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blankseplocked Merry Christmas vs Happy Holidays
 
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Jate Gunma
Posted - 2010.12.09 19:00:00 - [1]
 

So, let's hear your opinions.

1. Why the change? Is it rational?
2. Do you believe sales are greatly affected by the switch?
3. What do you think would justify a shift (or the current situation)?

No rage posts against ANY religion/belief system. (yeah, those subjects play a part, and can/should be discussed - not trashed.)

As in, "Many think Jesus Christ was a historical figure and since he was the reason the day was founded in the first place, maybe we should keep 'Christmas' for the sake of being historically accurate and not just to appease those who dislike his existence or the beliefs about him,"

or from the opposite view, "Maybe there was once a guy named Jesus Christ. Some people don't think he was god and as his name offends them the title 'Christmas' should be removed for the sake of community happiness," or something along those lines.

NOT "U @#$% perverse atheist pagans r all going 2 hell for not belivin in J!" and "I hate all u Christian !@#$%'s u r trying 2 shove ur religion dwn pple's throats!"

...I think that's all. May a concise, civilized discussion/debate begin.Shocked

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.12.09 19:31:00 - [2]
 

Merry Christmas, and/or Happy Birthday Santa are both acceptable!

the Chris in Christmas stands for Chris, as in Kris Kringle, not sure why it isn't Khristmas, but hey that's just a nitpick.

Malaclypse Muscaria
Posted - 2010.12.09 19:45:00 - [3]
 

First of all, you are either a bona fide troll, or simply very new and naive about forums if you think this thread won't end up into a poo flinging fest and locked.


But nonetheless:

1. Why the change? Is it rational?

Yes, ofc it's rational. Western societies are increasingly moving away from their beliefs in Christian fairy tales (well, in the US you still have plenty of noisy fundamentalists running around), and Xmas - a celebration deeply embedded into Western culture - has transcended for many people its original meaning. It's no longer about Christ, it's becoming simply a holiday period during deep winter when people take time off, relax, meet with family & friends, eat good food and drink, give each other gifts, etc... regardless of the superstitious origin of the holiday.

Just because society is giving up on Christ, it does not mean it also wants to give up time away from work, parties, gatherings, hedonism and gifts.


2. Do you believe sales are greatly affected by the switch?

No. People like buying stuff. All sorts of stuff, all the time, regardless of the baby Jesus. And Xmas is the perfect excuse to indulge.


3. What do you think would justify a shift (or the current situation)?

Answered above.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.09 19:45:00 - [4]
 

I say Merry Christmas.
If someone gets offended all the merrier.

Bodrul
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.09 19:46:00 - [5]
 

considering christmas is a pagan holiday

"The answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast. "

http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm

its just another comercialized holiday to make money



Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.09 19:52:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Riedle on 09/12/2010 19:55:04
Edited by: Riedle on 09/12/2010 19:52:37
Originally by: Bodrul
considering christmas is a pagan holiday

"The answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast. "

http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm

its just another comercialized holiday to make money



The fact that pagans and pretty much all early religions or creeds celebrated the winter solstice on or around Dec 21 doesn't mean technically that the origins of Christmas are pagan.

More accurately early Christians moved the celebration of Jesus' birth to coincide and upsurp the already ongoing pagan celebration at that time of year.

So while there were celebrations on Dec 21 that Christianity moved to Dec 25th it doesn't mean that Christmas has it's roots in paganism. The majority of the symbology and rituals associated with what we call Christmas today are quite clearly from a Christian historical perspective.

You can all thank the three wise men (or was it kings?) for bringing francasense and mehr (however they are spelled) to little precious baby Jesus for your inflated Visa bill come January. lol

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.12.09 20:22:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 09/12/2010 20:31:40
Originally by: Riedle
The majority of the symbology and rituals associated with what we call Christmas today are quite clearly from a Christian historical perspective.


Everything in the Roman Catholic tales about Jesus are essentially stories about Horus: the sun of man, the fisher of men, etc. You can even see a giant obilisk in the middle of vatican square if you have any doubt it's influenced by Egyptian tradition. The 12 diciples are the 12 signs of the zodiac, which the sun, Horus, has as companions on his trip through the sky.

The planet Saturn is known in certain traditions as "el" and is used to mean "god", you can see this in all the names of the Angels, Michael, Samuel, Uriel, etc. Translated the angels names mean various aspects of god, that's why it has el in them. This obviously ties into the Roman celebration of Saturnalia, which is celebrated on the 25th.

You can't get any more pagan than the sun and stars being made into deities.

I do believe Jesus existed, but people probably shouldn't believe the version of him the Romans push. They were the ones who killed him, after all.

Miriam Letisse
Posted - 2010.12.09 20:22:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Miriam Letisse on 09/12/2010 20:22:35
You can call it whatever you want, at the end of the day people still get giddy and think to themselves "**** yeah! free stuff day!"

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2010.12.09 22:03:00 - [9]
 

I prefer bah humbug.

Sazkyen
Posted - 2010.12.09 22:07:00 - [10]
 

Season's Greetings FTW

Miriam Letisse
Posted - 2010.12.09 22:15:00 - [11]
 

Merry New Year!

C0c0R0sie
Posted - 2010.12.09 22:17:00 - [12]
 

wait what change?

illford baker
STK Scientific
IT Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.09 22:20:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: illford baker on 09/12/2010 22:20:29
i could try and tell what religion and holiday you celebrate, then say the correct phrase, or i can roll up all situations to happy holidays.
its lazy, the way i like it.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.10 00:21:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 10/12/2010 00:22:22

“Happy holidays” is more appropriate in the "new world" in my opinion. The new world being a world of massive cultural intermingling. It shows that you the greeter is not making an assumption to the persons beliefe systems and somewhat avoids being offensive to those that hold no specific significance to this time of year.

Originally by: Jate Gunma
"Many think Jesus Christ was a historical figure and since he was the reason the day was founded in the first place


Actually Christmas was founded to pacify the the newly conquered pagans that celebrated the Winter Solstice or any of the other winter celebrations.


EDIT: spelling


Slade

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.10 00:31:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Riedle on 10/12/2010 00:32:32
Quote:
Actually Christmas was founded to pacify the the newly conquered pagans that celebrated the Winter Solstice or any of the other winter celebrations


Actually it was that and to ease conversion from the Roman deities to Christianity. But it was to celebrate the birth of Christ and it was placed near the time of the existing pagan rituals to ease it in.

So it was founded to celebrate the birth of Christ. It was placed on the date it was for the reason that you state (but not just for newly conquered peoples - Roman citizens too, since Rome itself had just become officially Christian).

Also I don't see why a valid reason why anyone would get upset if someone were to wish them a merry Christmas since it is a thoroughly secular holiday as well. I certainly would not be upset if someone wished me a Happy Chanukah or a happy Ramadan. People need to stop looking for reasons to be offended.

Everyone needs to suck it up.

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2010.12.10 01:06:00 - [16]
 

Festivus for the rest of us.

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.12.10 01:13:00 - [17]
 

People who get upset over either one have too much time on their hands and simply need something to b!tch about.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.12.10 01:15:00 - [18]
 

i say merry christmas or happy holidays and if someone gets offended that i'm not wishing them goodwill in their preferred manner, **** em

they probably can't stand the holiday season anyway with that attitude

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.12.10 02:04:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 10/12/2010 02:18:34
Originally by: Riedle
Actually it was that and to ease conversion from the Roman deities to Christianity.


Yeah, the Romans would have been real keen on just dropping all their beliefs, and also everything they picked up from the Egyptians, in order to celebrate someone they hated.

There was no conversion, they just slapped the name of Jesus on one of their existing Deities and removed every trace of who he really was.

At any rate, theres been a celebration on the 25th much like the one we have today for many, many, thousands of years, and i honestly don't care what people call it. I even call it Christmas myself, and normally don't even share any of this stuff i've said with 'believers'.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.10 02:29:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Riedle
Edited by: Riedle on 10/12/2010 00:32:32
Quote:
Actually Christmas was founded to pacify the the newly conquered pagans that celebrated the Winter Solstice or any of the other winter celebrations


Actually it was that and to ease conversion from the Roman deities to Christianity. But it was to celebrate the birth of Christ and it was placed near the time of the existing pagan rituals to ease it in.

So it was founded to celebrate the birth of Christ. It was placed on the date it was for the reason that you state (but not just for newly conquered peoples - Roman citizens too, since Rome itself had just become officially Christian).

Also I don't see why a valid reason why anyone would get upset if someone were to wish them a merry Christmas since it is a thoroughly secular holiday as well. I certainly would not be upset if someone wished me a Happy Chanukah or a happy Ramadan. People need to stop looking for reasons to be offended.

Everyone needs to suck it up.


True true on your points about Christmas. I included the Romans in the pagan grouping though.

As for the individuals that could take offense I was leaning more towards ardent atheists or the scrooges that thoroughly hate this time of year, not a specific theist taking offense to another theist wishing them the opposite happy holiday. But yeah they need to suck it up as well Laughing


Slade

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.12.10 02:39:00 - [21]
 

I only buy presents n stuff from shops that actually say 'merry christmas'. Anything else i just walk on past

No one has ever said to me 'happy holidays' lol

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2010.12.10 02:43:00 - [22]
 

Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, either one. In the US, Christianity remains quite dominant, so it's almost always "Christmas", even if it is Pancha Ganapati for some, Hanukkah for others, etc.

Dosent matter much to me, really.

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2010.12.10 02:47:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Headerman
I only buy presents n stuff from shops that actually say 'merry christmas'. Anything else i just walk on past

No one has ever said to me 'happy holidays' lol


I'm sure there are shopkeepers out there now taking notes.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.10 03:24:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Riedle on 10/12/2010 03:28:07
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 10/12/2010 02:18:34
Originally by: Riedle
Actually it was that and to ease conversion from the Roman deities to Christianity.


Yeah, the Romans would have been real keen on just dropping all their beliefs, and also everything they picked up from the Egyptians, in order to celebrate someone they hated.

There was no conversion, they just slapped the name of Jesus on one of their existing Deities and removed every trace of who he really was.

At any rate, theres been a celebration on the 25th much like the one we have today for many, many, thousands of years, and i honestly don't care what people call it. I even call it Christmas myself, and normally don't even share any of this stuff i've said with 'believers'.


LOL

There is some interesting history here Tarantuala even if you prefer to not understand it.

There was almost 400 years from the death of Jesus at the hands of Pontius Pilat to the time when the Roman Empire officially converted. In that time a large proportion of the Roman populations, both citizens and non-citizens converted to Chistianity on their own. In the early days of the church Christianity spread very, very fast.

There was no need to shove it down the throats of their citizens as they were adopting it on their own.

But you are right, partially. At the first Christians were burned at the stake. I just think you are entirely ignorant about the amount of time that passed between the two events. It was a looong time. The Roman civilization was around for over 1000 years - longer even depending on how you measure the end.

Anyways, there was most assuredly a conversion, it just happened over many, many generations.

Pretty interesting stuff. I studied both Roman history and history of religion, but it was a long time ago, but I still find it interesting.

I also find it interesting that while you have no issue with attempting to dismiss Christianity and/or Christians - I can guarantee you would be here calling out people whom you thought insulted Islam or buddhism for example. lol
I'm not even a Christian, really, I just find it interesting how the left likes to denigrate anything that is considered the culture of western nations and automatically defends anything that isn't. I still can't figure out why that is.

Wild and crazy times we live in!

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.10 04:12:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Headerman
I only buy presents n stuff from shops that actually say 'merry christmas'. Anything else i just walk on past

No one has ever said to me 'happy holidays' lol



Well it is well over due.


Happy Holiday's


Slade

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.12.10 04:15:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 10/12/2010 04:25:57
Originally by: Riedle
There is some interesting history here Tarantuala even if you prefer to not understand it.

There was almost 400 years from the death of Jesus at the hands of Pontius Pilat to the time when the Roman Empire officially converted. In that time a large proportion of the Roman populations, both citizens and non-citizens converted to Chistianity on their own. In the early days of the church Christianity spread very, very fast.

There was no need to shove it down the throats of their citizens as they were adopting it on their own.


And the Romans hated every bit of it, throwing Christian citizens to the lions and crucifying them over those 400 years. They really didn't like Jesus, and they couldn't get people to shut up about him, so they instead just made the ole switcheroo and had people thinking Jesus was something they agreed with. Which isn't as hard as you might think, over the course of generations.

All that modern people know Jesus through is the version of him in the heavily edited and revised Roman Catholic Bible, which repeats even older tales like the epic of Gigamesh from the Sumerians, which involves Gilgamesh building an ark and doing everything Noah is said to have done, among other things. As for who Jesus is in the modern Bible, that is a cut and paste job of Horus, heavy with symbolism. Not any kind of accurate account of the life of Jesus.

Whenever we unearth new documents from that time, which haven't yet been squirreled away, we hear that Jesus was himself a Gnostic, and the stories about his life closely match who Muslims claim he was, and not the version the Romans are pushing. I'm not saying Islam is right about everything, but they seem to be more on the mark there when we find documents which are Gnostic and not associated with Islam saying the same thing.

Corozan Aspinall
Perkone
Posted - 2010.12.10 04:47:00 - [27]
 

Happy Holidays may be more accurate but it just smells of political correctness.

It also touches a raw nerve with some people to push stuff like that which basically says 'don't be offended by our culture - we'll change it to something valueless to appease you!' etc.

So a lot of utterly atheist people who loathe Christianity will cling to 'Christmas' Holidays like a super model to a pork chop regardless.

Aiwha
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.12.10 07:11:00 - [28]
 

I choose to say "Happy holidays" starting with December 1st, as Hanuka, Christmas, and others begin in that area and run the month. On December 14'th, ten days before Christmas, I will begin using "Merry Christmas" as it is indeed the Christmas season. I refuse to call any time before the 14th of December Christmas.

That's how I do it and that's how it will stay.

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2010.12.10 11:26:00 - [29]
 

anyone who seriously demands people or businesses use one over the other is being a douche and needs to relax. The express mention or non-mention of a particular near-winter solstice festival should not be construed as a sign of disrespect.

also, i think there are about eleventy gazillion things that are more important to society in general than mindless crap like holiday greeting choices

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.10 12:56:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
And the Romans hated every bit of it, throwing Christian citizens to the lions and crucifying them over those 400 years.

That is accurate in the specific but not in the general as the Romans themselves over those 400 years converted to Christianity.

Quote:
They really didn't like Jesus, and they couldn't get people to shut up about him, so they instead just made the ole switcheroo and had people thinking Jesus was something they agreed with. Which isn't as hard as you might think, over the course of generations.


LOL - who are 'they'? The Roman civilization encompassed millions of people. Blanket statements like that make you appear very ignorant on the subject.

Quote:
All that modern people know Jesus through is the version of him in the heavily edited and revised Roman Catholic Bible, which repeats even older tales like the epic of Gigamesh from the Sumerians, which involves Gilgamesh building an ark and doing everything Noah is said to have done, among other things.


Uhh... that is in the old testament - not the new testament. Jesus is only in the new testament..

Quote:
As for who Jesus is in the modern Bible, that is a cut and paste job of Horus, heavy with symbolism. Not any kind of accurate account of the life of Jesus.


So you say. Most people agree that Jesus was indeed a historical figure that did in fact exist. The 'argument' such as it were, is wether he was the Son of God or not.

Quote:
Whenever we unearth new documents from that time, which haven't yet been squirreled away, we hear that Jesus was himself a Gnostic, and the stories about his life closely match who Muslims claim he was, and not the version the Romans are pushing.


Ahh.. I see. So the Muslim version of Jesus is more accurate?

Quote:
I'm not saying Islam is right about everything, but they seem to be more on the mark there when we find documents which are Gnostic and not associated with Islam saying the same thing.


The point being you can believe whatever it is you want - and so can others.

Merry Christmas Tarantula!
:)


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