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Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.07 08:57:00 - [1]
 

Macro Miners - Live in high sec (mainly) leech all the ore, lower mineral prices, screw up the market

Macro Ratters - Live in lowsec & 0.0, kill all the rats

Macro Haulers - Live in high sec doing courier missions or trade goods exchanging while travelling to lowsec

Macro Industry - I came across this yesterday, "a script so useful to 0.0 mega alliances, you would be a fool not to have", it allows 'elite players' to use the same function from one scientist to another, very useful for pos related stuff, moon management with a few clicks :P

This can also be used for other stuff too, it is basically a multiboxing benefit, sadly you need a brain in order to create scipts so I doubt most alliances (despite what I have read) use this, though it would make their industry instant.

Some of these botters RMT, CCP only seem to ban RMT

Recently an article was made on evenews24, now I dont believe the crap that was written on there, since evenews24 source is shc or kugu and kugu is known to troll through articles, you know when you have that German buffoon making a thread that it is obviously a troll.

But I did have a look at certain macro / bot sites and I was really concerned about something, personal scripting sites had approx 3k+ active subscribers to the EVE package alone, in order to use their ap you needed an active account too, normal botting sites had well over 6000+ downloads of their eve bot.

Lets assume all those botters are happily botting 23.5/7 since why not, CCP are obviously only banning RMT only, that means approx 10k+ players are botting a day, approx 20% of the online population.

There is many steps involved with these bots in order to make them work, alot of requirements at the client side are necessary, as I mentioned yesterday "inability to pin menus" no this doesnt mean moving the UI, it means making them solid (no background). It appears this is a major problem that causes most of the issues in the bot, if done incorrectly ofc.

I would like to know how CCP are going to address the botting issue, not just the RMT issue like last year but the botting issue overall, unholy rage only targeted RMT it didnt target normal botters.

There is an awful lot of pressure on 0.0 with the removal of bots since all these websites claimed to help 0.0 alliances with 'mass' production and income.

There is a saying, "if you cant beat them, join them", so explain why normal eve players should play normally when bots can freely bot and CCP do nothing about it. On these websites there isnt a single "I got banned" thread but there is several "DONT RMT OR YOU WILL GET BANNED" threads, it is almost like the rumours of CCP approving of botting is true, but since they have openly said “you can use macros if its on your keyboard” why would it be accurate

I really hope CSM make this a top priority before eve turns into ‘Bots Online’ which I am certain it will shortly be branded as.

gfldex
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:21:00 - [2]
 

I would really like to see CCP step forward and express their feelings towards botters that don't engage in RMT. It would be sad to see players to vote with their feet because they don't see why they should bother to fight space holding entities that are impossible to run out of ISK.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.10 12:34:00 - [3]
 

Damn Owledge lol

Have the CSM got any plans to bring the major problem of botting to CCP?

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.12.16 13:45:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
Damn Owledge lol

Have the CSM got any plans to bring the major problem of botting to CCP?


Yes. It was supposed to be the theme of one of the discussion sessions. At least thats the answer I got when I asked the same question in the Assembly Hall. Or well, the general theme was RMT as CCP seems to be there but I'm sure the issue of general botting will be arised as well from the players side.

Marak Mocam
Posted - 2010.12.20 07:21:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos

I really hope CSM make this a top priority before eve turns into ‘Bots Online’ which I am certain it will shortly be branded as.


I believe that is now SWG's alternate name. Go to the Sony forums for that game and look up bots. It's supported.

You have bots to level up your character - links available. Level up your pet. Park & farm for currency. Park & farm for rare drops. Park & farm for collection items.... They only lack bots for PvP and there are some pretty healthy macros available to help with that portion of the game.

I played it a bit and came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth playing. The player base simply bots to "max level" then bots for all their currency and bot for all their items. There is no "playing" that game outside of just running into the PvP areas or hitting the market to buy/sell what your bot sessions obtained for you.

It's a shame really. That game had a lot of interesting stuff to it. Space mining that had challenges and risks to it, various PvE encouters, PvP areas in the worlds as well as space, etc... It wasn't what it used to be but it was a game that looked quite playable except the bots everywhere. That was unacceptable. I have other uses for my computer and trying to play a game that is bot driven was worthless.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.12.20 15:08:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 20/12/2010 15:26:10
Originally by: Marak Mocam
They only lack bots for PvP and there are some pretty healthy macros available to help with that portion of the game.


During SWG's CU period, one of the live entertainers (Yes, there were a few of them) made several PvP assist bots, trying to make a point of how badly bots could break the game. Since SOE openly allowed the bots to ruin any work prospects for the entertainers (A GM actually awarded a medal to a well known buff bot for "Excellence in Profession"), she didn't have much to loose through ****ing people off.

I don't remember the specifics of how it was done, but I seem to recall that SWG had something similar to EvE's gang broadcast, and that by digging deep into the macro system you could make the macros react to those broadcasts and call other macros.

When she put the Master Combat Medic / Master Rifleman Assist Bot out for for hire, it was a favorite among the Bounty Hunters and ****ed off more than a few aspiring Jedi.

The Ranger bot was another one that really ****ed off a niche group of players, flooding the markets with whatever organics had the best stats for that day.

gfldex
Posted - 2010.12.23 11:55:00 - [7]
 

A slightly related question I came up with is now many ppl that claim to be hacked have made quite some nice $$$ in the process. A fairly big can of worms indeed.

Corian Teranos
Caldari
Joint Espionage and Defence Industries
Preatoriani
Posted - 2010.12.31 21:39:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Corian Teranos on 31/12/2010 21:58:22
i get really ****ed off when people start talking about macros as if they are bots. because of you ignorant idiots macros are banned under the same catagory as bots.

a bot. is the main issue in eve. a bot is like a npc ai script that interacts with your client and allows your ship to make intelligant descisions and play the game on it;s own.

a macro is a usefull tool that allows you to recoard a series of keystrokes into a single button for example a gaming mouse can have a macro where pressing programable button activates your entire second module rack by pressing alt- f1 2 3 4 5.

macros are advanced keybinds that players use to make up for deficincies in the user interface. they are harmless and because they must be triggered by a user pressing a button they are useless for automating eve.

i cant even use my gaming mouse because ccp made it quite cleare that they are complete idiots who see macros and bots as the same thing


an example of a macro would be a latched keystroke. a latched keystroke says when i press programable button one the mouse will press the f1 key once every 5 seconds till the button is pressed a second time ending the macro. this is usefull for autopiloting allowing a ship to activate the afterburner.

a bot would be the h-bot eve pilot system that program reads the screen and warps to 0 every time completely replacing the autopilot and allowing bot haulers to avoid suicide ganks.


the bot gives the player a unfair advatage by removing the risk of autopilot.

the macro simply allows the ship to reach it's maximum speed when aproaching the gate by activating the afterburner. the second method gives the player no advantage other than making autopilot more efficiant. the ship still warps in at 10km and can still be suicide ganked

the worst problem is that if eve does have a bot detection system a macro is more likley to trigger it with precicly timed keystrokes than a true bot who has countermeasures to randomize it's click timers

it is a real can of worms but there should be allowances made for simple programable hotkeys and other simple macros that do not break the game and serve no purpose other than preventing carple tunnel syndrome due to a crappy interface that people keep asking ccp to fix but it never gets done

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.01 14:25:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Max Kolonko on 01/01/2011 14:29:26
Originally by: Corian Teranos
Edited by: Corian Teranos on 31/12/2010 21:58:22
i get really ****ed off when people start talking about macros as if they are bots. because of you ignorant idiots macros are banned under the same catagory as bots.



The main problem is: Who is to decide where simple macro ends, and where Bot start. The thing is that both - marco and Bot - can interact with the game on the same level, so blocking one (if ever fully accomplished) will block the other, and vice-versa.

Still, the bots also can interact on memory level of client, that macros cant do, since (as you said) they are just series of keystrokes). But one (CCP) have to think about the big picture, and there are as many autoclickers that read pixel colors to identify points on screen where to click (PI clickers, old mining bots and so on) as client breaching automates that play the game by itself (like the one presented in article that opened this whole RMT/MACRO/BOT discusion)

If by blocking bots CCP will also block all kind of macro'es and programs like evemetrcs adn eve-central market extractors, so be it (sorry eve-central, i hope one day CCP will implement market API)

Atra Hasis
Posted - 2011.01.01 20:16:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Atra Hasis on 01/01/2011 20:17:38
What's really sad is that not only has CCP failed to address the problem of botting, but has actually introduced a feature (planetary interaction) that is a perfect scenario for botting. CCP this is an EPIC FAIL. You seem to be more interested in distracting people with new things (of doubtless quality) than actually fixing existing problems (Lag/Botting).

I have spoken my peace. I am done, back to my mining.

I love EVE

Jabba Miner
Posted - 2011.01.01 21:11:00 - [11]
 

Botters are some small percentage of active players. CCP create content for players, and as such one or the other can be operated by macroes, if it is simple enough that you can operate it with simple repetitive clicking without thinking like the PI You showed as example.

And content need to be easily accessible and controllable otherwise you will get to solve quantum equations before boarding the ship, just to opose possible macroes (well, bot will probably solve that equation easily that player, but i think you get what i meant there).

The main concern is fighting possibility to interact automatically with game. That what i think at least.

Corian Teranos
Caldari
Joint Espionage and Defence Industries
Preatoriani
Posted - 2011.01.01 23:14:00 - [12]
 

give players the ability to sell stacks of multiple items with a single click and allow autopilot to interact with afterburners. fix these 2 simple issues with the game and i will gladly stop defending macros.

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.02 10:13:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Corian Teranos
give players the ability to sell stacks of multiple items with a single click...


signed

Originally by: Corian Teranos
...and allow autopilot to interact with afterburners


NOT signed. Thats exactly the reason why I dont care if macroes dies along with bots.

Atra Hasis
Posted - 2011.01.05 18:06:00 - [14]
 

I am convinced that CCP does have a way of dealing with the bots since they have done it before (on a much smaller scale), they just refuse to do so. The reason they wont is twofold. First bots are still accounts and CCP wants to show off how many accounts subscribe to the game and they want the cluster to be as populated as possible (Waiting on busting through 70,000). Second, people are right and Bots are possibly the largest producer of minerals in the game. So what would happen if CCP removed all bots? The mineral market would tank due to lack of supply, and prices would shoot up like crazy, prices would skyrocket. Now this is not really a problem for existing players who have seen astronomically high prices, but those high prices were back in 2005 when everyone had low skills, now its 2011 and people have brawndo skills.

CCP does not want to dump brand new players into an environment where prices are through the roof and where other players have an 8 year advantage against them. While neither problem presents itself as major to us current players, to a new player it could seem like swimming with sharks in the middle of the pacific.

Of course if botters were done away with, then mining would become an extremely profitable profession once again.

CCP is a business and they are smart, they know existing players don't care enough to leave, so they will focus on getting new players in.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.01.05 19:35:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 05/01/2011 19:35:44
Originally by: Atra Hasis
Second, people are right and Bots are possibly the largest producer of minerals in the game. So what would happen if CCP removed all bots?


All they'd need to do is bring back the NPC buy & sell orders as a relief valve. Let NPCs buy & sell the 8 minerals, ice products & P0 PI goods with the price control slider in the hands of the good Dr E. so he can adjust price caps & floors as required to keep the economy from grinding to a halt.

A broad price bracket like: Jita Trit [email protected] [email protected] would allow for some pretty dramatic price swings before the NPCs kicked in. As long as things are working, then the player economy will continue without the NPCs as it does today. If moving numbers start getting close to a cap, the economic team can look at why and decide if they should let the NPCs catch the price, or if the fundamentals are sound and the price cap needs to be moved. If the sky starts falling or the floor blows up, the NPCs can catch the pieces, contain the damage & keep the game from choking on its greatest feature until CCP can put EvE back on track.

Atra Hasis
Posted - 2011.01.05 20:04:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 05/01/2011 19:35:44
Originally by: Atra Hasis
Second, people are right and Bots are possibly the largest producer of minerals in the game. So what would happen if CCP removed all bots?


All they'd need to do is bring back the NPC buy & sell orders as a relief valve. Let NPCs buy & sell the 8 minerals, ice products & P0 PI goods with the price control slider in the hands of the good Dr E. so he can adjust price caps & floors as required to keep the economy from grinding to a halt.

A broad price bracket like: Jita Trit [email protected] [email protected] would allow for some pretty dramatic price swings before the NPCs kicked in. As long as things are working, then the player economy will continue without the NPCs as it does today. If moving numbers start getting close to a cap, the economic team can look at why and decide if they should let the NPCs catch the price, or if the fundamentals are sound and the price cap needs to be moved. If the sky starts falling or the floor blows up, the NPCs can catch the pieces, contain the damage & keep the game from choking on its greatest feature until CCP can put EvE back on track.



Very true. But then those that are convinced that EVE is a player run economy will cry when they realize CCP is directly interfering (which they do anyways now)

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.01.05 20:24:00 - [17]
 

@Atra Hasis

Speaking only for myself, I'd rather have a player driven economy with NPC safety nets on core products than a bot driven economy that floats free.

Sinikka Huiputti
Posted - 2011.01.07 21:26:00 - [18]
 

They should at least remove clickfests like mining and PI so there would be no pressing need for mining bots or pi bots. :F Whole mining and PI mechanics can be too easily exploited if you can just leave your client on and clickityclick.

In case of mining it just doesn't require enough effort it would be much more fun to find a rich asteroid and mine it out fast than just wait x hours.

In PI case it just doesn't make sense you need to clickityclick constantly to create "passive" income. If you need to click it is not passive income.

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.08 20:47:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Max Kolonko on 08/01/2011 20:48:07
Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti

In case of mining it just doesn't require enough effort it would be much more fun to find a rich asteroid and mine it out fast than just wait x hours.



I like that direction, maybe CCP can think of some new way of finding resources for gathering, that would require some "human interaction" - something like scanning (when will we see those comets we heard about for such a long time?), something like gas mining, but without the boring part of spending half an hour on site. The new sites could replace the old gravimetrics.

Those sites would obviously had too reappear in new place after mined (like other mini-profession sites), and the ammount of minerals avaible on active sites have to corespond with amount of minerals avaible on asteroid fields (so, a lot of sites, that have significant yield, in short time).

The fun part would be the fact, that when a lot of players mine in one system it would shortly be depleted from resources, so miners have to move to next system, and next system... (since the site respawns in different system)

It would all come to calculating reward/time ration of current mining so it is unchanged (or higher, since it may reduce botting hopefully). Lets say that today it takes 1 hours to mine 20m worth of mins (for the sake of argument, i dont know the real isk value for mining)

so, if a player would have to spend 5-10 minutes to find a site, and than only 15-20 minutes on site itself he should make something close to 10m.

Since scanners can find sites in like 30 seconds (it happens often with 7-probe scanning) the would have to be some twist for finding those sites, maybe instead of scaning to 100% you can only scan to "theoretical 100%", warp to 0km, launch some "mining scanner" that would have some 2 minutes or so scaning time to get the actual site location. (it would also add the thrill of racing with other miners to get to the site fast.

There are a lot of complications with this:
- the problem with scanning of those sites by miners with combat probes (on the other hand, why not? with huge yield before they get to the site you can have half or so mined, and there can be sig radius reduction while on site maybe to make it harder?)
- problem with getting today miners to suddenly learn new skills just so they can mine. (maybe "mining probe" would be available using today mining skills, they would still have to learn scanning, but they could just get BM's to "theoretical 100%" from friendly scanning player on day one)
- and many more, some that i dont even realise yet :P

(wow, and i planed it for a short response, but got carried away with this idea :P)

Quote:

In PI case it just doesn't make sense you need to clickityclick constantly to create "passive" income. If you need to click it is not passive income.



Well, i don't remember them saying its a passive income :P

with incursion you will be able to set up 2 week internals, thats pretty passive

Pith Invader
Posted - 2011.01.09 00:36:00 - [20]
 

walls of text

Maximum Kiely
Caldari
Kiely and Son Salvage
Posted - 2011.01.10 18:25:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
@Atra Hasis

Speaking only for myself, I'd rather have a player driven economy with NPC safety nets...


When you think of it, that's sort of the way it works in RL Wink

missminer69
Posted - 2011.01.11 11:15:00 - [22]
 

I believe that all manufacturable goos are over supplied from the raw material side.

The game has changed so much over the last few years that macro mining and botting is the only real way to make ISK.

A lot of the high risk activities of playing the game are now not worth it, e.g. reaction pos. they require high investment but give low return. Manufacturing is the same.

Ildryn
Posted - 2011.01.14 03:54:00 - [23]
 

Place Russians and the Chinese on their own server instance. Allow them to rmt to each other.
No longer worry about rmt in EVE.

Everything will cost more. And may get a bit crazy. But like always we will adapt and eventually prices will stabilize.
High sec mining will be worth as much as mission running.
Destroy bots by injecting code into the server/client that makes botting impossible.

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.14 17:24:00 - [24]
 

of all the problems in eve botting rates so far down the ****ing list it makes walking in stations seem relevant.

Intar Medris
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.01.15 22:54:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti
They should at least remove clickfests like mining and PI so there would be no pressing need for mining bots or pi bots. :F Whole mining and PI mechanics can be too easily exploited if you can just leave your client on and clickityclick.

In case of mining it just doesn't require enough effort it would be much more fun to find a rich asteroid and mine it out fast than just wait x hours.

In PI case it just doesn't make sense you need to clickityclick constantly to create "passive" income. If you need to click it is not passive income.



I like my mining thank you.


Artisan Botanist
Minmatar
Hysteria Nexus
Posted - 2011.01.23 22:24:00 - [26]
 

In the CSM minutes, CCP states "AFK Cloaking is lame" so im thinking AFK Cloaking will be fixed, the problem is this was kind of our only counter to botters.

Eden Love
Posted - 2011.02.01 10:22:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Eden Love on 01/02/2011 10:22:36
So why cant people play the game not as it is supposed to be?

Without bots - without Macros?

They all have an unfair advantage to all casual players. It makes no sense to play the game in a normal fashion. The macros and bots take away profit from normal players.

I read about the idea about random menus and buttons. This would kick out most macros and bots.

I hear more and more about macros and bots. the Bot scene is big and makes up a significant part of eve. They cheat the game.

This has to end or ccp has to allow bots for everyone.
I have 3 alts which I pay with real money. If CCP doesnt do anything against bots I may cancel my subs.
You hear from ccp now and then in threads but their silence in threads regarding botting is defeating.

Its also our game! Lets clear it from the bots and macro users. Let us keep this topic up until it is solved!!

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2011.02.02 07:32:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Larkonis Trassler on 02/02/2011 07:32:49
Originally by: Corian Teranos
Edited by: Corian Teranos on 31/12/2010 21:58:22
i get really ****ed off when people start talking about macros as if they are bots. because of you ignorant idiots macros are banned under the same catagory as bots.

...BAAWWWWW...



Pretty sure that you can use macros on a gaming mouse or keyboard. Not sure about latched keystrokes, just put a book or something on your F1 Key.

Reference botting in general for non RMT purposes. People do it because they don't want to waste time making ISK, either because they don't have the time or because... well, it's bloody dull. There needs to be a fundamental shakeup of all PvE content to make botting hard and the activities themselves more interesting. A mass banning won't do anyone any good.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.02.03 17:08:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Maximum Kiely
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
@Atra Hasis

Speaking only for myself, I'd rather have a player driven economy with NPC safety nets...


When you think of it, that's sort of the way it works in RL Wink


Capitalism will always survive, because socialism will be there to save it ;)


 

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