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blankseplocked Seriously, what's with all the Latin?
 
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Graelyn
Amarr
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2010.12.14 06:02:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Graelyn on 14/12/2010 06:02:39

Originally by: Roga Dracor
I couldn't RP in this game for this very reason. Ignorant comments about a valid line of inquiry.


Wait, what?

So, you gave up? Pretty easily too, by the sound of it.

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2010.12.14 10:34:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Roga Dracor
Please refrain from personal attacks. Spitfire



Sometimes I regret sitting down and taking a break from the drama, now I will never know the fate that awaits me.

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2010.12.14 10:39:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Kahlide

The only thing we truely know about Amarrian ancestry is that there was some religious order called 'The Conformists' who were related to some religion called "Unified Catholic Church" that left Earth to colonize another planet in Sol, were eventually kicked off said planet, then came to Eve. Very little to go on. Nothing to say this religion follows eastern OR western traditions so we are left to make it up as we go.


Not to mention that, but they left seven millenia in the future, would there even be the ethnicities we know today. As for the word catholic, I argue that they have a connection to modern catholics because that is a very specific word for universal now only used by that group with legal problems that we all know and only some of us love (not me).

Mort Eveson
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2010.12.14 19:56:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium
As for the word catholic, I argue that they have a connection to modern catholics because that is a very specific word for universal now only used by that group with legal problems that we all know and only some of us love (not me).


Have to say I disagree, various other Christian groups use catholic (little c) when referring to the entire church. But I do agree that when whichever writer through it in there as they were first building the eve story probably was thinking Catholic (big C).

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.12.14 20:05:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 14/12/2010 20:05:10
Originally by: Mort Eveson
Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium
As for the word catholic, I argue that they have a connection to modern catholics because that is a very specific word for universal now only used by that group with legal problems that we all know and only some of us love (not me).


Have to say I disagree, various other Christian groups use catholic (little c) when referring to the entire church. But I do agree that when whichever writer through it in there as they were first building the eve story probably was thinking Catholic (big C).


Considering it is the future, there could have been numerous christian (or other) reformations/schisms/revivals before anyone even went through the EVE gate. So, I don't agree "Catholic" necessarily means descended from the Roman Catholics.

Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2010.12.14 20:43:00 - [36]
 

You have the relationship backwards: Roman Catholicism is a sort of offshoot of the more general catholicism, which includes other churches.

Speculating that CCP meant some other, undefined form of Catholic Church requires evidence to support such an assertion. The lack of that evidence leaves us with a far more logical conclusion that the Amarrian Empire is descended (albeit at an incredibly distance) from today's Catholic churches.

That said, of course it makes sense to presume that the belief system would have evolved over the intervening time period. Even over the last two thousand-ish years, a nearly insurmountable gulf has grown between the theology of the first-century Christians and that of the denominations of Christendom today. Think of the introduction of a clergy class, the doctrine of the Trinity, and the (admittedly disparate) views on the relationship between Christians and their governments, particularly with respect to military service.

Over the previous two thousand years, the changes were equally significant from Abraham's monotheistic worship to the first-century Christians, who considered themselves his spiritual offspring (if not literal, as the Jews did). And the existence of Islam certainly could factor into all this: who's to say that the UCC referenced in the EVE timeline doesn't somehow fold Islam, Christianity, and Judaism together?

Twenty millennia will likely mean even greater change than we've seen over the previous four thousand years, much less two thousand. So connecting the Empire to the religious traditions we still see today doesn't mean that anyone is claiming that Amarrians are Christians, or at least not in any recognizable sense.

Minmat Sebtin
Minmatar
House of Sebtin
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:01:00 - [37]
 

When people make Amarr RP corps I think it's simply a case that when we think of a dogmatic, ritualistic and monotheistic society with a feudal system the Catholic church is the first things that pop into our heads. Plus i'm sure the whole "Imperium of Mankind" vibe the Amarr give off reinforces that.

There are also some other tidbits that feel Medievel Europe in theme such as that pic of the monks in the eve intro vid and some of the Amarr chronicles and ingame stories seem Old Testament and Conquistidor inspired. I don't know what the actual beliefs of the Amarrians are or even if they have been formulated beyond "Monotheistic" but I think that CCP were heavily influenced by an old school Catholic church.

RiotRick
Kamehameha I's Revenge
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.12.15 12:04:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: RiotRick on 15/12/2010 12:03:56
Lorizzle ma nizzle dolor sit amizzle, you son of a bizzle adipiscing you son of a bizzle. Nullam dang stuff, yippiyo volutpizzle, suscipizzle quizzle, gravida vel, gangster. Pellentesque i saw beyonces tizzles and my pizzle went crizzle tortizzle. Sed erizzle. izzle dapibus phat tempus yippiyo. Maurizzle break it down nibh izzle turpizzle. Fo shizzle in go to hizzle. Da bomb fizzle rhoncizzle i saw beyonces tizzles and my pizzle went crizzle. In hizzle habitasse platea dictumst. Donec dapibizzle. Mah nizzle tellizzle urna, pretium yo, mattizzle izzle, pot vitae, nunc. Shut the shizzle up suscipizzle. Dope semper break it down sizzle own yo'.

Julius Avitus
Amarr
Ordo Comitum Augusti
Posted - 2010.12.15 12:42:00 - [39]
 

For the use of Latin, it's all about the "Imperial" language. Certainly, there's a whole lot of other empires, too, but in the west, Rome would be "the" Empire. About NPCs with Latin names: I think there's a few in the fiction. The first one to come to mind would be Lord Victor in the Empyrean Age. The Amarr FW ranks do also have some connections to the Roman Empire.

Personally, the character name outdates playing EVE for me. Later on I've made the distinction of using Latin only for "secular-minded" Amarr.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2010.12.17 20:28:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 17/12/2010 20:28:47
Given a sample of a sentence in Amarrian here: "a manu dei e tet rimon" and you could easily say that spoken Amarrian is almost an exact duplicate of Latin.

In truth though, Amarr borrows heavily from all mediterranean civilizations.

I'd argue that in the most relevant ways (political and social structure), it borrows from the Greek Byzantine civilization, the Eastern Roman Empire that survived the fall of Rome and continued for another 1000 years. Of course, it'd be ignorant to not mention the heavy influence of Western Roman, Persian and Egyptian language/iconography on the portrayal of Amarr.

Julius Avitus
Amarr
Ordo Comitum Augusti
Posted - 2010.12.18 23:01:00 - [41]
 

The oldies might be able to tell better, but it's worth to remember that the Prime Fiction (PF) hasn't been written by any single person. Instead, it has developed. Some PF has its origins in fiction written by CCP-supervised player volunteers (ingame news written by Mercury (M) and old AURORA events). Then there's stuff that's been made up by players, such as background for player corps etc. and picked up by CCP (such as a Royal Heir using the phrase "Amarr Victor" and some Chronicles, such as "the Cold Wind" and "the Hands of a Killer"). And finally, fiction written by authors working at CCP. (Most Chronicles, mission texts, etc.)

And oh, the old Bestower model had Greek letters written on it. Removed with the graphics update.

Matthias Howe
Posted - 2010.12.20 20:06:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Roga Dracor
Edited by: Roga Dracor on 13/12/2010 02:02:08
Edited by: Roga Dracor on 13/12/2010 01:58:14
Zoroastrianism is the basis of the Amarr faith. Amarr-Emir, Persia before the Roman Empire even existed. Before the Judaic faith even. The times of Sumeria and Babylon. The Romans were still warring amongst themselves. If Latin survived, it would be reflected by someone like the Gallente, not the Amarr.

One of the immersion killers I find in Eve. The backstory hasn't been fleshed out, and even the Role Players were never discouraged from the "perspective problem". Christianity didn't survive to Eve. I have never heard an Amarr mention Jesus, rightly so. Because the Amarr faith has NOTHING to do with Christianity. Or Judaism.

Here is your Unified Catholic Church.

Ahura Mahzda, or some future permutation, is the name of the Amarr god. I have never been a fan of the whole "Well, civilization collapsed, so, noone knows the roots of their faith anymore". Faith is the last thing a people lose, especially in bad circumstances. So the Amarr should know the basis of their faith, even if they don't use the proper names anymore.

As I have tried to show before in this whole mystery subject matter. Everything is expressed through the east, not the west. We Westerners need to get over ourselves..Wink

Look at the names, that should be a clue.. Ardishapur? Sound Latin? Sounds Indian or Pakistani to me..


Do I look Persian to you, Caldari unbeliever?

Matthias Howe
Posted - 2010.12.20 20:08:00 - [43]
 

to be honest, I always thought the Amarr to be more Byzantine than Roman.

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2010.12.21 11:32:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Matthias Howe
to be honest, I always thought the Amarr to be more Byzantine than Roman.


The Byzantines considered themselves to be Roman. Greek was their common language, but their soldiers wore Roman armor, they had roman institutions and customs, and the Hippodrome was a compromise between the games and the Christian ban on enslaving fellow Christians. I would concede though that the Amarr seem to be halfway between the universal and eastern orthodoxy.

Dilaro thagriin
Posted - 2010.12.27 23:16:00 - [45]
 

ok... The Amarr 'empire' is not based on the teachings of zoroaster (sp??) yes, it has a monotheistic faith, and yes, on earth Zoroastrianism was one of, if not the, first monotheistic faith. BUT.....

the amarrian empire has 'Legions' of paladins.
their religious text, and a few other things i have seen, are hinted at being written in latin.
they believe in the 'emperor' being the hand of god in the 'world'
there are specifically trained paladins with remarkably roman-esque names 'praetorians' etc

there are 2 ways to look at this, even though IRL there were no more praetorians by the time he took control and changed the way the empire worked, EITHER the amarrians are based loosely on the roman empire in the post-Constantine era...

OR it is loosely based on the holy roman empire, which had legions of troops, willing to die for the divinely ordained kaiser (emperor), spoke latin, used roman-esque sounding names, etc etc...

basically, due to the overly strong religious element within Amarrian culture, and the constant references to 'Him' and 'His Will' it is easy to make the reference to Catholisism, or any of the precursor groups to the group we now call Catholics.

Since it is the easiest narrative link to make, most people take that option

Yes, CCP could have made up a whole language, and an entire religion for the Amarrians, but why? totally new things are hard to do, and don't cause such a deep and widely spread response...

Another thought... The Amarrians are more based upon a Zeitgeist... not a specific people.

They are the spirit of the crusader era. where most of europe and a fair portion of western asia, were sending thousands upon thousands of men out to fight and 'reclaim' territory that had never really belonged to them.

just my little bit of theory by the way... nothing concrete here.

Horatius Caul
Amarr
Kitzless
Posted - 2010.12.28 13:19:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Dilaro thagriin
the amarrian empire has 'Legions' of paladins.
I'd personally argue that both "legion" and "paladin" are words that have transcended their Roman etymological roots. I'd also say that it's a translation from Amarish to English. If the words were intended to be latin they'd be legiones and palatini, but CCP is using the English derivative words which indicates they are merely representative - invoking the actual English meanings of those words rather at the same time as they reference their history.

Originally by: Dilaro thagriin
their religious text, and a few other things i have seen, are hinted at being written in latin.
Where? I'm curious now. I know that some ISD live events featured latin, but I've never seen anything of the sort from CCP's mouth.

Originally by: Dilaro thagriin
they believe in the 'emperor' being the hand of god in the 'world'
First of all, the actual role of the Emperor in Amarrian religion and society is a point of debate. Secondly, that's pretty much how all cultures ever justified the authority of their leaders. For example, here's a snippet of info about Cyrus the Great, King of Aryavrata, Persia, Medina, Babylon, Sumer, Akkad and the Four Corners of the World:

Glorified by Ezra, and by Isaiah, Cyrus is the one to whom "Yahweh, the God of heaven" has given "all the Kingdoms of the earth", referring to contents of the Jewish Tanakh.

Not seeing how this is a reference to Catholicism or a Roman heritage.

Originally by: Dilaro thagriin
there are specifically trained paladins with remarkably roman-esque names 'praetorians' etc
Again, I'd love to see some PF references here. I'm well aware of the amarr-aligned player groups that use those terms, but I can't recall seeing it in CCP vernacular.

Originally by: Dilaro thagriin
there are 2 ways to look at this, even though IRL there were no more praetorians by the time he took control and changed the way the empire worked, EITHER the amarrians are based loosely on the roman empire in the post-Constantine era...

OR it is loosely based on the holy roman empire, which had legions of troops, willing to die for the divinely ordained kaiser (emperor), spoke latin, used roman-esque sounding names, etc etc...
Only two ways? That's awfully restrictive.

Again, unless we're seeing it used in its latin form, I have to assume it's English. You see, praetorian has a specific meaning in English. Sure, it's etymologically related to the things you cite, but that doesn't have to mean it's a straight reference.

Originally by: Dilaro thagriin
basically, due to the overly strong religious element within Amarrian culture, and the constant references to 'Him' and 'His Will' it is easy to make the reference to Catholisism, or any of the precursor groups to the group we now call Catholics.
Islam also calls God "He" and "Him" and references "His Will." Pretty sure the Zoroastrians did too. Not seeing how this is an argument for Catholicism, beyond the fact that Catholicism is one of the most famous monotheistic faiths in the western world.

Originally by: Dilaro thagriin
Since it is the easiest narrative link to make, most people take that option
Very true, just as you seem to be doing, ignoring all other indicators.

Originally by: Dilaro thagriin
Another thought... The Amarrians are more based upon a Zeitgeist... not a specific people.
Pretty definitely this. CCP is invoking the hind-brain feeling we get when someone references religious things in manners akin to Catholic rites, but pretty much everything outside this points to a completely different origin for nearly all Amarrian culture - something more middle-eastern (as indicated by the blatant references to ancient Persia in many places). The Zoroastrian angle is an effort to merge these two main influences, I believe - powerful monotheism + fundamental middle-eastern feel.

Botrias Pirabus
Posted - 2010.12.29 15:21:00 - [47]
 

Are we forgetting Akhenaten? Ancient Egypt had it's own monotheism kick, complete with a God-Emperor (Pharoah Akhenaten).

I see parts of every monotheistic faith present in the Amarr, and my personal theory is that they decided, sometime way, way back, that all the Monotheistic religions were right, and the fighting had been over something as petty as which language to use...and then they unified the faiths, decreeing that all the monotheistic gods were in fact, the same deity.

Thus giving us a multicultural, slave-taking, crusading, scientific researching people with a God-Emperor. They may even use and preserve multiple old Earth languages for religious reasons. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the empire included multiple languages, each with their own 'niche'. Like Latin for the military, Egyptian for religious ceremonies, etc.

There's a world of possibilities, and we simply don't have enough information to say one way or the other. All we can do is theorize.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.12.29 16:30:00 - [48]
 

Tua mater meretrix est.

Ts'ao Ts'ao
Capsuleer Profit Sharing Enterprise
Posted - 2011.01.06 23:23:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Sadayiel


Quote:
Though Latin is used to represent High Gothic in the official fiction published by Black Library it has been stated by high ranked Games Workshop officials that this is not the actual language, and is instead used to simulate what High Gothic would sound like to a Low Gothic speaker.


i think this explanation would fit pretty well the develop of the basic amarr language as latin as it is being used now, atleast until some CCP Dev bother to do a makeshift language just for fun (also i hope the same for the caldari_Very Happy


this tbfh

Axel Kurki
Posted - 2011.01.07 11:07:00 - [50]
 

As a note, there are some player projects about constructing languages to the Caldari (Napanii or "Old Caldari"), the Intaki language, and Amarrad ("Old Amarrish"). Some of this has been used by CCP.


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