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blankseplocked Cynos, Hotdrops, and Blobbears Oh My.
 
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CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.13 08:02:00 - [31]
 

Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.


AstarothPrime
Posted - 2010.12.13 08:08:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Cut the range of cynos so you can't teleport half way across the galaxy. Cyno problem fixed. This is not WoW, we don't need teleport.


1) Cut the range of possible jump on combat caps. Its kinda stupid that ou can jump thru 20 systems... make it 2 tops.
2) Increase jump range on JF (we all use carriers to jump stuff from null because - they are 1/3 cost of JF)

3) Make this mod to fit on carirers / supercarriers to remedy cap transportation issues:

Logistic jump module. When fit to a ship gives more power to jumpdrive.

50% processor usage
900% jump range
-90% scan resolution
-95% capacitor
-10 active drones in space

That module would still allow dreads to bash POS while it would take 2 minutes to lock on a ratting BS. Plus you wouldnt hurt it much due to low drone count.

It could be offlined OFC - leaving target with empty capacitor and half tank mods offline (due to processor usage) - therefore very vulnerable towards hostile attack. You would certainly warp it to safe sport first, online your defences, then take it to pew pew Wink

I.

dankness420
Posted - 2010.12.13 08:12:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Cut the range of cynos so you can't teleport half way across the galaxy. Cyno problem fixed. This is not WoW, we don't need teleport.


another person who has no idea how capital ships work

the jump distance is related to the ship itself, not the cyno

some ships have a longer distance then others. it is also effected by the skill jump drive calibration.

what you should have said is cut the jump distance of the capital ships, but really do you know how big of a pain it would be? and there are also systems which are 15 jumps apart yet are <5ly in distance. it wont change much except make it more of a pain to live out in 0.0 :P

really the issue is just that you guys are tired of getting hotdropped and want a way around it :P

Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.12.13 08:22:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: ILikeMarkets
Add a build up time for the ship creating the cyno field that is VERY obvious to others around it (big bright light or whatever)? During that time (say 15-20 seconds), if it gets shot the cyno field creation is completely disrupted.

If they are nowhere near a fight, then no problemo. If they are in a fight and get it off, it is the other side's fault for letting it happen.


This

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2010.12.13 08:41:00 - [35]
 

Small Covert Cynosural Field Generator I
Can be fit on Covert Ops and Stealth Bombers
- Can be locked on to by BlackOps Bridge
- Cannot be jumped to by BlackOps
- Activation time: 30 seconds

Large Covert Cynosural Field Generator I
Can be fit by force Recons and Black Ops
- Can be locked on to by BlackOps bridge
- Can be jumped to by BlackOps
- Activation time: 60 seconds

Small Cynosural Field Generator I
Can be fit by Destroyer-class ships and above. Cannot be fit on capitals.
- Consumption Quantity: 100 Liquid Ozone
- Activation time: 100 seconds
- First 15 seconds: Not visible in system, not jumpable.
- Max mass before destabilization: 3.000.000.000 kg (2 carriers or dreads)

Medium Cynosural Field Generator I
Can be fit by BattleCruiser-class ships and above. Cannot be fit on capitals.
- Consumption Quantity: 250 Liquid Ozone
- Activation time: 250 seconds
- First 30 seconds: Not visible in system, not jumpable.
- Max mass before destabilization: 6.000.000.000 kg (5 carriers or dreads)

Large Cynosural Field Generator I
Can be fit by Battleship-class ships. Cannot be fit on capitals.
- Consumption Quantity: 500 Liquid Ozone
- Activation time: 600 seconds

Alternatively:

Create T2 hulls specifically for Cynoing, so like force Recons, and make all other ships unable to fit them.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.13 08:53:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: dankness420

really the issue is just that you guys are tired of getting hotdropped and want a way around it :P

Its not supposed to be easy to live out in 0.0. And yeah.

Jan'z Kolna
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.13 08:57:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Being able to jam a cyno is an obvious counter.



seems like clear-cut role for another type of interdictor- this one preventing not warping , but jumping





Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.13 09:06:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Kalle Demos on 13/12/2010 09:09:07
Originally by: Tidanis
Edited by: Tidanis on 13/12/2010 07:56:56
My solution to caps/super cap blobs:

A BC sized hull with the t2 BC hulls (Drake, harbinger, myrmidon, hurricane) that is a capital sized stealth bomber-average cost ~400mil+. Give it citadel torpedo launchers, a command ship style tank ability, and some kind of Bomb launcher to ruin just supercaps/caps only, maybe a shootable dictor bubble that also works like a void bomb, maybe causes a disconnect from their fighters and forces a recall+deployment? Also allow them to cyno with a blackops and you now have a mobile supercap killer.

Edit: and would also work great for WH pos shoots.


Sounds good except it would kill dreads completely, what if you had the T2 BC rather than be a SB be an advance EW ship.

T2 Harbinger - Bonus to Radar jamming
T2 Drake - Bonus to Gravimetric jamming
T2 Hurricane - Bonus to Magnetometric jamming
T2 Myrmidon - Bonus to Ladar jamming

These will also affect supercaps of the SAME RACE ONLY (meaning the T2 Harbinger will only be able to jam Aeons & Avatars), to sub caps they will be nothing more than a ****ty overpriced racial falcon but to supercaps they will be <insert a bad word>, they will also make the Sansha supercarrier worth getting since their will in effect be the only one immune ;)

These shouldnt affect sieged caps (dreads in siege or carriers in triage) and for the sake of things CHANGE SIEGE TO 5 MINS!!, this way dreads will be useful again and supercaps wont be as simple as warp, drop drones target, lol!

It is really stupid how titans are fielded to counter subcaps wtf :/

1 more thing, they can work with black ops too XD and like heavy interdictors have a really nice tank 

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2010.12.13 11:52:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
4) it takes only 3-5 seconds for people to magically appear once the cyno is lit.


This is probably the biggy.

Originally by: So Sensational
Edited by: So Sensational on 13/12/2010 04:41:44
Originally by: PHoneix NOir
Maybe try like 3 different cyno's, one for massive fleets, one for medium fleets, and one for small fleets. The larger the fleet the larger cyno you need and the less accurate it is, meaning you are more likely to end up somewhat far from the battle. While the smallest cyno module will allow a cap to land quite close to it.

+1 Fantastic mechanic.
If by far from the battle you mean still on grid. Even so that would still make hot-dropping a danger because of snipers, but it seems like a fair balance to me.


Definately interesting. "squad", "wing" and "fleet" sizes, perhaps?
Would limitation be on mass or number of ships? (Latter could encourage "small" SC blobs)

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.13 13:02:00 - [40]
 

I dont see how different cyno sizes help, a not very special gank squad just includes a few SCs.

Either jump drive warmup timer or cyno warmup timer would be best solution against hotdrops. Also jump range should be severely decreased, not just against hotdrops but against blobbing and to make the universe effectively bigger. And before the complaining SC owner starts, yes i got caps myself. Both a dread and a carrier, and their travel speed is completely ridiculous.
For all subcaps it is simply bigger = slower travel. But then come the caps (and super caps), this is actually also the reason i initially trained for dread, we have an OP 20 jumps out to kill a tower. Compared to other alliances ours were pretty close, we never had them more than one region out. But still then, making best speed for 20 jumps it is reasonable to expect 30 minutes for BS. And usually in a fleet that is still too optimistic. Then i come with my carrier/dread, press right mouse button, jump, and do in a larger ship than the BS the same in 5 seconds.

So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.13 13:07:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
I dont see how different cyno sizes help, a not very special gank squad just includes a few SCs.

Either jump drive warmup timer or cyno warmup timer would be best solution against hotdrops. Also jump range should be severely decreased, not just against hotdrops but against blobbing and to make the universe effectively bigger. And before the complaining SC owner starts, yes i got caps myself. Both a dread and a carrier, and their travel speed is completely ridiculous.
For all subcaps it is simply bigger = slower travel. But then come the caps (and super caps), this is actually also the reason i initially trained for dread, we have an OP 20 jumps out to kill a tower. Compared to other alliances ours were pretty close, we never had them more than one region out. But still then, making best speed for 20 jumps it is reasonable to expect 30 minutes for BS. And usually in a fleet that is still too optimistic. Then i come with my carrier/dread, press right mouse button, jump, and do in a larger ship than the BS the same in 5 seconds.

Originally by: Glyken Touchon

Would limitation be on mass

Mass, and/or ship types + amount. You could also combine different ideas, say a larger cyno requires more time to initiate or at least a longer jump-in time.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.13 13:29:00 - [42]
 

The issue stays, you dont need a larger cyno to hotdrop some SCs, even if the restriction is mass based.

Compare the thanatos and the nyx, a nyx is less than 50% more heavy than a thanatos. Lets say you put mass restriction of small one to 6B kg, which would be equal to 5 thanatos's being able to jump to it, which does not seem excessive to me for a small one. Still then you could drop 3 nyx's through the same cyno. That ****s up pretty much everyones day, especially since these days such a fleet is assembled to hotdrop interceptors (and i am serious there, that actually happened against a solo ceptor). Since the nyx's themselve will then have large cynos fitted they can always get in more help if needed.

So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.13 13:37:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: So Sensational on 13/12/2010 13:38:01
Originally by: Furb Killer
The issue stays, you dont need a larger cyno to hotdrop some SCs, even if the restriction is mass based.

Compare the thanatos and the nyx, a nyx is less than 50% more heavy than a thanatos. Lets say you put mass restriction of small one to 6B kg, which would be equal to 5 thanatos's being able to jump to it, which does not seem excessive to me for a small one. Still then you could drop 3 nyx's through the same cyno. That ****s up pretty much everyones day, especially since these days such a fleet is assembled to hotdrop interceptors (and i am serious there, that actually happened against a solo ceptor). Since the nyx's themselve will then have large cynos fitted they can always get in more help if needed.

So limit it by ship type. The secondary cynos issue is more difficult to balance, limit the amount of cynos in system or on grid within X amount of time?

Arutha Whitewolf
Posted - 2010.12.13 14:20:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: ILikeMarkets
Add a build up time for the ship creating the cyno field that is VERY obvious to others around it (big bright light or whatever)? During that time (say 15-20 seconds), if it gets shot the cyno field creation is completely disrupted.

If they are nowhere near a fight, then no problemo. If they are in a fight and get it off, it is the other side's fault for letting it happen.


This. +1

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.13 19:03:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: dankness420
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Starting with the assumption that being able to drop a dozen supercarriers onto a ratting battleship within five seconds is a Bad Thing™, how about this:

First, reduce the base cycle time of the cyno projector from 5 minutes down to 1 minute. With this change a force recon pilot can cycle that cyno in 30 seconds. No more being stuck in space for 5 minutes when you're lighting cynos for carrier logistics.

Second, make the cyno only visible to the rest of the fleet at the end of the first cycle - in much the same way that armour reppers only provide the armour boost at the end of the cycle.

Third, increment the mass that may be moved through the cyno for each cycle that the cyno is lit (the projector has to adapt to locus-specific variances in the ambient cynosural flux). Thus on the first cycle you can jump/bridge frigate/cruiser sized objects, second cycle you can fit battleships and subcaps, third cycle (1m30s) you can jump caps, fourth cycle you can jump supercaps.

This short beacon time doesn't quite permit the defenders warping to the cyno and blowing up the invading ship before defenders can arrive, but by the same token it doesn't permit dropping a dozen supercarriers on a ratting battleship before the victim can so much as type "help" in alliance chat.



Yes this idea is terrible and would make it incredibly hard to cyno into lowsec. as it is, when you light a cyno everyone flies to it to check it out. Yes I am sure my cyno will survive a minute and a half Rolling Eyes

Does anyone in this thread actually use capships ever?

Or for that matter, black ops BSes?


Maybe just support the OP then?

Medidranda Livoga
Posted - 2010.12.13 19:35:00 - [46]
 

Cyno warmup option definitely needs to be non-beaconing unti cyno activates.

One reason cyno deployed fleets are so popular is local channel which makes surprises hard to achieve due to ease of scouting.

Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.12.13 20:14:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Horizonist on 13/12/2010 20:14:45
Originally by: Medidranda Livoga
Cyno warmup option definitely needs to be non-beaconing unti cyno activates.

One reason cyno deployed fleets are so popular is local channel which makes surprises hard to achieve due to ease of scouting.


By non-beaconing, I assume you mean that the Cyno-lighter will not show up as such on the overview (whether he/she is on grid or not)?

If so, I agree, however, there should still be a significant graphical effect (not per necessity a notification) showing that somebody has started charging a Cyno. Also, of course the charging ship should be immobile for the duration of the charge, not only when the Cyno lights.

Zisi
Posted - 2010.12.13 20:28:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Zisi on 13/12/2010 20:29:31
Quote:
Cut the range of cynos so you can't teleport half way across the galaxy. Cyno problem fixed. This is not WoW, we don't need teleport.

I wouldn't nerf the range, that would cause pretty serious problems for nullsec logistics. I do agree that hot-dropping is a bit too easy, however I think this is more of a symptom of the all seeing local problem rather than directly a problem in and of itself.

You could potentially look at giving jumped ships a 10 second action delay on jumping in, combined with 10 secs of invulnerability, something like that anyway. Its hard to adjust without breaking other things. Cynoing in JF's and Carriers to station for example.

The non beaconing warmup would also be a potential option. Perhaps if your in the vicinity of a station you would be except from the warmup.

Pinky Starstrider
Posted - 2010.12.13 22:11:00 - [49]
 

To whomever had the T2 BC SB idea +1 to that. Especially if they can be taken through Bblackops portals. I don't think it should be native though, I think T3 BC's with the similar capabilities to function as T3 Cruisers would be cool. Have subsystems that allow for a SB type build, a Command Link type build, etc etc etc.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.13 22:27:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Horizonist
Edited by: Horizonist on 13/12/2010 20:14:45
Originally by: Medidranda Livoga
Cyno warmup option definitely needs to be non-beaconing unti cyno activates.

One reason cyno deployed fleets are so popular is local channel which makes surprises hard to achieve due to ease of scouting.


By non-beaconing, I assume you mean that the Cyno-lighter will not show up as such on the overview (whether he/she is on grid or not)?

If so, I agree, however, there should still be a significant graphical effect (not per necessity a notification) showing that somebody has started charging a Cyno. Also, of course the charging ship should be immobile for the duration of the charge, not only when the Cyno lights.
There should be a notification, and an overview effect or strong graphical effect. Just not have the warpable beacon, so people off-grid wouldn't know about it. People on grid should know

Jekyl Eraser
Posted - 2010.12.13 22:40:00 - [51]
 

Cyno is a bit too easy, fast, accurate and is awkward laghell when jumping into another fleet.

If i made new cyno
1 It would take 30 seconds to initiate jump. you could cancel it if you wanted. and the jump action would take another 10sec(grid loading and a time you are unable to cancel).
2 there would be probeable and scannable indicator of jump at the destination system
3 jump should be made less than 0.1AU away from a star and jump would send ship less than 1AU from the target system sun. random location.
4 you could jump accurately inside solar system with current cyno generator
5 lot shorter jump range

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.13 23:19:00 - [52]
 

long long time ago I proposed cyno idea something like this:

cyno jumping would take minimum of 20 seconds, depending on distance. When ships initiate jump, they disappear from local space but they do not immediately appear at destination (at least 20 sec wait). Once the count down started, the destination beacon will have a number appear next to it - that number is counter of ships currently in the jump. Clicking on "Show Info" on the beacon should show ship types that are in the jump (not ship names or player names).

If the cyno is disrupted before jump timer finishes, all the ships reappear back where they started.

Zisi
Posted - 2010.12.13 23:20:00 - [53]
 

Quote:
1 It would take 30 seconds to initiate jump. you could cancel it if you wanted. and the jump action would take another 10sec(grid loading and a time you are unable to cancel).

Your cyno frig would never stay alive long enough at a station for anything to jump in. Big problem for logistics unless stations were exempt from the delay.

Quote:
3 jump should be made less than 0.1AU away from a star and jump would send ship less than 1AU from the target system sun. random location.

Capital ships would get ganked *constantly*

Quote:
5 lot shorter jump range

It's short enough, keep in mind, you already have to travel your alts to wherever your jumping to. If it was any smaller it would be horrendous to get anywhere.


I'd start by removing local, see if its still a problem after a few months. If it is then I'd look at some of the ideas above.

Kai Yuen
Posted - 2010.12.14 02:56:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Originally by: masternerdguy
no!

the jump mechanic is perfect

Jump mechanic needs a fix. Its perfect for safe PvP on the cyno'ers side. PvP is not supposed to be safe. Next.


Right, cause risking a carrier fleet is sooooooooooo safe.

CorsairV
Gallente
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.14 04:01:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Tidanis
Edited by: Tidanis on 13/12/2010 07:56:56
My solution to caps/super cap blobs:

A BC sized hull with the t2 BC hulls (Drake, harbinger, myrmidon, hurricane) that is a capital sized stealth bomber-average cost ~400mil+. Give it citadel torpedo launchers, a command ship style tank ability, and some kind of Bomb launcher to ruin just supercaps/caps only, maybe a shootable dictor bubble that also works like a void bomb, maybe causes a disconnect from their fighters and forces a recall+deployment? Also allow them to cyno with a blackops and you now have a mobile supercap killer.

Edit: and would also work great for WH pos shoots.


I was totally going to suggest something like this, just not with the bomb launcher because that would require you to be within 30km of the target.

galphi
Gallente
Furnulum pani nolo
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2010.12.14 05:52:00 - [56]
 

Yeah it's a little ******ed that the biggest, slowest ships are the ones capable of being anywhere at any time so long as there's a smaller ship with a cyno. It's a weak mechanic that propagates capital ship retention (aka Capitals Online™) and reduces Eve to a game of 'Snap'.

It's been said somewhere else before, but jump gates outside of highsec should have a cyno beacon on them, allowing jump-capable ships to go straight to gates. This keeps the jump drive as a good tool for emergency exits, but means that fleets trying to snare enemies and then hotdrop them have to allow some warping time, which works for both sides.

If you want to hotdrop in the middle of a fight, use a covert cyno (which should have the skill requirements reduced) and send in a fleet of recons and bombers, actual stealth ships that really work well with surprise tactics.

Kai Yuen
Posted - 2010.12.14 07:11:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: galphi
Yeah it's a little ******ed that the biggest, slowest ships are the ones capable of being anywhere at any time so long as there's a smaller ship with a cyno. It's a weak mechanic that propagates capital ship retention (aka Capitals Online™) and reduces Eve to a game of 'Snap'.

It's been said somewhere else before, but jump gates outside of highsec should have a cyno beacon on them, allowing jump-capable ships to go straight to gates. This keeps the jump drive as a good tool for emergency exits, but means that fleets trying to snare enemies and then hotdrop them have to allow some warping time, which works for both sides.

If you want to hotdrop in the middle of a fight, use a covert cyno (which should have the skill requirements reduced) and send in a fleet of recons and bombers, actual stealth ships that really work well with surprise tactics.


Those big slow ships also happen to be some of the most expensive and skill intensive ships in the game. I can't believe that people are *****ing about hot dropping. Hot dropping is ALWAYS a risk. The big slow ships can't be anywhere they want, even if there's a cyno waiting. They have limited jump ranges and fuel bays and can not jump consecutively due to the cap needs. This is nothing more than a FW complaint department because they want carebear PvP. PvP is ALWAYS a risk. No one ever fights fair and no one is ever under the obligation to fight fair. That's EVE.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.15 02:19:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Kai Yuen
Originally by: galphi
Yeah it's a little ******ed that the biggest, slowest ships are the ones capable of being anywhere at any time so long as there's a smaller ship with a cyno. It's a weak mechanic that propagates capital ship retention (aka Capitals Online™) and reduces Eve to a game of 'Snap'.

It's been said somewhere else before, but jump gates outside of highsec should have a cyno beacon on them, allowing jump-capable ships to go straight to gates. This keeps the jump drive as a good tool for emergency exits, but means that fleets trying to snare enemies and then hotdrop them have to allow some warping time, which works for both sides.

If you want to hotdrop in the middle of a fight, use a covert cyno (which should have the skill requirements reduced) and send in a fleet of recons and bombers, actual stealth ships that really work well with surprise tactics.


Those big slow ships also happen to be some of the most expensive and skill intensive ships in the game. I can't believe that people are *****ing about hot dropping. Hot dropping is ALWAYS a risk. The big slow ships can't be anywhere they want, even if there's a cyno waiting. They have limited jump ranges and fuel bays and can not jump consecutively due to the cap needs. This is nothing more than a FW complaint department because they want carebear PvP. PvP is ALWAYS a risk. No one ever fights fair and no one is ever under the obligation to fight fair. That's EVE.


It's not about it being unfair, it's about the only counters being hotdrop as well or don't pvp in low or null sec at all.

Hotdropping does more to hurt pvp than it ever did/does to help it.

CorsairV
Gallente
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.15 04:50:00 - [59]
 

What if cynos worked like wormholes, meaning only a certain number/tonnage of ships could jump through before they collapsed?

Bobbeh
Minmatar
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.12.15 07:43:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian

It's not about it being unfair, it's about the only counters being hotdrop as well or don't pvp in low or null sec at all.

Hotdropping does more to hurt pvp than it ever did/does to help it.


K Seriously your a Tard, Hot dropping is a legitimate tactic also as any ship in the game can tackle a regular cap and a few Neut heavy BS can Ruin a Small Hot drops day. I see no problem if they hot drop you and your expecting it Fit a bunch of Neut Torp Phoons, and Neut Domis, and Neut torp Rokhs. Have a few Falcons on grid to jam them up and then take em to school.

The only thing that makes hot drops omg in lowsec is the Holy **** its a capital factor that some people seem to have.

Trust me when i say this, They are not going to;
Lower Jump Ranges
Make it Harder to Move Capitals
Make Cynos limit ships
Make A delay for jumping to a cyno
Make Caps Appear at random spots in space on purpose.

All of this would make Caps Basically useless as tactical combat assets, which is exactly what they are COMBAT assets.

Im sorry some people use their hello kitty tranytos to run missions in lowsec, but caps are meant for fighting and thats just what they'll do.

If your sooo worried about hot drops get spais into their comms then you know when its coming. Heres another crazy idea fight on the gate. if they drop you tackled people deagress and jump and non tackled people warp away and then laugh in local.

Seriously eve isnt supposed to be easy and risk free.


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