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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.10 19:20:00 - [241]
 

Edited by: Kalle Demos on 10/12/2010 19:23:39
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein


edit2: how exactly do you imagine this bot detection would work? not exactly hard for the bot author to introduce substantial randomization of bot behavior.



I dont think you get this still, if this was an idea I created, I probably would agree with you but theres already a nice and effective way in dealing with bots and techniques that I have mentioned are being used and have been effective for many years, other games do this, who openly announce they check bots to understand their enemy.

If a bot gets changed your anti-botting WONT be picking up on bots, the following is most likely the reason

A- The bot has been changed like glider for the 5000th time

or a very unlikely scenario

B- no one is botting

EVE isnt the only game out there but by the looks of it is the only one that doesnt do anything against non-RMT botters, sounds to me your concerns are more todo with your afk income than anything else.

Originally by: ILikeMarkets
lmao wow. Captcha has to be the dumbest EVE idea I've ever heard of.

I can see it now- miner is going. Suddenly a ganker warps into the belt. Time to leav...

LOLCAPTCHA!!! Worst timing ever. Please fill me out before you can warp to safety.

Bye bye hulk. :)


Like I said it would ONLY apply to botters, so if botters are the only one affected who would really care, besides who really warps out when they see another player in their belt, by the time you have aligned you are dead anyway.

Memorya
Posted - 2010.12.10 19:51:00 - [242]
 


Any reporters from masively here, this coud be your good news ? Ban the botter's.

ILikeMarkets
Posted - 2010.12.10 19:55:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos


Like I said it would ONLY apply to botters, so if botters are the only one affected who would really care, besides who really warps out when they see another player in their belt, by the time you have aligned you are dead anyway.


So wait... your entire plan henges on them already knowing who the botters are?

Except... if they already know who the botters are, why not just ban them? Isn't the point of the captchas to catch the botters?

Go look up recursion on google.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.10 19:57:00 - [244]
 

Edited by: Kalle Demos on 10/12/2010 19:58:42
Originally by: ILikeMarkets
Originally by: Kalle Demos


Like I said it would ONLY apply to botters, so if botters are the only one affected who would really care, besides who really warps out when they see another player in their belt, by the time you have aligned you are dead anyway.


So wait... your entire plan henges on them already knowing who the botters are?

Except... if they already know who the botters are, why not just ban them? Isn't the point of the captchas to catch the botters?

Go look up recursion on google.


Im bored, please troll tomorrow when I care

Also read what I have written :P

Maier Lehman
Posted - 2010.12.10 20:05:00 - [245]
 

majesta "bot" empire

clean your own ranks of ebay selling "pro gamers" first upon crying around like a baby. and if you are onto it continue within the ranks of your masters^^

hahahahaha

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.12.10 20:07:00 - [246]
 

Considering that mining is one of the most boring ways to spend actually playing a game...

Lady Aja
Posted - 2010.12.10 20:07:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.


ok we all know ccp implimented no trial accounts can be working with a full account a long time ago.

how about? you guy when someone is playing eve and a bot program is resident in memory , i automatically resets the client OR it send you mail and youknow what account to insta ban.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.10 20:42:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Ganagati
An example of how this could work? Besides the theoretical "They should figure out how to do it. I'm sure it's easy!". Bots use the same mechanics game clients do to send commands to them. When those commands appear at CCPs servers, it looks no different and is completely indistinguishable from a normal player sending information. At no point do botters crack into CCP's servers. So, I look forward to hearing how they could do this. You have no idea how many lives you would make easier in doing so... and that last line isn't sarcasm.


Well if we're talking about replacing/compromising the client then the fix for that is pretty trivial. Client sends an encrypted token to server after the handshake which is unique every time - just grab a timestamp from the server/client and use that as part of the seed for the token, along with the hash outputs for the critical files in the client. Longer load/login time but something has to give. No valid token = no login regardless of username/password presented.

As far as client comms go, well we're talking about data injection so there are options available there - both client and server-side but only CCP can comment on those as they're not "free" in terms of cpu usage.

This is just after like a few minutes thought so I'm sure its easily subverted. Its not beyond the wit of man to sort this out though. Really.

xo3e
The Deliberate Forces
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.12.10 21:03:00 - [249]
 

1) delayed local
2) npc gives aggro timer same as players (if someone will log off while being aggroed by npcs - his ship will warp out to spot and will be there for 15 minutes)
3) standard cloaking device (not cov-ops cloak) must consume capacitor, so BS full of cap-mods will be out of cap in 15 or so minutes and then decloak

= no bots (and atomic rage of 00 carebears as bonus)

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.10 21:22:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: xo3e
1) delayed local
2) npc gives aggro timer same as players (if someone will log off while being aggroed by npcs - his ship will warp out to spot and will be there for 15 minutes)
3) standard cloaking device (not cov-ops cloak) must consume capacitor, so BS full of cap-mods will be out of cap in 15 or so minutes and then decloak

= no bots (and atomic rage of 00 carebears as bonus)


<3 it, especially 3, means probers will be used more

Shame no one from Hydra applied to be a CSM

/brown nose off :D

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2010.12.10 21:40:00 - [251]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 10/12/2010 21:59:57
Originally by: Kalle Demos


I dont think you get this still, if this was an idea I created, I probably would agree with you but theres already a nice and effective way in dealing with bots and techniques that I have mentioned are being used and have been effective for many years, other games do this, who openly announce they check bots to understand their enemy.

My rule on all programming/CS-related claims is - either I understand how the described service/mechanic/feature/... can work in principle or I believe the claim to be fake until I have been convinced.

You wrote that the captcha is only displayed when a suspicion has already been established.

The question is - where does this suspicion come from?

A good bot should be indistinguishable from a real player after all.

One solution is to install spyware on your customers' computers and monitor what programs they run besides your own (you have to add rootkit-like features, too, to make sure that spyware is not easily bypassed). That's extremely ugly, doesn't work when the bot is changed and because said spyware runs on the customers' PC he can analyze and bypass it without too much troubles.

Otherwise how do you detect a bot? do you suspect every player who earns a certain amount of ISK per week from mining to be a bot and give him some sort of Turing test? do you suspect every character who is actively logged in for more than <x> hours?

or do you go after actual behavior (as you seemed to suggest)? because in that case you get into problems.
you say "but a bot is predictable, he always does the same things" - well, instead of waiting 2 seconds before going to the next step the bot good as well wait for a random amount of seconds drawn from some distribution with mean 2. The bot can warp to random belts, change the order of some actions (why always activate the first and then the second mining laser?), take random breaks to check out 4chan with the IGB, ... all without much effort to the bot writer.

If the bot writer wants to be serious about this he could even create a database of recorded actions by real players and select from these (or do variations on these).

So unless you go for the crude "everybody who is playing for more than <x> hours per day" metric (which basically only says "hey, extreme botting is not good for you") how do you establish that initial suspicion?

Every game company will tell you that they can detect bots somewhat reliably because the first step to prevent botting in your game is to scare people away from using bots (read Akita's posts on that matter). But unless you provide more specific information I have no reason to believe that the bot detection system you describe (before the actual captcha is presented) is really that good.

Originally by: Kalle Demos
EVE isnt the only game out there but by the looks of it is the only one that doesnt do anything against non-RMT botters, sounds to me your concerns are more todo with your afk income than anything else.

no I don't play actively atm - I am just concerned because lots of know-it-alls are rallying up on this matter without giving much thought to the possible consequences of their demands ... if you allow me an analogy saying "let's ban all bots now" is the same sort of reaction like saying "don't bailout the banks" after Lehman Brothers had already collapsed.
What might be right in principle might be completely unfeasible and extremely harmful in practice.


but if you want a good example of a working anti-bot system in EVE take the system scanner - practically impossible to automate for any OCR/screen-based bot, apparently not accessible via the memory-reading/-manipulating solutions and very hard to exploit (maybe if you intercept the DirectX calls to draw the solarsystem map, scan spheres and hits you could get a bot to understand and use that 3D layout but taht's easier said than done and pretty intrusive)

Vestrara Khai
Posted - 2010.12.10 22:08:00 - [252]
 

Edited by: Vestrara Khai on 10/12/2010 22:37:01
I like the idea of having CCP install spyware on my computer. Oh wait...

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.10 22:53:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
snip


I would prefer a change to the mechanics on how mining and ratting and various other boring tasks work, but CCP are hardly known for being quick on changes.

So im thinking change it to 'xo3e' idea but for goodness dont do another unholy rage that ONLY targets RMT, ALL botters need to be focused on.

As to your "games try to scare" while this may be true, in other games I have actually seen bans given for botting careless of RMT, they are usually temp bans followed by permo bans but there is a focus of getting rid of bots.

I will wait to hear what CCP say next week, there is no point in raging atm.

Oh and "CCP cant deal with botters because it requires too much time" is a poor excuse much like the "CCP cant put new stuff in game to counter bots, it puts too much strain on the server" when every expansion HAS contained a **** load of new stuff.

I hate getting involved in heated **** like this but right now I am thinking "what is the point of ANYONE PvE'ing when they can just get a bot go afk, put zero effort in the game and get everything".

If people want no risk PvP they should go play on sisi :P

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.12.10 23:00:00 - [254]
 

Why doesn't CCP do something like punkbuster?

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.10 23:13:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Dmoney3788
Why doesn't CCP do something like punkbuster?


Because everyone is a secret agent in real life with so much valuable information on their computer that they dont get how warden / punkbuster works and worried Wikileaks will get hold of the information and destroy the world.

Saying that what does CCP have access to now, when I log onto eve what can they see, I am currently a week into a petition todo with a 'skill bug' and after 7 replies finally asked "you know you guys have access to my account it would be much easier to just look yourselves rather than have me explain".

So what exactly can CCP see now? IP only Rolling Eyes

Warden

CCP can sue botting companies after and make money Laughing

HyperZerg
Posted - 2010.12.10 23:26:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.


We care about Macros and Bots, not RMT ... I starting to belive you don't want to get this one ...

RMT destroys CCP
Bots/Macros destroy the game.

Let's fix both !

Open Orifice
Posted - 2010.12.10 23:29:00 - [257]
 

This is the first MMO I have ever played in 22 years of gaming. After understanding the immense issue of this I will never start another one again. I stay here though because I'm hooked and don't want to leave.

Kraundewr
Posted - 2010.12.10 23:51:00 - [258]
 

For God's sake people, wake up. Game companies are about money. Accounts = cash flow into CCPs pocket.

If you seriously think CCP will "ban" botters and macro miners then you need to HTFU.

Perhaps you should recommend that for every botting/macro account you will personally pay the GTC cost per lost account. CCP might listen then.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.10 23:55:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: Kraundewr
For God's sake people, wake up. Game companies are about money. Accounts = cash flow into CCPs pocket.

If you seriously think CCP will "ban" botters and macro miners then you need to HTFU.

Perhaps you should recommend that for every botting/macro account you will personally pay the GTC cost per lost account. CCP might listen then.


Then they should remove all the rules, as long as they are making money that is all that matters right?

Freedom for exploiters
Freedom for hackers
Freedom for cheaters

Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.11 00:04:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Kraundewr
For God's sake people, wake up. Game companies are about money. Accounts = cash flow into CCPs pocket.

If you seriously think CCP will "ban" botters and macro miners then you need to HTFU.

Perhaps you should recommend that for every botting/macro account you will personally pay the GTC cost per lost account. CCP might listen then.


Botter destroy markets, as soon as markets destroyed normal player will leave, when normal player left botter will leave.

If a company just wants fast money (EA for example) they do nothing against botters as they got their money by selling CDs.
If a company wants a long tearm moneymaker (Blizzard/CCP) they fight the booters to secure their income.


But we should not only talk about mining/ratting/missioning bots.
What about all the Jita-trade-bots??

Jita-trade-bots are far easier to create as you have no random factor like "where will the enemy move". And there are planty of them! I do any bet 50 to 75% of this 0.01 cent "traders" are bots.
- place offers
- refresh market view
- alter your offers
SUPER easy made, sero risk.

Do you include them into your fight @CCP?

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2010.12.11 00:06:00 - [261]
 

Raging against the machine!

Fanndis
Posted - 2010.12.11 01:45:00 - [262]
 

over 6 months ago i reported 3 characters
that are in hulks mining 23/7 and all left their respective corps
on the same exact year/month/day/second ( 2009.08.21 17:58 )
so its clear that these 3 characters belong to same person

but all 3 are still mining in same system right this second
so i haven't bothered wasting my time reporting other macro's iv seen since


Rat Mcgee
Posted - 2010.12.11 06:23:00 - [263]
 

CCP stop macro users!!

tube chiId
Posted - 2010.12.11 10:07:00 - [264]
 

CCP stop macro users!!

ghost st
Posted - 2010.12.11 10:10:00 - [265]
 

Well CCP could easily do more against RMT and botting.

The easiest way (with a more long term effect) would be to re-introduce 30-day timecodes. And be more aggressive advertising and educating players about the plex system.

The first thing for CCP to do would be to have some kind of page or site be in the top results if someone searches for 'buy isk' or 'eve isk', stuff like that.

Reintroducing 30day gtc would give players a lower minimum cost to get a plex. The current system of having a minimum 60day gtc, sets a rather high minimum cost for players to buy plex for isk. (re)adding the 30day option would lower the minimum cost, which may be more attractive to some players.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.11 12:27:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
Will CCP be addressing RMT only or will they actually do something about botting unrelated to RMT

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2010.12.11 12:29:00 - [267]
 

Do you really want to 1/4 population ( yes that icludes big alliances macro fleets ) of the servers to dissapear . How will taht look for CCP.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.11 12:37:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Do you really want to 1/4 population ( yes that icludes big alliances macro fleets ) of the servers to dissapear . How will taht look for CCP.


Theres more than one way to fix any problem, banning isnt the only solution, right now though I would like to know what they are addressing.

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.12.11 13:11:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Do you really want to 1/4 population ( yes that icludes big alliances macro fleets ) of the servers to dissapear . How will taht look for CCP.


Theres more than one way to fix any problem, banning isnt the only solution, right now though I would like to know what they are addressing.


Problem is, if they tell Eve players what they're doing, at the same time they will be informing the botters what they're doing. Which will give the botters time to do something about it.

If they do give any feed-back on the botter problem, then it's best to get it after they've acted.

mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2010.12.11 13:12:00 - [270]
 

The "report isk spammer" button was a step in a good direction.

Harness the rage, use our hate against RMT Twisted Evil


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