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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.03.15 08:24:00 - [1711]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 15/03/2011 08:31:24
Originally by: PC l0adletter
Heya, Sreegs,

Can you comment on the six bots in ETO-OT, Spire, that have been merrily logged in 23/7? They were petitioned and discussed over a month ago in the EN24 article. Here's the screenshot with the names: http://evenews24.com/riverini/other_guys/fromage/2011.02.06.05.59.jpg

They're still there, farming away.

Looking at his prior posts he probably does not care.

... at least not in the way you want him to care.

5 bots are just a drop in the ocean and how does manually banning them solve the problem of botting? it doesn't.

A few days ago I spent about 30 minutes to write a Python script that solved a task I could have done manually in 5-10 minutes.

It even is relatively unlikely I will have to do the same task again in the near future (as the task was fairly specialized) but now I feel like I have truly "solved" the problem (I even included error handling for errors that I knew would not happen in that one specialized set of data) whereas doing the same stuff manually would have felt like a cheap workaround.

Of course you can spend a lot of man-hours on investigating and banning bots manually but as long as you think you have a good idea how to automate this process you won't - and from a purely technical perspective it doesn't really matter whether you need 1 week, 1 month or half a year to implement this solution as long as you know that it can be done.

Throwing bandaids at the problem might provide some temporary relief but it won't solve the problem at all - so why bother spending your resources on the development of bandaids when you can spend the same time on the development of a solution?

Now you will bring up tons of reasonable arguments about banning these bots having a high symbolic value, of EVE bleeding to death before a solution can be found if no bandaids are applied in time, ... but it is not my purpose to convince anyone that the approach outlined above is the right one to take, I just want to illustrate a certain train of thought that tends to be very popular with programmers (imo partly due to them often having a strong maths/applied maths/CS background).

If I look at the problem of botting I see three main challenges:

(a) create gameplay incentives that discourage botting
(b) identify bots
(c) link bots to larger botting/RMT operations

(a) is the job of the game designers
(c) does probably involve a lot of manual work (that is assisted by automated auditing tools).

(b) is an interesting challenge.
You can either concentrate on automated identification of bots or you can concentrate on handling reports by players in the most efficient manner possible (you can't do everything at once as resources are always limited).
In my pipe dreams I would want to design a system that takes reports from players, looks for any patterns in the reported character's actions (much, much harder than it sounds), if it finds any "meaningful" (but what would make them meaningful?) patterns compares these to its set of already known patterns and if new "learns" them to use them in its own automated scanning sweeps for bot activity. (With different patterns having different weights based on GM experience, analysis of bots and prevalence of these patterns in user reports).
Humans (players, GMs) are really good at pattern detection but using humans for detection is a solution that won't scale all that well (automated solution: high initial investment but low marginal cost).

... but that's just my rather lengthy 2 cents.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.15 08:36:00 - [1712]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
5 bots are just a drop in the ocean and how does manually banning them solve the problem of botting? it doesn't.


I think the point is that these bots have been petitioned multiple times and are still there.

As things stand it does NOT appear possible to get a bot permabanned unless they're involved in RMT.

That's the problem. Whats the point in petitioning when the "punishment" is nothing more than a temporary inconvenience?

That's why botting in Eve is endemic and it will continue to be so until running a bot is viewed as something more than a minor infraction of the rules.

ArtieLange
Posted - 2011.03.15 10:51:00 - [1713]
 

Did that AFK cloaking alliance ever kick off? I've got an alt I will never use for anything productive that's now in a cov-ops. I might be tempted to sit griefing people all day.

Erick Odin
Amarr
Local-Spike
Posted - 2011.03.15 11:17:00 - [1714]
 

tbh all you guys in highsec making billions is total safety resemble bots to me. just saying.

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.03.15 11:25:00 - [1715]
 

Originally by: Erick Odin
tbh all you guys in highsec making billions is total safety resemble bots to me. just saying.

0/10

Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.03.15 12:13:00 - [1716]
 

Edited by: Arnakoz on 15/03/2011 12:40:44
the Bot University page on reportBots is wholly inaccurate. all of these items have even been gone over multiple times in this very thread.

but, lets do it again... (sigh)

* This character is mining ore/ice from the time the server comes up until the time the server goes down.
YES! this is the ticket item. while some people may play for many hours on occasion, a high frequency of 23/7 play is a definite.

* This character exhibits no response to being bumped by my ship.
NO! most real players mine AFK. one only needs to interact with their mining character every few minutes at most, every 10 minutes at least. so bumping chars proves nothing.

* This character refuses to accept chat requests.
NO! people mine solo b/c they don't feel like being bothered. especially by random people. plus, as mentioned above, people mine AFK. so not accepting you're chat goes hand in hand. i even have a high (like 5m) charge to email me....

* This character warps away (usually to another belt) when approached.
NO! there are so many pirates and griefers out there that real players will do the same.

* This character mines only one or two types of ore.
NO! mining crystals force people to only mine one or two things.

* This character only mines high yielding ores like dense, massive, etc.
NO! i would ponder that this is more likely a trait of real players than bots - as bots would need OCR to pick out the good stuff. possible, but regardless real players tend to focus on the higher yield stuff as well.

* This character repeatedly warps to empty belts.
NO! if you're talking the same belt over and over, then yeah; though it may be someone not really paying attention to what they are doing (playing afk). but merely going to a number of empty belts is more a matter of trying to find a good place to mine. further, i really can't see bots not keeping track of which belts it found to be empty - its not like that would be hard to do.

* This character is part of a larger group of bots that do not mine together.
MAYBE! if you see a number of miners from the same corp all solo mining... then maybe. but this may be that they aren't big in splitting in their profits (you still mine the same amount whether in a group or not, difference is in a group you are depending on others to pay as much or more attention to match what would have been your solo profit) and only group mine during corp ops...
note: i know some genius will come along and say "you earn more while fleet boosted" or something equally ******ed... the answer: you can be fleet boosted but not mining in a group.

* This character repeats a cycle of mining in one belt, returning to station, and then mining in a different belt.
NO! if it weren't for pirates then i would call this a maybe. but when solo mining you don't drop cans, you go back to the station... at which point who cares which belt they go back to? they;re all the same... and if playing semi-afk you probably don't care to keep track either.


so.... you have one right, all the rest could merely be real people mining semi-afk. so at best you have a list of "could be a bot, but is just as likely to be a real player." short of 23/7 game play at least. I just hope that your site opens your eyes to how difficult it actually is to find real bots...

Erick Odin
Amarr
Local-Spike
Posted - 2011.03.15 12:27:00 - [1717]
 

Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Erick Odin
tbh all you guys in highsec making billions is total safety resemble bots to me. just saying.

0/10


dude don't post your killboard stats here nobody cares

Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.03.15 12:40:00 - [1718]
 

* This character is always online fighting PVE rats from server up to server down.
* This character always docks up or logs off whenever a neutral enters the system.
* This character fails to respond to requests for chat.
* This character gets stuck in warp bubbles I've placed in their suspected area of operation.
* This character remains in the same system from the time they log on until the time they log off.
* This character is part of a larger group of characters who fight NPC bots but in largely different locations.


this sounds about like every nullsec alliance out there. again, only definite here is playing 23/7 ....

as for the hualers... i've never been a hauler so i don't know. but i did notice something contradictory: in one point you say they run hauler missions, but then you say they don't create nor accept any contracts.. if you're running missions you're not accepting contracts. not sure what these two have to do with each other. and what does amarr have to do with haulers? really, i'm asking.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.15 12:48:00 - [1719]
 

Edited by: Othran on 15/03/2011 12:50:00
On detection of ratbots (ratting bots) :

I don't really understand what the "technical issue" is here.

Every time you kill a rat you get a bounty and/or sec standing increase. Now I know that sec status only goes to +5 these days but there's no reason why the increases couldn't be logged if required.

So as a first pass to filtering who's potentially running a ratbot you run a monthly check of total bounties per day/week on the playerbase. I'm assuming that data can be easily extracted by CCP and used "offline". Once your automated filter pulls out the top 5% of bounty earners then you enable logging of sec standing increases for those players (or ratbots). A week or so of data will show whether its a normal human being or not. Edit - obviously bounties wouldn't work for drone regions, but TBH they need attention anyway - both in the sense of ratbots and in the sense of being horrible places to live.

Now you've got a list of people who are either botting or account sharing. If its account sharing then that should be fairly easy to identify as the same peaks/troughs of rats killed will appear over time - or IP addresses/login times.

This is the point CCP should be handing the list to your senior GMs and get them to go have a look at how the player/ratbot behaves when something that isn't blue comes into system.

Its not rocket science. It does require a willingness to enforce the rules though.

Fanfest isn't far off anyway so we'll see whether that willingness exists.

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.03.15 13:01:00 - [1720]
 

Originally by: Othran
Edited by: Othran on 15/03/2011 12:50:00
On detection of ratbots (ratting bots) :

I don't really understand what the "technical issue" is here.

Every time you kill a rat you get a bounty and/or sec standing increase. Now I know that sec status only goes to +5 these days but there's no reason why the increases couldn't be logged if required.

So as a first pass to filtering who's potentially running a ratbot you run a monthly check of total bounties per day/week on the playerbase. I'm assuming that data can be easily extracted by CCP and used "offline". Once your automated filter pulls out the top 5% of bounty earners then you enable logging of sec standing increases for those players (or ratbots). A week or so of data will show whether its a normal human being or not. Edit - obviously bounties wouldn't work for drone regions, but TBH they need attention anyway - both in the sense of ratbots and in the sense of being horrible places to live.

Now you've got a list of people who are either botting or account sharing. If its account sharing then that should be fairly easy to identify as the same peaks/troughs of rats killed will appear over time - or IP addresses/login times.

This is the point CCP should be handing the list to your senior GMs and get them to go have a look at how the player/ratbot behaves when something that isn't blue comes into system.

Its not rocket science. It does require a willingness to enforce the rules though.

Fanfest isn't far off anyway so we'll see whether that willingness exists.


It would be easy to spot 1 bot running for 23 hours, but how would you spot 10 bots running for 2.3 hours each?. Aslong as gametime is payed with isk it don't really matter for botters if they need to pay 300M or 3B a months, the bots are still going to make a huge profit.

ArtieLange
Posted - 2011.03.15 13:38:00 - [1721]
 

Originally by: Othran
Its not rocket science. It does require a willingness to enforce the rules though.


Therein lies the issue.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.15 14:29:00 - [1722]
 

Originally by: dexington
It would be easy to spot 1 bot running for 23 hours, but how would you spot 10 bots running for 2.3 hours each?. Aslong as gametime is payed with isk it don't really matter for botters if they need to pay 300M or 3B a months, the bots are still going to make a huge profit.


You know this continual "don't do anything for that's not going to work" approach from you is making you look REALLY bad don't you? I hope you're aware of that even if you are an alt. This is the last time I bother replying to you, life's too short Wink

Anyway the 10 botters run by one guy are probably RMT. As such you can be sure CCP will have thought of ways as RMT is their (current) sole focus.

What I suggested would be enough to catch people who leave their bot running while they work, then log onto main for the evening. If those people then have to resort to multiple accounts then it makes running the accounts a lot harder.

I think honest players would welcome that.

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.03.15 14:47:00 - [1723]
 

If you can't handle critique the internet is a dangerous place to post your ideas, not everyone will agree that half measures is a solid solution. I only pointed out an obvious and easy to exploit weakness in your plan, i never say that nothing should or should not be done.

Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.03.15 17:31:00 - [1724]
 

Originally by: Othran


You know this continual "don't do anything for that's not going to work" approach from you is making you look REALLY bad don't you? I hope you're aware of that even if you are an alt. This is the last time I bother replying to you, life's too short Wink

Anyway the 10 botters run by one guy are probably RMT. As such you can be sure CCP will have thought of ways as RMT is their (current) sole focus.

What I suggested would be enough to catch people who leave their bot running while they work, then log onto main for the evening. If those people then have to resort to multiple accounts then it makes running the accounts a lot harder.

I think honest players would welcome that.


1. someone poking holes in your ideas does not make them look bad. passing thoughts around like this are good IMO. but on the other hand they serve as a potential resource for the bot writers on how to avoid detection......

2. people botting for 8 hours a day would not equal being top of that list. further, at a straight shot, a mothership ratting for a few hours a day would likely end up higher on your list than a bot running 23/7. cross reference highest earner with those who played the most and you're likely on to something. but still not accurate nor inclusive.. at least *an* approach..

Elanor Vega
Posted - 2011.03.15 23:24:00 - [1725]
 

As topic regarding ISK-bank is redirecting all further posts to here now... bump... and quote last version of first post in that topic...


Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 15/03/2011 22:42:48
RMT and botting related discussion is now continuing on this thread.
Please try not to reply here anymore.
Thank you :)

Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 14/03/2011 08:39:13

Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com exposed
http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/09/in-isk-we-trust-iskbank-com-exposed-thousand-of-customers-outed/

Evenews24.com - Client list
http://www.evenews24.com/2010/03/09/iskbank-com-client-list/

Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com/ru Client List: Revised Edition
http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/11/iskbank-com-client-list-revised-edition/

Evenews24.com - official revised Iskbank customer list @ googledocs
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atu22IqpENk5dFMzMzAwWTdNX1lXelVpUUFlOWt0U1E&hl=en&authkey=CNK1-84L

Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com: The Vadim Interview
http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/14/iskbank-com-the-vadim-interview/

Evenews24.com article - Customers speak out
http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/10/iskbank-com-customers-speak-out/

GM Grimmi's comment about the issue
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1479579&page=5#132

Related:

CCP Sreegs posts about rmt, botting and upcoming announcements in fanfest.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1426740/author/CCP%20Sreegs

TenTonHammer article - The Daily Grind: Have you ever bought gold?
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/12/the-daily-grind-have-you-ever-bought-gold/

Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com Exposed: CSM Candidates Respond
http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/14/iskbank-com-exposed-csm-candidates-respond/

Elsewhere:

Massively article - EVE ISK buyers outed in database leak
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/10/eve-isk-buyers-outed-in-database-leak/#

Slashdot article - In Isk We Trust: the EVE Online IskBank Exposed
http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/03/10/1712207/In-Isk-We-Trust-the-EVE-Online-IskBank-Exposed

mmorpg.com article - EVE Online News - Iskbank.com Exposed
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/19890/Iskbankcom-Exposed

TenTonHammer article - EVENews24 Exposes Iskbank Scandal, Thousands of Customers Outed
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/96325


Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.03.16 02:49:00 - [1726]
 

Edited by: Consortium Agent on 16/03/2011 03:39:28
Originally by: Arnakoz
Edited by: Arnakoz on 15/03/2011 12:40:44
the Bot University page on reportBots is wholly inaccurate. all of these items have even been gone over multiple times in this very thread.

but, lets do it again... (sigh)



Let's not. Either you didn't read any of my posts in this forum or you didn't read the entire university page, but in either case let me address your question thusly:

You are treating each individual item as exactly that - an individual item. It is not one individual item but the combination of behaviors exhibited by these bots that make them so detectable. Furthermore, your post assumes I am instructing people to make judgments in a given amount of time, which I'm not. Patterns of behaviors may take minutes, hours or days to verify depending on the complexity of the bot, but they are virtually unmistakable once you see the patterns. Humans do not operate in the same way bots do, and I will not argue the merits of pattern detection over your list of reasons why you feel all of the behaviors being exhibited are wholly inaccurate.

In short, the university page clearly indicates it is patterns of behavior one should be observing, not one particular activity which amounts to a smoking gun. Even being on 23/7 isn't always a good indicator - for one, I tend to fall asleep with my game running (cuz I'm just that much of a geek to fall asleep playing Eve!) - for another I've had times where I've been able to play damn near 23/7. So, yes, there is a counter-argument to be made for each and every single behavior or activity I'm instructing people to be aware of, but I'm also clearly stating that it is the patterns of behavior which give away the bots, not any one single behavior. Take your list and combine them into activities being exhibited by one single player, repeatedly, with a visible pattern, over time, and then make your arguments again :)

For what it's worth, the system won't even take a report unless it meets a certain criteria of behaviors. If the behaviors selected don't pass the mustard, the user is notified and given a link to the university page to learn more about how to spot bots.

So, thanks for taking my bulleted items and reposting them here for me ;) Now please go read the words in-between them for the full picture.

EDIT: There is only one sure fire way to know if the toon is a bot... gank them. If they continue to fly around in a pod, unencumbered by the lack of a ship (mining bots warping to belts in a pod, haulers continue on to the end point of the mission... and return, etc. etc.) - chances are pretty good it's a bot ;P lol

If they scream and holler and say WTF! in local - then pay them for their ship, thank them for their time and go gank another suspect ;P lol

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.03.16 03:05:00 - [1727]
 

Originally by: Arnakoz
* This character is always online fighting PVE rats from server up to server down.
* This character always docks up or logs off whenever a neutral enters the system.
* This character fails to respond to requests for chat.
* This character gets stuck in warp bubbles I've placed in their suspected area of operation.
* This character remains in the same system from the time they log on until the time they log off.
* This character is part of a larger group of characters who fight NPC bots but in largely different locations.


this sounds about like every nullsec alliance out there. again, only definite here is playing 23/7 ....

as for the hualers... i've never been a hauler so i don't know. but i did notice something contradictory: in one point you say they run hauler missions, but then you say they don't create nor accept any contracts.. if you're running missions you're not accepting contracts. not sure what these two have to do with each other. and what does amarr have to do with haulers? really, i'm asking.


More no reading between the lines here. See my earlier post for an answer to your first question.

As for the haulers - it's very simple. Most human haulers make use of the contract system either for purchasing or selling items, or more likely to accept and complete courier contracts. If they are not creating or accepting any contracts, this can be a good indicator of a toon which may be using a bot when combined with the other behaviors, such as running missions 23/7, etc. in a repetitive pattern.

What does Amarr have to do with haulers? Another good, but simply answered question. Please take a look at all of the different faction haulers and tell me which one you would be most likely to choose to run L1 - L4 missions 23/7 in, and why. That will probably answer your question better than me just telling you that Amarr haulers are the most convenient for that purpose.

And when you're done with all of that... take a fly down to Kronsur (it's in empire). Spend a little time in the system. Tell me how many of those toons you see flying in and out of there back to back to back that *you* think are bots based on the behaviors I've listed on the university page. How do you know?

And lastly, nobody has ever said there isn't a chance for false positives - there is, however, things I have done and that CCP most likely does, to weed out the 'maybe-not-really-a-bot' from the 'omfg-most-definitely-a-bot' reports. No system is 100% accurate in this regard, and with human judgment comes human errors... but with the measures I've put in place... I can sleep at night knowing the chances of a false positive are slim. :)

Humans are the best pattern recognition machines ever built. No computer can beat us at it. So, until one does - it will always take human judgment based on the repetitive patterns of behavior exhibited by these bots to find them, report them, petition them and, with any luck, gank them back to the stone age before CCP lays the hammer down on them :)

X201207
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.16 04:08:00 - [1728]
 

I'm tired and I'm not going to take it anymore! Internet space ships

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2011.03.16 04:41:00 - [1729]
 

Originally by: ArtieLange
Did that AFK cloaking alliance ever kick off? I've got an alt I will never use for anything productive that's now in a cov-ops. I might be tempted to sit griefing people all day.

Nah. CCP made some changes to the netcode that means I can no longer play EvE at Australian prime time. So I cancelled the AFK cloaker thing till they fix it, which will be never apparently.

Hoping that somebody that can actually play will pick it up and do it though.

ArtieLange
Posted - 2011.03.16 12:03:00 - [1730]
 

Edited by: ArtieLange on 16/03/2011 12:03:42
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Originally by: ArtieLange
Did that AFK cloaking alliance ever kick off? I've got an alt I will never use for anything productive that's now in a cov-ops. I might be tempted to sit griefing people all day.

Nah. CCP made some changes to the netcode that means I can no longer play EvE at Australian prime time. So I cancelled the AFK cloaker thing till they fix it, which will be never apparently.

Hoping that somebody that can actually play will pick it up and do it though.


Bah, well that's a bunch of fanny batter. I might still send a ship out to afk-grief afk people.

Edit - do you think they made these changes so that you couldn't interfere with the paying botters? O_o

Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.03.16 13:03:00 - [1731]
 

Edited by: Arnakoz on 16/03/2011 13:04:58
Originally by: Consortium Agent


Let's not. Either you didn't read any of my posts in this forum or you didn't read the entire university page, but in either case let me address your question thusly:
.
.
.

EDIT: There is only one sure fire way to know if the toon is a bot... gank them. If they continue to fly around in a pod, unencumbered by the lack of a ship (mining bots warping to belts in a pod, haulers continue on to the end point of the mission... and return, etc. etc.) - chances are pretty good it's a bot ;P lol

If they scream and holler and say WTF! in local - then pay them for their ship, thank them for their time and go gank another suspect ;P lol


you made my point exactly. and i read the entirety of the university page, and noted the part of

While not all of these behaviors are exhibited by all miner bot programs, careful observation of their behaviors over time will demonstrate which of these behaviors they regularly exhibit with enough regularity to form a pattern. It is the regularly timed pattern of behavior that generally gives away the fact that the character is indeed a miner bot.


my point still remains: even combining a large number of your criteria is about as likely to be a real player as it is to be a bot - take all the traits that i list as being a matter of "afk player" - it is most of your points - and an afk player IS going to exhibit those traits because afk is afk. so unless "plays 23/7" is checked the chances are of it being a bot are about as good as having flipped a coin. moreover i think it is misleading: players will read it and start to think that every miner/hauler/ratter they see is a bot, b/c it exhibits some or many of those traits. "plays 23/7" and "continues as if still in a ship" are the only two traits i would say make it more than likely a bot. the rest, even combo's of the rest, lacking one of those two, is mere guess work.

using you're own example:

To determine if you've got a miner bot on your hand is easy enough to do. Start by requesting a chat with the suspected bot character. While this is not always a smoking gun, as we ourselves may tend to ignore chat requests from folks we don't know or don't trust, but it's a good jumping off point. If they fail to respond on multiple occasions, then the probability of them being a mining bot goes up. If they fail to respond to your chat request, fly to within a couple thousand meters of their ship (2000m) - if they immediately stop mining and warp off, usually in the direction of another belt, then the chances of you looking at a bot are high. ... [plus other miners in corp.]

when i mined i did so afk - looking at my mains screen mostly, and only checking the alts screen every few minutes. I got tired of people convo'ing/emailing asking me if i wanted to join their corp (they may have been testing if i were a bot, now that i think about it) so i set both to autoreject. which was equally true for local... didn't care, didn't look. and if/when i happened to notice ships approaching me i warped the hell away! ... why else would they approach if not to kill me? further i had other corp mates that had hi-sec mining alts, who likely played just the same as me since they were afk as well. sometimes we mined in the same system, sometimes we didn't. but mining in a group was pointless; so we didn't. so you would have pegged me as a bot. and my corp mates. and i would imagine every other REAL miner out there.

all i'm saying is that giving a list of such broadly scoped items, with a high chance of overlap, is not a good idea if you really intend to fight bots; as it will merely flood CCP with more non-bots to check, and enrage those players who are now certain that it was a bot and it didn't get banned (they did verify it with reportbots.com afterall! so it MUST be!) ... So give better examples, like the one about hauling in a pod, that was good. maybe ask CCP to give you lists that they think are good!

riverini
Gallente
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.03.16 18:12:00 - [1732]
 

I wonder if moving L4 to lowsec would help to curv the misison bot issue.. ?

same for better rat intel, nothing Sansha/Sleeper like, but something that throws some challenge...

Clea Vage
Posted - 2011.03.16 18:32:00 - [1733]
 

Originally by: riverini
I wonder if moving L4 to lowsec would help to curv the misison bot issue.. ?

same for better rat intel, nothing Sansha/Sleeper like, but something that throws some challenge...


1. That'd **** off a lot of players.
2. I'm 99% sure mission bots do L5 in low sec atm. Not sure how your proposal would affect anything, other than making LP worth more money since regular players might be reluctant to do them there.

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.03.16 19:53:00 - [1734]
 

To the top. Here's hoping for some signifigant meat on the annoucement at FanFest

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.03.16 21:50:00 - [1735]
 

Edited by: Consortium Agent on 17/03/2011 01:21:55
Originally by: Arnakoz

all i'm saying is that giving a list of such broadly scoped items, with a high chance of overlap, is not a good idea if you really intend to fight bots; as it will merely flood CCP with more non-bots to check, and enrage those players who are now certain that it was a bot and it didn't get banned (they did verify it with reportbots.com afterall! so it MUST be!) ... So give better examples, like the one about hauling in a pod, that was good. maybe ask CCP to give you lists that they think are good!


CCP, like me, does not divulge the information used to ascertain who is and who is not a bot. Furthermore, the terms and behaviors are broadly defined on purpose. Reportbots.com is merely a tool to assist users in finding and reporting bots to CCP and walks a fine line between behaviors that are known dead give-away's and behaviors which may be shared by players, hence the instruction and repeated expression of that fact that it is repetitive patterns of behaviors which make bots 'easy', rather than 'hard', to spot. Most of what the player gets to indicate when they file a report is one thing, but what the system does on the back-end is another. Combined they isolate accuracy far better than you will ever know not having written the back-end yourself. This is something you will merely have to have faith in the technology for, I'm afraid, and in the developer... in which case, me. I will tell you that I've got 18 years of development experience and I've written highly secure web applications for several federal agencies that if I told you about, I'd then have to kill you... and I don't mean in a 'pwn3d you're podded' kind of way, either <g>. But seriously, the engine was designed with your very concerns in mind, along with the concerns of the community, CCP and other involved third parties - some of which are at odds with each other, I understand, but there's a reason for that I also cannot tell you or I would have to then kill you - though I do mean in a 'pwn3d your podded' kind of way this time lol :)

If you lump all of your behaviors together and then watch those behaviors over time you'll see one overarching thing is different between human players and bots. Bots repeat the same steps over and over and over again very dutifully. They don't take breaks, they (typically) don't forget to turn on their lasers (as afk miners tend to do) and they repeat the same *exact* behaviors over and over and over. Humans have a certain chaos to them that a computer just can't match - human processes are random and chaotic, bot processes are serial (one after the other) or parallel (at the same time), and no amount of randomizing the behaviors can mimic a human player - there will always be a pattern that emerges, because random() in computer terms is never very random at all - and I don't think bot authors want to kill their bots coding chaos theory into them (in short there isn't enough computer power).

So, I do appreciate your concerns, and if you could tell me more about what you believe will make the university clearer to people like you who don't already have a perspective on the repetitive patterns of behavior exhibited by bots, I'll be more than happy to take your suggestions into consideration. ;)

EDIT: In your defense, however, I did run out of time to finish the CBE test system before being slammed with teaching a group of people how to write better code. The test was meant to re-enforce the concept of looking for repetitive patterns of behavior (and by repetitive I mean those that are distinctly being repeated in a pattern, and by pattern I mean those that have a distinct linear time signature, and by distinct linear time signature I mean... oh, well... you get the point, right? hahaha - damn us computer geeks, damn us all to h*ll! ;P)

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.03.16 21:54:00 - [1736]
 

Originally by: riverini
I wonder if moving L4 to lowsec would help to curv the misison bot issue.. ?

same for better rat intel, nothing Sansha/Sleeper like, but something that throws some challenge...


Nope. Hauler bots run the gauntlet (low and nullsec travel) all the time. Just check the killboards. Though it may dissuade some from going there - that still leaves plenty of L1 - L3's in high-sec, and they're still rewarding enough when you do them back to back to back 23/7, especially if you're running a fleet of bots like most of these guys tend to do. And, the loss of a hauler is a) not a big enough deterrent and b) not very costly if you're running a dead clone whose only purpose is to make you ISK while you're off doing something else ;)

Elzon1
Caldari
Shadow Boys Corp
Bloodbound.
Posted - 2011.03.17 00:02:00 - [1737]
 

Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde
To the top. Here's hoping for some signifigant meat on the annoucement at FanFest


I just want to see that they have an automated program almost ready to go for scanning through server data to find botting patterns/activity. I'm not sure where but I heard they are enhancing the reporting section so people can report bots more easily. Most likely the enhanced reporting feature will mean it will work in conjunction with the automated program to quickly get rid of the more obvious bots.

Can't wait for the weekend, should be interesting.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.03.17 00:36:00 - [1738]
 

Originally by: Arnakoz
i read the entirety of the university page, and noted the part of

While not all of these behaviors are exhibited by all miner bot programs, careful observation of their behaviors over time will demonstrate which of these behaviors they regularly exhibit with enough regularity to form a pattern. It is the regularly timed pattern of behavior that generally gives away the fact that the character is indeed a miner bot.




One more thought, and to help clarify for everyone else who reads this thread but doesn't go read the university page, it also states this (among many other things - spelling errors inclusive <g> lol):

All bots share some similar behaviors. They are online from the time the servers come online to the next time the go into maintenance. They fail to respond to multiple requests for chat. They typically stay in one solar system, with the exception of courier bots who generally stay within the same handful of constellations where missions take them. They generally come in multiples of bots, because why run just one, etc. It is the combination of behaviors and the exhibiting of repetitive patterns that gives these bots away. If you're here then I'm sure you've already seen lots of bots and are looking to help. Begin by observing the behaviors we note here, and those you might have read elsewhere in the forum threads and blogs on the internet, and with a little practice you'll notice that finding bots becomes second nature.

And, as an aside, the word 'pattern' in conjunction with the word 'behavior' and/or 'repetitive' shows up 18 times on the bot university page. I tried to make that point as crystal clear as possible (by being as repetitive about how repetitive the bots are as the bots themselves would probably be!). Bots are found through the repetitive patterns of behavior they exhibit. There, I've said it again ;)

Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Posted - 2011.03.17 10:22:00 - [1739]
 

If anyone thought RMTers or their clients would be lying low, no such luck.

NoahPegram (1-day alt) has bought 40bn worth of junk in the last few hours. Screenshot shows a list of his recent customers. If you know these people, let them know their isk's gonna disappear soon.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6387/rmtad.jpg

Petition is in.

GinFizz
Posted - 2011.03.17 10:37:00 - [1740]
 

Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
If anyone thought RMTers or their clients would be lying low, no such luck.

NoahPegram (1-day alt) has bought 40bn worth of junk in the last few hours. Screenshot shows a list of his recent customers. If you know these people, let them know their isk's gonna disappear soon.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6387/rmtad.jpg

Petition is in.


Nice, they RMTers/botters are totally screwed now when they get hit with a written warning followed by a 1 day ban!


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