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Mjana
Switzerland EVE Corp.
Posted - 2010.12.14 14:56:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Gneissgrinder
Edited by: Gneissgrinder on 13/12/2010 17:40:08
Edited by: Gneissgrinder on 13/12/2010 17:39:37
hmmmm

is this an informal reply to the following 3 part article on www.evenews24.com ??? hmmmmmm Shocked
Link to an article that links malicious stuff removed. Spitfire


Removing - or should i say censoring? - links to a news article that describes in detail, which tricks a person uses for botting/RMT seems a bit... well... like hiding the truth. And I haven't found any "links to malicious stuff" there either, only a ton of interesting information.

I read the article yesterday, and it definately made me a sad panda, seeing how a single person (apparently from Italy, not China) is able to get not only hundreds of times more ISK than a normal player for himself to enjoy EVE (with a personal Titan, etc..) but, at the same time, also selling ISK for a monthly salary that I can only dream of.

I still hope someone will tell me that the facts in the article are wrong and that it's not as THAT easy setting up ratting bots or at least that it's not as THAT easy transferring billions of ISK every month from bot-characters to player characters... Sad

Oni Triad
Posted - 2010.12.14 14:58:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Grady Eltoren
stuff

Yes, you see miners getting captcha in mines and doing interactive stuff to pull more ore out :)

Di Mulle
Posted - 2010.12.14 14:59:00 - [153]
 

To easy a mood out there, let's remember that Incarna will bring us no gameplay except showing your outfits in an empty stations.

Now that is what can't be botted ! Or at least it makes no sense.
Isn't it an ingenious move by CCP ?

Sorry. I just couldn't resist. State of affairs is pretty sad right now, while CCP spends years for making a stuff without even knowing what to do with it. While the game has outgrown itself and is screaming for reshaping.

Soma Khan
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.14 14:59:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Othran
Edited by: Othran on 14/12/2010 08:54:42
Indeed. Heres what 15 minutes effort shows.....

Time to name and shame - these are the 15 most blatant botting systems in the game and if CCP can't deal with it then its time to pack up and find another game :

8OYE-Z : Cache (SOLAR WING)
Y-OMTZ : Delve (IT Alliance)
G2-INZ : Esoteria (Stainless)
HHQ-M1 : Esoteria (Stainless)
ROJ-B0 : Insmother (RED Citizens)
VBPT-T : Insmother (RED Citizens)
Y-770C : Oasa (Legion of xXDEATHXx)
RO-AIQ : Oasa (Shadow of xXDEATHXx)
G-B3PR : Omist (White Angels)
UC-8XF : Outer Passage (Shadow of xXDEATHXx)
F-HQWV : Perrigen Falls (SOLAR FLEET)
W-IIYI : Querious (IT Alliance)
WIW-X8 : The Spire (SOLAR FLEET)
HM-UVD : Stain (AAA/AAA Citizens)
4F89-U : Wicked Creek (The Jagged Alliance)

Oh and as an observation - looks like some alliances got told to stop botting for a while about 24 hours ago. Its very very clear when you look at the dotlan maps - pretty much all ratting activity ceased in certain eastern regions at exactly the same time.
nc alt detected. indeed

Tlar Sanqua
Gallente
Gallente Defence Initiative
Posted - 2010.12.14 15:19:00 - [155]
 

This surely is a joke. This blog reveals nothing, does nothing and is simply a really bad attempt at damage control.

What new methods for dealing with Botting and RMT have been implemented in the last year? You don't have to say the details, an overview and a statment of the number of new methods and routines implemented would be more substantive than this blog.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.14 15:24:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Othran on 14/12/2010 15:24:59
Originally by: Soma Khan
nc alt detected. indeed


Nice try but no. Last alliance I was in was BDEAL, didn't suit me, left 5 months ago. I don't do PVE at all, took me a while to realise that PVE was the entire point of sov 0.0 - and it is Wink

I can pick out systems up North that are just as suspicious - its just that these 15 are ones where there's little to no argument to be had about occupancy levels being the reason. That's the reason for these.

Oh and its worth noting that Dotlan goes back a LOT further than 48 hours......

Jaqel Broadside
Posted - 2010.12.14 15:48:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Cyaxares II

And Akita's proposal of "just give us an official API to write our own bots" would level the playing field for this sort of metagaming (at the moment the risk vs reward equation is pretty unpredictable).

If something can be automated that's usually a great thing and the competition for the most efficient automation can be exciting and extremely challenging. Telling people "no - you are not allowed to do this because I don't want to compete with you in that challenge" just seems stupid - in the end both parties could profit from less boring, manual work and more interesting metagaming.

Do you seriously want to tell me that it's more fun to 0.01 ISK manually than think about the most efficient & robust trading algorithms and have your bots execute these?
That it's more interesting to spend hours mining than writing mining bots that are "intelligent" enough to avoid even advanced detection measures? (or if botting were legalized - can deal with random NPC behavior, incursions, ...)




omg,,, I wish there was a palm over face emote,,,

Well let's take this epic mind fest to it's ultimate conclusion.

You state an "efficiency programming war" of bots as the aim,,, er right.

Eve servers can only work at a certain speed relative to their income, that's an obvious limit and if people are hammering CCP's income do you think they will be able to afford to even pay the electricity bill never mind new hardware ? never mind wages of the people coding ?

But let's ignore the obvious and move on,,, this paradigm you envisage of coders being bothered to out wit the people who actually want to play a game,,,

Who is going to win ?

Those who can get the most hardware together to run the bots and afford to pay their electricity bill,, most likely not even connected to the meter.

Quite frankly this train of thought is not gonna work is it ?


Originally by: Cyaxares II

why enforce dumbing the game down (by having people do all the stupid tasks manually) when you could raise it to a whole new level of intellectual challenges instead?




Lol,, stupid,, define not stupid.

Everything you've just posted destroys the frame work of the game - there would be no people who would want to pay for that scenario and the costs of running such an operation would be not be possible to recoup.

Perhaps you would want to see an Olympic games full of machines instead ? Don't you think you are missing the whole point ?

I once worked at a corporation where I was introducing a new computer system automating recipes etc,, they ran a canning line filled with local people packing the cans etc,,, looking at the operation I turned to the Managing Director and said - you could automate all of this.
He said yes we could, but we have a social responsibility to the local community as the major employer in the area. Something I will always have respect for him saying.

Automation is not an end in itself, at a certain point it is destructive, pointless and a waste of time.

Ever wondered why council workers do pointless repetative tasks or the fact they employ consultants in each council doing the same thing that's being done in every other council by their consultants ? Some jobs are created just to give money back into the community, daft but it MAKES a society.

People make a society, automation does not.

The whole reason processes like mining should NOT be automated is purely because it is so friggin hard from a human perspective to keep doing and that in itself limits everything else that relies on it,, hence the game,, those tha can motivate have their role to play too.

Much like a marathon racer, he has his own limits which are in turn affected by external events, his support team, the weather, the height of the course, the type of course, his clothing, etc, etc,,, my guess is you see someone doing something a motorbike could do far better - that isn't the point.

Soma Khan
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.14 16:05:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Othran
Edited by: Othran on 14/12/2010 15:24:59
I can pick out systems up North that are just as suspicious - its just that these 15 are ones where there's little to no argument to be had about occupancy levels being the reason. That's the reason for these.
'scuse me if that reasoning sounds a little too self-serving to me

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.14 16:12:00 - [159]
 

Edited by: Othran on 14/12/2010 16:14:59
Edited by: Othran on 14/12/2010 16:13:20
Originally by: Soma Khan
Originally by: Othran
Edited by: Othran on 14/12/2010 15:24:59
I can pick out systems up North that are just as suspicious - its just that these 15 are ones where there's little to no argument to be had about occupancy levels being the reason. That's the reason for these.
'scuse me if that reasoning sounds a little too self-serving to me


No problem, I can see how you'd be suspicious.

Take a quick look through Dotlan yourself and pick your own top 15 based on npc kills over the last week. All I did to get those 15 was to only click red systems on dotlan, look at the last week/two weeks of npc kills/jumps and those were the most blatant. Edit 2 - with the exception of the Stain system. Nobody is going to convince me that CCP gives a damn until Stain is cleaned out.

Edit - I could easily have made it a top 20 - or 50, just got bored. You feel the need, you go for it :)

Do feel free to correct them - I'm sure there's plenty of cheating scum in whatever part of sov 0.0 you look at Twisted Evil

P3k1
Posted - 2010.12.14 16:16:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: P3k1 on 14/12/2010 16:30:59
I really don't know how bots work. But if they are injecting packets in the ongoing connection between client and a server why just not encrypt the connection?

Or did I misunderstand a few posts talking about injecting packets, and not needing eve client to run?

Now I'm interested in getting a bot just to see how it work, and propose a solution :)
(Maybe some DEV from CCP should get a bot and see how they work.)

Also I agree that some game mechanic should change.

At the end, I'm sure that CCP will do something about BOTs.
I liked the idea with bounties on their heads :)

EDIT:

Idea for account security :)
Tokens that are being used in e-banking. Implement it and one problem solved. I'll be first to acquire one if you implement this feature.

EDIT2:

Since token generates dynamically changing key, use that key to encrypt ongoing communication between server and a client. And you can use the same key to verify that person is logging into a game and not a bot.
Also it would be harder to steal an acc.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.14 16:30:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: Cyaxares II on 14/12/2010 16:39:37
Originally by: Jaqel Broadside
Perhaps you would want to see an Olympic games full of machines instead ? Don't you think you are missing the whole point ?

(a) of course this already exists (various robotics competitions)
(b) I heard doping was pretty common among athletes - similar game to botting in its present state if you think about it (only that the athletes don't risk an account but their one and only body while playing the game - otoh the possible rewards are much higher, too)

Apart from the social aspects (alliance management, the spy game, more refined forms of fraud/scamming) the cap in player-skill in EVE seems to be pretty low.

Take a logistics pilot (which is said to be one of the more challenging roles in EVE) and compare his work to that of a standard MMO healer. He has to manage his rack of 4 remote repair modules, 2 cap transfers and an afterburner - healers in other MMOs have about 30 different spells to pick from (and while you can maybe do your job ok-ish with using only 5 of them there's plenty of room for improvement and a great healer will be able to decide in a split second which tool out of his full arsenal of spells to use).

No wonder people try to automate the logistics ships (with varying success).

Take Starcraft as another example - you can spend years working on improving your own playstyle (and there are many different aspects to master) and AIs tend to be pretty terrible at the game (there are competitions for Starcraft I AIs but nobody in their right mind would try to "cheat" with an AI while playing against human opponents; the only thing I have read about Starcraft II was some guy using genetic algorithms to improve build orders).

Olympics are interesting to watch because player skill plays a large role in athletics and the skill cap is extremely high.
(Even in the highest of tiers you still have people like Phelps showing up and redefining skill ceilings).

Formula 1 is probably the closest you get to an engineering competition in a popular sport.

But if a competitive game doesn't leave much room for player skill the natural route seems to be to look for skill differentials in the meta-game.

Of course I agree with your assessment rgd the profitability of a game as the one I had envisioned.
MMOs sell that well because it is usually very easy to succeed at them in one form or another and very hard to fail (success more a function of time investment than actual mental or motorical skill). Skill caps are pretty soft - otoh when you turn the game into a competition over algorithms you introduce some relatively hard skill caps and many people wouldn't like that.

The purpose of my previous post was not to say "CCP do this" but to try and explain how things look from a perspective different from yours (and that the reason for not-so-complete refusal of bots does not have to be a desire for RMT but can also be a interest in engineering/logic challenges). I admit I got carried away a bit while writing... Wink

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.14 16:31:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: P3k1
Edited by: P3k1 on 14/12/2010 16:18:36
I really don't know how bots work. But if they are injecting packets in the ongoing connection between client and a server why just not encrypt the connection?
At the end, I'm sure that CCP will do something about BOTs.



Encrypting every connection would cost a lot of cpu cycles at CCPs end. You'd still need to secure the client as well. Not trivial and not free to anyone in terms of cost.

I rather suspect CCP will do nothing. Oh sure they'll ban a few thousand accounts but that's the tip of the iceberg. The Eve economy seems to depend on massive influxes of "new" money which is created by missions/killing npcs.

I think the simplest solution may well be to stop paying bounties for npc kills in 0.0. It makes no sense in any "in-game" way, and if any bounties should be paid then the controlling sov entity should be paying them. Loot drops would have to be tweaked accordingly - and the drone regions would need sorting so it was loot.

Everyone is on about RMT and PLEX and mining macros. Forget that. None of that generates NEW isk.

For every isk that enters the game through a bot running missions/ratting then the rest of the playerbase becomes poorer. I'm sorry that your economy requires bots to generate new ISK CCP, but if you stand back a little you'll see it needs fixing.

To CCP : Of course your own revenue stream is intimately entwined with all of this as YOU made PLEX fully "in-game items". Hoist by your own petard or what?

DaDutchDude
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.12.14 16:36:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: DaDutchDude on 14/12/2010 16:41:22
I like the fact CCP posted this blog, acknowledging they are aware of player concerns, and this is a first good step.

What worries me is how they seem to go about dealing with the problems. Trying to squash demand by statements that amount to as much as "drugs are bad, mmm'kay" is not going to change anything: like it or not, there will always be a demand for RMT. More importantly, RMT is only a small fraction of the problem, and it is more a problem to CCP then it is to players. The real problem to players is people using macros / bots to accumulate wealth and through that power beyond the capabilities of most normal players, skewing the game heavily in their favor and seemingly going unchecked. You can even make a case that CCP might actually indirectly benefit from these practices and therefor turns a blind eye, and even the appearance of that is very damaging to players confidence in CCP.

Now that the issue is out in the open, CCP has acknowledged it and it has been put on the agenda of the CSM summit, I hope the attention CCP pays to this issue will be as impressive as it has been on the issues of lag since this summer and I look forward to updates on this issue.

P3k1
Posted - 2010.12.14 16:41:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: P3k1 on 14/12/2010 16:48:53
Originally by: Othran
Encrypting every connection would cost a lot of cpu cycles at CCPs end. You'd still need to secure the client as well. Not trivial and not free to anyone in terms of cost.

You don't have to encrypt everything, you can probably do checksums to see if there was any packet injection. Neither you or I can tell how much CPU cycle would take to process 60000+ connections/players.
Probable solution:
Place a dedicated machine just to cypher/decipher connections between server and a client.
There is always a solution :)

Either way someone should get one of those bots and see how they work, so you can criple them.

Arrggghhhh matey! YARRRR!!

EDIT:

Found link to tokens that I was talking about.
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_token

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.12.14 16:41:00 - [165]
 

Removing local is a minor speedbump for rmt'ers.

Think what it takes to circumvent it? A cloaked scout in scanning range of each gate, scanning every second. Simple little message or convo sent to the ratting bots that tells the python-injecting-program to scurry off.

Marchocias
Posted - 2010.12.14 16:48:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Marchocias on 14/12/2010 17:47:28
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Except its most vocal proponents are the ones that stand the most gain from it. No matter how the client interacts with local itself, there is no getting around the fact that a client has to be updated for a new person in the solar system.

Bots read directly from the client's memory. Adding such a delay only makes it more difficult for legitimate users to fight back against the RMT menace.


What the hell are you talking about?

If you remove delayed local, the clients no longer need to know about everyone else in the system, so this info can be removed... that is EXACLY getting around your 'fact'. Secondly, as has been pointed out before, if the order of serializd fields is altered regularly, attacks which read from memory will also need to be altered, breaking bots which rely on this. Since new patches come out all the time these days, this isn't a problem.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.14 17:04:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: P3k1
Edited by: P3k1 on 14/12/2010 16:48:53
Originally by: Othran
Encrypting every connection would cost a lot of cpu cycles at CCPs end. You'd still need to secure the client as well. Not trivial and not free to anyone in terms of cost.

You don't have to encrypt everything, you can probably do checksums to see if there was any packet injection. Neither you or I can tell how much CPU cycle would take to process 60000+ connections/players.
Probable solution:
Place a dedicated machine just to cypher/decipher connections between server and a client.
There is always a solution :)

Either way someone should get one of those bots and see how they work, so you can criple them.

Arrggghhhh matey! YARRRR!!

EDIT:

Found link to tokens that I was talking about.
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_token


I'm sure they have examples of bots - hell its not hard is it?

Tokens - that's authentication, not encryption. Exchanging a token would (in theory) secure the client - simply run some of the critical files through a hash function. That has a client-side cost in cpu cycles and loading time. Depending on how the hash function is seeded its not 100% secure - it can be but remember this is just saying "hi, this is a real client" at login time. That doesn't secure the comms.

The whole comms stream would have to be encrypted end to end as otherwise there is no point in encrypting anything.

Its very do-able but it does have a significant cost in both development time, auth server/proxy cpu cycles and client cycles.

Having said all that, it wouldn't stop most of the bots that are endemic to Eve anyway.

Crazy KSK
Posted - 2010.12.14 17:33:00 - [168]
 

no one here seems to take the fact seriously that ccp actually earns money form people using bots and would loose money if they would do something against them
because of that I do not think ccp does or will do anything against botting ever
well maybe if 20% of the eve subscribers would quit over the curse of this month and then the impact on income would be significant enough then there would be maybe a change happening
what I am essentially saying is that ccp is nothing more than a bunch of greedy people not more worth than the botters they support not caring about their players more than they need to to keep getting income
ccp has so far not once proven that that is not the case and until they do not prove that eve is not solely there for money making
now is the chance for ccp to prove that they are not just a bunch of greedy people
remove all possibility to fully automate process in eve to make isk
oh it is sure possible if ccp just would want to ^^

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.14 17:41:00 - [169]
 

Anyone suggested just capping the amount of isk a character can receive in bounties per day/hour/sliding window?

Bots would be forced to rotate through accounts. But doesn't fix drones mineral drops?

Marchocias
Posted - 2010.12.14 17:45:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Crazy KSK
no one here seems to take the fact seriously that ccp actually earns money form people using bots and would loose money if they would do something against them
because of that I do not think ccp does or will do anything against botting ever
well maybe if 20% of the eve subscribers would quit over the curse of this month and then the impact on income would be significant enough then there would be maybe a change happening
what I am essentially saying is that ccp is nothing more than a bunch of greedy people not more worth than the botters they support not caring about their players more than they need to to keep getting income
ccp has so far not once proven that that is not the case and until they do not prove that eve is not solely there for money making
now is the chance for ccp to prove that they are not just a bunch of greedy people
remove all possibility to fully automate process in eve to make isk
oh it is sure possible if ccp just would want to ^^


You sound like you know what you're talking about. Rolling Eyes
Oh it is sure possible eh? Explain how.

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2010.12.14 17:45:00 - [171]
 

Just give all NPC rats a 200 km warp disruptor and let the players solve the botting problem.

FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.12.14 17:46:00 - [172]
 

Quote:
While we have put much of our focus on the RMT related activities we do realize that botting is not exclusive to RMT in EVE and we do investigate reports and take action against players proven guilty of using macros for mining, ratting, mission running, market activities and whatnot.

Only investigating reports? That explains why there are so many bots around working non-stop, while it would be quite easy to flag them for investigation automaticallyLaughing

P3k1
Posted - 2010.12.14 17:47:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Othran
Having said all that, it wouldn't stop most of the bots that are endemic to Eve anyway.


Would changing some of the game mechanic do the trick?

Well I'm off to play da game :)
fly safe

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.14 17:52:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Daneel Trevize
Anyone suggested just capping the amount of isk a character can receive in bounties per day/hour/sliding window?

Bots would be forced to rotate through accounts. But doesn't fix drones mineral drops?


Drone mineral drops are meaningless. Mining bots are meaningless. Loot drops are meaningless.

Why?

They simply recycle the money already in the economy - there is no NEW isk being produced. Get a nice loot drop - you still have to sell it. Mine a million miles of veld - still need to sell it or what it builds.

Missions and ratting are the only activities in the game that create brand new CLEAN isk from nothing.

Null sec ratting is the ISK source (and RMT fountain) that needs dealing with most urgently. Simple reason is that a single system with a single bot can produce upwards of 10bill ISK a month. That's not ore you need to haul, nor loot you need to spam at Jita.

That's GOLD. Just like every other game.

ArchenTheGreat
Caldari
Pulsar Nebulah
Army of Lovers.
Posted - 2010.12.14 18:04:00 - [175]
 

Encrypting connection will not solve bot problems. As far as I understood article at EVE24 bots inject client MEMORY with their own scripts.

You can't really protect from compromising EVE client. You give it to players, and players can freely analyze and decompile it to learn how it works. Theoretically it's possible to create something like CCPs thin client. Bot communicating with servers using EVE protocol but without graphic overhead. You could run hundreds of them on single PC.

So, if you can't protect clients from bots what can you do?

You need to design game in such a way that no computer can play it. PVP works that way already, now it's time for mining and mission running.

Treat it like CAPTCHA on steroids (and more fun).

PS. to ****** who wants to introduce bots to EVE: EVE is a multi PLAYER game. Game for people not machines. If you want to play with bots go play chess against computer, see how much fun you will get from it.

Candente
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.14 18:30:00 - [176]
 

The dev blog does reveal one thing, though: CCP is admitting that "fixing" the RMT and botting problem is something very hard to do. What would work better than complaining how much little information the dev blog revealed is to keep surpporting ideas like delayed/upgradable local in 0.0 at Assembly Hall or something. When demanding perfection of the system, please keep in mind that a popular MMO game will not be free of RMT and botting problems no matter how hard the developer tries.

Anyway, thx for the dev blog for at least acknowledging the issue, CCP. It would be better if CCP will take time and response to player suggestions on combat botting/RMT via the CSM meeting.

cpu939
Gallente
Volatile Nature
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.12.14 18:46:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Manfred Sideous
STUFF

This would be how I would curbstomp RMT and botting. I think these changes would seriously limit both operations and add more diversity to Eve.

♥ Manny



Manny while i do respect you some times i wonder what you are smoking.

1&4 - botters would just go to empire run lvl 3 missions or run dscan adding lag to the server.
2 - this i like and was going to post this in the idea forum but never got round to it.
3 - what to do about amarr station outposts.
5 - yes i can see a game bug or a gm not doing there job right might be due to an off day and a player being baned then free who every post hitting the forums.

before we remove local lets get working on lag i do think bots add a lot to this

its a hard job ccp has and i hope they can get on top of it


FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.12.14 18:49:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Othran

Drone mineral drops are meaningless. Mining bots are meaningless. Loot drops are meaningless.

Why?

They simply recycle the money already in the economy - there is no NEW isk being produced. Get a nice loot drop - you still have to sell it. Mine a million miles of veld - still need to sell it or what it builds.

Missions and ratting are the only activities in the game that create brand new CLEAN isk from nothing.


Bot for minerals, build ships, insure ships, explode ships - there, new isk from nothing

Crazy KSK
Posted - 2010.12.14 18:53:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: Crazy KSK
no one here seems to take the fact seriously that ccp actually earns money form people using bots and would loose money if they would do something against them
because of that I do not think ccp does or will do anything against botting ever
well maybe if 20% of the eve subscribers would quit over the curse of this month and then the impact on income would be significant enough then there would be maybe a change happening
what I am essentially saying is that ccp is nothing more than a bunch of greedy people not more worth than the botters they support not caring about their players more than they need to to keep getting income
ccp has so far not once proven that that is not the case and until they do not prove that eve is not solely there for money making
now is the chance for ccp to prove that they are not just a bunch of greedy people
remove all possibility to fully automate process in eve to make isk
oh it is sure possible if ccp just would want to ^^


You sound like you know what you're talking about. Rolling Eyes
Oh it is sure possible eh? Explain how.


well I'm no expert of anything I just know that its possible to make things happen if you just want to and I know what ccp does not want to

oldmanst4r
Minmatar
oldmanst4r's Corporation
Posted - 2010.12.14 18:58:00 - [180]
 

I take issue with just about every solution postulated in this thread so far. Why, because people are simpletons who underestimate the sophistication of bots. It is trivial to modify bots so that their behavior simulates that of a normal player and avoids even showing up on the radar for detection.

This has been proved even in games that have sophisticated and super annoying anti-bot detection schemes (such as Runefail). Any Captchas, Punkbuster like programs, or anything else you put in to stop bots can be worked around easily by the bot creators, while making things much harder on the normal players. This then provides the illusion of mitigating the botting problem, without actually doing anything about it.

The issue is that ISK making in EVE is inherently bottable. The tasks are generally repetitive, simple, and monotonous in nature, requiring little human input apart from a few clicks every now and then. This type of "isk grinding" will always be bottable and is why I can write a mining macro with only a few minutes of work. The only solution to the botting problem is to fundamentally change the way ISK is obtained in EVE, by making ISK generating activities require minimal amounts problem solving and critical thinking that are far beyond the capacity of any mere macro.

Otherwise, you will never beat the botting problem, you will only get engaged in an unwinnable arms race where you are implementing dozens of annoying anti-botting "features" in a futile attempt to reduce the amount of macroers.


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