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Yamada Shinichi
Posted - 2010.12.15 03:09:00 - [241]
 

I'm sorry to say it for all the 8 year argumenters, but we already spent the time on those skills. we are simply moving where we put them. we are not regaining the time spent. I personally feel sorry for the older players losing their optimal training speed on their uber trained characters. You can look at the math all you want but the facts still remain the time has been spent as well as a little isk. I'm sad to see both those get overlooked so much and thrown to the side like they never happened.

Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
Posted - 2010.12.15 06:12:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: DR Blues
1 extra remap point wil solve the 72 debate Laughing

No one thats going to lose the 72 sp needs a remap thats the point

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2010.12.15 06:22:00 - [243]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 15/12/2010 06:24:07

Originally by: Joba'Set
Originally by: DR Blues
1 extra remap point wil solve the 72 debate Laughing

No one thats going to lose the 72 sp needs a remap thats the point

* raises hand*

Well I don't really need an extra remap (I have one ready) but if that means I'll have two (like a starter character) I can train some extra charisma skills at max speed before remapping to per/wil! Razz

Like this:
Originally by: Sabr Sheppard
I've been saving my remap after hearing the news about Learning Skills. Though I might be in favor of a plus 1 remap for everyone, in which case I'd have two remaps available on Tuesday.

Pellit1
Caldari
Fatality.
Posted - 2010.12.15 10:40:00 - [244]
 

Edited by: Pellit1 on 15/12/2010 10:40:30
My understanding is that if you've invested the most time with CCP you're getting slightly shafted? Not heard of that before Rolling Eyes
Can anyone tell me under what circumstances you're going to train 72sp/h slower?

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:04:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Pellit1

Can anyone tell me under what circumstances you're going to train 72sp/h slower?

remaped to max Pri and secondary skill + +5 implants
training a skill for one of those....

Pellit1
Caldari
Fatality.
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:17:00 - [246]
 

Ah ok then. I guess I won't be affected as I had basics trained to 5 and advanced to 4. Can't wait to distribute my Learning sp around.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:32:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Joba'Set
Originally by: DR Blues
1 extra remap point wil solve the 72 debate Laughing

No one thats going to lose the 72 sp needs a remap thats the point

You missed the point.

He's saying 1 extra re-mappable point, would come close to solving the 72sp/h issue. This was in fact, the idea put forward by the CSM.

Joe450
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:33:00 - [248]
 

Q: if i have remapped and not due to remap till march, can i still add the 12 points i will get to map as i see fit?


if that makes any sence, i know what i mean just hope you can understand the question

Davelantor
Caldari
The Resistance Movement
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:33:00 - [249]
 

Q:Why cant i transfer skill points between characters if they are under the same account.

reasoning: I have used my other chars to performs specific goals, and i no longer find the need to train them any further, but also invested my subscription time to train learning skills in those characters. In that way, the skill points that will be reimbursed will essentially going to be useless to me for those 2 characters.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:34:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Joe450
Q: if i have remapped and not due to remap till march, can i still add the 12 points i will get to map as i see fit?


if that makes any sence, i know what i mean just hope you can understand the question

The 12 points to each attribute we get with this change, are fixed. They cannot be mapped.

Joe450
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:37:00 - [251]
 

ty

Tarartia
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:40:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Yu Ruguru
I debate strongly against anyone losing anything at all (unless you have just maxxed out your training skills and have not trained any other skills - but then again you probably have benefitted from the recent bonusses so that makes even that argument redundant)

In short to illustrate this further as follows:
1) X and Y both get the same cars and start a race to cross a continent
2) X maxxes out his car and starts later but travels faster so travels further over time
3) Y starts traveling straight away but goes slower covering less distance (possibly much less distance than X over a reasonably short period of time)

NOW at a particular point in time the race organisers introduces a new ruling making both equal in power. X loses slightly but gets a bonus equal to the time it took to modify his car.

What X does not understand it that he already benefited from his initial upgrade (since learning skills do not take that long to train, face it, and you have probably trained a crapload of skills since) and has therefore already gained substantial distance over Y.

This should put X further ahead of Y by some margin. The only difference is that X will lose some advantage over Y in the long run but the whole argument about losing in totality is crap since X has already enjoyed some benefit from his initial choice to upgrade in the first place.
The result however is a much more balanced race that in the long run will ensure more participation and therefore more ability for the race organisers to introduce better racing for all racers including X and Y as well as for the rest of the field.


Except for the fact that in this analogy after the race organisers introduce the new rule, it is no longer a 'race' anymore, because all participants are travelling at the same rate from then on. Y can no longer draw ahead of X at a rate of 72SP/hr. Yeah, sure, you can remap, and chose different career paths, but that becomes comparing apples with oranges. Even assuming that Y is totally benevolent to all other 'racers' and is more than happy to have them catch up with him, his own personal race is now being run at -72SP/hr.

This point is yet to be addressed by anyone at CCP.

And -72SP/hr issue is symbolic of the extreme scenario due to the change. The same dynamic of a relative penalty holds true for player 'A' with 5/5 versus player 'B' with 4/5... Why does player 'B' get a proportionally better bonus relative to player 'A'? Sure, 'A' is not actually harmed (if you really want to get into here, que the tangent into the argument about 'opportunity cost'), but 'B' gains a proportionally better benefit for no apparent rationale.

Also, if anyone brings up the 8 year argument again, please go study formal logic, with an emphasis on spotting fallacies, you will grow as a person.

Tsetra
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.12.15 13:52:00 - [253]
 

The 8-year argument is indeed extremely silly. What, do you expect EVE to only survive for that long?

Jesus christ, seriously. As if it makes up for anything. It's like saying "Sorry we stole your $5000 car but here's $2500 to make up for it".

What if you'll be playing EVE for the next 16 years, not 8?

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.12.15 13:55:00 - [254]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 15/12/2010 13:55:40
Originally by: Tsetra
The 8-year argument is indeed extremely silly. What, do you expect EVE to only survive for that long?

Jesus christ, seriously. As if it makes up for anything. It's like saying "Sorry we stole your $5000 car but here's $2500 to make up for it".

What if you'll be playing EVE for the next 16 years, not 8?


The 72sp is worst than the 8years argument. WTF are your whinings about?

EvilFighter123
Posted - 2010.12.15 14:37:00 - [255]
 

Edited by: EvilFighter123 on 15/12/2010 14:37:23
(sarcasm)Internet Spaceships, srs bznz.(sarcasm)

stop whining.

it doesn't matter either way.

CCP is all powerful and i respect most of their decisions.

GTC is still an excellent way to combat RMT. GJ CCP Very Happy

Veryez
Posted - 2010.12.15 16:20:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Mike deVoid
Edited by: Mike deVoid on 12/12/2010 22:45:32
Thought I'd post this as someone was asking about training speed

Some quick number crunching for everyone curious.

Present (5/5 learnings +5 implants):
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (primary): 33pt.
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (secondary): 26.4pt.
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2772 SP/hour.

Present (5/4 learnings +5 implants):
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (primary): 31.9pt.
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (secondary): 25.3pt.
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2673 SP/hour.

Future ([bright or not] +5 implants):
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (primary): 32pt.
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (secondary): 26pt.
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2700 SP/hour.

So *if* you have trained to 5/5 then your maximum possible rate drop by 72 sp/hr at most as this assumes you wear your +5 implants all the time. Because of the 5.376,000 SP reimbursement you won't feel any nerf for a minimum of just over 8.5 years. That figure drops by about 1 year for each Advanced Learning you only put to lvl 4.

For 5/4 and below, it's a boost.


Not quite correct: Since the break even is closest to training one advanced learning to lvl 5 (all the rest @ 4) (speed 2706 sp/hr) the difference in SP is only 2,528,940. In other words, for all your time spent training you lose the advantage in about 4 years. So it's a nerf for those who invested the time and money in EvE. And not as insignificent as you think, I know many players past the 4 year mark.

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2010.12.15 16:54:00 - [257]
 

"Q:Will I get a free remap?
A: Yes, Merry Christmas"

Reality i had a remap in hand and as such got nothing, bit liek why do I buy toilet paper when ccp will just replace my bum logic seems to win the day.

Also I'm probably misreading things but for every intent was somewhat lead to believe everybody would be no worse off than they are now and indeed better off. I say misreading as prior to this I had 3 days 8 hours left to complete Amarr Battleship L5, it not informs me it will take 3 days 19 hours, given thats a not too insermoutable difference which equates to about a day a week.
or perhaps the veiwpoint that thats 52 days in a year or around 7.5 weeks.

So in effect if I trained the skills now I'm loosing out nearly 2 months a year now compared to before, thats a hell of a difference there sonny to not be mentioning.




EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
Posted - 2010.12.15 17:05:00 - [258]
 

Q
For all but one of 6 accounts with max training the training time for their current skill has increased by a small amount. Was this intended?

Knalldari Testpilot
Posted - 2010.12.15 20:36:00 - [259]
 

Edited by: Knalldari Testpilot on 15/12/2010 20:48:37
Edited by: Knalldari Testpilot on 15/12/2010 20:46:57
Originally by: Debir Achen
(...)

PS: why the heck were people training off-main attributes to advanced 5 anyway? It takes (took?) 632235 SP to go from advanced 4 to advanced 5. It takes 400 DAYS (over a year) of training in skills with that attribute as primary to pay that training off, which is more than enough time to remap TWICE. Training to advanced 5 is (was) strictly only for people who already had that attribute as primary AND fully remapped to that attribute.


attribute remapping introduced in eve long time after people trained all their learning skills to V (max).
so how to plan these side effects without the ability to see in the future?

//€dith
and my ingame jukebox is STILL NOT WORKING!!!!11111oneleven
(not to mention: it's broken since 1 year)

Knalldari Testpilot
Posted - 2010.12.15 21:27:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Kromartie
Edited by: Kromartie on 13/12/2010 10:32:04
Q: Was there any technical reason why you could not have left the quick to train rank 1 “Learning” skill in game? Perhaps this skill could have been moved to social or science group? The other 10 skills could have been removed and you could have just added +10 to the attributes.

This would have ensured nobody came out of this worse off and at the same time still removed 5,120,000 SP from the Learning group.

I will be disappointed if I come out of this worse off (630k SP a year) and I remind everyone that reimbursement of the learning SP is not a gift or a favour, this is simply CCP doing the right thing. Those are SP already earned at a much slower rate and they have no bearing on the drop in attribute points or training rate in the future. I don’t want a free remap, I just want to be able to train at the same rate and I hope something can be done in a later patch to correct this.

Edit: These questions were not answered in the blog thread.

That aside this is the only game I’m still playing after 7 years, thanks for all the hard work CCP and have a great Christmas.


simply this!

Xyzibit
Caldari
New-Roots
Posted - 2010.12.15 21:59:00 - [261]
 

what about the 72sp/hQuestion <-- plz answer

Swren1
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2010.12.15 22:16:00 - [262]
 

Quote:
Q: How does this affect my attributes?
A: After the change you will be given 12 attribute points in each attribute. This means the default attributes will be 20/20/20/20/19 with Charisma being the 19.


Why did I only get 17 base accross all? I must be drunk again and not reading this crap correctly.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.15 22:52:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Swren1
Quote:
Q: How does this affect my attributes?
A: After the change you will be given 12 attribute points in each attribute. This means the default attributes will be 20/20/20/20/19 with Charisma being the 19.


Why did I only get 17 base accross all?

Cuz CCP has got it in for you, is why.

The other answer: 5 + 12 = 17 base. With evenly distributed, 14 remappable points, that comes to 20/20/20/20/19.

Pesets
The Hunt Club
Posted - 2010.12.16 02:40:00 - [264]
 

So are those bonus remaps, or just timer reset on regular remap? I.e. if my last remap was, say, nine months ago, and i use the remap now, will i be able to again in three months or in a year?

Originally by: Swren1
Quote:
Q: How does this affect my attributes?
A: After the change you will be given 12 attribute points in each attribute. This means the default attributes will be 20/20/20/20/19 with Charisma being the 19.


Why did I only get 17 base accross all? I must be drunk again and not reading this crap correctly.


You used to have 5 base, plus up to 10 in learning skills, plus about two extra points from the 10% bonus of the Learning skill itself. So they basically just incorporated the learning bonus points into the base points, as if everyone had all learnings trained to 5.

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.16 03:19:00 - [265]
 

Just wanted to drop a note to CCP and tell them thanks for the Christmas Presents. Nice ship... Thanks for the learning skill removal also, My currently training skill went from 1d 2h 23m 12s to 1d 5h 35m 18s. Wonderful bonus, Maybe I can get +5 implants to speed it up... Nope, already have them. Guess thats as good as it will ever get.

I was nerfed, like WoW does all the time. Was EVE bought by Blizzard?!?!

So glad CSM/CCP stated 'No one will train slower than they currently do'. Nice standing by your word... :-(

Raisiana
Posted - 2010.12.16 03:45:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: qaz zaq
Was EVE bought by Blizzard?!?!




BANG!

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.12.16 05:32:00 - [267]
 

If the remap timer was just reset and there is no plan to give the same benefit those with a timer as those with an existing remap received CCP is showing that they are either lazy or believe in deliberately treating players unevenly (not accidentally but deliberately).

(if so) I strongly suspect that it is because they were too lazy. I give them more credit than to purposefully rub their hands together and think "lets go out of our way to stick these guys with a short portion".

Lazy ? Commitment to something second-rate instead of excellent?

They would have needed to do a little database coding or something to make it so a timer kept going despite recieving an extra remap... maybe they would have had to re-write their prior code for handling that sort of thing. I'm not a programmer but in the scope of this huge and complicated aplplication I'd got to think that a pretty low level guy could figure out where and how to code in a few algorithms that would handle it.

So... I'm thinking that the were just lazy and not commited to excellence.

A third possiblity is that they are poor communicators and didn't have the words to explain what was going to happen to make sure that all people were treated evenly.

Pesets
The Hunt Club
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:43:00 - [268]
 

They have already implemented a "bonus remap" mechanic for new characters. I'm not necessarily saying they screwed this up, i'm just asking to be sure.

Before the patch, my normal remap was due to be available in a few months. Now i have one. My question is, if i remap now, will i still get another remap in a few months, or will i need to wait for a whole another year? It's kinda hard to tell from the attributes screen, it just says i have one right now.

Chuc Morris
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:54:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Pesets
They have already implemented a "bonus remap" mechanic for new characters. I'm not necessarily saying they screwed this up, i'm just asking to be sure.

Before the patch, my normal remap was due to be available in a few months. Now i have one. My question is, if i remap now, will i still get another remap in a few months, or will i need to wait for a whole another year? It's kinda hard to tell from the attributes screen, it just says i have one right now.


If you use it today then you'll have to wait one year from today to have another one.Wink

DJWiggles
Gallente
Eve Radio Corporation
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:14:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Keti Loovic
Originally by: DJWiggles
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist


Q: *Your question here*
A:


Can I have a Pony?

Love and kisses..

Wiggles


ROFL! Epic responce Wiggles! Cool


Well I was chatting to just as he posted this and I HAD to post it ... Im sad that he hasn't said I can have one


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