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Torothanax
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:03:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/12/2010 03:46:15
Originally by: Torothanax
For the record, I'm a tough guy. The fact that I'm nonsensically *****ing about the forums about an intended game mechanic that has existed for years is negated by the fact that I engage in PVP sometimes. To prove my toughness, listen to me brag about exploding someone else's internet spaceship"

Who put the bee in your bonnet? Do you ninja and feel like a puss for it? Where exactly did I call you out? I thought UK knew how to pvp, guess I was wrong.

So why exactly do you play eve? I play to make things explode. It has nothing to do with toughness or proving anything. I play for fun, and I've been playing alot longer then the new no flagging for theft mechanic. Ninja are not fun, and neither are missions. Ninja mean I have to spend more time running missions.

You can't hurt a ninja even though they have a direct inpact on your game play. How does that make sense in a pvp game?

Merth Righter
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:07:00 - [32]
 

Everytime Someone whines about ninja salvagers another one is born.

Seriously, get over it.

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:14:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Khalia Nestune
Confirming that I want you to shoot me so I can return and pwn your pimped L4 boat.
One, I don't have a pimped mission boat. It's all normal t2 fit, and there aren't even rigs on it. When I'm done in an area I repack it and sell most everything on the market.

Two, if I shoot you, I'm coming back in a pvp ship, same as you.

Covert Kitty
Amarr
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:02:00 - [34]
 

So another player can salvage your wrecks risk free while you run missions risk free?...

OHNOES!!

Hecatonis
Amarr
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:16:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
Originally by: Khalia Nestune
Confirming that I want you to shoot me so I can return and pwn your pimped L4 boat.
One, I don't have a pimped mission boat. It's all normal t2 fit, and there aren't even rigs on it. When I'm done in an area I repack it and sell most everything on the market.

Two, if I shoot you, I'm coming back in a pvp ship, same as you.


so then where is the problem? or did you try this can get killed anyways?

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2010.12.13 11:27:00 - [36]
 

To a ninja salvager, mission hubs are what is known as a "target rich environment".

When they scan, they know they're going to locate at least one mission site, and so they don't waste time on unproductive scanning. Move away from the mission hubs, and ninjas disappear.

You'll get the odd baiter/explorer moonlighting as a ninja, but the professional ninjas won't waste the time on a system with only a couple of mission runners.

mission hub
pro: good agent/money
con: tempting target for ninjas who will reduce that money

looks like there's a balance.

Wave missions are a ninja's bane. that's the risk that they are taking. some missions also have booby-trapped asteroids (blockade?- been a while) that do AOE damage after each mining cycle. Get known for baiting ninjas with things like this and they'll avoid you (choosing an easier target means less wasted time)

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.12.13 11:33:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Merth Righter
Everytime Someone whines about ninja salvagers another one is born.
This is actually true. I was inspired to try ninja salvaging due to whine threads about it.

Amberlamps
Posted - 2010.12.13 13:26:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Maybe you should man up, get out of your mission hub, periodically place locator agents on him and go gank him (suicide or not) when he is in a ship he values.



Ha I think you just proved his point though, it still hurts your wallet to get him back, you have to go so far out of your way and you don't make ISK of them. Whereas they can continuously make it off you.

I'm not too bothered by Ninja Salvaging I will just accept missions from another agent however I am disappointed that the barriers to entry is about 1 day.

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.12.14 07:51:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Glyken Touchon
To a ninja salvager, mission hubs are what is known as a "target rich environment".

When they scan, they know they're going to locate at least one mission site, and so they don't waste time on unproductive scanning. Move away from the mission hubs, and ninjas disappear.

You'll get the odd baiter/explorer moonlighting as a ninja, but the professional ninjas won't waste the time on a system with only a couple of mission runners.

mission hub
pro: good agent/money
con: tempting target for ninjas who will reduce that money

looks like there's a balance.

Wave missions are a ninja's bane. that's the risk that they are taking. some missions also have booby-trapped asteroids (blockade?- been a while) that do AOE damage after each mining cycle. Get known for baiting ninjas with things like this and they'll avoid you (choosing an easier target means less wasted time)
If you'd bothered to read the thread, you'd know I don't run missions in a hub.

Are you seriously sugesting I skip missions until I get the blockade, and then mine rocks hopeing to blow up a ninja salvager? That's the best you've got?

Confirming that ninja salvaging doesn't have enough draw backs.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.12.14 09:31:00 - [40]
 

how is ninja salvaging going these days?
Anything turned in favor of mission runners after introduction of the noctis?

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.12.14 19:05:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
how is ninja salvaging going these days?
Anything turned in favor of mission runners after introduction of the noctis?

Ninja salvaging is alive and well I assure you. The noctis is a nice ship. It doesn't help ninja, but then again it doesn't really help the mission runner either if someone is scooping up the salvage behind them while they are doing the mission.

Personally I'd be fine with anyone being able to tractor any wreck IF doing so flagged to the owner and the person that caused the wreck.

That's not the point though. The point is ninja salvaging doesn't have enough drawbacks.

Shiho Weitong
Caldari
Koa Mai Hoku
Posted - 2010.12.14 19:57:00 - [42]
 

1: Ninja salvaging is risk free, if you know what you're doing. / So is running missions, if you know what you're doing.

2: Salvaging should flag. / Make it so, and I'll be back in suddenly ninjas in a heartbeat.

3: Salvagers are bottomfeeders living off other people. / Mission runners are people???

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.12.16 06:24:00 - [43]
 

Did all the trolls finally move on from ninja salvaging? Used to be you even mentioned "ninja" and there were 13 pages overnight.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.16 06:35:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Merth Righter
Everytime Someone whines about ninja salvagers another one is born.
This is actually true. I was inspired to try ninja salvaging due to whine threads about it.
Your salvaging signature is inaccurate; If we complain long enough and legitimately enough, we might actually make a change.

Also, I'd hardly call 50% of a rat's loot value "junk".

Now that learning skills are gone, I've got another crusade. Smile

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2010.12.16 10:54:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
If you'd bothered to read the thread, you'd know I don't run missions in a hub.



You must be somewhere fairly prominent if ninjas are such a bane to your mission-running. As I said, outside the main mission areas, I've rarely encountered one. Inside, however, they're 10 to the dozen.

By posting this thread you have ensured that any ninjas that see you in local will stay around, because, as people have already stated, a fair number do it for the tears.

As for the things you can do to deter them, I don't mean reject missions until you get one that's good against salvagers. I mean when you do get one, bait them a bit. If you mission in one area, they'll come to recognise that there are easier targets and stop pestering you.

Space Pinata
Amarr
Discount Napkin Industries
Posted - 2010.12.16 11:22:00 - [46]
 

I like how people think 'risk' is the smart way to make money in any situation. If you're just as likely to lose as to gain, you're not in a good line of business. Not to say dangerous isk isn't better despite the risk, but...

I guarantee none of the "risk vs reward" types are taking risks when they make their isk, either. Oh wow, you ratted in nullsec with an intel channel and warped to a POS or cloaked when someone came into local? So risky. So did I for a year and a half. Never died once. Oh god, the risk.

You did w-space and warped off if you saw probes? I am impress.

You traded and did research as opposed to blindly buying ****? Didn't haul through lowsec? Why not take a gamble?

tl;dr:

Umad that people can play without you killing them. Sadly, without that protection, most people couldn't 'play' at all. Not because they're incompetent, but because if you're in a PVE ship, and get attacked by a PVP ship, you die. That's how it goes.

Now, gangs of PVPers, and solo missioners? Welp.

Of course, you could organize a big group, and get into an arms race back and forth, until you own entire regions like nullsec...

..But then only the corporate drones get anything done. You're either a faceless member of the blob who takes orders and pays someone a % of their income for the right to lose ships for moon goo (which goes into the same persons pocket as is collecting the taxes)...

..Or you're grieved out of the game. That's how a lawless game would go. Pirates and such wouldn't sustain their wealth on pvp alone, and only the big corp members would get any PVE done.

Back to ninjas:

Ninjas suck, but flagging them for salvaging you won't help. One, they can get away, they are in frigates. Two, they WANT you to shoot them 90% of the time. They want kills more than they want salvage.

Making it concordable would just be silly.

In EVE, you can't remove a playstyle just because it's full of trolls. 90% of EVE is trolling. You're either trolling or making isk to go troll someone.

It's kind of a sad truth, really. EVE is a game of victims and bullies (and most people, sans bleeding heart bears, end up in both roles at one point or the other.) You CANT pvp without ****ing someone else off.

You're either going to be a **** and shoot random people for no good reason, or you're going to be a bleeding heart bear who doesn't shoot or ninja or steal and only fights enemies... who thus has a 'holier than thou' attitude that makes them easy to troll, and a complete lack of PVP experience that makes them easy to kill. So, again: victims and bullies.

Trying to be nice and noble in EVE, unfortunately, is a futile attempt. So, long story short...

I hate ninjas. But there's no way to make them less annoying without removing their playstyle. As much as everyone (except other ninjas) hates ninjas, it's not fair to remove the way they choose to play.

Zeb DaMadMiner
Interstellar Research Excavation Armada
Tri Sol Syndicate
Posted - 2010.12.16 12:26:00 - [47]
 

Simply flag a wreck as if it's a container with an agression timer if popped... It will stop the begging and the senseless moaning, and it will give true ninja salvagers a meaning to the word 'ninja' rather than fat little plumbs :D. (sumo salvagers!)

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.12.16 12:43:00 - [48]
 

Quote:
Ninja salvaging is alive and well I assure you. The noctis is a nice ship. It doesn't help ninja, but then again it doesn't really help the mission runner either if someone is scooping up the salvage behind them while they are doing the mission.


Those ones are the best you can expect, just blow you trigger when he's close enough to the spawn point. Laughing

Usualy you'll get a bonus wreck Cool

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.12.16 13:30:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
Did all the trolls finally move on from ninja salvaging? Used to be you even mentioned "ninja" and there were 13 pages overnight.


Translation: I am an attention *****. Why am I not getting the usual amount of attention?

The professional trolls can usually spot one of their own, and adjust their posting schedule to compensate.

That or you just smell funny.

TheGoodTrader
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:21:00 - [50]
 

Add a reason not to post stupid threads.
Very Happy

Pinky Starstrider
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:33:00 - [51]
 

Well Ill make you a deal, hows about you contract your salvage to me at the end of each salvaging run, and I won't come take it? Seems pretty fair.

Slimy Worm
The Skunkworks
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:57:00 - [52]
 

Move easy ISK faucets like level 4 missions out of highsec, or at least cap NPC bounty payouts at 250k in highsec.

"Problem" solved. No more risk-free ninjaing.

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.12.21 08:24:00 - [53]
 

Once more, with feeling.

Kara Sharalien
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2010.12.21 09:12:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Amberlamps
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Maybe you should man up, get out of your mission hub, periodically place locator agents on him and go gank him (suicide or not) when he is in a ship he values.



Ha I think you just proved his point though, it still hurts your wallet to get him back, you have to go so far out of your way and you don't make ISK of them. Whereas they can continuously make it off you.


Oh I'm sorry. Here let me set up an egg conveyor-belt so you can smash them all day long, I'm sure that will give you just as much satisfaction as getting that job you have been chasing for months.

Seriously, if you can just pop them and move on what the **** is the point? Taking the time to hunt them down is the whole point of the endeavor, and the score is not, repeat not, determined by the amount of money left in your wallet at the end. It is determined by the amount of tears you extract. If you don't see that as fun, and can't take the ninja salvaging, and don't want to move elsewhere, I would suggest going and taking some LSD because you are in serious need of a personality boost.

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.12.21 17:26:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Seriously, if you can just pop them and move on what the **** is the point? Taking the time to hunt them down is the whole point of the endeavor, and the score is not, repeat not, determined by the amount of money left in your wallet at the end. It is determined by the amount of tears you extract. If you don't see that as fun, and can't take the ninja salvaging, and don't want to move elsewhere, I would suggest going and taking some LSD because you are in serious need of a personality boost.


Ever heard of trash men? Yeah didn't think so noob. Years ago, long before salvage and wrecks, and even before stealing from a jet can (which was what all destroyed ships dropped before wrecks) there were people that would collect anything and everything floating in space. "It's just garbage no one wants" was the mantra. And they were right. NPC bounties and mission rewards were quite a bit higher back then, so few people actually collected thier "loot". No one really cared because it had little to no value.

And then they added the theft flag, which made sense, since not everything in a jet/loot can was "trash". Granted jet can mining is kind of abusing what was essentially a transfer container, but there are some legit uses for them that people were yoinking. "It'll be the end of the trash man" everyone screamed. Only it wasn't. People still scanned out jet cans and still took whatever they could get thier hands on. Others had a field day stealing from miners, well until the miners wised up.

Nope, in the end the only reason the "trash man" went extinct was because CCP took out the ability to scan for loot/jet cans. The reason for this was because it was very easy to scan them down in low sec to locate anyone running a mission. The trash man didn't die out because you could shoot at him. Seeing as ninja salvaging is so much more profitable, I'd wager the ninja would do just fine.

Still, I'm not asking specifically for salvaging someone else's wreck to flag. I just want more draw backs to being a ninja salvager.

Chuc Morris
Posted - 2010.12.21 17:45:00 - [56]
 

Ninja's are fine. Give them love and some more LSD Laughing

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.12.21 18:07:00 - [57]
 

Some love and STDs you say???

Kara Sharalien
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2010.12.22 00:21:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
Incoherant rambling


You didn't address my point. Stop throwing out cookie cutter lines that the devs themselves have said are incorrect, and make an original argument.

DrDooma
Posted - 2010.12.22 02:11:00 - [59]
 

Toro, i have you heard of 0.0? no ninja salvage crews. Just ninjas.

Saffin
Posted - 2010.12.22 10:59:00 - [60]
 

Im not a ninja slavager (much easier and more profitable ways to make isk) but this whole "ninja salvaging" thing is BS. You dont OWN salvage, if you did it would be loot. You only own salvage when it is in your cargohold.

Salvage is salvage, it is owned by the first person to salvage it.

It was done on purpose to make a low skill point mini profession and to not inflate the already ample rewards of L4 mission running.

Saf


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