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Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:17:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: qaz zaq
Edited by: qaz zaq on 13/12/2010 05:13:19
Edited by: qaz zaq on 13/12/2010 05:10:14
Also an interesting detail during the CSM/CCP meeting notes (Raw log)

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modify_or_Remove_Learning_Skills_%28CSM%29

Which was agreed upon or stated as an Important concern:

----------
Important Caveats
Whichever method is chosen, the following guidelines must apply:

No player should train at a rate slower than their current rate.

---------

I believe that training at a rate of 72 sp/hr slower than now is "slower than their current rate????"


Hmm, interesting concept. Not going by their own rules and agreements with CSM.


lol I would Have loved to have found this 1st when we tested . But for some reason I betting this post will disappear soon.

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:27:00 - [122]
 

:-) Well, seems the CSM is not as 'powerful' or 'Important' as we thought. Funny thing is, that even though this is a stated item in both the Raw logs and Evepedia, the CSM members haven't said one thing in regards to it and niether has CCP. Interesting the Silence heard in these halls, about something they stated would never happen.

Thats Life!

Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:32:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Joba''Set on 13/12/2010 05:32:37
From Test forum msg 66

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Kelby
Becuase of the way the "Learning" skill worked (with my current implants and remap) my Perception has dropped from 33 to 32.


Yes, as far as I know that is the design we're sticking with.
I understand that's annoying but it's not in my power to change. Please don't turn this topic into a discussion on the design. I need results from the test not opinions on things I cannot change.

However, changing an integer in the update is not rocket science so this test is just as valid for + 12 as it is for +0< X < MAX_INT.

white kight
Helljumpers
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:35:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: white kight on 13/12/2010 05:35:41
Originally by: qaz zaq
Edited by: qaz zaq on 13/12/2010 05:13:19
Edited by: qaz zaq on 13/12/2010 05:10:14
Also an interesting detail during the CSM/CCP meeting notes (Raw log)

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modify_or_Remove_Learning_Skills_%28CSM%29

Which was agreed upon or stated as an Important concern:

----------
Important Caveats
Whichever method is chosen, the following guidelines must apply:

No player should train at a rate slower than their current rate.

---------

I believe that training at a rate of 72 sp/hr slower than now is "slower than their current rate????"


Hmm, interesting concept. Not going by their own rules and agreements with CSM.


Maybe CCP didn't anticipate the amount of people crying over 72sp/h. FFS, if you all cry over this, what will happen when ccp changes something that really affects you?

Q: Do we get a free Neural Remap?
A:?

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:40:00 - [125]
 

Stating the facts and the truth about promises, etc is not QQ'ing. It is stating the truth and facts.

If CSM is actually advocates FOR players, and they stated that 'no one learns slower than currently', where is their response? As well as CCP's?

And standing up for something you believe is unfair as agreed upon, is not crying.

Also, trying to figure out why you actually care? Stop reading the forums if the content is not what you want to read.

white kight
Helljumpers
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:46:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: white kight on 13/12/2010 05:46:22
Originally by: qaz zaq
Stating the facts and the truth about promises, etc is not QQ'ing. It is stating the truth and facts.

If CSM is actually advocates FOR players, and they stated that 'no one learns slower than currently', where is their response? As well as CCP's?

And standing up for something you believe is unfair as agreed upon, is not crying.

Also, trying to figure out why you actually care? Stop reading the forums if the content is not what you want to read.


If you care so much go to the CSM section part of the forums and post about it there. At the end of the day 72sp/h is such a small difference it isn't a huge game changing issue. Quite simple put, who cares lol. So you train ever so slightly slower than before, how about the fact you now have 5 mil extra skill points to instantly do cap ships 5, titan 5, command ships 5 etc, without actually having to boredom of training them? (if you put the skill points into what was your lowest attribute, you can make the reimbursed skills train the skill slightly faster technically than if you were training it normally)

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:49:00 - [127]
 

So, I get 5 million extra sp's? So, Instead of having 35,000,000 I will now have 40,000,000? Or will I have 30,000,000 + 5 million that I can respend as they were REFUNDED from being taken away?

Not same issue as a rate change. but, you can't seem to understand that.

Rommah
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:55:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Rommah on 13/12/2010 05:55:52
Hello...
I already posted a topic on the issue here: Skill Compensation

Basically, I remember that learning skills used to be 5x...
I trained them while they were at 5x value...
A while back they were made into 3x to make it easier on new players...
Since I spent higher LP, then they were converted into 3x LP value.
Someone told me Im a bit confused. Now I question my memory...

Q: If Im right, will I be compensated for the old SP value?

Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:55:00 - [129]
 

If they dont have max skill then they dont get it and will never get. More or less CCP is making us train a 10 Day Skill every year.

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:01:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: qaz zaq on 13/12/2010 06:01:47
I checked my screen captures from beginning 2006 and at that time, Advanced learning skills had a max of 768000 (3x). I can't help before that.

Rommah
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:04:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: qaz zaq
Edited by: qaz zaq on 13/12/2010 06:01:47
I checked my screen captures from beginning 2006 and at that time, Advanced learning skills had a max of 768000 (3x). I can't help before that.



Can you post the screenie in the linked topic please!
I been looking/asking for a screenie confirmation for a while now.
If Im wrong how the ell did I get this confused? : \

Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:06:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Rommah
Edited by: Rommah on 13/12/2010 05:55:52
Hello...
I already posted a topic on the issue here: Skill Compensation

Basically, I remember that learning skills used to be 5x...
I trained them while they were at 5x value...
A while back they were made into 3x to make it easier on new players...
Since I spent higher LP, then they were converted into 3x LP value.
Someone told me Im a bit confused. Now I question my memory...

Q: If Im right, will I be compensated for the old SP value?


Thats a Problem, also that went under the rug, but the older player just accept they get screwed. I dont mind that everyone is able to train as Fast as I can Now. Even after i spent Weeks Maxing out my Skills. I just dont want "me" to be slower at it!

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:14:00 - [133]
 

- <skillGroup groupName="Learning" groupID="267">
- <skill typeName="Analytical Mind" typeID="3377">
<groupID>267</groupID>
<flag>7</flag>
<rank>1</rank>
<skillpoints>256000</skillpoints>
<level>5</level>
<skilllevel1>250</skilllevel1>
<skilllevel2>1415</skilllevel2>
<skilllevel3>8000</skilllevel3>
<skilllevel4>45255</skilllevel4>
<skilllevel5>256000</skilllevel5>
</skill>
- <skill typeName="Clarity" typeID="12387">
<groupID>267</groupID>
<flag>7</flag>
<rank>3</rank>
<skillpoints>750</skillpoints>
<level>1</level>
<skilllevel1>750</skilllevel1>
<skilllevel2>4243</skilllevel2>
<skilllevel3>24000</skilllevel3>
<skilllevel4>135765</skilllevel4>
<skilllevel5>768000</skilllevel5>
</skill>

that was 2006

Guy Ferox
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:06:00 - [134]
 

Q: why wont you answer the question
A:

Q: will we get the nerual remap counter reset
A:

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:12:00 - [135]
 

Aww, comeon we only ask to admit the truth, "it's by design, HTFU" responce is as good as any. That line in devblog saying that it's not necacarily final changes gives false hope so people simply asking for confirmation that you actually going to do this - that's all (since no one had balls to actually confirm this before).

Originally by: Debir Achen
The RL scenario is that the Royal Amarr Investment Fund (the ONLY fund in town) says that rather than buying "investment shares" that up your pay rate to $5.72, everyone gets paid $5.00. But those who paid in the big bucks for a run at the higher rate get their big bucks refunded, but also get to keep any benefits from the $5.72 they used to earn.
You forgot the part where everyone else gets their smaller investments back too and increase from , say, $4.00 to $5.00 Razz

Point is: while everyone else gets SP and learning speed refund, those who trained skills to 5/5 only get speed refund up to 5/4, everything else is just SP refund. So, it's not SP that will last for 8 years, it's less because everyone else will get those too. So "refund of traning speed loss" is only around 3M SP (difference between 5/4 and 5/5 for those who care to calculate).

Originally by: qaz zaq
:-) Well, seems the CSM is not as 'powerful' or 'Important' as we thought.
Mostly PR to cover screwups, as usual. At least this CSM achieved better results in publicity which is not bad either. I don't think any game company would actually listen to playerbase, even if that's select few representatives (at least you won't see any big changes because of it)... not to mention average forum trolls Rolling Eyes

And I would have loved if they released half-broken incursion (with all "features") two weeks ago - just for lulz. Really if "we didn't manage do make stuff work in time" is not a reason to declare "we decided to listen to community and commit to excellence" I don't know what is Very Happy
IIRC, PI was delayed for exactly same reason... well, at least I had some fun thanks to P.I.POCALYPSE.

Originally by: white kight
At the end of the day 72sp/h is such a small difference it isn't a huge game changing issue.
Oh, so entire reason why people trained 5/5s in a first palce is not a "huge game changing issue"? Wonder how would people react had CCP decided to make 5/3 as new top learning speed Rolling Eyes

What is not a "huge game changing issue" is speed decrease with current 5/4 and +5s compared to new system - that is hardly noticable, but still fact. While a week of traning time a year is not something I wouldn't notice.

Plus it rewards lazy: it's like making all missions pay as L3 because it's so hard for a newbie to catch up with vets in moneymaking process and decreasing L4 and L5 payouts because CCP is unable to come up with new isk sink to compensate... which would be intresting to see, mostly because I don't run missions anyway so "who cares" Twisted Evil

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:18:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: I'thari
Aww, comeon we only ask to admit the truth, "it's by design, HTFU" responce is as good as any. That line in devblog saying that it's not necacarily final changes gives false hope so people simply asking for confirmation that you actually going to do this - that's all (since no one had balls to actually confirm this before).

Originally by: Debir Achen
The RL scenario is that the Royal Amarr Investment Fund (the ONLY fund in town) says that rather than buying "investment shares" that up your pay rate to $5.72, everyone gets paid $5.00. But those who paid in the big bucks for a run at the higher rate get their big bucks refunded, but also get to keep any benefits from the $5.72 they used to earn.
You forgot the part where everyone else gets their smaller investments back too and increase from , say, $4.00 to $5.00 Razz

Point is: while everyone else gets SP and learning speed refund, those who trained skills to 5/5 only get speed refund up to 5/4, everything else is just SP refund. So, it's not SP that will last for 8 years, it's less because everyone else will get those too. So "refund of traning speed loss" is only around 3M SP (difference between 5/4 and 5/5 for those who care to calculate).

Originally by: qaz zaq
:-) Well, seems the CSM is not as 'powerful' or 'Important' as we thought.
Mostly PR to cover screwups, as usual. At least this CSM achieved better results in publicity which is not bad either. I don't think any game company would actually listen to playerbase, even if that's select few representatives (at least you won't see any big changes because of it)... not to mention average forum trolls Rolling Eyes

And I would have loved if they released half-broken incursion (with all "features") two weeks ago - just for lulz. Really if "we didn't manage do make stuff work in time" is not a reason to declare "we decided to listen to community and commit to excellence" I don't know what is Very Happy
IIRC, PI was delayed for exactly same reason... well, at least I had some fun thanks to P.I.POCALYPSE.

Originally by: white kight
At the end of the day 72sp/h is such a small difference it isn't a huge game changing issue.
Oh, so entire reason why people trained 5/5s in a first palce is not a "huge game changing issue"? Wonder how would people react had CCP decided to make 5/3 as new top learning speed Rolling Eyes

What is not a "huge game changing issue" is speed decrease with current 5/4 and +5s compared to new system - that is hardly noticable, but still fact. While a week of traning time a year is not something I wouldn't notice.

Plus it rewards lazy: it's like making all missions pay as L3 because it's so hard for a newbie to catch up with vets in moneymaking process and decreasing L4 and L5 payouts because CCP is unable to come up with new isk sink to compensate... which would be intresting to see, mostly because I don't run missions anyway so "who cares" Twisted Evil


----


Thanks! :-)

Faltryka
Grey Lensmen
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:33:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Faltryka on 13/12/2010 07:35:17
I know what iam about to say is off topic but can you plz plz let us swap out subsystems on a T3 In space plz

Aele Deckard
Caldari
Fly Drunk
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:35:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Originally by: 548645156
will all the char in the same account get the sp for each char


It is done per character.
For example: You have one character on your account with 1 million learning skills, that character gets 1 million back. If another character on the same account has 5 million learning skills, then that character gets 5 million back.


Q: To expand on this; for those of us that have used spare slot on our account to train up one purpose alts (cynos, freighters, market, etc.) will we be able to transfer their learning SP to another character on the same account? (since the time spent training the learning was used at some point?). I ask since I doubt my one purpose alts need anymore training, and honsestly I wouldnt add any more skills to them anyways. Thanks.

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:37:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Aele Deckard
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Originally by: 548645156
will all the char in the same account get the sp for each char


It is done per character.
For example: You have one character on your account with 1 million learning skills, that character gets 1 million back. If another character on the same account has 5 million learning skills, then that character gets 5 million back.


Q: To expand on this; for those of us that have used spare slot on our account to train up one purpose alts (cynos, freighters, market, etc.) will we be able to transfer their learning SP to another character on the same account? (since the time spent training the learning was used at some point?). I ask since I doubt my one purpose alts need anymore training, and honsestly I wouldnt add any more skills to them anyways. Thanks.


They (CCP) already answered that. No. Character locked.

Aele Deckard
Caldari
Fly Drunk
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:43:00 - [140]
 

I didn't read the whole thread, but I had hoped that there would be a way to transfer between chars on same account. Dreams Squashed.

Thanks for the response.

DoubleD231
Minmatar
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:46:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Cornwalace
[b]Q: What is the meaning of life?
A:


42 ^^

Winston Brunai
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:58:00 - [142]
 

So Long and Thanks for all the fish!

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.12.13 08:16:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Aele Deckard
I didn't read the whole thread, but I had hoped that there would be a way to transfer between chars on same account. Dreams Squashed.

Thanks for the response.

Lol, and you didn't think that would be abused at all? I mean I would have bought as many low SP chars as possible with remappable SP. Then one by one move them to my main account, copy SP over and resell the chars with a few mill less SP. Someone with a good isk flow wouldn't have much trouble reaching 400m SP that way. Laughing

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.13 08:21:00 - [144]
 

Offtopic posts removed. Please try to keep the conversation in a constructive vein.


Eclorc
Posted - 2010.12.13 09:09:00 - [145]
 


Small suggestion:

Lots of folks are QQ about 72 sp/hour, this won't affect me, but I can see their point.

Given that everything is governed by little formulas and multipliers in the maths,
is there a multiplier in the formula that could be added to?

Like x 1.01 instead of x 1.00 ?

Perhaps if all speeds are added to in this way, maybe by 100 sp/hour for ALL training at base stat level, then the top-skilled won't lose the precious 72 sp/hour?


Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.13 09:23:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Originally by: Cornwalace
Q: What is the meaning of life?
A:



What is 6 times 7?

Ahem!

As any true devotee of the HHG2G knows, while the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything is 42, the question itself is "What do you get if you multiply six by nine" -- although the arrival of the Golgafrinchans may have put a telephone sanitizer into the works, so to speak.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.12.13 09:36:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Rommah
Edited by: Rommah on 13/12/2010 05:55:52
Hello...
I already posted a topic on the issue here: Skill Compensation

Basically, I remember that learning skills used to be 5x...
I trained them while they were at 5x value...
A while back they were made into 3x to make it easier on new players...
Since I spent higher LP, then they were converted into 3x LP value.
Someone told me Im a bit confused. Now I question my memory...

Q: If Im right, will I be compensated for the old SP value?

You are wrong, they always were Rank 3 on TQ.

CCP Stillman

Posted - 2010.12.13 09:41:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: CCP Stillman on 13/12/2010 09:46:23
Please stay on topic guys, we're doing this to offer people who might have questions about the actual deployment to get some answers. If you want to discuss 20vs19, free remap or no free remap, removal or no removal, please take that to the dev-blog thread. Everything you've been discussing so far has been done to death in the other thread.

Thanks Smile

EDIT: Here is the link.

Raven Seldon
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.13 09:41:00 - [149]
 

Q: Is there a time limit to redistribute your SP's?
A:

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.13 09:46:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: CCP Stillman
Please stay on topic guys, we're doing this to offer people who might have questions about the actual deployment to get some answers. If you want to discuss 20vs19, free remap or no free remap, removal or no removal, please take that to the dev-blog thread. Everything you've been discussing so far has been done to death in the other thread.

Thanks Smile


--------

Maybe provide a link to the Dev Blog discussion please?


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