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Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.25 16:17:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena

The absolute biggest issue for CCP is not what to do once a bot is found, but finding them and proving that it is indeed a bot.


And the second largest issue is that players refuse to accept any form of human response challenge system. They loathe bots, but at the same time want to cling to their 'right' to AFK mine and look like a bot. Something will have to give.

Master Flakattack
Posted - 2010.12.25 17:39:00 - [272]
 

If CCP doesn't get going soon, Unholy Rage is going to take on a whole new meaning amongst the players of EVE.

You know, many of the new people who come to this game come under the impression macroing is allowed. That's how bad the problem is.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2010.12.25 18:37:00 - [273]
 

What I find most telling is that we're 10 days and 10 pages of comments in and CCP has remained absolutely silent. Not a single response from anyone at CCP in regards to what the community is saying about botting.

First, let me also reiterate what many already have - this wasn't a dev blog. In fact, the message I got out of it was 'buy plex' - it was more of an advertisement to encourage players to buy plex than it was an informative piece telling your customers what you're actually doing to resolve the crisis that has enveloped all of New Eden.

I've been playing Eve since 2004 and have been involved with numerous alliances in high-sec, low-sec and nullsec through the ages. Over the past couple of years the bots have proliferated to the point where they are now in nearly every single system in New Eden - high sec mining and missions bots, low and nullsec ratting bots and a generous sprinkling of everything in between such as PI.

My issue in general with CCP is the fact that *every single pilot* in the game can point out at least one 'suspicious' bot. Play any system for a week and you know which toons are bots FFS. What is even funnier is that these guys are even being blatantly obvious - a horde of Amarr haulers in Heim always coming and going to and from the same handful of systems - all NPC toons, all sharing a simular naming scheme. That is the frustration we have as players - we see the bots *everywhere* we go and look, with few exceptions. I've taken the liberty of following some of these Amarr haulers as they traverse low-sec and putting a rather quick end to their botting day. I don't know how ****ed these guys are when they return to their computers to find out their sitting in station in a pod, but given I shoot the same toons over and over again week after week - apparently it's profitable enough to buy another ship and move on. Heh... not being a total idiot I've also been building and selling Amarr haulers close to the point of origin for these bot toons - so I get them coming and going.

It's painfully obvious why CCP doesn't care. Each bot represents cash in hand. Each bot represents another paying account. To ban all the bots, at this juncture, would mean CCP would have to take a substantial financial hit... and they know it. So, if you're waiting around for CCP to solve this problem... well, just don't hold your breath - you'll turn blue and pass out waiting.

The solution, then, is obvious. For low-sec and nullsec bots the solution is painfully simple. If systems are polluted with rat bots then that would seem like an easy way to populate your killboard. Bots are pretty advanced, but as others have pointed out - throw up a bubble or two in nullsec and kick back and enjoy the fireworks - in low-sec simply follow the wrecks. Seriously, if players want to end the bot problem in low and nullsec it's as easy as sending a fleet of human players into the systems full of bots and doing what we do best. To hell with the alliances - if players are really that concerned with it - ban together and go kill the bots and anyone who tries to defend them.

The solution for high-sec is, unfortunately, much more elusive. Given you cannot wardec NPC corps, those of us who really care enough are left with guerrilla tactics such as suicide ganking. Great for hulks and macks - worth the BS loss, but not so much for anything else. I'd personally like to see some kind of 'bot report' tool (like reporting ISK spammers) with the caveat that those who get flagged X number of times (at GM discretion, ofc, to limit social engineering) be turned red to the rest of us, acquire a bounty and do not receive any CONCORD protection. Bots will go away very quickly. Don't ban them tho... that's no fun... let us force them to ragequit instead. w00t!

So, I say the players of Eve ban together for a 'Botageddon' - use Dotlan (thank you Dotlan! You F*ing ROCK!) to find the systems in need of cleansing.

The solution in high-sec is not so simple.

Arrgon Juishan
Posted - 2010.12.25 23:31:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: Cyaxares II
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 14/12/2010 08:38:09

If I were Dr. EyjoG the only way I would agree to a serious removal of bots is if I would get a "place covert NPC order" button in my EVE client in return.



Hmm. I actually thought this already existed. I had noted that there are several sellers of items that when you buy, the quantity for sale doesn't actually go down. I had expected this of NPC stuff, but I have also noted it when the toon isn't part of an NPC Corp, has employment history of multiple corps and has standings. While this is certainly within CCP's ability to randomly create, and I assume they are npcs, it has been something that I have found disconcerting. I mean a PC's stock should deplete and an NPC seller should be recognizable as such.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.26 09:47:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Consortium Agent
What I find most telling is that we're 10 days and 10 pages of comments in and CCP has remained absolutely silent. Not a single response from anyone at CCP in regards to what the community is saying about botting.


I said it before, and will say it again. What CCP wishes to say ("We're not gonna act against botting because doing so cuts into our own wallet."), they can't say; and what they should say ("We're working on it!"), isnt true. Hence, we hear nothing.

Lobster Man
Pigs On Teh Wing
Posted - 2010.12.26 13:18:00 - [276]
 

Edited by: Lobster Man on 26/12/2010 13:18:19
Originally by: Consortium Agent

I've been playing Eve since 2004 and have been involved with numerous alliances in high-sec, low-sec and nullsec through the ages. Over the past couple of years the bots have proliferated to the point where they are now in nearly every single system in New Eden - high sec mining and missions bots, low and nullsec ratting bots and a generous sprinkling of everything in between such as PI.

My issue in general with CCP is the fact that *every single pilot* in the game can point out at least one 'suspicious' bot. Play any system for a week and you know which toons are bots FFS. What is even funnier is that these guys are even being blatantly obvious - a horde of Amarr haulers in Heim always coming and going to and from the same handful of systems - all NPC toons, all sharing a simular naming scheme. That is the frustration we have as players - we see the bots *everywhere* we go and look, with few exceptions. I've taken the liberty of following some of these Amarr haulers as they traverse low-sec and putting a rather quick end to their botting day. I don't know how ****ed these guys are when they return to their computers to find out their sitting in station in a pod, but given I shoot the same toons over and over again week after week - apparently it's profitable enough to buy another ship and move on. Heh... not being a total idiot I've also been building and selling Amarr haulers close to the point of origin for these bot toons - so I get them coming and going.

It's painfully obvious why CCP doesn't care. Each bot represents cash in hand. Each bot represents another paying account. To ban all the bots, at this juncture, would mean CCP would have to take a substantial financial hit... and they know it. So, if you're waiting around for CCP to solve this problem... well, just don't hold your breath - you'll turn blue and pass out waiting.

The solution, then, is obvious. For low-sec and nullsec bots the solution is painfully simple. If systems are polluted with rat bots then that would seem like an easy way to populate your killboard. Bots are pretty advanced, but as others have pointed out - throw up a bubble or two in nullsec and kick back and enjoy the fireworks - in low-sec simply follow the wrecks. Seriously, if players want to end the bot problem in low and nullsec it's as easy as sending a fleet of human players into the systems full of bots and doing what we do best. To hell with the alliances - if players are really that concerned with it - ban together and go kill the bots and anyone who tries to defend them.

The solution for high-sec is, unfortunately, much more elusive. Given you cannot wardec NPC corps, those of us who really care enough are left with guerrilla tactics such as suicide ganking. Great for hulks and macks - worth the BS loss, but not so much for anything else. I'd personally like to see some kind of 'bot report' tool (like reporting ISK spammers) with the caveat that those who get flagged X number of times (at GM discretion, ofc, to limit social engineering) be turned red to the rest of us, acquire a bounty and do not receive any CONCORD protection. Bots will go away very quickly. Don't ban them tho... that's no fun... let us force them to ragequit instead. w00t!

So, I say the players of Eve ban together for a 'Botageddon' - use Dotlan (thank you Dotlan! You F*ing ROCK!) to find the systems in need of cleansing.


Right on, just reiterating the truth in this post

I also think that an eve-wide anti-macro-farmer week might be fun too Twisted Evil

Willenson
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.26 19:46:00 - [277]
 

Point 1 and 4 are excellent ideas and it should not take too much code refactoring for CCP to implement it to great effect if they really wanted to go after botting and RMT.
Originally by: Cato X
Last month I took my Stealth Bomber out to dronelands and anchored a couple of containers with supplies. I lived out there for a few weeks. Within a couple of hours I identified dozens of macro botters and even caught a few ravens with bubbles as they mechanically warped back to the POS. I went back an hour later and podded them--they where still sitting where my bubble was. I petitioned a half a dozen accounts with proof like this and added them to my watch list. To this day these toons are still logged on 23 hours a day grinding away isk for their master. When they log off, they all log off at once, and log back on at once--even though they are spread across many systems.

CCP would have been better off not posting this blog, because it just confirms what we had feared and are now upset aboutout--that this is all BAU and nothing serious being done to address botting.

Your not going to change the fact that black markets will always exist everywhere, so change what you can control--the client and the server software to make it difficult to bot. It's work but its not all that hard:

1. Make slight changes to memory assignments or variables names once a month that break bot applications. This will force Bot programmers costs up and force them to reverse engineer the client once on a month. It will also break the bot enough to turn off bot users.
2. Create a tool that profiles botting behavior/ Look for time online, repetitive commands, high NPC kill systems with low population, ect...
3. Create a tool that takes the suspicious toons from #2 above, and dumps information from the client that reveals if the client has been modified by a bot program--there is your proof.
4. Create a "cosmic disturbance" around asteroid fields, anomolies, and grav sites where, upon landing, the ship is scrammed and webbed until a piece of information is entered that is graphically displayed.--easy meat for anyone looking for a kill.
5. Hold corporations and alliances accountable for their members botting with heavy ISK fines. Fine the Alliance and the Corp 5 times the estimated one month ISK proceeds from the bot.

There is no silver bullet, but by appearances the problem is being completely ignored. Do something--please.


Convoy Hunter
Amarr
Smash 'N Grab
Posted - 2010.12.28 15:59:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Lobster Man
Edited by: Lobster Man on 26/12/2010 13:18:19
Originally by: Consortium Agent

So, I say the players of Eve ban together for a 'Botageddon' - use Dotlan (thank you Dotlan! You F*ing ROCK!) to find the systems in need of cleansing.


Right on, just reiterating the truth in this post

I also think that an eve-wide anti-macro-farmer week might be fun too Twisted Evil


I'm kinda new to Eve - have a couple toons been playing for about a year now. I agree with what was said here in many ways. I play hard to get a moderate amount of ISK and a whole lot of enjoyment out of Eve but everywhere I look I see toons like the other guy said - tons of Amarr hauler toons in Heimatar. I've been reading about bots, and the problem, and have been spending a bunch of my time in game lately studying the local system and have come to the conclusion that about 60% of the toons that reside in and around where I am are bots! Although, in my area, the owner of multiple bots has gotten greedy enough to put them in a corp - which I have taken the liberty of wardec'ing and will pwn the cr@p out of within the next 24 hours.

I also have a suggestion for CCP, if they're even bothering to read these comments...

Limit the available agents for those who reside in NPC corps to level 1's. It may not stop all the problems, but it will sure as h*ll make transport bots go away. Just my 2 cents on that.

Anyway, if anyone else is interested I've got a PvP corp with the intention on making life perfectly miserable for... about 60% of the residents in my area :P Feel free to join up - the more ppl that ban together against these greedy people, the better off we'll all be! You play hard, I play hard - these guys set up computers with bots and print ISK. I agree with the agent fella there - let's start solving the problem ourselves! ;)

Jokerface666
Amarr
Posted - 2010.12.29 20:53:00 - [279]
 

I would really like a bottageddon season in eve,

like if you convo someone and that person doesn't accepts within 30 secs = kill rights, then BOOM them outta space!
this will also get some carabears into pvp every year, and make the life of botters verry hard for one month or so.

and we all get some pewpew :-)

Br,
Joker o7

Bakkachan
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.30 14:37:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Jokerface666
I would really like a bottageddon season in eve,

like if you convo someone and that person doesn't accepts within 30 secs = kill rights, then BOOM them outta space!
this will also get some carabears into pvp every year, and make the life of botters verry hard for one month or so.

and we all get some pewpew :-)

Br,
Joker o7


No legit player will even be able to pee without docking. I GOTS TA PEE!

Cigano
Posted - 2010.12.30 15:23:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: Bakkachan
Originally by: Jokerface666
I would really like a bottageddon season in eve,

like if you convo someone and that person doesn't accepts within 30 secs = kill rights, then BOOM them outta space!
this will also get some carabears into pvp every year, and make the life of botters verry hard for one month or so.

and we all get some pewpew :-)

Br,
Joker o7


No legit player will even be able to pee without docking. I GOTS TA PEE!



pee to a jar Razz

PC l0adletter
Posted - 2010.12.31 00:40:00 - [282]
 

If you think that players can put a dent in bots running in 3200 nullsec systems that can run 24/7 and auto-safe up whenever a neutral enters the system, you might be stupid enough to work at CCP.

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2010.12.31 11:39:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: SkinSin
Well I read the devblog and the gist of it was:

1) We know about RMT.
2) We continue to do something about it.
3) Buy plex.

It was a particularly unenlightening devblog and didn't add any more information than we already know. To be honest, GM Grimmi might as well have not bothered it was that pointless!



Nailed it.


Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.01.01 00:44:00 - [284]
 

Edited by: Consortium Agent on 01/01/2011 01:51:31
Originally by: PC l0adletter
If you think that players can put a dent in bots running in 3200 nullsec systems that can run 24/7 and auto-safe up whenever a neutral enters the system, you might be stupid enough to work at CCP.


Evelan does not beget 3200 nullsec systems with bot problems, so you fail.

Auto-safe has it's weaknesses, might I direct you to look at page 1 or 2 of the responses for an example of how to beat auto-safe. More to the point - if they auto-safe when a neutral enters the system, then they aren't able to rat. So, either way, problem solved. So, again you fail.

Your need to try to make others feel stupid about their opinions is nothing more than troll behavior. So, you epic fail.

And yes, I *do* think players can put a dent in the bot problem. I'm doing it every day. What are you doing besides nay saying something you haven't even tried to do yet? Nothing. You epic fail.

Now go be a good troll on another thread.

I popped 5 hulk bots just tonight on one of my toons. That's an ~850M hit to the bot runner. *That* is doing something about the problem.

I've popped about 20 amarr hauler bots (which hail from Kronsur if anyone at CCP gives a rats a**) in the past 48 hours. *That* is doing something about the problem.

So STFU, man up and start solving your own problems you f***ing pansies. If I'm doing it given the current restrictions of Eve, what's your excuse?

Tetragammatron Prime
Posted - 2011.01.01 03:53:00 - [285]
 

Excuse is we pay to play this game to have fun...fun isn't spending hours trying to catch a macroer.

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2011.01.03 14:31:00 - [286]
 


(How come I cannot access page 1 of this thread anymore?)

If you've ever spent time browsing the web for these macro/bot programs, you'll find that most of the comments and support forums are chock full of what appear to be normal players. It leads me to the conclusion that a lot of the bot/macro users are people who use them as money-making alts. In none of those forums is there discussion of banning or legality...it's purely "where do I get the software" and "how do I do X?"

Now whether the primary pilots using these alt-bots are PvPers (who often complain about the need to make isk to support their PvP) or Highsec carebears who see accumulation of isk as the "I win" for the game is a separate question...I suspect a mix of both.

Regardless, I believe the market share of botting RMTers is diminishing with alt-bots increasing, due to the apparent lack of enforcement.

KB

La Rioja
Posted - 2011.01.04 13:12:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: KaarBaak

(How come I cannot access page 1 of this thread anymore?)



Click "first"

PC l0adletter
Posted - 2011.01.05 07:29:00 - [288]
 

Edited by: PC l0adletter on 05/01/2011 07:29:01
Originally by: Consortium Agent
I popped 5 hulk bots just tonight on one of my toons. That's an ~850M hit to the bot runner. *That* is doing something about the problem.



The botter replaced them all in 5 hours while you (and he/she) slept.

Originally by: Consortium Agent

I've popped about 20 amarr hauler bots



Amazing! How will a botter ever manage to replace 20 bestowers?

Originally by: Consortium Agent

(which hail from Kronsur if anyone at CCP gives a rats a**)



They don't -- that's the point.

Transfer point
Posted - 2011.01.06 00:35:00 - [289]
 


Originally by: Cato X


1. Make slight changes to memory assignments or variables names once a month that break bot applications. This will force Bot programmers costs up and force them to reverse engineer the client once on a month. It will also break the bot enough to turn off bot users.
2. Create a tool that profiles botting behavior/ Look for time online, repetitive commands, high NPC kill systems with low population, ect...
3. Create a tool that takes the suspicious toons from #2 above, and dumps information from the client that reveals if the client has been modified by a bot program--there is your proof.




Let's assume that the botting is as bad as everyone claims. Let's also assume CCP steps up and provides the kind of code changes you're asking for and systematically drives botting to the point where the botters quit. Two things will happen;

1/ they will take a financial hit for it which affects them,
2/ the availability of minerals will fall through the floor and the price will go through the proverbial ceiling which affects the players as ship and equipment prices double or triple.

I wonder how long it will take before everybody is up in arms that insurance isn't enough and something must be done about those damn industrialist who are screwing over the PvPers by charging so much.

I enjoy most aspects of the game including mining, it's really not a bad thing to do when you're too drunk to PvP, tho there are quite a few times I forget to switch from 1 to the other, but I build most of my own stuff so the loss is minimal. Laughing

Pheusia
Gallente
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.01.06 13:29:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: Transfer point

Originally by: Cato X


1. Make slight changes to memory assignments or variables names once a month that break bot applications. This will force Bot programmers costs up and force them to reverse engineer the client once on a month. It will also break the bot enough to turn off bot users.
2. Create a tool that profiles botting behavior/ Look for time online, repetitive commands, high NPC kill systems with low population, ect...
3. Create a tool that takes the suspicious toons from #2 above, and dumps information from the client that reveals if the client has been modified by a bot program--there is your proof.




Let's assume that the botting is as bad as everyone claims. Let's also assume CCP steps up and provides the kind of code changes you're asking for and systematically drives botting to the point where the botters quit. Two things will happen;

1/ they will take a financial hit for it which affects them,
2/ the availability of minerals will fall through the floor and the price will go through the proverbial ceiling which affects the players as ship and equipment prices double or triple.

I wonder how long it will take before everybody is up in arms that insurance isn't enough and something must be done about those damn industrialist who are screwing over the PvPers by charging so much.

I enjoy most aspects of the game including mining, it's really not a bad thing to do when you're too drunk to PvP, tho there are quite a few times I forget to switch from 1 to the other, but I build most of my own stuff so the loss is minimal. Laughing


If mineral prices were to rise to that extent, then I'd start mining again. Thus the supply would increase etc etc. Overall the effects would be nothing but good.

Mookie Johnson
Posted - 2011.01.06 16:43:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
What CCP wishes to say ("We're not gonna act against botting because doing so cuts into our own wallet.")

Yes, because people who use bots certainly don't use plex to pay for their accounts, thereby playing for free or even making a profit off of the game itself through RMT...

Rolling Eyes

mkmin
Posted - 2011.01.06 18:21:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Mookie Johnson
Originally by: Ranka Mei
What CCP wishes to say ("We're not gonna act against botting because doing so cuts into our own wallet.")

Yes, because people who use bots certainly don't use plex to pay for their accounts, thereby playing for free or even making a profit off of the game itself through RMT...

Rolling Eyes


D- for reading comprehension.

Pay attention close, junior, because I'm about to tell you the crux of the issue that players have and you haven't quite grasped. PLEX = $ in CCP's pocket. CCP likes it. What players do not like is the botters who finance the 0.0 supercarrier fleets, and otherwise give an unfair gameplay advantage. The fact that CCP appears to support botting as long as it's not for RMT is frustrating to people who want the game to be played fairly.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.06 19:58:00 - [293]
 

Edited by: Steve Thomas on 06/01/2011 20:10:29
option 1 Comepletly redo the "Seeding" of roid belts on a semi randomised date every 1-6 days. Given what is known about the EvE server I ran a simulation of reseeiding it on a PC

it took 107m21.032s on a laptop

(to be fair I assumed that a total of 10,000 solar systems each got 100 roids belts consisting of 999 unique roids each with a randomly generated volume of ore(between 1 and 10,000 jumpcans worth of ore) in a volume of space 1000X1000X1000 AU asueming that each "Cell" on a grid was 200km

you dont even need to do this on the eve server, just have a machine set to one side to do this every cycle

option 2 Move all roid belts to the mission and exploration system. for missions just add a psudo belt of roids to missions that in the database termplate for that mission hold all posible roids will only spawn the correct roids for that solar system. Key roid spawning to "Misson completion.

Option 3 Create more varants of existing missions including variants on the tanking and damage abilitys of the npcs, as it stands right now you can literaly build tank and weapon setups to match the npcs in a mission

Mookie Johnson
Posted - 2011.01.07 06:02:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Mookie Johnson
Originally by: Ranka Mei
What CCP wishes to say ("We're not gonna act against botting because doing so cuts into our own wallet.")

Yes, because people who use bots certainly don't use plex to pay for their accounts, thereby playing for free or even making a profit off of the game itself through RMT...

Rolling Eyes


D- for reading comprehension.

Pay attention close, junior, because I'm about to tell you the crux of the issue that players have and you haven't quite grasped. PLEX = $ in CCP's pocket. CCP likes it. What players do not like is the botters who finance the 0.0 supercarrier fleets, and otherwise give an unfair gameplay advantage. The fact that CCP appears to support botting as long as it's not for RMT is frustrating to people who want the game to be played fairly.

I'll type real slow for you "gramps":

Player uses bot.
Bot plays nearly nonstop, creating ISK for player.
Player uses portion of ISK created to purchase PLEX.
Purchased PLEX is applied to account.
Player enjoys 30 days free game time.

Please explain how that equals "$" in CCP's pocket, beyond the initial subscription? Hell, if you started botting with a trial account you could never pay for a second of game time.

You think that these "0.0 supercarrier fleets" are being funded but the person/people behind it wouldn't take 2% of the cost of a Nyx and put it towards a PLEX?

mkmin
Posted - 2011.01.07 07:13:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Mookie Johnson
Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Mookie Johnson
Originally by: Ranka Mei
What CCP wishes to say ("We're not gonna act against botting because doing so cuts into our own wallet.")

Yes, because people who use bots certainly don't use plex to pay for their accounts, thereby playing for free or even making a profit off of the game itself through RMT...

Rolling Eyes


D- for reading comprehension.

Pay attention close, junior, because I'm about to tell you the crux of the issue that players have and you haven't quite grasped. PLEX = $ in CCP's pocket. CCP likes it. What players do not like is the botters who finance the 0.0 supercarrier fleets, and otherwise give an unfair gameplay advantage. The fact that CCP appears to support botting as long as it's not for RMT is frustrating to people who want the game to be played fairly.

I'll type real slow for you "gramps":

Player uses bot.
Bot plays nearly nonstop, creating ISK for player.
Player uses portion of ISK created to purchase PLEX.
Purchased PLEX is applied to account.
Player enjoys 30 days free game time.

Please explain how that equals "$" in CCP's pocket, beyond the initial subscription? Hell, if you started botting with a trial account you could never pay for a second of game time.

You think that these "0.0 supercarrier fleets" are being funded but the person/people behind it wouldn't take 2% of the cost of a Nyx and put it towards a PLEX?


F for understanding basic game mechanics. D- for understanding basic economics. Every single PLEX in the game was originally $. They aren't NPC seeds. Players give CCP $, CCP gives the player a plex. That player may choose to trade it with another player for isk. As demand for PLEX goes up, prices rise attracting people to buy a plex and sell it for isk than otherwise would. No matter what, more accounts = more $ for CCP. Even bot accounts. Someone's paying $ for it somewhere. Read a book occasionally.

Iraherag
Posted - 2011.01.09 11:09:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: Mookie Johnson
Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Mookie Johnson
Originally by: Ranka Mei
What CCP wishes to say ("We're not gonna act against botting because doing so cuts into our own wallet.")

Yes, because people who use bots certainly don't use plex to pay for their accounts, thereby playing for free or even making a profit off of the game itself through RMT...

Rolling Eyes


D- for reading comprehension.

Pay attention close, junior, because I'm about to tell you the crux of the issue that players have and you haven't quite grasped. PLEX = $ in CCP's pocket. CCP likes it. What players do not like is the botters who finance the 0.0 supercarrier fleets, and otherwise give an unfair gameplay advantage. The fact that CCP appears to support botting as long as it's not for RMT is frustrating to people who want the game to be played fairly.

I'll type real slow for you "gramps":

Player uses bot.
Bot plays nearly nonstop, creating ISK for player.
Player uses portion of ISK created to purchase PLEX.
Purchased PLEX is applied to account.
Player enjoys 30 days free game time.

Please explain how that equals "$" in CCP's pocket, beyond the initial subscription? Hell, if you started botting with a trial account you could never pay for a second of game time.

You think that these "0.0 supercarrier fleets" are being funded but the person/people behind it wouldn't take 2% of the cost of a Nyx and put it towards a PLEX?


Where do you think the PLEX on the market comes from?

You're not exactly the sharpest chopstick in the drawer, eh?

Morstrane
Posted - 2011.01.11 07:59:00 - [297]
 

So... is it the case that people who pay real money for plex are abetting the botters (probably inadvertently), by keeping the plex supply available for botters to then buy plex with isk and keep playing for free? I suck at economics, but what might be the effect of a plex boycott?

Anyway, I was really posting to say that I used to not really care about botting until I heard other players talking about it in vent. As in, what are good bots to get started with, how to use them, etc. Have to admit it bugs me to realize how common bots are now, and to know that what I thought were normal players are apparently running bot alts as if it is just the way things are now.

Bronzino
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.12 16:24:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: Morstrane
So... is it the case that people who pay real money for plex are abetting the botters (probably inadvertently), by keeping the plex supply available for botters to then buy plex with isk and keep playing for free? I suck at economics, but what might be the effect of a plex boycott?

Anyway, I was really posting to say that I used to not really care about botting until I heard other players talking about it in vent. As in, what are good bots to get started with, how to use them, etc. Have to admit it bugs me to realize how common bots are now, and to know that what I thought were normal players are apparently running bot alts as if it is just the way things are now.


The effect of a PLEX boycott is that people who are playing legitimately but can't always afford the subscription cost (or just don't want to pay), like myself, would have to quit EVE.

As much as I hate to say it, a human challenge/response system is probably best. Other MMOs allow the players to report suspected botters, and a GM will just send them a question or two. Since the game should be capable of distinguishing GM chat from player chat (I've never interacted with a GM in EVE but if there is no distinction right now it should be easy to implement), a player would know right away that they should reply. And it doesn't need to be a "you are scrammed and webbed till you answer this math question" type deal, because that will impact people who are in the middle of ratting. But if a player gets the message, finishes ratting the belt he's in, and then warps on to another belt and begins ratting again, it's a bit of an indication.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.01.12 19:02:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: Bronzino
Originally by: Morstrane
So... is it the case that people who pay real money for plex are abetting the botters (probably inadvertently), by keeping the plex supply available for botters to then buy plex with isk and keep playing for free? I suck at economics, but what might be the effect of a plex boycott?

Anyway, I was really posting to say that I used to not really care about botting until I heard other players talking about it in vent. As in, what are good bots to get started with, how to use them, etc. Have to admit it bugs me to realize how common bots are now, and to know that what I thought were normal players are apparently running bot alts as if it is just the way things are now.


The effect of a PLEX boycott is that people who are playing legitimately but can't always afford the subscription cost (or just don't want to pay), like myself, would have to quit EVE.

As much as I hate to say it, a human challenge/response system is probably best. Other MMOs allow the players to report suspected botters, and a GM will just send them a question or two. Since the game should be capable of distinguishing GM chat from player chat (I've never interacted with a GM in EVE but if there is no distinction right now it should be easy to implement), a player would know right away that they should reply. And it doesn't need to be a "you are scrammed and webbed till you answer this math question" type deal, because that will impact people who are in the middle of ratting. But if a player gets the message, finishes ratting the belt he's in, and then warps on to another belt and begins ratting again, it's a bit of an indication.


When a GM convo's you it forces open the chat window. DOwnside of using GM convos as a test are issues on the GM's side. I'd just make a bot that replies to GM convos in a language not many people speak and then pretend not to understand the babblefish responses. Not to mention the manhours taken away from other petitions.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.01.14 19:16:00 - [300]
 

Originally by: mkmin


When a GM convo's you it forces open the chat window. DOwnside of using GM convos as a test are issues on the GM's side. I'd just make a bot that replies to GM convos in a language not many people speak and then pretend not to understand the babblefish responses. Not to mention the manhours taken away from other petitions.


CCP can work around even that. First, use the "appearance is truth" test for bots; deceptive or evasive responses are assumed to be bots. Also if the language of the reply is different from the localization of the client, assume deception and assume its a bot. CCP can even write all this into the EULA: when a GM calls, you got to respond in an intelligible way, or risk you account being banned. Don't like that clause in the EULA? Find another game.

Also, CCP has GM's fluent in different languages. I have no idea how many are covered.

So a full solution may be:

Have players and a automated system identify potential bots.

Have GM challenge those to see who needs a ban.

Do code and content changes to make bots harder and less desirable.

Do something to increase deterrence, like publishing the number of bans every so often. Something like "This quarter xxx accounts were banned for macro use, xxx of those were discovered via player reports". Give potential botters a little fear: CCP and legitimate players are coming for you.


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