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Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 15:40:00 - [1]
 

Before I begin allow me to first say that I am not a nay-sayer. I am just curious as to peoples thoughts on the efficiency of the Skill training system.

I am always seeing a debate here or there about how efficient or inefficient the Eve Online skill system is, and to be honest I am pretty torn. I like the idea of a time based skill system, however I also see how investing too much time into something is just counter productive.

So I was just curious if anyone has ever pondered on possible alternatives to increase skill training speed or make the skill system more efficient, minus the use of learning sills of course, which is a moot argument either way due to their erasure from the game coming soon.

I'll start with a thought that swept across my mind during the writing of this topic. To me, the skill system is not enough. I only tolerate it because I am fascinated with trying to better my in game characters utility. I like the sensation of hearing the, "Skill training complete" notification. However I also dislike the waiting period. I see alot of skills that can take more than 30 days or so to complete to level 5. Although I understand the reasoning behind the time for such a skill, I also agree that it is a bit excessive.

In lieu of this, my thought was, 'What if Skill training could be augmented temporarily, or skill points given as a reward?'
Lets use mission running for example. You get bounties, and loyalty points for successfully completing missions, but what if after so many missions you were given so many skill points to allocate to wherever you wanted? Now this wouldnt be a large sum of SP, but enough to encourage players to engage the game more actively. I always hear of people setting up their queue with 2 weeks of training at which point they'll be gone until training is complete or something to that effect.

I am not a very experienced player within the Eve universe, so I understand how broken this system could potentially be, however, it is just an idea, which is very open to discussion.

trollerii
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.12.06 15:59:00 - [2]
 

EVE is a unique game in the skill evolving department. Either you have this kind, you have the kind you suggest that every single other MMO has (XP for questing) or you find out some other alternative. Let EVE be EVE, there is a gazillion other games with the feature you suggest and if someone got a third overhaul of the whole skill learning system, why not create a completely new game that use that as it's feature? There are more or less 400.000 gamers that actually enjoy this system. With the system we got it rewards the patient, and you don't really need to think about your evolving. You can focus on playing the game instead of all the skilling and training because that isn't something you can do much about (except remaps and implants).

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:07:00 - [3]
 

Grind for isk.
Wait for skills.


Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:10:00 - [4]
 

Remove medical clones and let the agressors share half the SP the victim lost. Twisted Evil

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:11:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: trollerii
EVE is a unique game in the skill evolving department. Either you have this kind, you have the kind you suggest that every single other MMO has (XP for questing) or you find out some other alternative. Let EVE be EVE, there is a gazillion other games with the feature you suggest and if someone got a third overhaul of the whole skill learning system, why not create a completely new game that use that as it's feature? There are more or less 400.000 gamers that actually enjoy this system. With the system we got it rewards the patient, and you don't really need to think about your evolving. You can focus on playing the game instead of all the skilling and training because that isn't something you can do much about (except remaps and implants).


Very well said, however if I may remark on your post for a moment here.

Games have to adapt with their player base. To me it is absolutely amazing that CCP is capable of financially supporting this game with its limited player base and the use of mechanics such as buying PLEX.

Please make note that I am not bashing Eve or your post. I am just pointing out that there is always room for improvement. I believe the Walking in Stations system to be a HUGE improvement on the gameplay aspects of this game. Eve is a very specific genre of game, much different than most of its MMO counterparts, but even the most successful of MMOs need to adapt with their players in order to keep their attention.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:15:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ehrghiez
Now this wouldnt be a large sum of SP, but enough to encourage players to engage the game more actively.
No. It would only encourage people to grind a rather particular kind of pointless inactivity that detracts from actually playing the game.

The EVE skill system has one unique feature: it lets you play the game and at the same time "progress", unlike pretty much every other game where you progress by playing the game. This might seem like pointless semantics, but there a very important difference hidden in all of that, which makes EVE an actual game.

They tried what you are hinting at once in the past. It only caused people to stop playing EVE and instead engaging in thoroughly un-EVE:ish activity that disconnected them from the actual gameplay EVE offered. Here, gameplay isn't the same thing as progress, and if you want to simply play the "progress game", then EVE isn't for you. This isn't any kind of accusation or put-down it's just how the game differs from other MMOs, much in the same way The Sims differs from Modern Warfare 2. EVE doesn't need a play-to-progress mechaninc in much the same way as MW2 doesn't need a delete-the-pool-steps-as-punishment-for-your-sims-buying-pizza-with-the-last-petty-cash mechanic.

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:16:00 - [7]
 

While its fresh in my mind here. I understand the experience system and how eve does not share in its mechanics aside from player specific experience. What I mean by that is you're character doesn't grow from experiences, but the player him/herself does.

This is great and all, but I see no harm in implementing a system to award active players in their character growth endeavors, especially if it is on a very small, capable scale.

I admit that there are times where I view the amount of time it is going to take to train a skill and get discouraged. Not because of the mechanic, but because of being at the mercy of time itself and not being able to do anything about it but wait.

trollerii
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:22:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ehrghiez
Originally by: trollerii
EVE is a unique game in the skill evolving department. Either you have this kind, you have the kind you suggest that every single other MMO has (XP for questing) or you find out some other alternative. Let EVE be EVE, there is a gazillion other games with the feature you suggest and if someone got a third overhaul of the whole skill learning system, why not create a completely new game that use that as it's feature? There are more or less 400.000 gamers that actually enjoy this system. With the system we got it rewards the patient, and you don't really need to think about your evolving. You can focus on playing the game instead of all the skilling and training because that isn't something you can do much about (except remaps and implants).


Very well said, however if I may remark on your post for a moment here.

Games have to adapt with their player base. To me it is absolutely amazing that CCP is capable of financially supporting this game with its limited player base and the use of mechanics such as buying PLEX.

Please make note that I am not bashing Eve or your post. I am just pointing out that there is always room for improvement. I believe the Walking in Stations system to be a HUGE improvement on the gameplay aspects of this game. Eve is a very specific genre of game, much different than most of its MMO counterparts, but even the most successful of MMOs need to adapt with their players in order to keep their attention.


Yes, it might have to adapt to the gamers, but not to every single one coming in here whining about skill system (I'm not saying you whine about it, there have been far worse people, for example those that don't have a suggestion at all :p). I think you could adapt it if the majority of the accounts created 6 months or more started to demand something, but usually it's the 2-3 weeks accounts that either have skilled too much learning or the ones that just started their first V, engineering/electronics for example without the learning skills at all and sees that it takes 6 days to complete.

And yes, I don't see it how they go around financially with all the PLEXes lying around everywhere. :)

A last one: I noticed and I hope you notice how I'm NOT trolling your post, even though my name suggests I might have done so. ;)

trollerii
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:24:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Ehrghiez
I admit that there are times where I view the amount of time it is going to take to train a skill and get discouraged. Not because of the mechanic, but because of being at the mercy of time itself and not being able to do anything about it but wait.


I hear ya, I'm on the verge to start going for an archon, which means I gotta chose either Amarr BS V, Leadership V, Cap rep/logi skills IV or Drone interfacing V.. it's a real PITA =)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:26:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Ehrghiez
see no harm in implementing a system to award active players in their character growth endeavors
Again: it promotes not actually playing the game, but rather doing pointless tasks that leads nowhere and provides all the wrong lessons, thus making the extra SP extra worthless.

That's about as harmful as it could possibly get: make people do the exact wrong thing and "progress" in the exact opposite direction of improving their gaming experience.

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:36:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: trollerii
Originally by: Ehrghiez
Originally by: trollerii
EVE is a unique game in the skill evolving department. Either you have this kind, you have the kind you suggest that every single other MMO has (XP for questing) or you find out some other alternative. Let EVE be EVE, there is a gazillion other games with the feature you suggest and if someone got a third overhaul of the whole skill learning system, why not create a completely new game that use that as it's feature? There are more or less 400.000 gamers that actually enjoy this system. With the system we got it rewards the patient, and you don't really need to think about your evolving. You can focus on playing the game instead of all the skilling and training because that isn't something you can do much about (except remaps and implants).


Very well said, however if I may remark on your post for a moment here.

Games have to adapt with their player base. To me it is absolutely amazing that CCP is capable of financially supporting this game with its limited player base and the use of mechanics such as buying PLEX.

Please make note that I am not bashing Eve or your post. I am just pointing out that there is always room for improvement. I believe the Walking in Stations system to be a HUGE improvement on the gameplay aspects of this game. Eve is a very specific genre of game, much different than most of its MMO counterparts, but even the most successful of MMOs need to adapt with their players in order to keep their attention.


Yes, it might have to adapt to the gamers, but not to every single one coming in here whining about skill system (I'm not saying you whine about it, there have been far worse people, for example those that don't have a suggestion at all :p). I think you could adapt it if the majority of the accounts created 6 months or more started to demand something, but usually it's the 2-3 weeks accounts that either have skilled too much learning or the ones that just started their first V, engineering/electronics for example without the learning skills at all and sees that it takes 6 days to complete.

And yes, I don't see it how they go around financially with all the PLEXes lying around everywhere. :)

A last one: I noticed and I hope you notice how I'm NOT trolling your post, even though my name suggests I might have done so. ;)


Haha, I didn't for a second view your post as trolling. As much as I enjoy a nice debate (provided I am knowledgeable enough) I dont feel I contain enough information to successfully debate any subject regarding Eve. I merely wanted to see what other people had to think in terms of possible improvement mechanics.

However, I must add. My suggestion could simply be the very definition of the apocalypse for Eve (no, not the amarrian ship) but the slow deterioration of Eve, or it could simply be viewed as a mild improvement under the right mechanics.

Like I noted, a small boost to help cant be a bad thing. Especially if only so much could be awarded within a specific period of time or per skill/skill level.

Though I very much appreciate the feedback on this subject, I *would* like to see other players ideas of improvements =).



Matalino
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:51:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: trollerii
And yes, I don't see it how they go around financially with all the PLEXes lying around everywhere. :)
You mean aside from the fact that PLEX's are only created when CCP gets paid?

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 17:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: trollerii
And yes, I don't see it how they go around financially with all the PLEXes lying around everywhere. :)
You mean aside from the fact that PLEX's are only created when CCP gets paid?


Thats a good point. I didn't even think about that. Despite that, Eve still has a VERY small player base compared to some larger MMOs which I am sure could cause financial issues in the future if adaptations aren't made.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.06 17:38:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ehrghiez
Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: trollerii
And yes, I don't see it how they go around financially with all the PLEXes lying around everywhere. :)
You mean aside from the fact that PLEX's are only created when CCP gets paid?


Thats a good point. I didn't even think about that. Despite that, Eve still has a VERY small player base compared to some larger MMOs which I am sure could cause financial issues in the future if adaptations aren't made.


small compared to who?
WOW? Well every MMO is small compared to them.

You are confusing small with niche.
Take away what it is that makes EVE a niche game and you will no longer have EVE.

Having a time-based skill plan forces you to make choices. You are advocating removing that choice altogether. Not smart and not EVE.

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 17:54:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Riedle
Originally by: Ehrghiez
Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: trollerii
And yes, I don't see it how they go around financially with all the PLEXes lying around everywhere. :)
You mean aside from the fact that PLEX's are only created when CCP gets paid?


Thats a good point. I didn't even think about that. Despite that, Eve still has a VERY small player base compared to some larger MMOs which I am sure could cause financial issues in the future if adaptations aren't made.


small compared to who?
WOW? Well every MMO is small compared to them.

You are confusing small with niche.
Take away what it is that makes EVE a niche game and you will no longer have EVE.

Having a time-based skill plan forces you to make choices. You are advocating removing that choice altogether. Not smart and not EVE.


As I had noted before, everything is capable of being improved upon. Even a niche mechanic. The point of the discussion was to see what other players thought as possible improvements.

I agree that Eve is a niche game, but remain unconvinced that my suggestion would ruin Eve. I am not a dev, or a long time player, so using my limited basis of information I don't see how it is a bad thing to allow players the ability to avoid being at the *complete* mercy of time.

The problem with being a Niche game is the need to adapt. There is no doubt that CCPs primary goal is financial gain, otherwise Eve wouldn't have been more than a few brain neurons short of an idea.

I disagree that a suggestion such as the one I have made would remove choice. On the contrary I believe it would expand on player choices. I am not suggesting that you get SP per kill, or per mission, trade, etc. but instead the ability to shorten skill training times by a small, and I mean very small percentage.

Yes, Eve is a niche game. It is a great game and I love it, however I as well as CCP, are not so blind to the competition that exists out there.

Eve exists because of people who aren't swayed by instant gratification. Thats alot to ask when you are requiring that someone, somewhere needs to pay a monthly fee to use your product. Once again I am sure CCP realizes this.

I am not advocating the destruction of Eve. I am in favor of improving an already existing product.


Coyopa
Posted - 2010.12.06 17:59:00 - [16]
 

Now I'm happy!!!

See what CCP did?

All newbs were crying all over the forum: "Get rid of learning skills!!!, Get rid of learning skills!!!, Get rid of learning skills!!!".
Then CCP decided to listen to them.

Now they want a method to obtain SP from LPs or from some other thing. Actually they want SP reward just because they play the game...

This will come back to bite you, CCP! oooh, it will!

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 18:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Coyopa
Now I'm happy!!!

See what CCP did?

All newbs were crying all over the forum: "Get rid of learning skills!!!, Get rid of learning skills!!!, Get rid of learning skills!!!".
Then CCP decided to listen to them.

Now they want a method to obtain SP from LPs or from some other thing. Actually they want SP reward just because they play the game...

This will come back to bite you, CCP! oooh, it will!



Enlighten me for a moment here, but how does a company lose by listening to a majority populace?

Taking away for the moment that you are clearly trolling and haven't read a single thing on this topic I'll remain punctual. The point of this was nothing more than mere game improvement suggestions in regards but not limited to Skill training.

Game improvements will happen. There is no way around it. Not everyone will like it, but I can guarantee the majority of players will because a large percentage of people would like to see it in the product. Without customers you have nothing to sell, which brings me to my next point. Noobs.

Argue it all you want, but New players run the direction of this game. Without new players Eve would be nothing more than a stagnant oasis for those who have settled. Which means smaller budgets for CCP and less content for staying players who in the end will eventually leave to find something of value.

People want to be rewarded for their monetary investments. I.E.- they want a product that delivers. Otherwise there is no sense in paying for something that has little to no personal gain. So, no, players do not want to be rewarded for simply playing a game. They want to be rewarded for paying for said game.

Coyopa
Posted - 2010.12.06 19:23:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Ehrghiez


Enlighten me for a moment here, but how does a company lose by listening to a majority populace?




OK, let's say you are right.

So, in a short while, all new players will complain they are too far behind older players. And they will ask for a, let's say, X mil starting SP. What should CCP do. Listen to them?

Don't get me wrong, I am happy that I'll get my learning SP to invest in whatever I want.

But, in my opinion this is not a good thing in the long run for CCP. This is easy money for them as surely there will be an increase in subscription now. However, new players, instead of learning also game mechanics while learning to learn, they will jump in ships without knowing how to properly fly. And they will loose those ships. And they will be frustrated and they will complain about that on the forum. And then they will blame the SP difference between them and older players, among ather things.

So, again, I don't think this is good in the long run for CCP.

Hooligan Tool
Awww Diddums..
Posted - 2010.12.06 19:38:00 - [19]
 

You can either have the skill system the way it is now, completely passive whether you actually have time to play or not...

OR

Like every other MMO, grinding away while you 'play', but not progressing when you're not logged in.

You cannot be fair to a majority of the players with a hybrid system. Some players will find a way to exploit it and grind away 24/7, thus gaining advantage by passively training and actively grinding all the time. Other players will like the game, but not be able to log in very often, and will be discouraged by their extremely slow progress. Now that we're getting rid of the 'train skills to train skills faster' grind, we're at an all-time fairness high. Your idea would bring that crashing down even lower than when the learning skills mattered.

We already grind for ISK. EVE does not need more grinding.

Shawn Pierce
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.12.06 19:45:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Hooligan Tool
You can either have the skill system the way it is now, completely passive whether you actually have time to play or not...

OR

Like every other MMO, grinding away while you 'play', but not progressing when you're not logged in.

You cannot be fair to a majority of the players with a hybrid system. Some players will find a way to exploit it and grind away 24/7, thus gaining advantage by passively training and actively grinding all the time. Other players will like the game, but not be able to log in very often, and will be discouraged by their extremely slow progress. Now that we're getting rid of the 'train skills to train skills faster' grind, we're at an all-time fairness high. Your idea would bring that crashing down even lower than when the learning skills mattered.

We already grind for ISK. EVE does not need more grinding.

I agree with this. I'm new here, and they're making a big change to the skill system already. Let that stabilize a bit and see what comes of it before suggesting another radical change like XP grinding from other MMOs.

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 19:51:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Coyopa
Originally by: Ehrghiez


Enlighten me for a moment here, but how does a company lose by listening to a majority populace?




OK, let's say you are right.

So, in a short while, all new players will complain they are too far behind older players. And they will ask for a, let's say, X mil starting SP. What should CCP do. Listen to them?

Don't get me wrong, I am happy that I'll get my learning SP to invest in whatever I want.

But, in my opinion this is not a good thing in the long run for CCP. This is easy money for them as surely there will be an increase in subscription now. However, new players, instead of learning also game mechanics while learning to learn, they will jump in ships without knowing how to properly fly. And they will loose those ships. And they will be frustrated and they will complain about that on the forum. And then they will blame the SP difference between them and older players, among ather things.

So, again, I don't think this is good in the long run for CCP.


You're absolutely right. I agree with you 100% on that. The problem right now is that new players are already complaining that they are too far behind older players. Older players have worked hard to get where they are at and fully deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labors, but one has to remember that this game doesn't just revolve around them.

In order to keep Eve afloat, CCP has to find ways to keep old players as well as new players happy. Thats no easy task due to the Skill system. The Skill system as nice as it is, is also what prevents alot of people from playing this game. With that being said, how does one improve on something such as this?

If CCP turns the game into an experience based mechanic, they lose some players and gain some more. Players can rise to power much quicker and with their own time. If they keep it the way it is they cater to a very small percentage of people. Looking at it this way, its obvious to see you cant change the mechanic too much.

As I've mentioned before that is bad for a company who's primary goal is money. Niche marketing can be good for awhile, but that is far worse in the long run as you're customer base slowly grows bored or frustrated with it.

My suggestion is nothing more than what I personally would think to be a generally decent idea. It has its flaws, but lets be realistic. The current system is not much better. Not if you are trying to expand your player base.

Taking a few steps back, you are absolutely right about players not taking the time to learn to pilot their ships properly. An experienced based system alone for this game is monstrously bad, but lets say you could *earn* say, up to 10% per skill level in a skill or something to that nature. That would still allow the time based mechanic to function, at the same time as not burden players with the frustration of looking at a 35 day timer tick down. Its demoralizing.

For me to train Gallente Frigate from 4 to 5, its going to take just shy of two weeks. 12 days, 8 hours and 56 minutes to be more exact. Ok fair enough. I have to *earn* the right to pilot this Assault Frigate, but would it really hurt if I could do something myself to slightly shorten that span of time by 10% at the very most? Thats just more than a third of the month that one would pay for. Including the fittings and skill requirements for those as well, etc.

I can guarantee that 99% of newer players out there saw skills that would take more than a month to learn and probably got a little demoralized by it because there was absolutely nothing they could do about the time constraints other than dragging it into their training queue.

As I've noted, the Skill training mechanic is not a bad mechanic. Its just bad for long term profit.

Eve is a beautiful game, but is always capable of being improved upon.

I doubt that the Eve subscription will increase. Marketing 101. Their goal is to increase subscriptions, not subscription prices.

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:01:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Ehrghiez on 06/12/2010 20:03:03
Originally by: Shawn Pierce
Originally by: Hooligan Tool
You can either have the skill system the way it is now, completely passive whether you actually have time to play or not...

OR

Like every other MMO, grinding away while you 'play', but not progressing when you're not logged in.

You cannot be fair to a majority of the players with a hybrid system. Some players will find a way to exploit it and grind away 24/7, thus gaining advantage by passively training and actively grinding all the time. Other players will like the game, but not be able to log in very often, and will be discouraged by their extremely slow progress. Now that we're getting rid of the 'train skills to train skills faster' grind, we're at an all-time fairness high. Your idea would bring that crashing down even lower than when the learning skills mattered.

We already grind for ISK. EVE does not need more grinding.

I agree with this. I'm new here, and they're making a big change to the skill system already. Let that stabilize a bit and see what comes of it before suggesting another radical change like XP grinding from other MMOs.


I agree with it too. However I wasn't suggesting exp grinding. Theres nothing more irritating (to me at least) than to want to fit a module but discover you require a 35 day training period before you can use it. What I am saying is that I see absolutely no harm in a mechanic that allows players to reduce that training time by a small percent by allowing the player to use his/her own time to work for it.

Something like this wouldn't need to be solely subjugated to missioning. If something took you 50,000 SP to train to the next level I am sure it would be nice to be able to knock off 5k SP by your own hands. Thats still 45k SP that you have to wait for, but it would give players something they could work toward and earn by their own means aside from time.

Im just reiterating, but I enjoy Eve. Its a great game. I understand how frustrating it can be to a new player. Especially when you sit down and think about paying to wait.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:24:00 - [23]
 


Quote:
As I had noted before, everything is capable of being improved upon. Even a niche mechanic. The point of the discussion was to see what other players thought as possible improvements.


I agree but your idea as it were, is not an improvement. That's what I am saying.

Quote:
I agree that Eve is a niche game, but remain unconvinced that my suggestion would ruin Eve. I am not a dev, or a long time player, so using my limited basis of information I don't see how it is a bad thing to allow players the ability to avoid being at the *complete* mercy of time.


Giving out learning skills for doing an activity in the game WOULD ruin the game. Why?
Because not matter what activity it was or how small the learning reward to do it was it would fundamentally change the game from doing what you want to doing stuff so you can get more skillpoints. That is wrongheaded and just dumb. EVE is about interaction. Maybe because you are new to the game you don't understand that yet - but it doesn't make you any less wrong wrt to this 'idea'.

Quote:
The problem with being a Niche game is the need to adapt. There is no doubt that CCPs primary goal is financial gain, otherwise Eve wouldn't have been more than a few brain neurons short of an idea.


I agree. I'm just saying that your idea is a bad one. Being against your grinding for skill points doesn't mean I am against EVE changing. I just want it to progress in a positive manner, not a negative one.

Quote:
I disagree that a suggestion such as the one I have made would remove choice. On the contrary I believe it would expand on player choices. I am not suggesting that you get SP per kill, or per mission, trade, etc. but instead the ability to shorten skill training times by a small, and I mean very small percentage.


Right.. So you want to shorten skill training by doing things in game but not things we do already today? See? Your 'idea' has gone from bad to terrible just like that.
Essentially you want to make a mini-game inside of EVE for doing this. That is what you are saying wether you realize it or not.

Quote:
Yes, Eve is a niche game. It is a great game and I love it, however I as well as CCP, are not so blind to the competition that exists out there.


This just in - CCP and me being against the idea of grinding for skillpoints does not make it 'bline to the competition' out there. You, obviously, do not understand EVE yet.

Quote:
Eve exists because of people who aren't swayed by instant gratification. Thats alot to ask when you are requiring that someone, somewhere needs to pay a monthly fee to use your product. Once again I am sure CCP realizes this.


So you want it to be swayed to instant gratification?
I say, when it comes to skills - emphatically NO.
Grinding for skill points is one of the very few things that would drive me and I know a lot of others, to quit this game.

Quote:
I am not advocating the destruction of Eve. I am in favor of improving an already existing product.


You are - you just don't realize it.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:37:00 - [24]
 

Quote:
You're absolutely right. I agree with you 100% on that. The problem right now is that new players are already complaining that they are too far behind older players. Older players have worked hard to get where they are at and fully deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labors, but one has to remember that this game doesn't just revolve around them.


They are? I don't see it? I see you complaining in a roundabout way and that's it.

Quote:
In order to keep Eve afloat, CCP has to find ways to keep old players as well as new players happy. Thats no easy task due to the Skill system. The Skill system as nice as it is, is also what prevents alot of people from playing this game. With that being said, how does one improve on something such as this?


They already improved on it by getting rid of the learning skills which were an undue hardship on new players. But even WITH that EVE's subscriptions have been climbing, steadily, for YEARS. Almost unique in the MMO universe. Yet you are here to tell us and CCP that CCP should be doing something like the other, less successfull MMO's do it. lol

Quote:
If CCP turns the game into an experience based mechanic, they lose some players and gain some more. Players can rise to power much quicker and with their own time. If they keep it the way it is they cater to a very small percentage of people. Looking at it this way, its obvious to see you cant change the mechanic too much.


It is obvious that you are ignorant of the EVE skill system. You can fly a tackle ship in a short amount of time equally as well (skill point wise) to a 7 year vet of EVE. You just can't have access to all the shinies right from the start and that is how it should be.

Quote:
As I've mentioned before that is bad for a company who's primary goal is money. Niche marketing can be good for awhile, but that is far worse in the long run as you're customer base slowly grows bored or frustrated with it.


Again you are wrong. EVE's subscription history is widely available. I suggest you look it up and educate yourself.

Quote:
My suggestion is nothing more than what I personally would think to be a generally decent idea. It has its flaws, but lets be realistic. The current system is not much better. Not if you are trying to expand your player base.


Your auggestion is worse and EVE has been expanding its player base for 7 years now.
Outside of WOW, show me another that has been this successfull.

Quote:
As I've noted, the Skill training mechanic is not a bad mechanic. Its just bad for long term profit.
Eve is a beautiful game, but is always capable of being improved upon.
I doubt that the Eve subscription will increase. Marketing 101. Their goal is to increase subscriptions, not subscription prices
.

And as I have noted your premise is as wrong as your 'solution'.
Subscriptions have been increasing steadily, for YEARS.

HTFU

Coyopa
Posted - 2010.12.06 21:19:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Ehrghiez

The problem right now is that new players are already complaining that they are too far behind older players.


If the earnings of %SP is based on doing missions or killing FW enemy players or whatever it is, the older players will be by far in advantage as they have much more experience (not always true, but mostly). So this will only create more discrepancy between new players and older ones.

Originally by: Ehrghiez

For me to train Gallente Frigate from 4 to 5, its going to take just shy of two weeks. 12 days, 8 hours and 56 minutes to be more exact. Ok fair enough. I have to *earn* the right to pilot this Assault Frigate, but would it really hurt if I could do something myself to slightly shorten that span of time by 10% at the very most? Thats just more than a third of the month that one would pay for. Including the fittings and skill requirements for those as well, etc.


As far as I can understand you see this time as some sort of punishment. You have to endure the time spent on learning frigate to 5 to "earn" the right to fly a superior ship. I say this can be a well spent time learning how to fly, in a much cheaper ship. Then, when you will finally fly an AF (and you will), you will have better chance to survive in one.

Originally by: Ehrghiez

I doubt that the Eve subscription will increase. Marketing 101. Their goal is to increase subscriptions, not subscription prices.


What I meant was the number of new players will rise. Not the price for subscription.

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 21:33:00 - [26]
 

Riedle - You're productive approach to the subject is as bad as your ability to respect an opinion. If you're so inclined to prove my suggestions wrong based on what you passively suggest is fact, then try a more productive approach and prove it.

Eve subscriptions are rising due to seemingly good market. You have the internet. Google search any random thing and view its home page. I'm willing to bet my subscription that you'll see an Eve online advertisement on every other un-related website.

Had Eve Online initially started with an experience gain system, CCP would never have had near half of the issues they do now with balancing for player fairness. Their subscriptions would be marginally higher than they are now, which in turn means higher profits.

They wanted to try something different, and they did. It worked for some, but turned just as many away. Thats not success.

You can suggest that I 'learn' the game mechanics because your assumption is that I have nowhere near enough experience for an educated decision due to my lack of, well, Eve Education. In turn I'll suggest you go take a crash course in business management and marketing. When you're done you can come back to me and tell me I am completely wrong. In the meantime I'll take note of suggestions that aren't asinine.

In 2009 (just last year) Eve Online had roughly 250,000 active subscriptions and 30,000 trial accounts. How many of those accounts do you think were alt accounts for the same person? I'm sorry, but one person creating multiple accounts isn't expanding Eves universe. Its only furthering to stagnate it.

Here's a brief list of MMOG populations I've pulled from a brief google search for Feb of March of 2010.

World of Warcraft 10,000,000
Runescape 1,250,000
Lineage 1,000,000
Lineage II 1,000,000
Final Fantasy XI 500,000
Dofus 500,000
Eve Online 300,000
Lord of the Rings Online 300,000 (estimate)
Warhammer Online 300,000 (estimate)
Age of Conan 100,000 (estimate)

Ok. So we'll eliminate world of warcraft just to even the playing field and take a look at the rest of the list... Oh wow... Look at that. Runescape. Thats more than 3 times the amount of subscribers and it doesn't offer half of the content that Eve does. I wonder what Runescape is doing that is so wrong... LotR Online... How old is that game? Not half as old as Eve, and I believe its free now. Same population base too.. Hmm..

I only produced these statistics as a rebuttal to your, "Eve online's subscriptions are rapidly growing." If 300,000 over 7 years is a rapid increase than you sir must be the Lance Armstrong of snails. When you consider the cost to advertisement/maintenance, etc ratios, then CCP is most likely making as much money as they did 4 years ago. That sir the opposite of growing. They've probably lost money due to what you seem to think is a great idea. The numbers don't lie. In fact, they are clearly screaming that the current Skill system is a horrible idea. Buuuut, thats just the numbers. Die hard fans of Eve will argue against it. Especially those that have invested enough time to accumulate 100,000,000 SP or more.

For a Niche MMOG 300,000 is a large number. However its nowhere near enough to compete against the competition. Focusing on that word for a moment. Competition is bad when your player base is 1/36th the size of the largest MMOG out there. Competition equals loss of profit. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

With that said, I am not complaining or whining about the mechanics of the game. As I have said in almost every post I've posted on this topic, I have made it abundantly clear that anything can be improved on, including but not limited to the Skill Training system.

If my suggestion is so destructive to the Eve universe than at least try and be a productive troll and produce your own suggestion. So far what your idea on improvement is about as smart as replacing tires with egg crates.








Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 21:49:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Ehrghiez on 06/12/2010 21:49:43
Originally by: Coyopa
Originally by: Ehrghiez

The problem right now is that new players are already complaining that they are too far behind older players.


If the earnings of %SP is based on doing missions or killing FW enemy players or whatever it is, the older players will be by far in advantage as they have much more experience (not always true, but mostly). So this will only create more discrepancy between new players and older ones.

Originally by: Ehrghiez

For me to train Gallente Frigate from 4 to 5, its going to take just shy of two weeks. 12 days, 8 hours and 56 minutes to be more exact. Ok fair enough. I have to *earn* the right to pilot this Assault Frigate, but would it really hurt if I could do something myself to slightly shorten that span of time by 10% at the very most? Thats just more than a third of the month that one would pay for. Including the fittings and skill requirements for those as well, etc.


As far as I can understand you see this time as some sort of punishment. You have to endure the time spent on learning frigate to 5 to "earn" the right to fly a superior ship. I say this can be a well spent time learning how to fly, in a much cheaper ship. Then, when you will finally fly an AF (and you will), you will have better chance to survive in one.

Originally by: Ehrghiez

I doubt that the Eve subscription will increase. Marketing 101. Their goal is to increase subscriptions, not subscription prices.


What I meant was the number of new players will rise. Not the price for subscription.


See these are the kind of replies I enjoy seeing. Thank you Coyopa.

Continuing on. I've noted before that my suggestions is subject to its flaws. I won't deny that by any means, but with the current skill system the way it is, it provides a much greater flaw. Niche gaming. Eve might be a giant in the Niche game industry, but it is still small fry in the grand scheme of things. As a company whos primary goal is money, the Skill system is bad. You don't want a mechanic that turns away more players than those who stay. Its great if you've invested the time and patience, but if you are new to the game, not so much.

Capping the amount of SP a person could hope to gain could be a way of balancing things out in this effect. After you've reached a predesignated amount of SP the ability stops functioning.

I don't see my training times as any sort of punishment. I understand why they are there and for what purpose they serve. The fact that one has to wait in complete powerlessness is what I feel to be unnecessary. I've flown an AF before so I know how fun they are. This isn't my first account, just the one I've kept the longest.

Onto your last sentence. I apologize if I misunderstood. Subscriptions will rise if there is a demand for it, but there has to be a demand. I believe Walking in Stations is the first step into increasing Eve onlines player base. I would like to see this game grow. Maybe get some of my friends to give it a shot. Thats just not a reality right now. I only personally know one other person who plays this game and he is on and off.

My suggestion is nothing more than a benign suggestion, but I appreciate the constructive feedback.

Sub Prime
Posted - 2010.12.06 22:02:00 - [28]
 

Had to laugh at your post - Eve IS a niche market yet you constantly compare it to non niche markets........

Eve isn't in direct competition with any of those mentioned.

(btw, those estimates are way off the mark)

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 22:32:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Sub Prime
Had to laugh at your post - Eve IS a niche market yet you constantly compare it to non niche markets........

Eve isn't in direct competition with any of those mentioned.

(btw, those estimates are way off the mark)


Eve is a Niche market yes, but that doesn't mean that it isn't in competing against other pay to play games. Because of this its always going to be compared. Just because it is a Niche game doesn't shelter it.

Those estimates were for March of 2010. I don't have December of 2010 numbers, so if you do, please kindly share them.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.06 22:54:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
EVE subscriptions are rising due to seemingly good market. You have the internet. Google search any random thing and view its home page. I'm willing to bet my subscription that you'll see an Eve online advertisement on every other un-related website.


Well genius, try googling 'cookies' to see why that is.
For YOU. You are erroneously extrapolating thto everyone that has the internet. (lols) You are seeing those because you came here.

Quote:
Had Eve Online initially started with an experience gain system, CCP would never have had near half of the issues they do now with balancing for player fairness. Their subscriptions would be marginally higher than they are now, which in turn means higher profits.


lol now you are purely speculating with zero facts to back you up.
But really, let's say what you mean here. You don't care how much profits CCP makes - you are whining cause you don't want to wait for your shinies. Admit it.

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They wanted to try something different, and they did. It worked for some, but turned just as many away. Thats not success.


It's not success? lol ok then.

Quote:
You can suggest that I 'learn' the game mechanics because your assumption is that I have nowhere near enough experience for an educated decision due to my lack of, well, Eve Education. In turn I'll suggest you go take a crash course in business management and marketing. When you're done you can come back to me and tell me I am completely wrong. In the meantime I'll take note of suggestions that aren't asinine.


Well, as per above, you have no idea how internet marketing works so fail. I'm already up on you there. lols

Quote:
In 2009 (just last year) Eve Online had roughly 250,000 active subscriptions and 30,000 trial accounts.



EVE now has over 300,000 active accounts lols. you lose, again.



Quote:
I only produced these statistics as a rebuttal to your, "Eve online's subscriptions are rapidly growing." If 300,000 over 7 years is a rapid increase than you sir must be the Lance Armstrong of snails.


Reading comprehension FTL. I never used an adjective. I said it was growing. And guess what? It is and still is.


Quote:
When you consider the cost to advertisement/maintenance, etc ratios, then CCP is most likely making as much money as they did 4 years ago.

Again you are (LOL) assuming that those EVE online ADs appear for everyone like they do for you. LOL they DON'T.

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That sir the opposite of growing. They've probably lost money due to what you seem to think is a great idea.

Wow, you like to make things up eh? neat. lol

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The numbers don't lie
.
You're right, they don't. EVE is still growing. lol

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In fact, they are clearly screaming that the current Skill system is a horrible idea. Buuuut, thats just the numbers. Die hard fans of Eve will argue against it. Especially those that have invested enough time to accumulate 100,000,000 SP or more.


Here we go. See? You don't care about EVE you just want all your precious SP's and are too impatient to wait. That's really only your problem - not mine or EVE's.

Quote:
For a Niche MMOG 300,000 is a large number. However its nowhere near enough to compete against the competition. Competition equals loss of profit. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.


lol you are funny in a stupid kind of way. Either that or I'm being trolled.
Rolling Eyes


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With that said, I am not complaining or whining about the mechanics of the game.

Quite clearly that is the ONLY think you are doing here.

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If my suggestion is so destructive to the Eve universe than at least try and be a productive troll and produce your own suggestion.


I didn't offer any improvement suggestions. I like the skill system the way it is with the learning skills gone.
I just have explained to you why your grinding for skills is a terrible one.


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