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Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2010.12.08 08:05:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Ai Mei
spreading secrets is not a good idea right now all it will do is hurt relations. Its like taking all your siblings and friends journals and reading them outloud over the intercom at high school
This is probably the most apt description of wikileaks to date. The guy had the right idea but the implimentation left much to be desired.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2010.12.08 08:22:00 - [92]
 


Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.08 08:38:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Another interesting take..





Hehe, you and your crazy conspiracy theories Laughing

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.12.08 10:15:00 - [94]
 

Well, atleast it is reassuring to see that some people get it.

Posting secret documents/info a country/government has can cause conflict. How many people really want a war(s)? It shouldn't matter what country the 'leaks' are on. We're all human.

I think people have had their minds warped by biased media that exists in every country. No.. your country is NOT special and does not have unbiased journalism, no one does. Quit that crap. This isn't some Real World drama **** that plays out for people to be entertained.. which is sadly the case with a lot of you. Admit it or not, idc.

Since people like conspiracy theories. Here is one.. Assange has contacts or is upto his old hacking tricks. Paid by corp or government that wants to see **** go down, and by that.. I mean boom boom fighting. He potentially now has the means to make such happen.. and his employeer is pleased. Before he hands over the 'Golden Chalice of Truth' to his employeer or made released.. he needs to be made to disappear. Sent to Prison.. on a nice tropical island.

I can come up with crap out of my ass too that actually sounds legit.

Doesn't make the **** you read true.

Freedom of speech is wonderful.. gives people the freedom to lie out of their ass, remember that.

Freedom of speech shouldn't be a tool that esculates the world landscape into warfare and the death of people. That's simply ****ED UP.

Some of you really need to get your head's checked.


baltec1
Posted - 2010.12.08 10:35:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Umega
Well, atleast it is reassuring to see that some people get it.

Posting secret documents/info a country/government has can cause conflict. How many people really want a war(s)? It shouldn't matter what country the 'leaks' are on. We're all human.

I think people have had their minds warped by biased media that exists in every country. No.. your country is NOT special and does not have unbiased journalism, no one does. Quit that crap. This isn't some Real World drama **** that plays out for people to be entertained.. which is sadly the case with a lot of you. Admit it or not, idc.

Since people like conspiracy theories. Here is one.. Assange has contacts or is upto his old hacking tricks. Paid by corp or government that wants to see **** go down, and by that.. I mean boom boom fighting. He potentially now has the means to make such happen.. and his employeer is pleased. Before he hands over the 'Golden Chalice of Truth' to his employeer or made released.. he needs to be made to disappear. Sent to Prison.. on a nice tropical island.

I can come up with crap out of my ass too that actually sounds legit.

Doesn't make the **** you read true.

Freedom of speech is wonderful.. gives people the freedom to lie out of their ass, remember that.

Freedom of speech shouldn't be a tool that esculates the world landscape into warfare and the death of people. That's simply ****ED UP.

Some of you really need to get your head's checked.




Sorry but if a government commits a crime and lies to its own people and the world then the whistle should blown and those responsible punished. Funny how America condones this kind of thing when it happens to other countries it doesnt like but when it happens to them it is suddenly bad.


Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.08 11:13:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Umega
Well, atleast it is reassuring to see that some people get it.

Posting secret documents/info a country/government has can cause conflict. How many people really want a war(s)? It shouldn't matter what country the 'leaks' are on. We're all human.

I think people have had their minds warped by biased media that exists in every country. No.. your country is NOT special and does not have unbiased journalism, no one does. Quit that crap. This isn't some Real World drama **** that plays out for people to be entertained.. which is sadly the case with a lot of you. Admit it or not, idc.

Since people like conspiracy theories. Here is one.. Assange has contacts or is upto his old hacking tricks. Paid by corp or government that wants to see **** go down, and by that.. I mean boom boom fighting. He potentially now has the means to make such happen.. and his employeer is pleased. Before he hands over the 'Golden Chalice of Truth' to his employeer or made released.. he needs to be made to disappear. Sent to Prison.. on a nice tropical island.

I can come up with crap out of my ass too that actually sounds legit.

Doesn't make the **** you read true.

Freedom of speech is wonderful.. gives people the freedom to lie out of their ass, remember that.

Freedom of speech shouldn't be a tool that esculates the world landscape into warfare and the death of people. That's simply ****ED UP.

Some of you really need to get your head's checked.




Woodward and Bernstein destabilized the US government by taking out the credibility of the President of the USA. This surely would have equated to endangering the US during the cold war right? Why were they allowed to expunge the top secret and illegal dealings of the presidency, yet today if a journalist exposes a government as liers and cheats it is espionage and should be treated by death?


Slade

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.12.08 11:19:00 - [97]
 

I love how so many people here think that the US is the only country lying to its citizens and doing illegal activities behind closed doors, like this is some revelation.

Also, everyone calling this a matter of freedom of speech is a hypocritical douchebag. This is NOT freedom of speech because it's CLASSIFIED material. Every government has a right to keep certain information away from the public in the interest of national security. If you don't get that, you're either 12 years old or you're an idiot or both.

Just be honest; you want to see the skeletons in the US's closet. Don't make some bull**** statement how it's the right of the people to know this information because IT'S NOT. Just be honest and say you're curious and want to know, just like the rest of us.

Furthermore, people calling for his death should be sterilized. Stop breathing my air. He should be tried for espionage, simple as that. Also, THIS IS NOT TREASON. People saying he is treasonous should also be sterilized. You can't be tried for treason if you aren't a citizen of said country. Idiots.

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.12.08 11:30:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: Astenion on 08/12/2010 11:31:38
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Umega
Well, atleast it is reassuring to see that some people get it.

Posting secret documents/info a country/government has can cause conflict. How many people really want a war(s)? It shouldn't matter what country the 'leaks' are on. We're all human.

I think people have had their minds warped by biased media that exists in every country. No.. your country is NOT special and does not have unbiased journalism, no one does. Quit that crap. This isn't some Real World drama **** that plays out for people to be entertained.. which is sadly the case with a lot of you. Admit it or not, idc.

Since people like conspiracy theories. Here is one.. Assange has contacts or is upto his old hacking tricks. Paid by corp or government that wants to see **** go down, and by that.. I mean boom boom fighting. He potentially now has the means to make such happen.. and his employeer is pleased. Before he hands over the 'Golden Chalice of Truth' to his employeer or made released.. he needs to be made to disappear. Sent to Prison.. on a nice tropical island.

I can come up with crap out of my ass too that actually sounds legit.

Doesn't make the **** you read true.

Freedom of speech is wonderful.. gives people the freedom to lie out of their ass, remember that.

Freedom of speech shouldn't be a tool that esculates the world landscape into warfare and the death of people. That's simply ****ED UP.

Some of you really need to get your head's checked.




Woodward and Bernstein destabilized the US government by taking out the credibility of the President of the USA. This surely would have equated to endangering the US during the cold war right? Why were they allowed to expunge the top secret and illegal dealings of the presidency, yet today if a journalist exposes a government as liers and cheats it is espionage and should be treated by death?



Slade




I think the Watergate scandal was much less damaging to the US and its interests...it was mainly about Nixon and his covering up of the break-in. These papers compromise an entire network of intelligence gathering all over the world and the repercussions will be far, far more damaging. Watergate was about Nixon's presidency and an election, not about national security.

It's the exact same thing that happened in the Valerie Plame case, yet the Bush administration intervened and gave Scooter Libby a suspended sentence, which is a travesty. Everyone involved in the outing of Plame should be tried and sent to prison, yet they made Libby take the fall and Bush protected him when the courts found him guilty by keeping him out of jail.

Noun Verber
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.08 11:43:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Astenion


Also, everyone calling this a matter of freedom of speech is a hypocritical douchebag. This is NOT freedom of speech because it's CLASSIFIED material. Every government has a right to keep certain information away from the public in the interest of national security. If you don't get that, you're either 12 years old or you're an idiot or both.


I think that the point of all of this is that inane rubbish like what's being shared should not have been made classified in the first place and/or should not be shared with those that don't need to know. Really, why was the source able to get this volume of information?

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.12.08 12:16:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Noun Verber
Originally by: Astenion


Also, everyone calling this a matter of freedom of speech is a hypocritical douchebag. This is NOT freedom of speech because it's CLASSIFIED material. Every government has a right to keep certain information away from the public in the interest of national security. If you don't get that, you're either 12 years old or you're an idiot or both.


I think that the point of all of this is that inane rubbish like what's being shared should not have been made classified in the first place and/or should not be shared with those that don't need to know. Really, why was the source able to get this volume of information?


That's a whole different story altogether. The source of the leak was an intel troop who had access to all this info.

In classified documents, one single word can change the entire classification. So while some of these cables may seem quite harmless, and most of them really are, there are names, dates, events, etc. that render them classified.

Contrary to popular belief, most classified documents are of little interest to the public. The entire reason they're classified is to protect their sources and their content. You're not going to find out who shot Kennedy or what's in Area 51 in a SECRET or SECRET NOFORN document. People are anxiously awaiting some big revelation or explosive discovery and it's just not going to happen. These types of documents just aren't that interesting...they read more along the lines of a gossip magazine than anything else.

The big deal in all of this is the source and the fact that WE KNOW what's detailed in the documents, not actually what is there. We don't really care about the Saudi Prince having lavish parties with prostitutes and liquor (something strictly forbidden in the Saudi kingdom), but we don't want the rest of the world to find out that we know about it, and THAT'S why it's classified.

baltec1
Posted - 2010.12.08 12:19:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: baltec1 on 08/12/2010 12:20:58
Internet hacktivists are claiming to have brought down the Mastercard website as revenge for the firm withdrawing services to Wikileaks.

The Anonymous group of hackers have also brought down the website of the Swedish prosecutors office which is pursuing founder Julian Assange.

It has pledged to launch denial-of-service attacks on websites it sees as anti-Wikileaks.

Earlier it hit the Swiss bank that froze Mr Assange's assets.

PayPal, which has stopped processing donations to Wikileaks, has also been targeted.

Anonymous is a loose-knit group of hacktivists, with links to the notorious message board 4chan.



4chan is now at war LOL


Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:12:00 - [102]
 

A general problem with trying to keep a historical record of events and politicians nowadays is the photocopier and electronic communications. The historical record for figures such as Winston Churchill and say F D Roosevelt is relatively succinct. It is easier for historians to assess. But now with emails and photocopiers there is a mountain of historical record for historians and journalists to try and make head or tail of. 250,000 emails from George W Bush's two terms in office were released into the public record.

USA, the UK and probably other countries have like a 30 year rule for sensitive government information. After such a length of time the passions and strong emotions surrounding political events settles to allow a more dispassionate analysis by historians, journalists and the public.

But with wikileaks we are getting political information that is hot straight from the oven.


Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:32:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 08/12/2010 13:48:43
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 08/12/2010 13:35:44
Originally by: Astenion

I think the Watergate scandal was much less damaging to the US and its interests...it was mainly about Nixon and his covering up of the break-in. These papers compromise an entire network of intelligence gathering all over the world and the repercussions will be far, far more damaging. Watergate was about Nixon's presidency and an election, not about national security.

It's the exact same thing that happened in the Valerie Plame case, yet the Bush administration intervened and gave Scooter Libby a suspended sentence, which is a travesty. Everyone involved in the outing of Plame should be tried and sent to prison, yet they made Libby take the fall and Bush protected him when the courts found him guilty by keeping him out of jail.


So information should not be released just because it is damaging to those that committed the acts. How very Machiavellian of you Wink

Trust me, I know that governments do bad things and that they do not want them getting out, and that sometimes these dirty little secrets can cause massive upheaval when they get out, but we can not sit around and let other governments get trounced for their corrupt natures and then turn a blind eye when our own governments get caught with their pants down. We should always continue to strive for governments that will do less damaging things in the name of their people then their predecessors. And quite honestly if one is unable to look their general populace in their eyes and take account for a specific decision then one should think about that decision a little longer and think "if this gets out what could it do to the country."

EDIT: But unfortunately most politicians, across the board, are in it for themselves and not "their people."

EDIT 2: In the long run this type of thing is only going to become more prevelant. The hackers are the same people that build the security systems and add in the fact that all it takes is one person with a consciousness and who is qualified with access to sensitive information to create a leak. So no matter how much a government tries to hide their dirty laundry, there is ever increasing chances for information to leak, therefore even more reason to be more tactful when dealing with other countries.


Slade

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:37:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Vogue
But with wikileaks we are getting political information that is hot straight from the oven.


As it should be. We need to know the lies our governments are telling us now instead of after 30 years when it's too late to do anything about it.
It's the job of journalists to ensure the public is informed. Every journalist should back wikileaks 100% or start thinking about a career change.
The government should fear the wrath of its people, its the only thing that keeps it honest. Knowing that my lies might come out 30 years from now are zero deterrent to acting bad now as by then the public generally won't give a damn anymore.




Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:39:00 - [105]
 

Apparently German nationwide weekly newspaper "Die Zeit" did some research on the swedish prosecutor of Assange, Marianne Ny :

Marianne Ny gilt darüber hinaus als besonders weitgehende Staatsanwältin. So hatte sie sich einst in einem Fall von Frauenmisshandlung dafür ausgesprochen, dass Männer, die von Frauen beschuldigt werden, aber nicht verurteilt sind, in jedem Fall vorsorglich eingesperrt werden müssten – um der Frau "Raum zum Nachdenken" zu verschaffen. "Erst wenn der Mann gefangen genommen ist und die Frau in aller Ruhe Zeit bekommt, mit etwas Abstand auf ihr Dasein zu blicken, bekommt sie die Chance zu entdecken, wie sie behandelt wurde", sagte sie damals.

Ad-hoc translation: she thinks that if a woman accuses a not convicted man, this man should go to jail. While the man is jailed, the woman has some room to think about the situation.
"Only when the man is jailed and the woman has time to think about their existence/being(dasein,hard to translate), she will get the chance to discover how she was treated."

Hope some swedes here can provide better link/translation :-)

Anyhow.. this sounds like some kind of weird Taliban/Rumsfeld logic to me.

Betty Boom
Caldari
SPECTRE Syndicate
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:48:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks
Hope some swedes here can provide better link/translation :-)




The translation is more or less correct.

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2010.12.08 15:13:00 - [107]
 

A feminist, thinking empowering women is all about playing the victim card every chance they get.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.08 15:49:00 - [108]
 

A few snippets as things begin to fall into place :

"PayPal today admitted it suspended payments to WikiLeaks after an intervention from the US State Department. The site's vice-president of platform, Osama Bedier, told an internet conference the site had decided to freeze WikiLeaks's account on 4 December after government representatives said it was engaged in illegal activity. "State Dept told us these were illegal activities. It was straightforward," he told the LeWeb conference in Paris, adding: "We ... comply with regulations around the world, making sure that we protect our brand."

You'll note that the State Dept TOLD Paypal it was illegal. No judge involved.

"The US lobbied Russia this year on behalf of Visa and MasterCard in an attempt to ensure the payment companies were not "adversely affected" by new legislation, according to American diplomats in Moscow. A state department cable released this afternoon by WikiLeaks reveals that US diplomats intervened to try to amend a draft law going through Russia's Duma. Their explicit aim was to ensure the new law did not "disadvantage" the two US firms, the cable states. The revelation comes a day after Visa – apparently acting under intense pressure from Washington – announced it was suspending all payments to WikiLeaks, the whistle-blowing website. Visa was following MasterCard, PayPal and Amazon, all of which have severed ties with the site and its founder Julian Assange in the last few days."

Obvious of course but worth pointing out that Visa and Mastercard are US owned payment systems and as such follow US law (or what the State Dept says is law) first. Perhaps worth remembering that too, next time you apply for a card.

Oh and one that's worth reading as its co-signed by the man who leaked the Pentagon Papers way way back in 1971. That resulted in a landmark court ruling that the current generation of Americans don't seem to care about. I'm sure Ellsberg is very grateful he lived in a time when the rule of law meant more.

Anyway “EVERY attack now made on WikiLeaks and Julian Assange was made against me and the release of the Pentagon Papers at the time.”

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2010.12.08 15:52:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Wendat Huron
A feminist, thinking empowering women is all about playing the victim card every chance they get.

Well what did you expect? Shes only a woman Twisted Evil

Klown Walk
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.08 16:09:00 - [110]
 

Got it from a swedish newspaper and translated it with google translate so there might be some mistakes.

Quote:
Assange reported August 20, 2010 for the **** and molestation.

He was arrested the same evening in absentia by an on-call prosecutors in Stockholm, on suspicion of **** and molestation.

Application of Assange featured at 17 o'clock the next day by the chief prosecutor Eva Finné at City public prosecution office in Stockholm, since she considered that there was no longer reason to pursue it then "suspicion of **** no longer exists". The suspicion of molestation remains.

Prosecutors in New Marianne Prosecution development center in Gothenburg is re-opening the inquiry a week later, on September 1. The case, which is grouped under molestation, now classified as sexual assault and sexual molestation. The decision of the Appellate case writes New: "In my study of the case, I note that there is reason to believe that an offense subject to public prosecution has been committed."

On November 18 arrested Julian Assange in absentia for a case of duress on 13-14 August in Stockholm, sexual assault on 13-14 August in Stockholm, sexual molestation August 18 or thereabouts days in Stockholm, sexual assault, 16 -17 August in Enköping and **** on 17 August Enköping. In deciding on the detention, decides that also call Assange internationally.

Detention appealed to the Svea Court of Appeal, which rejected the appeal. The Court of Appeal, however, adjust the classification of offenses. A case of sexual molestation is rejected and removed while the Court of Appeal should grade down degree of suspicion for the **** of a minor felony.

On 30 November, an appeal to the Supreme Court, but the HD does not address the detention of the Wikileaks founders Julian Assange. Thus he continued international wanted list.

A European arrest warrant issued, but it appears to lack a specification of the maximum sentence for each of the four offenses Assange is suspected. The Swedish arrest warrant contains only a specification of the maximum sentence. Therefore, the British police did not arrest Assange.

The European arrest warrant is complemented by the Swedish authorities in early December with the information requested and sent again to the UK where Assange located.

Julian Assange take voluntarily contacted the police and arrested on Tuesday 7 December. On the same day Wikileaksgrundaren heard in a court in central London. He does not agree to be extradited to Sweden. Decision is made to bring Julian Assange in custody in Wandsworth Prison. He remains in custody until December 14 when negotiations for his release.

Tommy Kangas Vieri, deputy director of the IPO (Rikskrim unit for international police cooperation), told TT that it could take "up to 90 days' prior Assange extradited if he opposes extradition because Assange has the right to appeal the decision.


Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:12:00 - [111]
 

Found it on Craig Murray's blog :

This from Danish WMD whistelblower - jailed for two years for whistleblowing - Major Frank Grevil:

Comparison of crime statistics between the three Scandinavian countries,
which have historically a highly similar societal structure, gives the
remarkable result that the incidence of sexual crimes is about ten times
higher in Sweden than in Denmark or Norway. Usually Sweden's higher
proportion of unassimilated immigrants from first and foremost islamic
countries is blamed, but it would seem to be only a minor part of the
explanation. Rather, political instructions to the police seem to be the
major reason!
Critics maintain that Sweden has turned into a gynocracy, with some of the
most hateful female politicians - front figures for a party called
"Feministiskt initiativ"* - having publicly declared that male fetuses
should be selectively aborted, and all adult males castrated!
In such an atmosphere of hate, the Swedish police has been instructed to put
all alleged crimes of even the most remotely sexual character under the
statistical heading "****". This includes consenting intercourse between
teenagers with the female part being slightly under-age. It also includes
consenting intercourse where the female part was drunk.

Craig:
So whoever initiated the plot to go for Assange on Swedish sexual charges knew what they were doing.



Julian Assagne
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:18:00 - [112]
 

Edited by: Julian Assagne on 08/12/2010 17:17:59
What? a Thread about me? I feel Honoured Surprised.

FREE Myself!

-Julian Assagne YARRRR!!
CEO of EVELeaks

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:39:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks
Ad-hoc translation: she thinks that if a woman accuses a not convicted man, this man should go to jail. While the man is jailed, the woman has some room to think about the situation.
"Only when the man is jailed and the woman has time to think about their existence/being(dasein,hard to translate), she will get the chance to discover how she was treated."


there are no words to express how angry this makes me

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:52:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 08/12/2010 13:48:43
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 08/12/2010 13:35:44
Originally by: Astenion

I think the Watergate scandal was much less damaging to the US and its interests...it was mainly about Nixon and his covering up of the break-in. These papers compromise an entire network of intelligence gathering all over the world and the repercussions will be far, far more damaging. Watergate was about Nixon's presidency and an election, not about national security.

It's the exact same thing that happened in the Valerie Plame case, yet the Bush administration intervened and gave Scooter Libby a suspended sentence, which is a travesty. Everyone involved in the outing of Plame should be tried and sent to prison, yet they made Libby take the fall and Bush protected him when the courts found him guilty by keeping him out of jail.


So information should not be released just because it is damaging to those that committed the acts. How very Machiavellian of you Wink

Trust me, I know that governments do bad things and that they do not want them getting out, and that sometimes these dirty little secrets can cause massive upheaval when they get out, but we can not sit around and let other governments get trounced for their corrupt natures and then turn a blind eye when our own governments get caught with their pants down. We should always continue to strive for governments that will do less damaging things in the name of their people then their predecessors. And quite honestly if one is unable to look their general populace in their eyes and take account for a specific decision then one should think about that decision a little longer and think "if this gets out what could it do to the country."

EDIT: But unfortunately most politicians, across the board, are in it for themselves and not "their people."

EDIT 2: In the long run this type of thing is only going to become more prevelant. The hackers are the same people that build the security systems and add in the fact that all it takes is one person with a consciousness and who is qualified with access to sensitive information to create a leak. So no matter how much a government tries to hide their dirty laundry, there is ever increasing chances for information to leak, therefore even more reason to be more tactful when dealing with other countries.


Slade



No, I think information should be released even if it highlights some people in a way unbecoming to them. My only problem is that people say this is freedom of speech, as if John Q. Public has a RIGHT to read classified material simply because he's curious. No, classified material exists for a reason, and that's to protect the public as well as our national security.

I think it's a good thing that the US has come under the microscope and hopefully some meaningful change will be brought about in Washington because of this. However, that still doesn't give the public the "right" they think they have to demand they see classified information. I held a Secret clearance, so does that mean I'm entitled to read these reports? Of course not, much less the average citizen. The end does NOT justify the means here, especially since the end result is something you'd read in a gossip magazine. People are curious and nosy and they hide behind "freedom of speech" to claim they have a right to see classified information. Just be honest and admit you want to know and you're curious, but don't say **** like "It's my RIGHT as a citizen to know!". No, it's not. If that were true, we wouldn't have been the first to develop the bomb or the first to field stealth technology, and the geopolitical map would probably look a whole lot different today had we not kept our secrets safe.

dr doooo
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:29:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Astenion
I love how so many people here think that the US is the only country lying to its citizens and doing illegal activities behind closed doors, like this is some revelation.

Who said that?
Originally by: Astenion
Also, everyone calling this a matter of freedom of speech is a hypocritical douchebag. This is NOT freedom of speech because it's CLASSIFIED material. Every government has a right to keep certain information away from the public in the interest of national security. If you don't get that, you're either 12 years old or you're an idiot or both.

Are you trolling here? Freedom of speech only applies to things a government doesn't deem CLASSIFIED? Even a 12 year old idiot could see the problem with that. If a government or nation wants to keep some things classified, then that's up to them to manage their own security and keep that information safe within their own jurisdiction. Outside of that jurisdiction, people have no obligation to honour their interpretation of 'classified in the interest of national security', be that Mugabee's police death squads, or the duplicity of diplomats.
Originally by: Astenion
Just be honest; you want to see the skeletons in the US's closet. Don't make some bull**** statement how it's the right of the people to know this information because IT'S NOT. Just be honest and say you're curious and want to know, just like the rest of us.

That old chesnut again. The rest of the world is just jealous right? It's not about peoples' right to see a nations classified information (and I can't remember anyone claiming that itt), it's about a nation not having the right to step outside of it's jurisdiction the censor on a global scale.
Originally by: Astenion
Furthermore, people calling for his death should be sterilized. Stop breathing my air. He should be tried for espionage, simple as that. Also, THIS IS NOT TREASON. People saying he is treasonous should also be sterilized. You can't be tried for treason if you aren't a citizen of said country. Idiots.

What's with all the sterilizing talk - makes you sound like a ****? Anyway it's not espionage, and it's pretty bleeding obvious that he can't be tried for it as such, 'simple at that'. If they could, do you really think they would be 'red flagging' him on Interpol's most wanted list for not wearing a condom? An Australian living and running a website in Sweden is not bound by the laws of the USA, or any other country for that matter except Sweden. It's not rocket science.


Malaclypse Muscaria
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:37:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Malaclypse Muscaria on 08/12/2010 18:39:09
Originally by: Astenion
No, I think information should be released even if it highlights some people in a way unbecoming to them. My only problem is that people say this is freedom of speech, as if John Q. Public has a RIGHT to read classified material simply because he's curious. No, classified material exists for a reason, and that's to protect the public as well as our national security.

Astenion, WTF are you trying to get at?

You seem to be engaged in some sort sterile mental fap about "rights". Well, here's the thing: all "rights" are a human convention, an invention. They don't exist out there in some sort of objetive and absolute form and they don't have some sort of divine origin.

We generally agree on upholding them because it's "nice". Some are pretty obvious and very few people would disagree on them, but many go into gray areas, and depending on the jurisdiction / context / situation / who's involved, etc... they may vary wildly.

So what we have here is an organization claiming they have a "right" to keep their secret stuff secret, versus citizens claiming they have a "right" to publish and read those secrets, particularly since the former organization has many powers over them and is prone to abuse these.

No side is right by "divine right". Period. You simply pick your side, what you yourself believe is "right", and defend that position. Do you support what Wikileaks is doing? Do you side with the US government in shutting them down and arresting Assange? Or you just don't give a f*ck about any of it all, and they could all go diaf for all you care?

That's what matters. Those abstract discussions about "rights" you are going into is just that, masturbation, particularly since we are talking here about many different countries with many different jurisdictions and understandings of "rights".

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:40:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Astenion
Originally by: Noun Verber
Originally by: Astenion


Also, everyone calling this a matter of freedom of speech is a hypocritical douchebag. This is NOT freedom of speech because it's CLASSIFIED material. Every government has a right to keep certain information away from the public in the interest of national security. If you don't get that, you're either 12 years old or you're an idiot or both.


I think that the point of all of this is that inane rubbish like what's being shared should not have been made classified in the first place and/or should not be shared with those that don't need to know. Really, why was the source able to get this volume of information?


That's a whole different story altogether. The source of the leak was an intel troop who had access to all this info.

In classified documents, one single word can change the entire classification. So while some of these cables may seem quite harmless, and most of them really are, there are names, dates, events, etc. that render them classified.

Contrary to popular belief, most classified documents are of little interest to the public. The entire reason they're classified is to protect their sources and their content. You're not going to find out who shot Kennedy or what's in Area 51 in a SECRET or SECRET NOFORN document. People are anxiously awaiting some big revelation or explosive discovery and it's just not going to happen. These types of documents just aren't that interesting...they read more along the lines of a gossip magazine than anything else.

The big deal in all of this is the source and the fact that WE KNOW what's detailed in the documents, not actually what is there. We don't really care about the Saudi Prince having lavish parties with prostitutes and liquor (something strictly forbidden in the Saudi kingdom), but we don't want the rest of the world to find out that we know about it, and THAT'S why it's classified.


Ahh, nice to see a sane voice in the wilderness of tinfoil and childish schadenfreude.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:41:00 - [118]
 

Probably worth noting at this point these leaked documents are pretty much just US diplomats trash talking other diplomats and countries, and don't really endanger national security, unless you count people getting upset that US diplomats are two-faced, which they probably knew already.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:45:00 - [119]
 

You know the thing that REALLY annoys me?

Its morons saying he should be tried for espionage.

OK lets look at this in your (US) legal system :

1) Did he induce or coerce anyone to provide the info - no;
2) Did the transfer of info take place on US territory (includes embassies/bases/etc) - no.

So how in the hell is it espionage or as some of your more illiterate journos/bloggers are calling it "Treason"?

Get a grip. Have you any idea how you look to the rest of the world?

Malaclypse Muscaria
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:48:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Probably worth noting at this point these leaked documents are pretty much just US diplomats trash talking other diplomats and countries, and don't really endanger national security, unless you count people getting upset that US diplomats are two-faced, which they probably knew already.

Not true, even if that's the gist of what major news networks seem to be focusing on. At least when it comes to my own government, these leaks have demonstrated how they've been screwing their citizens on certain matters that were in the interest of the US, while at the same time telling the public they were doing the opposite.


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