open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 ... : last (89)

Author Topic

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.12.08 14:08:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Forum Guy on 08/12/2010 14:13:44
Originally by: Jaqel Broadside
Edited by: Jaqel Broadside on 08/12/2010 13:56:04
Most of the botting problems could be solved immediately with the following:

1) Remove local -> Removes the information used by botters to warp and cloak.
2) Cloaking can only be continuous fora short period of time, after which the cloak burns out. Cloaking for transport works fine as jump gates "allow" cool down time - timer reset.
3) Remove sovereignty, free space should allow anyone to go try and take it by force at any time.
4) Stop putting high isk value at static sites.
5) Remove all static sites and make them scannable only - no static asteroid belts, NPC sites, complexes etc
6) Stop penalising high sec play and putting ever more ISK into null sec - up and coming players have to be able to challenge established playuers - give them the means to do so.
7) Stop creating expensive all out GANK ships like Titans and Motherships. No one ship should be that all encompassing that a few players can dominate regions.
8) Ban any kind of wealth transfer system to trial accounts above a few 100K isk - ie by trade or transfer ISK or named contract. Allow market and open contracts only.
9) NPCs should hunt players doing repetative play as NPCs do in FW or if you have bad sec in a region. As all good commanders would in RL, they'd hunt the main protagonists.
10) Limit play time to a maximum of a set number of hours per 48 hours - people HAVE to sleep bots dont.
11) Reward interactive play, monitor chat channels and if repetative or no chat exists from players then they are flagged as bots -> easy investigation.
12) It should be easy to spot any program running on a computer that interfaces with the APIs that allow botting to be performed. Microsoft should be able to tell you how to sppot these programs easily.

By nerfing hisec activities all CCP has been doing is raising the bar on peole being able to afford to challenge established nullsec players.

START REWARDING INTERACTIVE PLAY A WHOLE LOT MORE.



OTT springs to mind.

I'd like to see the buyers hit hard not the sellers, because like I said before it's the buyers that perpetuate the market.

I used to mine in a Hulk with one character with cargo expanders. Took about 20 minutes to fill up, once full fly back to the station unload then fly back to the book-marked asteroid and repeat. Even have been asked if I was a bot in the past whilst mining. Mining is not that interactive, great for watching a film or reading a book at the same time.

As for a time limit that's just a daft idea. I myself can easily knock-up 32+ hours in 2 days if I wish.

I also see people slipping in the get rid of local in 0.0 argument as a solution which just says to me its pvp players that want to get rid of local for pvp reasons using botters as the excuse.

Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
Posted - 2010.12.08 14:20:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: Captain Pompous on 08/12/2010 14:28:58
yo

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.12.08 14:33:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
Stuff


Right, kill off parts of EVE cause they are too easy to bot instead of trying to secure the client, lowering the cost of GTC and cracking down on buyers of RMT by getting tougher on them AND promoting the acceptable method of 'buying isk' in game.

Oh and we should all take up to working for CCP while conversely paying them to play their game so WE can do their jobs and attack suspected bots, cause that is all we as players can do suspect someone is a bot, no ****ing thanks.

CCP gets out of providing the full use of PLEX/subscription for accounts they ban for RMT, so if 50 PLEX are used CCP didn't have to provide 50 full months of service on them, it could have been as little as a few days for each one or as long as it took for CCP to notice the RMT transactions were happening. Additionally CCP should very easily have numbers on how many accounts are likely bots in that they can see 23/7 activity in space, ie fighting NPCs, over just station spinners as well as very diligent scheduling that likely only a bot would have. That number represents how many accounts are paid for in advance every month, only CCP has those numbers and thus knows how much they make based off the premise that people will buy the RMT isk the owners are trying to sell, not sold, trying to sell before CCP finds them and shuts them down.

I'd also add that saying that RMT sales = lost GTC sales is false, just as the RIAA saying music downloads equate to lost record sales, we don't know how many people would or wouldn't buy RMT isk if it didn't exist there isn't a one to one formula because the prices are different and people have different motivations for why they'd risk banning/getting put in the red over just getting it the game 'legal' way.

Karoll Borman
Posted - 2010.12.08 15:05:00 - [154]
 

There is no MMORPG in existence, which doesn't require mundane, mind-blowing and massive grinding in order to achieve your goals.
Not one.
As long as the gameplay forces players to do grinding, the game is doomed to be automated.
Simple as that.
We all know how much mining is needed for the minerals, required to construct Tier 1 Battleship, if you do it by yourself.
We all hate the mandatory Corp Mining Ops twice a week, so we can replenish and re-supply our assets.
It is fun for the rookies first couple of times, but then it becomes extremely boring. We all know that. And then it is not fun anymore. It is job. If you don't show up, the CEO whines. Corpmates who have more time to play than you, whine. Everyone whines.
Team effort becomes a burden, soon or a later. - >This is the moment you start looking for alternatives.
Wait, the game allows you to crate alt.
Game allows you to pay with in-game currency for play time.
->
Screw that, I'm not paying with real money for my game time, since the game allows it. I can easily download a bot, which I can set up in 15 minutes. And it can mine all day, feed me and the botting account, in HS, risk free. Because the gameplay allows it. And the gameplay even encourages it.

WTF do you want, people?

EVE's base gameplay is extremely grinding and time-demanding, there will always be bots, since it would take many days for player or group of players to grind the resources to support themselves.
How insane must a person be to seat himself after a long working day, and... watch rocks in space, engulfed in mining lasers... for hours. Nothing else. For hours. Or to run HS plexes. Or to rat in NPC space. Or to mission. Same boring missions over and over.

Again, this time sing with me:
All MMORPGs are grinding and time-demanding, therefore they are forcing players to automate them!

No matter how expensive the Trit will be, if there are no botters, mining will still be as boring as ****.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.12.08 15:16:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Bhattran
Originally by: Gnulpie
Stuff


Right, kill off parts of EVE cause they are too easy to bot...


Did you read my post because it doesn't look like it.

What part of EVE would you kill by removing senseless grind? What part would be killed if for example the klickfest of PI would be replaced by some better game design which makes PI actual fun AND pretty impossible to bot? Same with mining which is just a no-brainer grind, some with how invention work (install job, deliver, install build job, deliver, rinse and repeat, perfect for bots and booring).

Botting usually reveals a major flaw in the game design.

And making GTC cheaper? Yeah suuuuure. Great idea. Why not make them free, then you get 100% completely rid of RMT and botters, right? Rolling Eyes

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2010.12.08 15:48:00 - [156]
 

Rabble rabble rabble. No moar bots.

Hire me to keep tabs on them. I will give every single one a fair and honest permaban.

ChingChongCha
Posted - 2010.12.08 15:56:00 - [157]
 

Two easy solutions, although I doubt it will ever be done because CCP will loose to much income. Yes, they are making money from the bots as well.

1) Get rid of GTC's completely!!!
2) Get rid of character sales. Someone give you a character (for nothing) or you train one.

There are no other way. Anything else will punish the players who are not involved in this bull**** as well. Mad

chrisss0r
The Lowbirds
Posted - 2010.12.08 16:27:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: ChingChongCha
Two easy solutions, although I doubt it will ever be done because CCP will loose to much income. Yes, they are making money from the bots as well.

1) Get rid of GTC's completely!!!
2) Get rid of character sales. Someone give you a character (for nothing) or you train one.

There are no other way. Anything else will punish the players who are not involved in this bull**** as well. Mad


so your solution to fight black markets is to kill off legit markets completely? you sir are pretty stupid

StyweBal
Mercenaries of Andosia
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.12.08 16:45:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: chrisss0r
Originally by: ChingChongCha
Two easy solutions, although I doubt it will ever be done because CCP will loose to much income. Yes, they are making money from the bots as well.

1) Get rid of GTC's completely!!!
2) Get rid of character sales. Someone give you a character (for nothing) or you train one.

There are no other way. Anything else will punish the players who are not involved in this bull**** as well. Mad


so your solution to fight black markets is to kill off legit markets completely? you sir are pretty stupid


No, you sir, are stupid as ****!

These markets are NOT in game. PLEX were introduced in game to make it "easier" but is part of nothing else in game. Can you comprehend the difference??? I doubt.
Are you making some RL cash from this as well? I guess so, looking at your response.

chrisss0r
The Lowbirds
Posted - 2010.12.08 16:52:00 - [160]
 

u mad?

if you kill off methods to turn your cash into isk legally people will do it by rmt.

if you kill off methods to use your isk to buy a character people will instead sell their isk for cash and use the cash to buy a character.

plex and charactertrade DECREASE rmt. Killing off plex/gtc would be the best thing you can do for the rmt guys.

just like banning alcohol was a ****ing kickstart for the 30's mafia business

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.12.08 16:57:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: Forum Guy on 08/12/2010 17:21:12

Stiffer penalties for buyers would help may deter some from going that route.



Originally by: chrisss0r
u mad?

if you kill off methods to turn your cash into isk legally people will do it by rmt.

if you kill off methods to use your isk to buy a character people will instead sell their isk for cash and use the cash to buy a character.

plex and charactertrade DECREASE rmt. Killing off plex/gtc would be the best thing you can do for the rmt guys.

just like banning alcohol was a ****ing kickstart for the 30's mafia business


What you say is true. The usual excuse for buying in-game currency is that they don't get enough time to play so buy the currency so they don't have to spend all their time farming it. Which frees them up to do the more enjoyable parts of the game. But of course in this game with PLEX that's even a poorer excuse.



Edit: Moved my original comment above the post of chrisss0r as it did not actually reference it. And added note below the post of chrisss0r.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:01:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Spurty on 08/12/2010 17:02:33
chrisss0r = completely correct

They are clearly sane and just displayed more than adequate knowledge of market forces.

Other guy = He is 'foaming' a bit there

Lowering the RL cost of legitimate ISK via GTC sales forces illegitimate ones out of business. Why add RISK to your purchase?

+1 to chrisss0r, -50DKP to nay-sayers.

CCP aren't ignorant of RMTing, they just move 'slower' and they wield one heck of a big stick to thwack em with.

StyweBal
Mercenaries of Andosia
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:03:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: chrisss0r
u mad?

if you kill off methods to turn your cash into isk legally people will do it by rmt.

if you kill off methods to use your isk to buy a character people will instead sell their isk for cash and use the cash to buy a character.

plex and charactertrade DECREASE rmt. Killing off plex/gtc would be the best thing you can do for the rmt guys.

just like banning alcohol was a ****ing kickstart for the 30's mafia business


Of course I'm mad. Wink

That said, the client needs some hardcore securing as well with the suggestions Ching made to be completely effective, else yes, bots will go on.

chrisss0r
The Lowbirds
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:08:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: StyweBal
Originally by: chrisss0r
u mad?

if you kill off methods to turn your cash into isk legally people will do it by rmt.

if you kill off methods to use your isk to buy a character people will instead sell their isk for cash and use the cash to buy a character.

plex and charactertrade DECREASE rmt. Killing off plex/gtc would be the best thing you can do for the rmt guys.

just like banning alcohol was a ****ing kickstart for the 30's mafia business


Of course I'm mad. Wink

That said, the client needs some hardcore securing as well with the suggestions Ching made to be completely effective, else yes, bots will go on.


you are also stupid. the suggestions you (ching) made won't fix ANYTHING. they will make things worse. whats so hard to understand?

Atm you can either choose to buy a character with let's say 10b isk or buy it on ebay with the cahs-equivalent of 7 bill isk but with the risk to get banned and have nothing. Many people take the safer route and pay a bit more for char transfers. Killing the legal way people will have to use rmt.

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:11:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 08/12/2010 17:15:22
Originally by: Spurty
Lowering the RL cost of legitimate ISK via GTC sales forces illegitimate ones out of business. Why add RISK to your purchase?

+1 to chrisss0r, -50DKP to nay-sayers.

allowing people to pay for their subscription with ISK (via GTC trade, PLEX) makes botting much more attractive.

bot => sell ISK for RL cash => pay for subscription is :effort:

bot => PLEX is easy

the "if I run my mining bot for a few hours every weekday while I am at work/school/uni, I can play this game for free" argument is a strong one.

... and without any data to back me up (but with some ex-corp/alliance-mates in mind) I would expect most bot users to be of that type - no connection to direct RMT, money laundering, ... using a primitive mining bot to make some ISK during the times they cannot play.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:15:00 - [166]
 

Everyone is focusing a little too much on RMT.

Lets just look at in-game effects. Assume the bots don't do RMT, they only pay for the account via PLEX. Now you've seen some wild figures thrown around but lets take a very conservative view for a few seconds.

Assume the bot is just run by someone who starts it up when they go to work/school for 8 hours. Now we'll assume that the isk/hour figures for the bot are overstated on the various sites. Lets say 10mill/hour OK?

So for the month we have : 10(mill) x 8(hours) x 30(days) = 2.4 billion isk. Every month. BEFORE you even start playing the game. That's just for a "casual" botter who is actually a player, not a RMT *****.

I've been in alliances/corps where there's always someone that seems to have been "left logged in by mistake" and doesn't talk for 10 hours or so on channels or vent/TS. Haven't most of you noticed the same and isn't it always the same people now you think about it?

Eve sov gameplay is screwed really - and its not the riches of moons that are doing it, its the ability to generate isk literally from nothing (npc bounties) while being at work.

Jaqel Broadside
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:38:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: chrisss0r
Originally by: StyweBal
Originally by: chrisss0r
u mad?

if you kill off methods to turn your cash into isk legally people will do it by rmt.

if you kill off methods to use your isk to buy a character people will instead sell their isk for cash and use the cash to buy a character.

plex and charactertrade DECREASE rmt. Killing off plex/gtc would be the best thing you can do for the rmt guys.

just like banning alcohol was a ****ing kickstart for the 30's mafia business


Of course I'm mad. Wink

That said, the client needs some hardcore securing as well with the suggestions Ching made to be completely effective, else yes, bots will go on.


you are also stupid. the suggestions you (ching) made won't fix ANYTHING. they will make things worse. whats so hard to understand?

Atm you can either choose to buy a character with let's say 10b isk or buy it on ebay with the cahs-equivalent of 7 bill isk but with the risk to get banned and have nothing. Many people take the safer route and pay a bit more for char transfers. Killing the legal way people will have to use rmt.



Actually if the account was verified and traceable then no fraud would be possible at all.

Buying characters by what so ever means just promotes fraudulant activities.

All character sales should be banned - they should be terminated and that's it.

All accounts should be paid for by CASH via accepted means - any payment method which cannot be verified should be disabled.

Quite frankly if this situation isnt sorted the people who do pay for the game will leave.

I know because that is on the cards for accounts I pay as it will be for anyone else who realises they could do something more valuable with their time.

There are no excuses any more,,, none what so ever.

There is NO reason to even have these high ISK value NPCs at stastic sites,, neither is there a reason to have shpis like the Raven that dont require human input to survive.

A radical rething is needed to stop this process now or there will be no game.

Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:01:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Othran
I've been in alliances/corps where there's always someone that seems to have been "left logged in by mistake" and doesn't talk for 10 hours or so on channels or vent/TS. Haven't most of you noticed the same and isn't it always the same people now you think about it?

There are entire corps and maybe even alliances of obvious farmers, who are blue to some of the major power blocks. A short trip through the drone regions can open your eyes for the real magnitude of the RMT problem.

Jessicat
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:05:00 - [169]
 

CCP do something!

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:10:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Feilamya
There are entire corps and maybe even alliances of obvious farmers, who are blue to some of the major power blocks. A short trip through the drone regions can open your eyes for the real magnitude of the RMT problem.


I've been to Stain and seen the AAA Citizens Ravens thanks Wink Been out to Perrigen Falls too, Oasa and the Spire.

The point I was trying to make is that even for someone who doesn't care about RMT, this bollox affects you as its simply cheating. No need to talk about RMT - if your enemy has more members who bot when at work than you do then he'll likely win the sov war*

*assuming equality in TZ participation etc.

gfldex
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:30:00 - [171]
 

/me goes into 28-days-rage-monkey-cage-rattle-mode after reading this article

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:40:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Feilamya
Originally by: Othran
I've been in alliances/corps where there's always someone that seems to have been "left logged in by mistake" and doesn't talk for 10 hours or so on channels or vent/TS. Haven't most of you noticed the same and isn't it always the same people now you think about it?

There are entire corps and maybe even alliances of obvious farmers, who are blue to some of the major power blocks. A short trip through the drone regions can open your eyes for the real magnitude of the RMT problem.
Bull. You've never been to the drone regions.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2010.12.08 20:02:00 - [173]
 

Carebears buy ISK

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.08 20:07:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Feilamya
Originally by: Othran
I've been in alliances/corps where there's always someone that seems to have been "left logged in by mistake" and doesn't talk for 10 hours or so on channels or vent/TS. Haven't most of you noticed the same and isn't it always the same people now you think about it?

There are entire corps and maybe even alliances of obvious farmers, who are blue to some of the major power blocks. A short trip through the drone regions can open your eyes for the real magnitude of the RMT problem.
Bull. You've never been to the drone regions.


I do feel sorry how the bad press is on you guys, theres botters everywhere in 0.0 and people cant really single out the Russians espeically when the 'Russians are botters' propaganda was started by nc lol

Ulrich Ultor
Posted - 2010.12.08 22:07:00 - [175]
 

I'm returning to the game after a long break and this boils up. Everyone knows botting occurs, but if it is so widespread that no 0.0 power block can maintain power without botting I am concerned. If all the time spent fighting in 0.0 was ultimately a waste why play the game ? If power blocks exist not only to win a spaceship game but also to make money, both through cheating, something is askew.

Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.08 23:18:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 08/12/2010 23:24:54
Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 08/12/2010 23:23:13
1) there is NO big 0.0 ally which does not run bots. Sometimes just some of the members, sometimes even "corp-owned" bots.
PvP IS expensive and for most people it's an ISK-sink with sero gain (they gain fun but no ISK). So they need some sort of income. As most PvP player HATE PvE they don't want to rat/missioning/trade/produce, they chose the easy way of RMT and/or boting.

2) as there are ways to program bots there are ways to program anti-bots (tools to detect bots). It's just a question if the game owner want this anti-bots or not. In addition you need someone to check the findings of this anti-bots (like you need someone to check the bot from time to time).

3) Chribba is a trader, he does not care who sells or buys stuff from him. He want profit. Even IF he knows, that the ISK is illigal made, he wouldn't care to much as long as his accounts/chars aren't in dangure and his profit is save.
But where should he know it from? Rumores? Will the seller/buyer tell it to him? Very unlikely. And as long as it is just a rumore ... he might contact CCP to check it. But why should he as long as he know "I am proven as secure at CCP"?

He might contact CCP under 2 circumstands:
- some party scammed him
- he get the feeling his acc/chars/goods are in dangure

Is it legit what he do? Technical yes!
Is it "right" what he do? If he like the game no!

Originally by: Ulrich Ultor
I'm returning to the game after a long break and this boils up. Everyone knows botting occurs, but if it is so widespread that no 0.0 power block can maintain power without botting I am concerned. If all the time spent fighting in 0.0 was ultimately a waste why play the game ? If power blocks exist not only to win a spaceship game but also to make money, both through cheating, something is askew.

Well, ANY online game has this problem and from all the games I played the "top player/guilds/corps" allways used cheats, exploids, bugs, RMT to get and hold this status.

As boring as it is but you must except it, if you want to have some fun :(.
"I will never be one of the top players as I REFUSE TO CHEAT!"

PS: and that's why PvP in any game is pritty useless anyway.
Use no cheat = can't compet => no reson to PvP => relax with PvE ;)

The Git
Posted - 2010.12.09 00:01:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: The Git on 09/12/2010 02:08:32
Make mining a known asteroid belt an NPC activity only. The only exception would be randomly seeded asteroids found through exploration. Any other player acquired minerals not purchased from the seeded market, would be derived from processed loot and ships. Create a true salvaging ship that will collect entire wrecks and return them to station for reprocessing.

Sure, the idea needs a lot more fleshing out....but it's a start.

Kireiina
Posted - 2010.12.09 01:21:00 - [178]
 


I would like to see CCP address this issue. It warps and perverts the game and ultimately will drive off people trying to play it by the rules.

How they actually solve it I'm not so concerned about.

Realistically though Eve is on the back-burner, as a company CCP really needs to get Dust and WoD out, so not expecting too much is a good bet.

Derek McGiggles
Posted - 2010.12.09 06:55:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Kireiina

Realistically though Eve is on the back-burner, as a company CCP really needs to get Dust and WoD out, so not expecting too much is a good bet.



Sometimes, it really feels like it is...

knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.09 07:08:00 - [180]
 

re: lowering cost of gtc:

one that can't be done and 2, people in wormholes make to much money as it is, which is where some of the problem lies.

stop botters and reduce wormhole profits and gtc may go down. but there are so many ways in eve to make vast sums of money with little effort if you have multiple accounts and you play more than a casual player.

as a casual player the rise in gtc prices is welcome as I pvp and don't have time to grind anything, even null sec anoms.


Pages: first : previous : ... 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 ... : last (89)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only