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Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2010.12.13 20:01:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Chribba
Hopefully you will do; update charInfo set skillpool = skillpool + learningSkillsSP

Rather than skillpool = learningSkillsSP

RIGHT? Rolling Eyes

Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Q: Will the learning skill points overwrite any existing bonus skillpoints, like from the unexpected server downtime a few months ago?
A: Nope! They will be added to your skill point queue and the will not expire. Use them now or savor them like a tasty treat for later.

I guess so?

Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
Posted - 2010.12.13 20:22:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Joba''Set on 13/12/2010 20:24:29
Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
There are better reasons to protest about the new system than going 'I'm losing training speed! whine' ... such as the guy who suggested that RMT and bots in general might benefit more from this change. I must say that's a far more compelling argument. Not sure how I feel about it, myself.

I do like that new players will benefit greatly, and that means more targets or companions in the future, but I have a hard time ignoring the bot point, now, thanks to that being brought up.

Its only a whine to you because you not losing it. YOu read everything in thread "no". Becasue its not just about the time lost our voted in player reps that have not even chimed in on this issue yet because CCP also lied to them. There is so much more to this than you can see and that is why CCP has not even responed to the problem. And If we dont ***** and whine as you say things will never change. This was the 1st time I really thought Well maybe things are really turning around but nope!!

The problem was brought up weeks ago on test sever and they blew it off and would not even talk about it just like they are doing here.

arcyaxiom
Posted - 2010.12.13 20:29:00 - [213]
 

Stealth edit to now read "Wednesday December 15th" I smell conspiracy!!! :P

Lame :( I was going to have celebratory pudding to mark the occassion as well!

VeNc0tju
Gallente
Muppet Factory
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.12.13 21:42:00 - [214]
 

Q: What about skill books in corp hanger?
Q: Do we get a free new remap?


Guy Ferox
Posted - 2010.12.13 21:46:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Guy Ferox

Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: Thorleifer
so are we getting a remap or not? it is a simple question, I think it is only fair to give us a free remap.


There will be no free remap as remaps are not being changed.

As CCP Greyscale has already said, if it is not in the blog it is not happening.


http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1420510&page=13

line 389
took me 13 pages to find this because the ccp guys here are too lazy to say yes, your remap timer is getting reset, or no we are not changeing the timer.


no your remap timer is not reset

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.12.13 21:55:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: VeNc0tju
Q: What about skill books in corp hanger?



The ISK goes into the corp wallet. That is what the devblog said.


Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2010.12.13 22:37:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Alejan Gerakh on 13/12/2010 22:43:53
Originally by: Joba'Set
Edited by: Joba''Set on 13/12/2010 20:24:29
Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
There are better reasons to protest about the new system than going 'I'm losing training speed! whine' ... such as the guy who suggested that RMT and bots in general might benefit more from this change. I must say that's a far more compelling argument. Not sure how I feel about it, myself.

I do like that new players will benefit greatly, and that means more targets or companions in the future, but I have a hard time ignoring the bot point, now, thanks to that being brought up.

Its only a whine to you because you not losing it. YOu read everything in thread "no". Becasue its not just about the time lost our voted in player reps that have not even chimed in on this issue yet because CCP also lied to them. There is so much more to this than you can see and that is why CCP has not even responed to the problem. And If we dont ***** and whine as you say things will never change. This was the 1st time I really thought Well maybe things are really turning around but nope!!

The problem was brought up weeks ago on test sever and they blew it off and would not even talk about it just like they are doing here.

Miss the part where I said I was one of the few who did train up my Learning skills entirely?
Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
I'm pretty satisfied with this, even though I am one of those few who trained the Learning Skills all the way up.

But I suppose you make a good point about 'lies'. I personally don't think it's worth getting bent out of shape about. So I'm losing some training speed.. I still have ridiculous amounts of SP to reallocate once this is implemented and I, at least, am willing to take this, even if I'm being nerfed. (A nerf I won't technically notice for 8 years, anyway)

Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
Posted - 2010.12.13 23:13:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
Edited by: Alejan Gerakh on 13/12/2010 22:43:53
Originally by: Joba'Set
Edited by: Joba''Set on 13/12/2010 20:24:29
Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
There are better reasons to protest about the new system than going 'I'm losing training speed! whine' ... such as the guy who suggested that RMT and bots in general might benefit more from this change. I must say that's a far more compelling argument. Not sure how I feel about it, myself.

I do like that new players will benefit greatly, and that means more targets or companions in the future, but I have a hard time ignoring the bot point, now, thanks to that being brought up.

Its only a whine to you because you not losing it. YOu read everything in thread "no". Becasue its not just about the time lost our voted in player reps that have not even chimed in on this issue yet because CCP also lied to them. There is so much more to this than you can see and that is why CCP has not even responed to the problem. And If we dont ***** and whine as you say things will never change. This was the 1st time I really thought Well maybe things are really turning around but nope!!

The problem was brought up weeks ago on test sever and they blew it off and would not even talk about it just like they are doing here.

Miss the part where I said I was one of the few who did train up my Learning skills entirely?
Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
I'm pretty satisfied with this, even though I am one of those few who trained the Learning Skills all the way up.

But I suppose you make a good point about 'lies'. I personally don't think it's worth getting bent out of shape about. So I'm losing some training speed.. I still have ridiculous amounts of SP to reallocate once this is implemented and I, at least, am willing to take this, even if I'm being nerfed. (A nerf I won't technically notice for 8 years, anyway)


Well 8 years is really not true. Its about 10 days a year of training added to a plan. So More or less I got to train a extra 10 day skill that really not there every year. And you dont Have to have all at lvl 5 just learning and the 2 top skills with inplants rest can be at 4. I just wish CCP or Csm would Say something anything. I trained that 10 Day lvl 5 for no reason now. But the years I had it I gained on my Friends 630k skill points a year and Past most that started 6 months before me

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2010.12.13 23:40:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: Alejan Gerakh on 13/12/2010 23:53:53
Originally by: Joba'Set
Well 8 years is really not true. Its about 10 days a year of training added to a plan. So More or less I got to train a extra 10 day skill that really not there every year. And you dont Have to have all at lvl 5 just learning and the 2 top skills with inplants rest can be at 4. I just wish CCP or Csm would Say something anything. I trained that 10 Day lvl 5 for no reason now. But the years I had it I gained on my Friends 630k skill points a year and Past most that started 6 months before me

I said 8 years because that's apparently the estimate of how long the difference in SP gain speed will work its way through the skill points that will soon be freed for reallocation. 10 days per year, yes, but I'd like to think that we are getting back the skill points invested and that it will take years before the training it took for those points truly starts to be wasted. For those who just trained the two most important, I'm not sure. Probably a few years until the drop in point gain catches up with you (EDIT: Apparently it comes out to about 5 years until it 'eats' through your Learning skill SP refund, using the worst rate loss possible, if you only trained two of them to 5). Yes, I suppose you'd all like to see the points as just a refund and not extra, but I feel they should be treated as both. New players (and all those others who didn't invest in the skills) that are being bounced up to this speed won't get them. They'll still be behind by however many million points we're refunded. In the end, I still find it a minor loss. But you go ahead and champion that cause. I'm certainly not about to bar you from the crusade for our lost 10 days a year.

Sabr Sheppard
Gallente
Brotherhood of Redemption
Seven Seas Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.13 23:43:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Black998
Do we get a free attribute remap?

Please no. I've been saving my remap after hearing the news about Learning Skills. Though I might be in favor of a plus 1 remap for everyone, in which case I'd have two remaps available on Tuesday.

Mike deVoid
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2010.12.14 00:20:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Joba'Set
Well 8 years is really not true. Its about 10 days a year of training added to a plan. So More or less I got to train a extra 10 day skill that really not there every year. And you dont Have to have all at lvl 5 just learning and the 2 top skills with inplants rest can be at 4. I just wish CCP or Csm would Say something anything. I trained that 10 Day lvl 5 for no reason now. But the years I had it I gained on my Friends 630k skill points a year and Past most that started 6 months before me


The 8 years is calculated thusly:

Present (5/5 learnings +5 implants):
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (primary): 33pt.
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (secondary): 26.4pt.
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2772 SP/hour.

Present (5/4 learnings +5 implants):
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (primary): 31.9pt.
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (secondary): 25.3pt.
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2673 SP/hour.

Future ([bright or not] +5 implants):
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (primary): 32pt.
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (secondary): 26pt.
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2700 SP/hour.

So *if* you have trained to 5/5 then your *maximum* possible rate drop by 72 sp/hr at most as this assumes you wear your +5 implants all the time. Because of the 5.376,000 SP reimbursement you won't feel any nerf for a minimum of just over 8.5 years. That figure drops by about 1 year for each Advanced Learning you only put to lvl 4.

For 5/4 and below, it's a boost.

Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
Posted - 2010.12.14 00:40:00 - [222]
 

Edited by: Joba''Set on 14/12/2010 00:43:18
Edited by: Joba''Set on 14/12/2010 00:41:59
What I was saying is the Skill "learning" needs to be 5 and say Logic and Eidtic memory for MEM/int 33/26.4rest of the 3x can be at lvl 4 like presence and so on. Lot more people can do this than you think. They just may have messed up plan or remap wrong.

The 8 years has nothing to do with it! its the xtra 10 days a year. If you did it like above you dont have 5.3 mill skill point you got like 3.xx (not looking it up) the 8 years is a bogus number. I for 1 have 3 accounts and not 1 has Presece 5. So I get my only 4,743,765 back! I would get about 1.2 mill less if I did it like numbers above. See my point 8 years is not even close to right better to look at it as 10 days a year nerf. or -630k a year sp gain..
the 8 year thing dose not apply to every1

Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
Posted - 2010.12.14 00:49:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Sabr Sheppard
Originally by: Black998
Do we get a free attribute remap?

Please no. I've been saving my remap after hearing the news about Learning Skills. Though I might be in favor of a plus 1 remap for everyone, in which case I'd have two remaps available on Tuesday.


Dude I hope you, Do but I dought it. But CCP Shafted us 33/26.4 guys only be fair to let you get max sp like we can. ( Yea I said it )

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2010.12.14 01:00:00 - [224]
 

No remap is necessary, your BASE stats are being reset, not the remappable points. They are the same as they were before.

Max Thunderbird
Posted - 2010.12.14 01:31:00 - [225]
 

The 8 year argument is bogus and does not apply to anyone.

Excluding training during downtime for simplification

Total SP before change = x
Allocatable SP after change = y
Total SP after change = z or x-y
Allocate your SP and new total SP = x or z+y

with numbers

Total SP before change = 20,000,000
Allocatable SP after change = 5,000,000
Total SP after change = 15,000,000
Allocate your SP and new total SP = 20,000,000

Unless there is some type of error total SP after change will not be greater than total SP before change.

One year after change, both assume y has been allocated

Old maximum total SP possible x + 24,282,720
New maximum total SP possible x + 23,652,000

Clearly the old maximum total SP possible is higher (unless CCP Santa takes me back in time for re-training so I can understand that 23 mil is greater than 24 mil).

Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
Posted - 2010.12.14 01:48:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Max Thunderbird
The 8 year argument is bogus and does not apply to anyone.

Excluding training during downtime for simplification

Total SP before change = x
Allocatable SP after change = y
Total SP after change = z or x-y
Allocate your SP and new total SP = x or z+y

with numbers

Total SP before change = 20,000,000
Allocatable SP after change = 5,000,000
Total SP after change = 15,000,000
Allocate your SP and new total SP = 20,000,000

Unless there is some type of error total SP after change will not be greater than total SP before change.

One year after change, both assume y has been allocated

Old maximum total SP possible x + 24,282,720
New maximum total SP possible x + 23,652,000

Clearly the old maximum total SP possible is higher (unless CCP Santa takes me back in time for re-training so I can understand that 23 mil is greater than 24 mil).

Yea I like that also what he said

Sabr Sheppard
Gallente
Brotherhood of Redemption
Seven Seas Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.14 02:58:00 - [227]
 

Edited by: Sabr Sheppard on 14/12/2010 02:59:32
Edited by: Sabr Sheppard on 14/12/2010 02:58:45
Originally by: Max Thunderbird
Clearly the old maximum total SP possible is higher (unless CCP Santa takes me back in time for re-training so I can understand that 23 mil is greater than 24 mil).

I Agree that you can not train as fast as you could before assuming you invested the time and isk for the skills / implants but as I pointed out in my post, over the course of an entire year you loose 242.75 hours out of 8766 hours in a year. That's 10 days; 44 minutes; 7 seconds of additional training time or 2.77% less efficient per year. It's not the end of the world and most people, including me, will see a net gain (I will actually take a hit on a few attributes but only by < 1 point).

Also can people please stop saying that you wont feel a nerf for 8 years. Not everyone has every learning skill trained to V and even if they did or you calculated for their SP, the SP being given out is a refund. Not a gift. You already earned them so technically you start to feel the 10 day training time / year nerf from day one.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.12.14 03:37:00 - [228]
 

Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 14/12/2010 03:38:15
To the waste of oxygen crowd of the "I'm getting screwed cause I was all 5s!" ...

You are losing 72 sp/hr you are being given 5m sp to spend where ever the frack you want. You say but I am losing my learning skills!! no you're not you damn cry babies... How the frack did you get so far in eve without the ability to read? You are having the learning skills removed, and replaced with nearly equivalent attributes + 5 m sp! You didn't train the learning skills for any reason other than gaining attributes.

When they nerfed your MWD, or your Webs or ... you name it, did you quit? no you're still here. Get over it, the change is happening, quit your *****ing, this change will give you more people to fight. CCP didn't have to reimburse you, to those who say buy I wanted long term, you get it, you get 5 m sp, for fu cks sake.

IF YOU REALLY CAN'T take it, then please unsubscribe.

I can't figure out how anyone with all 5s could fail so absolutely miserably at reading and logic. It's pathetic, really it is.


Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.12.14 03:39:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: VeNc0tju
Q: What about skill books in corp hanger?
Q: Do we get a free new remap?




Asked and answered on the first page and devblog, if you can't be bothered to read, why should we be bothered to answer?

EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
Posted - 2010.12.14 04:22:00 - [230]
 

Q: Is it true that before a change made long ago some learning skills used to be a higher rank?

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2010.12.14 04:44:00 - [231]
 

Edited by: BiggestT on 14/12/2010 04:45:50
Originally by: Mashie Saldana

Is there an undo button when you add/destroy implants? Is there an undo button if you set the wrong skill to train for a few weeks?


Ahh but you can see your mistake seconds after you apply the skill and then change it, if you see a mistake after applying the skillpool you can't.

And implants are different, you get fair warning and implant changes are much rarer so people are generally more careful, however when it comes to skills people are less attentive and may make mistakes..

This won't affect me, I'll be damn careful when applying them, but it may help CCP avoid three million petitions and whine threads on the forums Wink

Sabr Sheppard
Gallente
Brotherhood of Redemption
Seven Seas Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.14 05:12:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel

I can't figure out how anyone with all 5s could fail so absolutely miserably at reading and logic. It's pathetic, really it is.


Analytical Mind at 0?
Remap for Perception / Willpower?

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.14 06:13:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: I''thari on 14/12/2010 06:35:20
Edited by: I''thari on 14/12/2010 06:13:59
Originally by: Mike deVoid
So *if* you have trained to 5/5 then your *maximum* possible rate drop by 72 sp/hr at most as this assumes you wear your +5 implants all the time. Because of the 5.376,000 SP reimbursement you won't feel any nerf for a minimum of just over 8.5 years. That figure drops by about 1 year for each Advanced Learning you only put to lvl 4.
I'ts not 8.5 years since all learning skills you have up to 5/4 are reimbursed with learning speed, and 5/5 are reimbursed only with SP, so if
Originally by: Mike deVoid
That figure drops by about 1 year for each Advanced Learning you only put to lvl 4
it only should be 5 years max (-1 year for each not trained to 5) which is about right, because that's what, as I remember, was point when those skills pay for themselves.


PS also, if you insist on a math so:

Originally by: Mike deVoid
The 8 years is calculated thusly:

Present (5/5 learnings +5 implants):
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2772 SP/hour.

Present (5/4 learnings +5 implants):
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2673 SP/hour.

makes 99 SP/h difference

Originally by: Mike deVoid
Future ([bright or not] +5 implants):
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2700 SP/hour.

considering that it's faster than 5/4s we also partially get reimbrsed in traning speed which is: (99-72)/99 = 0.[27], so roughly 27%.

That decreases mentioned above 5 years to: 5(1-0.27)= 3.6 years (-8.6 months for every skill not trained to 5)

where, oh where 8.5 years gone, I wonder? Rolling Eyes

flooper doodle
Posted - 2010.12.14 11:22:00 - [234]
 

90% of the questions here can be summed up with

L2Read. Or, umad?

It's 72SP an hour. Not that bad. Wasn't there some calculation that said you have to play for 4-5+ years after training a tier 2 skill to 5 to even break even?

Yu Ruguru
Posted - 2010.12.14 12:10:00 - [235]
 

I debate strongly against anyone losing anything at all (unless you have just maxxed out your training skills and have not trained any other skills - but then again you probably have benefitted from the recent bonusses so that makes even that argument redundant)

In short to illustrate this further as follows:
1) X and Y both get the same cars and start a race to cross a continent
2) X maxxes out his car and starts later but travels faster so travels further over time
3) Y starts traveling straight away but goes slower covering less distance (possibly much less distance than X over a reasonably short period of time)

NOW at a particular point in time the race organisers introduces a new ruling making both equal in power. X loses slightly but gets a bonus equal to the time it took to modify his car.

What X does not understand it that he already benefited from his initial upgrade (since learning skills do not take that long to train, face it, and you have probably trained a crapload of skills since) and has therefore already gained substantial distance over Y.

This should put X further ahead of Y by some margin. The only difference is that X will lose some advantage over Y in the long run but the whole argument about losing in totality is crap since X has already enjoyed some benefit from his initial choice to upgrade in the first place.
The result however is a much more balanced race that in the long run will ensure more participation and therefore more ability for the race organisers to introduce better racing for all racers including X and Y as well as for the rest of the field.

Hype
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:38:00 - [236]
 

The above poster sums it up perfectly.
You will loose your advantage on future training but have the extra skillpoints that advantage have given you so far.
The only thing you 5/5/5 guys loose out "instantly" is total SP numer and an advantage over +5 guys that isn't 5/5 (so for instance you still train faster than me 5/5 but +4 impants) - and if you can't deal with a change like this you shouldn't be playin an mmo.
What your character can actually do will be the same untill you have spend your reimbursed points. So only spend those 630k once each year - in your "remapped catagory" or you will benefit from this ! ;)
Originally by: Yu Ruguru
I debate strongly against anyone losing anything at all (unless you have just maxxed out your training skills and have not trained any other skills - but then again you probably have benefitted from the recent bonusses so that makes even that argument redundant)

In short to illustrate this further as follows:
1) X and Y both get the same cars and start a race to cross a continent
2) X maxxes out his car and starts later but travels faster so travels further over time
3) Y starts traveling straight away but goes slower covering less distance (possibly much less distance than X over a reasonably short period of time)

NOW at a particular point in time the race organisers introduces a new ruling making both equal in power. X loses slightly but gets a bonus equal to the time it took to modify his car.

What X does not understand it that he already benefited from his initial upgrade (since learning skills do not take that long to train, face it, and you have probably trained a crapload of skills since) and has therefore already gained substantial distance over Y.

This should put X further ahead of Y by some margin. The only difference is that X will lose some advantage over Y in the long run but the whole argument about losing in totality is crap since X has already enjoyed some benefit from his initial choice to upgrade in the first place.
The result however is a much more balanced race that in the long run will ensure more participation and therefore more ability for the race organisers to introduce better racing for all racers including X and Y as well as for the rest of the field.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.12.14 14:09:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: oolk
So if I have 30 intel,Ill get 25 max with +5s...

yay.

No.

Oh look, an easy to understand picture:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Kromartie
Posted - 2010.12.14 16:56:00 - [238]
 

Edited by: Kromartie on 30/12/2010 12:34:49
Sad

DR Blues
Posted - 2010.12.14 22:36:00 - [239]
 

1 extra remap point wil solve the 72 debate Laughing

electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.12.15 01:13:00 - [240]
 

Q: What about the yokels that somehow have more than the maximum possible sp in learning? Will they be getting those excess sp as well? I.E. these top yokels


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