open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New Dev Blog: Raging On
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (11)

Author Topic

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:19:00 - [31]
 

You really forgot one thing here CCP - in all this "Buy PLEX instead of RMT" blog-kind-of-thing You forgot that RMT is, like whole EVE, working on supply and demand - if PLEX costs more than RMT money there will still be tons of people that will buy it - the main concern is not "getting people to start buying plexes instead of RMT", its making harder for sellers to acquire tons of money via botting, and in effect rising price of RMT money, and risk of running RMT operation. Work toward fighting botting and other aplications that interacts with EVE client (like PI clickers, Autopilot warp to 0km things and such).

On a side note - how can You expect from players to obey EULA, when You intentionally ignore biggest EULA breaks - just so you get little more moonies.

Originally by: Mynxee
Agree with IPOD.
It appears that all your efforts are conducted from the outside looking in. Might help to play your own game, CCP; infiltrate the major alliances and gather evidence firsthand about the RMT'ing of supercaps. If players can do it (and they have), so can you. And then you can act accordingly instead of doing nothing because "hearsay", "the logs show nothing", and "but we can't do anything about stuff that happens on third party sites".

THAT is the kind of proactive behavior I want to hear that you're engaging in to stomp RMT into the ground.



I'm really glad I see response like that from CSM member - go team CSM

PS. no graph in blog?? What the hell?

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:22:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 13/12/2010 17:13:35
Man up and provide some proof or STFU.


How about the 12 billion ISK a week per system, an amount impossible to meet without botting, that you were charging a few months back, for starters?
I didn't think you had any.

I do think that the most vocal opponents of delayed local are botters and RMTers.

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:25:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 13/12/2010 17:13:35
Man up and provide some proof or STFU.


How about the 12 billion ISK a week per system, an amount impossible to meet without botting, that you were charging a few months back, for starters?
I didn't think you had any.

I do think that the most vocal opponents of delayed local are botters and RMTers.


Except its most vocal proponents are the ones that stand the most gain from it. No matter how the client interacts with local itself, there is no getting around the fact that a client has to be updated for a new person in the solar system.

Bots read directly from the client's memory. Adding such a delay only makes it more difficult for legitimate users to fight back against the RMT menace.

KOPOHA MAPCA
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:26:00 - [34]
 

No solution of problem, no statistics. Only words. Absolutely useless devblog. You shurely read this articles, CCP - Link to an article that links malicious stuff removed. Spitfire - you know how large is problem. I don't need your words "we will win someday", I need fair play now! Please help us all to play fair, CCP!

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:29:00 - [35]
 

Glad to see things going on and hope to see a similar blog like the first Unholy Rage. Keep up the good work.

/c

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:32:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 13/12/2010 17:13:35
Man up and provide some proof or STFU.


How about the 12 billion ISK a week per system, an amount impossible to meet without botting, that you were charging a few months back, for starters?
I didn't think you had any.

I do think that the most vocal opponents of delayed local are botters and RMTers.


Except its most vocal proponents are the ones that stand the most gain from it. No matter how the client interacts with local itself, there is no getting around the fact that a client has to be updated for a new person in the solar system.

Bots read directly from the client's memory. Adding such a delay only makes it more difficult for legitimate users to fight back against the RMT menace.
This would obviously have to be fixed, as was MonkeySphere's wallhack.

Nice try though.

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:35:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/12/2010 17:35:54
Originally by: Razin
This would obviously have to be fixed, as was MonkeySphere's wallhack.

Nice try though.

If by fix you mean "re-design half of the client/server architecture in order to implement it" then yes, you're right.

I'm not against a proper fix, but I know what kind of development effort it requires. There are much higher priority fixes than making an unexploitable local delay, with much smaller development costs and much better returns therein.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:39:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/12/2010 17:35:54
Originally by: Razin
This would obviously have to be fixed, as was MonkeySphere's wallhack.

Nice try though.

If by fix you mean "re-design half of the client/server architecture in order to implement it" then yes, you're right.

I'm not against a proper fix, but I know what kind of development effort it requires. There are much higher priority fixes than making an unexploitable local delay, with much smaller development costs and much better returns therein.
That's just your opinion. And as we know, everyone's got one. As for it's usefulness, this thread has shown your track record to be less than stellar.

Gneissgrinder
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:39:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Gneissgrinder on 13/12/2010 17:40:08
Edited by: Gneissgrinder on 13/12/2010 17:39:37
hmmmm

is this an informal reply to the following 3 part article on www.evenews24.com ??? hmmmmmm Shocked
Link to an article that links malicious stuff removed. Spitfire

Ren Nekk
Dead Eye Dogs
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:40:00 - [40]
 

Pretty lame post tbh. Seems like it was written in 15 minutes. More importantly, it contains just about zero substantial content.

"Way to go guys! Keep reporting those ISK spammers! The fight continues! Spread the word about PLEX! Don't let botting be YOUR fault! Hurrah!"

EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:40:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Firartix
So while i'm perfectly okay with banning anything like bots, RMT, or automated stuff, why ban macroers ? I don't really get it...

Doesn't macro = bot? The only difference I see is that bot implies that the tool is advanced.

Grez
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:42:00 - [42]
 

Why do GM's think that botters only bot for RMT? I'd imagine a lot of botters are simply those who don't want to busy ISK via PLEX or other means, but earn it for free by not being at their computer.

Constantly acting as if all botters are part of the RMT scene will get you nowhere.

4Chan TubeChild
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:47:00 - [43]
 

This is such a stupid ass blog. I can't even believe I still play this game.

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:51:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 13/12/2010 17:13:35
Man up and provide some proof or STFU.


How about the 12 billion ISK a week per system, an amount impossible to meet without botting, that you were charging a few months back, for starters?
I didn't think you had any.

I do think that the most vocal opponents of delayed local are botters and RMTers.


Actually, I dont like idea of delayed local. And i'm not botting neither. It is simply something that is unique to W-space, and doing something like that in K-space is breaking the uniqueness of W-space.

Missm Uppet
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:55:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: KOPOHA MAPCA
No solution of problem, no statistics. Only words. Absolutely useless devblog. You shurely read this articles, CCP - Link to an article that links malicious stuff removed. Spitfire - you know how large is problem. I don't need your words "we will win someday", I need fair play now! Please help us all to play fair, CCP!


Agreed with this and other posts here that are similar. Very dissappointing devblog with hollow evidence of any substantial effort. Things have gotten out of hand again. When you tell us that you ban over 100 macro accounts a week and expect us to
be happy with that data, it's almost insulting. With a blanket number like this we are forced to conclude that 99% of those are trial account spammers that you have continued to allow into the game because of your trial account policy. Banning them is of course needed as long as you keep your trial account policy as is, but they have little to do with the real macro problem.

The perception from must of us here is that we're back to where we were a year and a half ago or worse. Indicating that little has been done related to updating your methods of enforcing fairplay.

Macroing and RMT should take a very high priority - player perception of fairness is essential to the success of any MMO, but especially one that is player-driven more than any other.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:57:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Max Kolonko


Actually, I dont like idea of delayed local. And i'm not botting neither. It is simply something that is unique to W-space, and doing something like that in K-space is breaking the uniqueness of W-space.
I think w-space uniqueness is assured by wormhole only access and sleepers.

Instant local provides magically effortless intel, limits play strategies, and allows complete safety to bots.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:00:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Cyaxares II on 13/12/2010 18:00:52

had to laugh in a slightly hysterical fashion when I thought about what effect this "devblog" will have on the various GD threads.

CCP, you could have just taken the easy route and invented some impressive number "<x>-thousand bots got banned during the last 12 months, <y> big RMT organizations were dissolved" and most people would have been happy.

Instead you decide to go the hard way and pour some additional oil into the fire - #1 forum troll, CCP.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:08:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Max Kolonko


Actually, I dont like idea of delayed local. And i'm not botting neither. It is simply something that is unique to W-space, and doing something like that in K-space is breaking the uniqueness of W-space.
I think w-space uniqueness is assured by wormhole only access and sleepers.

Instant local provides magically effortless intel, limits play strategies, and allows complete safety to bots.


Yes, w-space is awesome for corporations that "automate" matters (actively and in the background), sharing software and forums and all these things. But let's be honest, w-space has definite attraction, but it is macro heaven for resources. Maybe if the population density were higher, but it is not designed to support that, and yeah well, it is heading the same way as Faction Warfare.



Aivars Terek
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:09:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Max Kolonko
...if PLEX costs more than RMT money there will still be tons of people that will buy it - the main concern is not "getting people to start buying plexes instead of RMT", its making harder for sellers to acquire tons of money via botting, and in effect rising price of RMT money, and risk of running RMT operation...



true if GMT prices dropped, then the RMT would do so also drop prices or leave game...

somehow i think it'd just mess up the market pricing to drop GMT, though i think it's a good idea

El Mauru
Amarr
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:22:00 - [50]
 

I imagine things like the incursions have got the potential to interrupt botting to a certain degree.
BTW. There was a very informative video interview conducted about RMT btw and it mentioned Eve-Online. I can't link it because links to RMT sites are mentioned, should be up on youtube though - it was conducted by shattered crystal with a known reseller of farmed/botted isk.

Most of the discussion was about WoW, but EVE got mentioned.

Bottomline was:

- EVE has a stable currency as opposed to WoW (only approx. 30% inflation as opposed to Wow, where value of currency fluctuates massively), potentially making it more attractive for farmers.

- 80% of all RMT is still Wow, EVE is an absolute niche-market.

- Botted ISK makes a comparably low faction of "ISK INFLUX" for botters. Most comes from stolen accounts.

- Hackers aquire account details by hacking fan-sites/forums (i.e.: use different passwords for EVE and forums).

- Macro botting on a larger scale (i.e. for isk-resellers) is only marginally worth it in Eve because they have to undercut PLEX-prices, deal with the fact that CCP actually penalizes players (as opposed to other MMORPGs) if caught and the fact that bots still loose ships to stuff + the required logistics train, driving prices up.

- Banning the actual botters deals only marginal damage while banning holding alts would be a real game-breaker to ISK-resellers (i.e.: the guys handling transactions between the farmers and the end-customer).

- The last Ban-wave nearly killed the RMT market for Eve, pushing prices for ISK almost to Plex price.

- Stolen characters are frequently used as spam alts for RMT sites after having been cleaned out.

- Most RMTers rely on announcements/temper in the community on when to go low-profile as to protect their holding characters.


It seems as if the best course of action and the highest chance of success for CCP would be to strike when the whole botting discussion has calmed down again- and to investigate where the transactions between the individual botters and the holding alts take place (for example, freighter jumps from known macro-systems - loosing a JF alt must hurt) or the contract system.


Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:24:00 - [51]
 

A morale blog? I thought they died with ASCN.

I am disappoint.

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:30:00 - [52]
 

As others have said, the CSM will be discussing this issue with CCP at the summit in a couple of days.

Also please note that not all botting is RMT and not all RMT is botting. There is a connection in some cases, but just banning people for RMT doesn't stop other people botting for isk to fund other things in game.

Coming up with ways to reliably detect botting behaviour in addition to the work against all forms of RMT is the only sensible course of action. Also CCP should look at lowering PLEX prices instead of attempting to find new ways to get players to spend them (which would put pressure on supply and drive up prices further, leaving more profit margin for RMT).

Myz Toyou
the Organ Grinder and Company
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:31:00 - [53]
 

This blog is weaksauce CCP Neutral

Latrodanes
Independent Combat Support Services
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:34:00 - [54]
 

This article was not a Devblog. It was a puff piece. Where's the beef? Heck, I was absolutely stunned by the Eve News 24 reporting and based on this article, it appears CCP apparently remains clueless. Crying or Very sad

Maybe the CSM can get them to understand RMT trading on such a vast scale undermines confidence in the entire game economy. <fingers crossed>

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:36:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Max Kolonko


Actually, I dont like idea of delayed local. And i'm not botting neither. It is simply something that is unique to W-space, and doing something like that in K-space is breaking the uniqueness of W-space.
I think w-space uniqueness is assured by wormhole only access and sleepers.

Instant local provides magically effortless intel, limits play strategies, and allows complete safety to bots.



You are right in that, but still, my opinion stands, that delayed local is part off W-space "all alone in a void" theme.

And i have to agree with IPod

Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Max Kolonko


Actually, I dont like idea of delayed local. And i'm not botting neither. It is simply something that is unique to W-space, and doing something like that in K-space is breaking the uniqueness of W-space.
I think w-space uniqueness is assured by wormhole only access and sleepers.

Instant local provides magically effortless intel, limits play strategies, and allows complete safety to bots.


Yes, w-space is awesome for corporations that "automate" matters (actively and in the background), sharing software and forums and all these things. But let's be honest, w-space has definite attraction, but it is macro heaven for resources. Maybe if the population density were higher, but it is not designed to support that, and yeah well, it is heading the same way as Faction Warfare.



W-space provide great opportunities for botters - especially regarding PI. But still i like the concept of W-space, im living in W-space, and would like for CCP to fight problem rather than looking for work-arounds like delaying local in 0.0, the botters will just move to auto courier missions and mission running in empire or low sec.

Netacq
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:40:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: CCP Fallout
In his new dev blog, GM Grimmi discusses the ongoing efforts of Unholy Rage and the continued work towards removing macroers from the game and how we continue to work against real money transfers (RMT).


I'm missing the DevBlog - I found a "management presentation" which says nothing...


Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Have you considered implementing something like Punkbuster to stop python injections used by more and more bots?

...
Do something here!

mkmin
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:46:00 - [57]
 

When I read an informational article, I always try to get a picture of what I read in my head. I make a list of key points. This blog had only one major key point and it was only implied. The message: "When you bot for RMT, do it to buy PLEX." In the long discussion between players and CCP about bots, that is the message CCP has always put out there. This is a message as game breaking as massive lag.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:48:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Lykouleon on 13/12/2010 18:49:10
This was... disappointing. No substantive content, no graphs...

Really, give us some numbers. Give us a graph of "this is how many people we've banned hammered since 2008" or "Price of PLEX in ISK in relation to price of PLEX in USD visible on RMT sites since Unholy Rage began."

As well, GM Grimmi has completely missed the major complaint of the community at the moment. The problem isn't RMT and the people using it, its botters who then take their ISK and plug it into their alliance and their supercap fleets. I could honestly care less about RMT since I don't take any part in it. But I do enjoy PVP and have seen what the proliferation of supercaps recently has done to the dynamic of 0.0 and lowsec warfare. The ability to drop +25 supercaps onto a field and ****-train anything under the size of a massive counter-blob is terribad. Of course, their are a good percentage of players that've dug into the game and invested a good deal of time and effort into getting their magnificent e-peens of **** and destruction, but with over 400 titans currently operating and the fact that SC losses have turned from universe-shattering events into farts in the breeze means something is not going according to plan

Also, please CCP, don't let GMs do blogs on stuff like this...make it at least something from the Senior GMs or a developer currently working on solutions...we need substance; we aren't the WoW community Razz

Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr
Indicium Technologies
Hephaestus Forge Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:48:00 - [59]
 

Erh? that was a Dev Blog?

Firesh
Etoilles Mortant Ltd.
Solyaris Chtonium
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:54:00 - [60]
 

Unholy Rage, my goodness -
this sounds more like "Unholy Whimper"...


Pages: first : previous : 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (11)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only