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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.06 22:49:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 06/12/2010 22:50:16
"Working as intended" in this case just means "Yeah we didn't think of that at the time".

Its a ****ty mechanic that would have you arrested for fraud in RL. Unfortunately CCP is too busy making 0.0 safer to fix their logic bugs.

Erythorbic Benzoate
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:42:00 - [62]
 

Learn to EVE, honestly. This is a simple scam and a real game mechanic. Don't be mad because you didn't know better, learn so you don't do it again. And instead of making a whining post about "New Low For CCP" as if they made some horrible error, make a scam known to people in other ways so they don't make your mistake.

TL;DR, scams work because people are impatient. Don't be impatient.

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:47:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 06/12/2010 23:47:23
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Its a ****ty mechanic that would have you arrested for fraud in RL.

IRL you can react to a margin call by retracting your orders/closing the position.

Not really that different from Margin Trading in EVE...

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2010.12.07 00:04:00 - [64]
 

And THIS, boys and girls, is why we set up our market filters properly. Not only to filter out the really bad deals, but also the "too good to be true" deals.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.07 00:48:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Its a ****ty mechanic that would have you arrested for fraud in RL.
Yes. Not paying for items not provided and vice versa sure is fraudulent… wait what?

Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
Posted - 2010.12.07 05:28:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Drakarin on 07/12/2010 05:57:51
There's a difference between advocating for scamming (or just not really caring much about it one way or another) and defending an exploit. Creating a fake buy order would only be "working as intended" in the mind of a truly insane player. If you create a buy order, you follow up on that buy order or cancel it. If you don't cancel it, it's valid. I'm not even sure how to replicate what this scammer did, but obviously it's not working as intended.

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058

I did research. I found out it was a worthless rig that I could build for cheap. Thats what I went through with it. What i didn't know was you could put up fake buy orders. The way he set it up, there was no risk on his part. As someone else explained earlier, there is no way the order can be filled, yet it will stay up until someone tries.



If they are buying 10 items and offering 100 mill (minus margin trading), you can sell them those 10 ten items for 3 million each (which means they have enough in escrow to cover the sale.)


Stop complicating things, seriously.

Person wants item A. Buy order is placed WITH the money he is offering in escrow. If no one sells, the money is returned to the player who put up the buy order, if someone fills the order, well, it's filled and that's that.

What is the point in complicating it? It's really simple and that's how it should be. Again, I'm not even sure how this scam could be possible. Is there actually an in-game mechanic to create fake buy orders?

Originally by: Sinister Dextor
Scammers rely on you thinking that you think you are cleverer than them. That's what they offer, not so much the chance of easy isk, but the chance to get one over some 'idiot' who has made a mistake, the chance for you to prove how ;smart' you are. When it backfires, it smarts don't it? It's not the isk, it's your ego is hurting m8, suck it up.


There is no way to detect this scam. That's not being an idiot, that's simply a poor user interface working against the common good of the players.

I'm entirely in favor of standard scams, if someone is too stupid or distracted to see it, they'll learn from the experience. Dog eat dog world. The reason I don't mind these types of scams is simple, it doesn't involve the system itself. There's always a way to detect it if you pay attention. A completely hidden scam is not in the best interests of anyone but a very, very small minority. It doesn't benefit the game at all.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.12.07 07:08:00 - [67]
 

Wow, Drakarin, way to be completely ignorant and wrong about everything you just posted.

The too good to be true scam is a classic. Hey I'll buy magic beans for $100 and I'll sell you magic bean seeds for $20, they take one hour to grow.

One hour later

Sorry I am not in the market for magic beans anymore because I ran out of money but I am really into magic watermelons now.

You got to be kidding me. Both people are trying to pull one over on the other, aka scam each other. Call a spade a spade, there is no intention of a fair trade of items for market value by either person. Since you are both bad scammers we cannot apply any rules or laws to you since you both are in the wrong.

So we just lol at you. L O L. It's what fuels my ships nowadays (gas and plex are pretty expensive these days)

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.07 07:26:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Drakarin
Some words showing he has no idea how margin trading works.


Well, you really did my job for me. Uh, thanks I guess.


LindaSpartan 058
Posted - 2010.12.07 07:48:00 - [69]
 

TO those of you with valid points and well thought out arguments who read the post and contributed something useful, weather for or against my position. I thank you. I learned exactly how the scam works, which is something I did not understand before. I know now there is NO way to fill those orders even if you do have the minimum volume. I now realize it could have been prevented had I researched long enough into scamming to find out there was an exploit, and it is most definitely an exploit, that allows you to put up orders with no intention of them ever being able to be filled.

For you forum trolls who don't bother to read the entire post and say the first thing that comes into your brain as an attempt at insulting me, keep doing what your doing as you are obviously good at nothing else in life which is why you constantly refresh the forum page looking for someone to annoy/insult with the useless garbage that flows from your brain through your keyboard and now has ended up cluttering my forum thread. I realize its probably hard to spend every single night alone with your computer. So if trying to insult me helps you cope with your lonely, useless, sad excuse for a life, I guess I don't blame you for that.

Conrad Lionhart
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.07 08:15:00 - [70]
 

OP you should use an online market site.

http://eve-central.com/

It may help minimize the chances of you getting scammed.

Billy Kidd
Posted - 2010.12.07 14:49:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Conrad Lionhart
OP you should use an online market site.

http://eve-central.com/

It may help minimize the chances of you getting scammed.
Sorry, that doesn't help against this kind of scam, as that site doesn't show whether or not the person behind the buy order has enough money to fulfill the order.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.12.07 14:55:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Drakarin
an exploit
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
and it is most definitely an exploit
I'm sorry, that's not your call.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.07 15:40:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 07/12/2010 15:42:22
Originally by: Drakarin
There is no way to detect this scam.
Riiiight… except for, you know, plenty of people being able to detect it — the OP among them…

It's ridiculously obvious if you know what you're looking at.
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
I know now there is NO way to fill those orders even if you do have the minimum volume.
Yes there is — just not at the price the scammer seems to offer (not that there would be any point to filling them, since that doesn't actually hurt the scammer).
Quote:
it is most definitely an exploit, that allows you to put up orders with no intention of them ever being able to be filled
How is that an exploit? It's how the mechanic is designed, and it's designed that way to protect both you, the buyer, and the seller from making a trade that will cause problems for either of you. Remember, the trick with this scam isn't with the buy order, but with the sell order that lets the scammer cash in.

jerichot
Cutish Brunts
Posted - 2010.12.07 15:59:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
CCP's response

Umad OP?


What was that ? teenagers/college boys wannabe rappers music ?

Tattoo Stan
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:47:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Herping yourDerp
inb4
I BOUGHT A CHEAP FREIGHTOR THEN WHEN I SET DESTINATION IT WAS IN LOWSEC I WENT TO GET IT AND DIED WTFSCAMHAX/QQRAGEQUIT


Cataclysms out man, what yo still doin ere ?

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:51:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Doddy on 07/12/2010 16:52:16
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058


I cannot stress enough that I did not "fall" for the intended scam.


Yes you did, you just thought you were smarter than the scammer when you weren't. This has been a valid and well known scam for a long time. You say there is no way to know the order is fake - but you knew it was clearly a scam and carried on anyway. If you were so sure it was a scam you could easily have come on the forum and looked where you would have found out all about the margin trading scam as well.

Billy Kidd
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:55:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: jerichot
Originally by: Vaal Erit
CCP's response

Umad OP?


What was that ? teenagers/college boys wannabe rappers music ?
Actually, those are CCP developers playing music for you. And those girls in the Shanghai office sure look cute...

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:55:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Doddy on 07/12/2010 17:01:30
Edited by: Doddy on 07/12/2010 16:58:46
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 06/12/2010 22:50:16
"Working as intended" in this case just means "Yeah we didn't think of that at the time".

Its a ****ty mechanic that would have you arrested for fraud in RL. Unfortunately CCP is too busy making 0.0 safer to fix their logic bugs.


No it wouldn't, you can refuse to buy something any time you like in rl, regardless of whether someone has bought stuff in order to sell to you. If there was a contract somewhere it would be different, but there isn't. No-one made the op buy/build the stuff, plus he still has the goods. If he was smart he would sell them to people wanting to use them for scamming. If he built them he can simply reprocess them and he is barely out of pocket at all.

Billy Kidd
Posted - 2010.12.07 17:10:00 - [79]
 

If CCP intended margin trading to be used in this way, then what's weird is that CCP hasn't implemented margin-selling to go along with margin-buying.

You can promise to buy something without putting money down, but you can't promise to sell something without having the items on hand. Since people are arguing that margin-buying "protects" buyers and sellers by ensuring that the buyer and the seller have all terms of the trade before allowing the trade to complete, then why can't the same reasoning be used to justify an equivalent on the sales side of the market?

IE. I want to sell 5 ships for 50m each, but I don't have the last two just yet. Give me the money for the last two now, and I'll get the ships to you ASAP.

Adrian Steel
Caldari
Kabukimono Exploration Syndicate
Greater Realms
Posted - 2011.02.01 14:54:00 - [80]
 

Those who are heckling the OP for not knowing the scam are missing the boat in a big way. Those people who lift offers in order to hit a bid with a large minimum order limit without realizing the size of the minimum order have failed themselves by being inattentive and deserve to reap the incompetency that they have sown. But anyone who consciously and explicitly decides to hit the margin order bid gets boned on poorly conceived game mechanics because the order never transacts.

No established market in the real world has "fake" orders which do not transact. Market participants can "push" on bids and offers by offering quantities they do not intend to purchase or sell in order to manipulate the market (which is against the rules on most exchanges, but happens on a daily basis) but they are left with the consequences if and when a counter-party transacts with their order.

In a real world market, all bids and offers can be transacted against. If the buyer or seller doesn't have the funds to satisfy their bid or offer's counter-party because they placed the order on margin, they owe money to their broker/order clearing firm (escrow). It is not the counter-party that is left with the short end of the stick, but the person who placed an order without having the funds required to fill it.

The problem with current game mechanics is that the market does not provide the transparency that real-world markets enforce: you cannot tell if that outrageous bid's issuer is insolvent or not until you hold the goods required to actively transact against it. A real world market does not care about solvency; all orders can transact. Instead, 3rd party clearing firms deal with solvency issues before and after market transactions occur.

The fake margin bid isn't much of a scam as it is a manipulation of poor game mechanics. A good scam requires suspension of disbelief. The real scam here occurs when the player suspends their disbelief that CCP's conceptualization of a market is actually a neutral, equitable and transparent medium for exchange. If indeed it is "working as intended," the developers are certainly having a good laugh at the expense of those who aren't familiar with their obscure mechanics.

Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Fleet of Doom
Posted - 2011.02.01 15:06:00 - [81]
 

Linda,

You weren't scammed out of anything. You stated you built some items to fill a sell order. You still have those items. The intrinsic value of those items did not change simply because a buy order evaporated. If those items aren't actually worth 45m isk each, then that should've been your first clue...

If somethings sounds too good to be true, it likely is. If you take a gamble to try to make quick cash, well, the risk was your choice. In the case of someone else, not you, that might've bought the items for 40m isk ( I'm assuming they're not worth anywhere near that ) to sell for 45m isk, then that person would've been scammed. But, it's not an exploit still, because even that person could've done his homework, found out the item wasn't worth that, and purchased it somewhere else for cheaper instead of looking for quick easy cash. In fact, looking for quick easy cash is the reason why most people get scammed in the first place. Greed overwhelms, and loss of isk is the result YARRRR!!

Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Fleet of Doom
Posted - 2011.02.01 15:12:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Adrian Steel
Those who are heckling the OP for not knowing the scam are missing the boat in a big way. Those people who lift offers in order to hit a bid with a large minimum order limit without realizing the size of the minimum order have failed themselves by being inattentive and deserve to reap the incompetency that they have sown. But anyone who consciously and explicitly decides to hit the margin order bid gets boned on poorly conceived game mechanics because the order never transacts.

No established market in the real world has "fake" orders which do not transact. Market participants can "push" on bids and offers by offering quantities they do not intend to purchase or sell in order to manipulate the market (which is against the rules on most exchanges, but happens on a daily basis) but they are left with the consequences if and when a counter-party transacts with their order.

In a real world market, all bids and offers can be transacted against. If the buyer or seller doesn't have the funds to satisfy their bid or offer's counter-party because they placed the order on margin, they owe money to their broker/order clearing firm (escrow). It is not the counter-party that is left with the short end of the stick, but the person who placed an order without having the funds required to fill it.

The problem with current game mechanics is that the market does not provide the transparency that real-world markets enforce: you cannot tell if that outrageous bid's issuer is insolvent or not until you hold the goods required to actively transact against it. A real world market does not care about solvency; all orders can transact. Instead, 3rd party clearing firms deal with solvency issues before and after market transactions occur.

The fake margin bid isn't much of a scam as it is a manipulation of poor game mechanics. A good scam requires suspension of disbelief. The real scam here occurs when the player suspends their disbelief that CCP's conceptualization of a market is actually a neutral, equitable and transparent medium for exchange. If indeed it is "working as intended," the developers are certainly having a good laugh at the expense of those who aren't familiar with their obscure mechanics.



Frankly, A good scam is simply one that works, it doesn't really matter to the scammer whether they are manipulating someones emotions through text-chat or if they're manipulating a market mechanism that strays from what you think it should be.

In Eve, if you trust the wrong person, or trust blindly in the system, you lose isk. That's a good thing. It's the best thing about eve. I'd say, in fact, it defines eve. This hasn't really changed since 2003, and I'm so very glad that it has not.

Adrian Steel
Caldari
Kabukimono Exploration Syndicate
Greater Realms
Posted - 2011.02.01 15:22:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Ris Dnalor
Linda,

You weren't scammed out of anything. You stated you built some items to fill a sell order. You still have those items. The intrinsic value of those items did not change simply because a buy order evaporated. If those items aren't actually worth 45m isk each, then that should've been your first clue...

If somethings sounds too good to be true, it likely is. If you take a gamble to try to make quick cash, well, the risk was your choice. In the case of someone else, not you, that might've bought the items for 40m isk ( I'm assuming they're not worth anywhere near that ) to sell for 45m isk, then that person would've been scammed. But, it's not an exploit still, because even that person could've done his homework, found out the item wasn't worth that, and purchased it somewhere else for cheaper instead of looking for quick easy cash. In fact, looking for quick easy cash is the reason why most people get scammed in the first place. Greed overwhelms, and loss of isk is the result YARRRR!!


Your argument fails on the most fundamental of intellectual levels.

In order to have a neutral gaming/market environment, risk is a requirement for BOTH parties of a player-versus-player encounter. In this case, there is no risk for the issuer of the fake bid because his only downside is the large broker fee which is known beforehand. Risk is an element of unknown future circumstances. The fake bid issuer already knows all possible variables which may affect the future while the counter-party does not. To put it in terms which you can understand - Sesame Street would call this u-n-f-a-i-r.

Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
Posted - 2011.02.01 15:48:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Adrian Steel
No established market in the real world has "fake" orders which do not transact.
I hear there's an upstart exchange on the east coast doing things differently. NYSE if I remember it correctly.

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2011.02.01 15:53:00 - [85]
 

DEAR GOD! I didn't know George Romero played EVE...only he could have brought this thread back from the dead! Shocked

X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X ..."...brains, whatever."



stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.01 15:53:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Adrian Steel

In this case, there is no risk for the issuer of the fake bid because his only downside is the large broker fee which is known beforehand.


^^ This. ^^

The bogus market order auto-cancels without any intervention necessary by the scammer. The only risk is the potential loss of the broker fees.

The biggest problem with scams in Eve is that there's no good way to enforce consequences. No lawsuits, no jail time, no garnishing of wages, etc., which combined with alts, makes scamming a 'good' idea.

<Idea>
We have security status. Why not have an equivalent market security status or credit rating? If a character constantly puts up margin orders that fail, then their rating takes a hit. The rating would appear next to the order.

The effectiveness of the margin trading skill is tied to the player's market rating. The worse it is, the greater the amount necessary to escrow.

Could even potentially tie a character's credit rating to an eventual loan/credit system.
</Idea>


Adrian Steel
Caldari
Kabukimono Exploration Syndicate
Greater Realms
Posted - 2011.02.01 16:09:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Luminos
Originally by: Adrian Steel
No established market in the real world has "fake" orders which do not transact.
I hear there's an upstart exchange on the east coast doing things differently. NYSE if I remember it correctly.


Flash crash scams notwithstanding... ^^

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.02.01 16:11:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 01/02/2011 16:13:40
Originally by: Adrian Steel
In order to have a neutral gaming/market environment, risk is a requirement for BOTH parties of a player-versus-player encounter. In this case, there is no risk for the issuer of the fake bid because his only downside is the large broker fee which is known beforehand.
But that's just it: there is no risk in the transaction for the seller either — he still has the goods and hasn't lost anything. The way margin trading works means that both parties are equally protected: the buyer does not lose money he doesn't have; the seller doesn't lose items without getting paid.

You could argue that there is some risk in the general case: the actual scam all done at the other end, where the issuer sells the mark the item in the first place at a vastly inflated price, which only works because the mark fails to spot that he's buying something that he won't be able to recoup the cost of should his speculation fail. But in the OP's case there wasn't even this little risk (or, rather, failure of risk analysis) because he produced the items himself and thus didn't lose a dime. He still has the items and he didn't obtain them at a higher-than-market-value price that requires him to put them back into the market at a loss.


…also: holy necro, batman. ugh

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.01 16:12:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: JitPC
How could you have been more careful?

You don't "beat" scams by being careful. You avoid the scam entirely. That's how you could have been more careful. You thought you could beat the scammer, and you failed. You knowingly took a risk, and failed. Your fault 100%.


Exactly. Never play a player. And certain don't go whine about it when he bested you, after all.

Muna Kea
Posted - 2011.02.01 16:17:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
Edited by: LindaSpartan 058 on 06/12/2010 10:00:50
Im sure a lot of you know about the market scam where someone finds some rare item, puts up a sell order 10 or so items say 40 mil a peice. Then they put up a buy order a few jumps away for 20 ish items at 45 mil a peice. So being a trader, one thinks they can just move it and make a quick buck. Well of course the minimum volume for the buy order was more than are for sale in the Market anywhere. Recognizing this, I built enought items to fill the order along with the items already for sale on the market. I check every couple seconds to make sure the buy order is still up. When i finally go to sell the items. It says the order is no longer valid. I'm out hundreds of millions of isk. What does CCP have to say?




I lost 700M on that one as well. I went into it with the full knowledge that it was a scam. What I didn't realize was that it was a bot. And no matter how fast a human can click 'sell', a bot can click 'cancel order' faster.

Lesson learned.


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