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Odelya d'Hanguest
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:31:00 - [91]
 

Thank you, Mike deVoid, your numbers are much appreciated! And thanks for the Q&A!

And for those 72 sp/h whiners I hope that in 8.5 years theyíll get over it...

Schmacos tryne
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:34:00 - [92]
 

screw the 8,5 years. The reimbursment does not count since I already did those SP (At reduced training speed mind you!) so as of 14'th I will receive SP slower then I did before 14'th. Nothing to argue about and spare me the theories and bullsacks.

You whiners have won and get your learning skills for free, now I get to rage about it! I suggest you get your cups and whatnot and collect tears or whatever you forum pro's call it.

mjed mazga
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:35:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Trina Carmen
honestly this is a good change for 99% of eve player's and will improve the new player base why don't you get over yourself and look at the big picture.



I'm one of the people who will be affected by the loss of 72 SP/hour optimal skill training speed, and on multiple accounts.

I admit to being fairly upset that yes, I did train all 5.3 million of those skillpoints at SUB-OPTIMAL sp/hour training speeds, and yes, even though I now get to reallocate them elsewhere, the 8 year argument does not hold water because of the sub-optimal training speeds I endured to max out my attributes.

It hurts, and CCP should come out and say so. They don't have to fix it but it's the right thing to do to at least acknowledge it. Do the right thing, CCP. Please.

HOWEVER, here's how I have justified the changes to myself and how these changes will affect me long-term:

I have a lot of alts, and on even my mains, I have a couple of toons which have skills trained, and which I would like to train a couple more skills.

Now I will be able to train them at optimal SP/hour levels far exceeding that which was previously possible (since I would never have trained all lvl5 learning skills on them). This, in the end, is where the change benefits us lvl5 learning skill people. The time we will save in training on new accounts or new toons versus the past will make it worth it.

In the end, however, it is about 700k SP per year that you are losing, so roughly 2 weeks of skill training time, and for CCP, it comes down to money and now they are going to make an extra few bucks every year off everyone, even their most loyal, devoted, long-term customers like myself and others who have trained all learnings to V.

Please accept the change as a good one, but please CCP, acknowledge that you have hurt us. At least give us that.

Konoch
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:37:00 - [94]
 

To those *****ing about that 72 sp per hour....


YOUR GETTING OVER FIVE MILLION FREE ****ING SP!!

72*24=1728 per day....630720 per year....it will take nearly EIGHT MORE YEARS TO EQUAL WHAT YOU RECIEVE ON TUESDAY!!

Jesus ****in Christ get the hell over yourselves.

Debir Achen
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:39:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Debir Achen on 12/12/2010 23:51:43
Originally by: Trina Carmen
so in 8 years from now when the diff between the sp you get back and the sp you lose an hours catches up you should be to uber to care.....no?
Now, if only there were turn this into a scam. Give me your 5 mil bonus SP and I'll give you 72 SP an hour for the next 4 years. :)

Note 1: bonus SP can be applied to skills that you HAVEN'T currently remapped for. At which point, they're worth a lot more than 72 SP an hour.

Note 2: While I see the remap issue, I can't believe it's THAT big a deal. Basic learning skills feed off Mem/Int, but with a max Mem/Int setup only take a couple of weeks to max out, so either you were set Mem/Int for the long haul or you've only got a week or two to wait until your remap refreshes. Advanced learning skills feed directly off the attributes they boosted, so a remap that's good for training (say) Perception is also beneficial for training Perception-based skills. It seems to me that if you need a remap to fix your attribute plan then your attribute plan was already broken before this change?

PS: why the heck were people training off-main attributes to advanced 5 anyway? It takes (took?) 632235 SP to go from advanced 4 to advanced 5. It takes 400 DAYS (over a year) of training in skills with that attribute as primary to pay that training off, which is more than enough time to remap TWICE. Training to advanced 5 is (was) strictly only for people who already had that attribute as primary AND fully remapped to that attribute.

Even advanced 4 takes 70 days to pay off. Going to 4 implies that you either intend to do a lot of off-primary training, you're training all over the place, or you're a completist (like me).

Keti Loovic
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:39:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: DJWiggles
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist


Q: *Your question here*
A:


Can I have a Pony?

Love and kisses..

Wiggles


ROFL! Epic responce Wiggles! Cool

Schmacos tryne
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:39:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: mjed mazga
Originally by: Trina Carmen
honestly this is a good change for 99% of eve player's and will improve the new player base why don't you get over yourself and look at the big picture.



I'm one of the people who will be affected by the loss of 72 SP/hour optimal skill training speed, and on multiple accounts.

I admit to being fairly upset that yes, I did train all 5.3 million of those skillpoints at SUB-OPTIMAL sp/hour training speeds, and yes, even though I now get to reallocate them elsewhere, the 8 year argument does not hold water because of the sub-optimal training speeds I endured to max out my attributes.

It hurts, and CCP should come out and say so. They don't have to fix it but it's the right thing to do to at least acknowledge it. Do the right thing, CCP. Please.

HOWEVER, here's how I have justified the changes to myself and how these changes will affect me long-term:

I have a lot of alts, and on even my mains, I have a couple of toons which have skills trained, and which I would like to train a couple more skills.

Now I will be able to train them at optimal SP/hour levels far exceeding that which was previously possible (since I would never have trained all lvl5 learning skills on them). This, in the end, is where the change benefits us lvl5 learning skill people. The time we will save in training on new accounts or new toons versus the past will make it worth it.

In the end, however, it is about 700k SP per year that you are losing, so roughly 2 weeks of skill training time, and for CCP, it comes down to money and now they are going to make an extra few bucks every year off everyone, even their most loyal, devoted, long-term customers like myself and others who have trained all learnings to V.

Please accept the change as a good one, but please CCP, acknowledge that you have hurt us. At least give us that.


You are correct. This is a free pass to all botters and rtm'ers. (Not that I'm calling you one, but yo know the "others"). But I understand that this will give CCP more active accounts and after all that is all that means something when the quarterly repport is due. But still I get to ***** about it!

mjed mazga
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:41:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Konoch
To those *****ing about that 72 sp per hour....


YOUR GETTING OVER FIVE MILLION FREE ****ING SP!!

72*24=1728 per day....630720 per year....it will take nearly EIGHT MORE YEARS TO EQUAL WHAT YOU RECIEVE ON TUESDAY!!

Jesus ****in Christ get the hell over yourselves.


umad bro?

Konoch
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:45:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: mjed mazga
Originally by: Konoch
To those *****ing about that 72 sp per hour....


YOUR GETTING OVER FIVE MILLION FREE ****ING SP!!

72*24=1728 per day....630720 per year....it will take nearly EIGHT MORE YEARS TO EQUAL WHAT YOU RECIEVE ON TUESDAY!!

Jesus ****in Christ get the hell over yourselves.


umad bro?


Hahahahahaha

Not for the reasons you think. Not for the reasons you think bud. But yeah you could say i'm mad. They get a little piece of the rage. I tend to spread it around. This is one of the craziest complaints i've ever seen.

Billy Stevens
Caldari
Psykotic Meat
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:45:00 - [100]
 

They should just make it +13 rather than +12, then everybody is happy :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Schmacos tryne
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:45:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Konoch
To those *****ing about that 72 sp per hour....


YOUR GETTING OVER FIVE MILLION FREE ****ING SP!!

72*24=1728 per day....630720 per year....it will take nearly EIGHT MORE YEARS TO EQUAL WHAT YOU RECIEVE ON TUESDAY!!

Jesus ****in Christ get the hell over yourselves.


Dude... your XXX <--- Put extreemly funny remark here at your own leasure...

GTFO of MY BIATCHING thread. You hear me boy? Clean your fakking ears and GTFO of MY GOD DAM *****ING thread!!!

Schmacos tryne
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:48:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Billy Stevens
They should just make it +13 rather than +12, then everybody is happy :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


Or even better, Give 13 to all who had the bastards maxed out and +12 to the rest... Like that would ever happen in hippie hold hans land.

But seriously bro, your suggestion is atleast not a nerf for anyone...

Guinness Hooker
Posted - 2010.12.13 00:01:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Schmacos tryne
screw the 8,5 years. The reimbursment does not count since I already did those SP (At reduced training speed mind you!) so as of 14'th I will receive SP slower then I did before 14'th. Nothing to argue about and spare me the theories and bullsacks.

You whiners have won and get your learning skills for free, now I get to rage about it! I suggest you get your cups and whatnot and collect tears or whatever you forum pro's call it.


IT Makes a big deal when you train a high lvl skill. Days not hours But then again you prob not even close to training any of the Battleship to 5 or Carriers to 5.

Schmacos tryne
Posted - 2010.12.13 00:06:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Guinness Hooker
Originally by: Schmacos tryne
screw the 8,5 years. The reimbursment does not count since I already did those SP (At reduced training speed mind you!) so as of 14'th I will receive SP slower then I did before 14'th. Nothing to argue about and spare me the theories and bullsacks.

You whiners have won and get your learning skills for free, now I get to rage about it! I suggest you get your cups and whatnot and collect tears or whatever you forum pro's call it.


IT Makes a big deal when you train a high lvl skill. Days not hours But then again you prob not even close to training any of the Battleship to 5 or Carriers to 5.


Yeah You're right. Actually I only have the Learning skills trained at all. The rest I never cared about so please uncle, can you teach me how to distribute my skillpoints please??

Seriously Your'e making assumptions of which you know nothing about.

Guinness Hooker
Posted - 2010.12.13 00:06:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Konoch
To those *****ing about that 72 sp per hour....


YOUR GETTING OVER FIVE MILLION FREE ****ING SP!!

72*24=1728 per day....630720 per year....it will take nearly EIGHT MORE YEARS TO EQUAL WHAT YOU RECIEVE ON TUESDAY!!

Jesus ****in Christ get the hell over yourselves.


As I said "no clue" we trained the skills you didnt So our time was wasted not yours.

Artanis Creed
Posted - 2010.12.13 00:33:00 - [106]
 

O... since most people seem to be in an uproar and be confused slightly..

After the learning skills are removed, along with the bonuses they grant, CCP will be granting 12 points to each stat. Because of the particular nature of the Learning skill there will be one less point than there is now. This drops the total sp/hr gain by 72 points. Which is roughly 630k sp a year less.

Obviously younger/new players benefit from this the most (up till a certain point which im not gonna bother trying to figure out).

The sp spent for the learning skills being refunded makes training them not a total loss, since u can use the points to INSTANLY raise some skills. So yes your cap 5 is gonna take longer but u can always sink ur sp bonus into it to negate a hell of a lot of time spent training it in the first place.



Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:00:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Schmacos tryne
Ranting removed. Please try to post constructively. Spitfire



Fine, I will answer your question for you.

You will be refunded your skill points, so it will be as if you had never had to train those skills in the first place. So NOT ONLY did you have the benefit of having 5/5 learning skills for your entire life until this point, but the time cost associated with training those skills will be removed - so it will be as if you never wasted any time training those skills to level 5 in the first place!

ALSO, the skill point refund is FAR greater than the 72 sp/hour nerf that you may experience. The proof?

Let us presume that you get a refund of 5.4 million sps. Divide that by 72 sp/hour to get 75,000 hours. This is the number of hours it would take for the 72 sp/hour nerf to "undo" the skill point refund. Given that there are approximately 8765 hours in a year (counting leap years), this means that it will take 8.5 years for this "nerf" to actually negatively effect your training speed.

northroop Grumman
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:10:00 - [108]
 

Ok, Have a simple question, and haven't seen an actual answer from CCP:

On one of my toons, I have remapped about 6 months ago and maxed out Precep. When the learning thing is complete, will I be able to remap or will I have to wait the rest of the 6 months to do so?

And also, in regards to this "but please CCP, acknowledge that you have hurt us. At least give us that." from a previous post. No person in a higher position (political or otherwise) can ever admit publically that they created a 'hurt' to someone, otherwise once admitted, they would have to fix it. And a Negative change is a negative change, period, end of discussion. Nothing else matters.

So, what about a real answer to my remap question?


Guinness Hooker
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:29:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Guinness Hooker on 13/12/2010 01:31:51
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Schmacos tryne
Ranting removed. Please try to post constructively. Spitfire



Fine, I will answer your question for you.

You will be refunded your skill points, so it will be as if you had never had to train those skills in the first place. So NOT ONLY did you have the benefit of having 5/5 learning skills for your entire life until this point, but the time cost associated with training those skills will be removed - so it will be as if you never wasted any time training those skills to level 5 in the first place!

ALSO, the skill point refund is FAR greater than the 72 sp/hour nerf that you may experience. The proof?

Let us presume that you get a refund of 5.4 million sps. Divide that by 72 sp/hour to get 75,000 hours. This is the number of hours it would take for the 72 sp/hour nerf to "undo" the skill point refund. Given that there are approximately 8765 hours in a year (counting leap years), this means that it will take 8.5 years for this "nerf" to actually negatively effect your training speed.


Gal BS 5 is 1,685,961 Skill Points
with new remap takes 26days 25min and 48s
if I put in 630,o00 skill points in gal BS 5 --That I will Lose every year
I now can do it 16 days 7 hours 3 min and 34s

Old System BS 5 - 25 Days 8 hours and 12 min
Not that much but over a year almost 10 days gone
3 year account a not hard to see the problem

Easy Fix For CCP every year from now on Give 600k Skill Points away on Dec 14 now that will SHut every1 up
Almost to Simple

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:32:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Schmacos tryne
Ranting removed. Please try to post constructively. Spitfire



Fine, I will answer your question for you.

You will be refunded your skill points, so it will be as if you had never had to train those skills in the first place. So NOT ONLY did you have the benefit of having 5/5 learning skills for your entire life until this point, but the time cost associated with training those skills will be removed - so it will be as if you never wasted any time training those skills to level 5 in the first place!

ALSO, the skill point refund is FAR greater than the 72 sp/hour nerf that you may experience. The proof?

Let us presume that you get a refund of 5.4 million sps. Divide that by 72 sp/hour to get 75,000 hours. This is the number of hours it would take for the 72 sp/hour nerf to "undo" the skill point refund. Given that there are approximately 8765 hours in a year (counting leap years), this means that it will take 8.5 years for this "nerf" to actually negatively effect your training speed.

-------------

I am trying to apply this logic to a RL scenerio: Let me see...

So I have a Job that pays $5.72/hour
New change: Job now pays $5.00/hour

A REFUND of earned points would be same as,

I have a bank account (sp in learning) of 5376000 points. The bank erases this amount and refunds(gives me the cash) which I can use anyway I want... Which I should as I earned every point.

I fail to see how dropping a pay rate from $5.72/hour to $5.00/hour is good and better for me, the wife and kids. If anyone out there, thinks it is, let me know. I want to hire you in RL... :-)

Also, getting a refund has nothing to do, with a rate of pay, the two are seperate. Stop comparing the 2 to support a useless argument. The math doesn't not work.


Useful Alt
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:45:00 - [111]
 

EVE player was really more mature a few years ago, really Cool

stop whining on the forum and talk with your wallet, if you even dare

for me, i don't care about this change, in fact no, i like the fact that i will be able to get "free" level to skill that i didn't want to train since i didn't want to do a remap for them

but yes Iím also sad that i would not be able to do 2m sp every 30.5 days but it's minor for me

by the way, why people are asking for a free remap?

it's not like you will lose your current remap, the 14 points that is available for the remap wont move/change

northroop Grumman
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:54:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Useful Alt
EVE player was really more mature a few years ago, really Cool

stop whining on the forum and talk with your wallet, if you even dare

for me, i don't care about this change, in fact no, i like the fact that i will be able to get "free" level to skill that i didn't want to train since i didn't want to do a remap for them

but yes Iím also sad that i would not be able to do 2m sp every 30.5 days but it's minor for me

by the way, why people are asking for a free remap?

it's not like you will lose your current remap, the 14 points that is available for the remap wont move/change

------------

Not asking for a free remap, asking if there will be one.

If you were to move every availible point from other attrib's to one attrib, which maxes it out at current limit. Learning skills are not maxed out.

Which means I will get +12 points to a skill that is currently learned to a +4/+1 level. So, 7 more points will get added to a MAXED out attrib. Is there a new Max level of say 37? or will the ones above the new limit be lost? or will they be reallocated too? etc? Or will there be a remap to distribute the above max limit that is new?

This is not a 'beg' etc, it is a real question. I want to know, what mechanism will be put in place to help people who have aready maxed out one attirb by moving all attrib points to it, when the change happens.

So, real answers only please, not stupid replies assuming this is a QQ.

Septu Resheph
Posted - 2010.12.13 02:04:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Originally by: Cornwalace
Q: What is the meaning of life?
A:



What is 6 times 7?


Shocked

and don't forget your Towel!!



LMFAO thank you so much for saying that, it totally made my night. AWESOMEExclamation

Doctor Norris
Posted - 2010.12.13 03:05:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: I'thari
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Q: *Your question here*
A:
What about my "72 sp/hour"?


Is that good or bad? Confused

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.12.13 03:41:00 - [115]
 

Neither. They're hoping you'll quiet down, after you get to spend your free skillpoints. Seriously, whats the problem with this? I only ever trained one character to full 5/5; and I won't get any of that back. I sold him, so the guy who bought him; gets full refund of SP, to spend any way he likes. Means he payed 4 billion ISK; for 17 million dedicated PvP SP. Course, I got the 4 billion ISK; but, thats not much against a year of training.

Learning skills were tedious and unrewarding; be happy they are gone, and move on. I understand this is why some people are upset. It's not the 5/4 training that gets you; it's the 10+ day extra for each of the Adv. skills to V; when, really, you'd rather be doing anything else. But then, you've got to be obsessed to go that far anyway.

So glad its over!! Unfortunately, I'm a little disappointed; I only have 2.4 million SP to spend on each of my characters. Does that make sense?

Debir Achen
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.13 03:41:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Debir Achen on 13/12/2010 03:45:54
Edited by: Debir Achen on 13/12/2010 03:45:15
Originally by: qaz zaq
I am trying to apply this logic to a RL scenerio: Let me see...

So I have a Job that pays $5.72/hour
New change: Job now pays $5.00/hour

A REFUND of earned points would be same as,

I have a bank account (sp in learning) of 5376000 points. The bank erases this amount and refunds(gives me the cash) which I can use anyway I want... Which I should as I earned every point.

I fail to see how dropping a pay rate from $5.72/hour to $5.00/hour is good and better for me, the wife and kids. If anyone out there, thinks it is, let me know. I want to hire you in RL... :-)
The analogy is broken. The ONLY thing your SP did was make your pay rate $5.72 per hour. You didn't get to take a cent of it home; all you did was re-invest it in your pay.

Now, they're making the pay rate a flat $5.00 hour, and giving all that "dead" investment back to you in a lump sum.

The RL scenario is that the Royal Amarr Investment Fund (the ONLY fund in town) says that rather than buying "investment shares" that up your pay rate to $5.72, everyone gets paid $5.00. But those who paid in the big bucks for a run at the higher rate get their big bucks refunded, but also get to keep any benefits from the $5.72 they used to earn.

Proposition 1: regardless of your current Learning skills now, it will take several YEARS into the future before you'll be in a mathematically worse situation after this change than before. This is trivially easy to prove.

Proposition 2: if you knew this change was coming, and ignoring the cost of buying skill-books, you would still not lose out if you proceeded to train advanced learning in your best skills. These skills convert 1:1 to ANY skill you wish to train (even those where you'd normally learn at reduced rate). Mostly, you only lose out here if you've remapped away from memory and then spent the last 2 weeks training basic learning skills (in which case, there are a bunch of friendly people in Jita who'd love to offer you a bargain).

Ryhss
Caldari
The Excecutorans
Posted - 2010.12.13 03:55:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: ROCK JOKK
Since some of us have trained some of the Learning skills to lv2 or 3, but spent 4.5 mil isk, will we receive a partial reimbursement in skill points or isk?

Yes....

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:49:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: qaz zaq on 13/12/2010 04:55:55
Originally by: Debir Achen
Edited by: Debir Achen on 13/12/2010 03:45:54
Edited by: Debir Achen on 13/12/2010 03:45:15
Originally by: qaz zaq
I am trying to apply this logic to a RL scenerio: Let me see...

So I have a Job that pays $5.72/hour
New change: Job now pays $5.00/hour

A REFUND of earned points would be same as,

I have a bank account (sp in learning) of 5376000 points. The bank erases this amount and refunds(gives me the cash) which I can use anyway I want... Which I should as I earned every point.

I fail to see how dropping a pay rate from $5.72/hour to $5.00/hour is good and better for me, the wife and kids. If anyone out there, thinks it is, let me know. I want to hire you in RL... :-)
The analogy is broken. The ONLY thing your SP did was make your pay rate $5.72 per hour. You didn't get to take a cent of it home; all you did was re-invest it in your pay.

Now, they're making the pay rate a flat $5.00 hour, and giving all that "dead" investment back to you in a lump sum.

The RL scenario is that the Royal Amarr Investment Fund (the ONLY fund in town) says that rather than buying "investment shares" that up your pay rate to $5.72, everyone gets paid $5.00. But those who paid in the big bucks for a run at the higher rate get their big bucks refunded, but also get to keep any benefits from the $5.72 they used to earn.

Proposition 1: regardless of your current Learning skills now, it will take several YEARS into the future before you'll be in a mathematically worse situation after this change than before. This is trivially easy to prove.

Proposition 2: if you knew this change was coming, and ignoring the cost of buying skill-books, you would still not lose out if you proceeded to train advanced learning in your best skills. These skills convert 1:1 to ANY skill you wish to train (even those where you'd normally learn at reduced rate). Mostly, you only lose out here if you've remapped away from memory and then spent the last 2 weeks training basic learning skills (in which case, there are a bunch of friendly people in Jita who'd love to offer you a bargain).


-----

You are losing the rate with a 72 diff (being a negative rate) and supplementing this rate from your savings is not the same. But, all u see is that in 8 years etc., you need to understand that Today, now, right this second... There is a 72 sp/hour LOSS in rate. LOSS, we are talking speed, not balance of refunded sp's, not how long this, or how lnog that.. I am talking RATE of Learning speed ONLY. It will DECREASE 72 sp/hour, nothing makes up for that loss.

There is nothing else to say, no matter what arguments everyone uses, about this refund or that refund or 8 years till this or that. At the end of day, the speed of many toons sp learning has DECREASED! I mean, am I missing something? Speed is speed, refund of something taken away is refund of something taken away? Speed is different after patch.... it is slower by 72 sp/hour.

Merry christmas.! :-)

Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:58:00 - [119]
 

72 skillpoints a hour
around 630k a year
right at 10 days a year of training

I like the idea of 600k a year on the 14 would shut me up. Have you noticed that when it came up on test sever they shut us up about it. Now they have not said anything about it.

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:10:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: qaz zaq on 13/12/2010 05:13:19
Edited by: qaz zaq on 13/12/2010 05:10:14
Also an interesting detail during the CSM/CCP meeting notes (Raw log)

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modify_or_Remove_Learning_Skills_%28CSM%29

Which was agreed upon or stated as an Important concern:

----------
Important Caveats
Whichever method is chosen, the following guidelines must apply:

No player should train at a rate slower than their current rate.

---------

I believe that training at a rate of 72 sp/hr slower than now is "slower than their current rate????"


Hmm, interesting concept. Not going by their own rules and agreements with CSM.


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