this yet, if you aren't monitoring the top botting forums and testing bots in house to find signatures, then you need to start now.

The top botters will always be 1 step ahead of you, but if you don't stay 1 step behind them at all times the problem will get out of control, especially as the game grows. Stay 1 step behind the botters at all times, and leave a trail of perma-banned accounts in your unholy wake!

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.12.15 10:36:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: SkinSin
Well I read the devblog and the gist of it was:

1) We know about RMT.
2) We continue to do something about it.
3) We are aware of botting.
4) Buy plex.
5) Plex is good.
6) Buy Plex.
It was a particularly unenlightening devblog and didn't add any more information than we already know. To be honest, GM Grimmi might as well have not bothered it was that pointless!


After editing I feel your summation is now accurate representation of the spin control statement issued by the PR department and posted as a 'dev blog' which I awaited with some eagerness, no graphs, no numbers, no content.


Hethor
Interficio Interfeci Interfectum
Posted - 2010.12.15 10:46:00 - [206]
 

While I do detest RMT, I have to also say that I find PLEX to be disgusting.

The "solution" to stopping real money trading activities in EVE was CCP introducing a cash shop.

So instead of people paying real money for isk or characters or items, now people pay real money for plex for isk, or characters, or items.

What's the difference really?

CCP by their own hand introduced a method for people with excess cash to instantly have years worth of skillpoints and billions of isk.

People cry out when a free to play game offers any items that have a gameplay advantage if you pay real money for them. Then just look at EVE! It's a subscription model that also offers the entire market AND characters for real life money!

I would much rather see them set their unholy rage against the botters and such, without introducing PLEX into the game. It would have kept the playing field even for legitimate players.

The introduction of PLEX into EVE was a flawed, awful solution to a problem it legalizes instead of solves.

It is by far the worst move CCP has done, in my mind.

Russian Mistress
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:01:00 - [207]
 

I really like the proposals of Datcorinna Erunde about uncovering the bots and making their life miserable.
Also I would like to add that CCP should read the petitions written when bots are detected.
As an example:
We had a bot in nearby system and petitioned CCP about it several times-no result. The petiton was just closed.

We just bubbled asteroid belts and killed it.

Also some of the bots can reply in local to answer simple questions. Some bots are using pixel recognition algorythm, so thee can detect some phrases also and give a quick reply, or just type anything in local.
Some bots are having random login and logoff time, for example U input hours for botting and choose the required interval for it, also the bot can log off randomly and login to look like a real person near the computer.
Some advanced bots are using bookmarks for belts instead of warping to belts at 0, some also use this bm randomly to insure different logs instead of belt 1-2-3-4-5 etc…
I understand that it is a hard work to uncover them, but it is very much possible, if CCP really makes it a goal.

1. Most of the bots use a safe spot for warping and cloaking (easily can be seen in logs)
2. If the bots are using corp hangar on pos to unload salvage and loot and take ammo for next cycle (could be seen in logs as well) remark.. some bots take a random number of ammo to look like real person, but it is random between some numbers (like 900-1300 missiles for golem).
3. Bots mostly use a raven (if they dont have a pos in a system) or Golem (in system with POS)
4.Bots react faster than a human being (watch for logs) it needs 0.4-0.6 secs to react and activate warp command if they see anyone in local (I doubt that any real man can do this fast after ratting for 5-6 hours in belts, believe me)

I can continue…

The main thing FOR CCP IS:
1. WORKING BETTER WHEN BOTS ARE PETITIONED!!
2. MAKE a SOFTWARE, that can analyze the info due to steps, written by Datcorinna Erunde



Also I would like to add, that DRONE russian regions are one of the most trouble in EVE. I will tell you why…
I huge part om RMT connected with super-capital production.
Due to cheap alloys (I will tell why are they so cheap later), XDeath pets and XDeath themselves have the ability of making them nonstop and sell these for real money (like they did it to WN etc.)
Why the alloys are so cheap in Drone regions?? This is a matter of expoit and unfair gameplay (not xdeath members guilty, but CCP, who gave them such an easy opportunity).

The trick is very easy… smartbombing drone bs and structures in anomalies. How that happens:
What we need:
1. abbadon with 8 EM large smartbombs passive tank
2. carrier(mothership, or rorqual). Rorqual is even better
1 energy transfer + 1 capital remote armor repairer+ 2(3) large smartbombs EM

These 2 ships warp to anomaly (drone horde for example) at 0 and activate all smarts simultaneously.
After 5 minutes the anomaly is complete, noobs collect alloys and salvage wrecks.
Since the wrecks invulnerable to smartbombs, it gives ****loads of loot and easiest isk in Eve.

If the CCP makes the smartbombs kill wrecks again, the RMT will decrease at least 1/3

Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:43:00 - [208]
 

[Quote]We have by no means stamped out the whole of RMT in EVE Online. This is an ongoing struggle and the results depend on what we do - but they are also dictated by the conduct of you, the players.

ISK is sold because people buy it. Players do business with the RMT element and that is why accounts are hacked, asteroid belts are sucked up by bots and it is why we find ourselves in our current situation.



Confirming that it is our fault the game was built in a manner that allows botting, and that RMT is so easy to hide from CCP, and that the $/ISK exchange rate is so high it makes it well worth the risk for players to buy ISK from these RMT folks.

Seriously guys, RMT hurts only CCP, while botting for ISK hurts everyone EXCEPT CCP.



One other question however: Is GM Grimmi a Dev? As in a person who codes the game. Or is he the person who tells us that the logs show nothing? Because they aint developers.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.12.15 12:37:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
The Pink Bunny Test is the last, best hope for banning macros, here is how it works:

1) Allow GMs to turn off mining modules (and only mining modules)
2) Allow GMs to minimize all active windows.
3) Allow GMs to spawn a Pink Bunny over the module buttons.
4) Allow GMs to open a chat box irrespective of client restrictions directly above the modules
5) If the player reactivates their modules then bot, otherwise enjoy the funny conversation which will follow.


Self quoting for seriousness.

gfldex
Posted - 2010.12.15 12:44:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii

One other question however: Is GM Grimmi a Dev? As in a person who codes the game. Or is he the person who tells us that the logs show nothing? Because they aint developers.


How can you question the success of an assignment to the department that requires the least skills to get hired in?


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