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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Kengutsi Akira
Posted - 2011.03.09 11:01:00 - [1651]
 

Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 09/03/2011 11:03:36
Has Riverini published yet?

Also, looks like we were too much of "big meanies" for the CCP guy to come back...
that or he realized he made a mistake saying there would be news at fanfest

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.03.09 11:03:00 - [1652]
 

Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 09/03/2011 11:09:16

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1479579

^^


Jaik7
Posted - 2011.03.09 16:18:00 - [1653]
 

not letting win thread die.

this is important to us. we don't want cheaters to continue getting ahead of legitimate players by illegal means.

i am directly affected by this as a miner, my minerals are not nearly as valuable as they should be because botters are creating too much supply.

Avila Cracko
Posted - 2011.03.09 20:10:00 - [1654]
 


Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.03.09 23:37:00 - [1655]
 

In his blog on phishing CCP Sreegs said:

"It is important to note that phishing is not the only way your credentials or private information can be stolen. One example we've given a bit in the past is third-party applications such as bots. We spend some time reverse-engineering this code and there are very few cases where ANY "botting" application does NOT send information to the creator that you did not intend it to. There is also NO class of bot that does not violate the EULA and will not get your account actioned against when we detect it. In one case that springs immediately to mind a freely distributed piece of code had a time-bomb in it where on a certain date and time it transferred the contents of the wallets of everyone using it to the creator."

One wonders how much of the isk being sold came from bots that included such malware.

It also shows that a messy, interrelated issue bots, RMT, phishing, and account hacking is

Burnharder
Posted - 2011.03.09 23:44:00 - [1656]
 

So, who's going to kick up the biggest fuss about this? I was going to vote :p.

Kireiina
Posted - 2011.03.10 03:18:00 - [1657]
 


No one is going to kick up a fuss about it at the CSM because nobody believes CCP has any interest in doing anything about it.

Elzon1
Caldari
Shadow Boys Corp
Bloodbound.
Posted - 2011.03.10 03:34:00 - [1658]
 

Edited by: Elzon1 on 10/03/2011 03:40:29
Originally by: GM Grimmi
We are aware of the evenews24 situation and the leaked list being discussed here. At this time we cannot comment on the information in focus but we would like to use this opportunity to remind everyone that buying ISK for real money is a violation of our EULA and anyone doing so risks getting the ISK removed and punitive action against their accounts, including possible permanent bans.

While we would like to be more transparent about the methods and tools we use to fight RMT, botting and such in EVE we must maintain a level of secrecy in order to conduct successful operations. A presentation is scheduled at FanFest later this month where these matters will be discussed in some detail.


So, apparently something is going to be done about bots... secret though.

It would seem to be contradictory in that it is a secret plan and revealing it would defeat the purpose. Unless they implement it before, during, or immediately after fanfest.

Edit: forgot the link: Linketh

Bruce Kemp
Minmatar
Skull's Reloaded.
Posted - 2011.03.10 05:28:00 - [1659]
 

Its too late baby.

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2011.03.10 07:23:00 - [1660]
 

Originally by: Kireiina

No one is going to kick up a fuss about it at the CSM because nobody believes CCP has any interest in doing anything about it.



Hm, I'd phrase that differently: everyone believes that CCP is interested in doing nothing about it, since bots contribute much to PCU numbers and subscriptions, as well as their "legalized" RMT through PLEX.

Nina Mercedez
Posted - 2011.03.10 11:10:00 - [1661]
 

Originally by: Burnharder
So, who's going to kick up the biggest fuss about this? I was going to vote :p.


/me looks at the masses....

Here he is, we've found the voter.

/me forms a small gang, and commences to harang him.

0Lona 0ltor
Posted - 2011.03.10 13:38:00 - [1662]
 

CCP is a disgrace. When is the next EVE convention in the UK I plan to go dressed as a bot/robot and **** all CCP persons off. Would be epic if we ruined a meeting and got in the game mags as a protest against CCP not tackling the bot problem.

moneykeeper
Posted - 2011.03.11 06:53:00 - [1663]
 

Bump to stop CCP's strategy of ignore it and it will go away from working.

Bots are why I dont have an industrial alt. For an industrial alt to make sense it needs to make more isk than selling a plex plus the isk that could make in that time running missions. I'm guessing there's quite a few people who would have indy alts if they were economically viable.

But in this game only bot alts make sense. A dude with a hulk can't compete with a fleet of 6 mining bots working 24 hours per day. Nor can a pvper compete with people who have unlimited isk to spend on ships and fittings.

In eve the only way is by botting. Doing anything else is foolish.

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2011.03.11 14:59:00 - [1664]
 

Originally by: moneykeeper
Bump to stop CCP's strategy of ignore it and it will go away from working.

Bots are why I dont have an industrial alt. For an industrial alt to make sense it needs to make more isk than selling a plex plus the isk that could make in that time running missions. I'm guessing there's quite a few people who would have indy alts if they were economically viable.

But in this game only bot alts make sense. A dude with a hulk can't compete with a fleet of 6 mining bots working 24 hours per day. Nor can a pvper compete with people who have unlimited isk to spend on ships and fittings.

In eve the only way is by botting. Doing anything else is foolish.

Your one extra account vs their 6... Can see why CCP like bots....

Tho the real damage comes from the 0.0 belt ratting bots, injecting pure isk into the economy. They devalue both your isk and drive plex prices up, also making faction stuff massivley overpriced.

What is most annoying is 'old' CCP a few years ago (bitter vet checking in) would have cared about the quality of the game much more than the bottom line, and both done more and liased with the community more (tho the asshats in the community these days may have something to answer for here). As it is they have to keep Eve alive to fund WoD and DUST.

Heres awaiting the much - touted fanfest report.

Also: free bump. Why is this not on page 1?

riverini
Gallente
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.03.11 16:06:00 - [1665]
 

Edited by: riverini on 11/03/2011 16:06:28
title fixed...

riverini
Gallente
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.03.11 16:14:00 - [1666]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Originally by: moneykeeper
Bump to stop CCP's strategy of ignore it and it will go away from working.

Bots are why I dont have an industrial alt. For an industrial alt to make sense it needs to make more isk than selling a plex plus the isk that could make in that time running missions. I'm guessing there's quite a few people who would have indy alts if they were economically viable.

But in this game only bot alts make sense. A dude with a hulk can't compete with a fleet of 6 mining bots working 24 hours per day. Nor can a pvper compete with people who have unlimited isk to spend on ships and fittings.

In eve the only way is by botting. Doing anything else is foolish.

Your one extra account vs their 6... Can see why CCP like bots....

Tho the real damage comes from the 0.0 belt ratting bots, injecting pure isk into the economy. They devalue both your isk and drive plex prices up, also making faction stuff massivley overpriced.

What is most annoying is 'old' CCP a few years ago (bitter vet checking in) would have cared about the quality of the game much more than the bottom line, and both done more and liased with the community more (tho the asshats in the community these days may have something to answer for here). As it is they have to keep Eve alive to fund WoD and DUST.

Heres awaiting the much - touted fanfest report.

Also: free bump. Why is this not on page 1?


You are WRONG, most of the botting is done in empire, we are releasing an article soon on that.

Veebring Greetings
Posted - 2011.03.11 17:18:00 - [1667]
 

posting in an epic thread Surprised

CRA5HD0WN
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.11 19:36:00 - [1668]
 

Over 9000 reads.

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2011.03.11 19:59:00 - [1669]
 

Originally by: riverini
Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Originally by: moneykeeper
Quote pyramid



You are WRONG, most of the botting is done in empire, we are releasing an article soon on that.

Well if you use capslock, how can I possibly disagree? =P

Will be interesting reading the article. Whilst more botting may be done in empire, I highly doubt the empire bots are pulling the 800mil+ per day per bot that the 0.0 ones are. Mining no chance, mission bots might make a more significant contribution however.

Will await the new article with interest....

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.12 13:17:00 - [1670]
 

Yeah I don't believe for one second that mission running bots (which are relatively new) are injecting anywhere near the amount of NEW isk that null ratbots do.

I'm sure there's much more botting in empire but I don't believe it generates as much new isk.

We'll see.

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.03.12 13:50:00 - [1671]
 

Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 12/03/2011 13:52:09


Yes... however I bet that if someone would do some real math, the results could easily point to direction where amount of hisec bots would cover their smaller income / bot.

In fact I bet that this is one of the issues where rmt wing / bot operators don't want our attention to turn into.

We got to remember that running bot in hisec is after all, rather safe. How often you see ice/ore miners blown up... Yes hulkageddon is there but if you mine 23/7, losing one ship now and then doesn't change anything on yearly income of one bot.

If you got 5-10 bots mining in some system 23/7 almost every day thru the entire year, there is some serious isk to be made.

It is quite hilarious how some people always point finger only to 0.0, make this a political issue between some alliances or say that it's not that big of a deal... well it is.

I don't know much about bots running combat/courier missions or bots doing market 0.01 pvp, but the ones doing mining have very serious impact on mineral prices.

I can only wonder how big part from this goes to rmt market also.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.12 14:01:00 - [1672]
 

Yes but all of that is just moving EXISTING isk around. Yes thats where RMT is concentrated.

NEW isk is what bolloxes what passes for an economy - just like IRL.

Valari Nala Zena
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.12 14:07:00 - [1673]
 

Dunno what the market bots make, but i can imagine they prolly make the most, how do you even detect who is doing that?

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.12 14:25:00 - [1674]
 

Originally by: Valari Nala Zena
Dunno what the market bots make, but i can imagine they prolly make the most, how do you even detect who is doing that?


Easily. Every time you modify a market order there is a 100 isk (IIRC) transaction charge.

Even if CCP are unable to log every transaction charge it should be easy to see which characters are way above the normal level - and by "way above" I mean trading 23/7/365, not normal traders - who are pretty aggressive IME.

Thats the problem a lot of us have with CCP - nobody is saying "you must eradicate 100% of bots" but its hard to understand how some bots (even if they're scamspam bots - Jita etc) still exist after all these years. Its not rocket science.

The thing to remember is that while trade bots make their owners a shedload of isk they do NOT generate new isk. That comes from missions and npc bounties.

Killing the bots which generate new isk should be CCPs #1 priority as it both screws up the economy and is essentially a free source of RL money for RMT companies. Then move onto the rest.

We'll see but I'm not holding my breath.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.03.12 15:52:00 - [1675]
 

Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard?



Couldn't that easily be logged by the client?

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.03.12 16:07:00 - [1676]
 

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard?

Couldn't that easily be logged by the client?


if you add a little random delay then it's hard to detect any patterns, or you would atleast get a very high amount of false positives.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.12 19:01:00 - [1677]
 

Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard?

Couldn't that easily be logged by the client?


if you add a little random delay then it's hard to detect any patterns, or you would atleast get a very high amount of false positives.


BS.

In terms of market bots there is a clear trail of transaction charges.

In terms of ratting bots there is a clear trail of bounties.

You can't disguise that over the course of weeks. CCP may not have the resources to track ALL the indicators but they are going to have to up their game very soon - either that or Eve ends up with an even worse reputation for "exploiters".

You CAN exploit in Eve.

What you cannot do is hide the tracks of bots.

If you can hide them reliably then Eve is ****ed - and so is anything else CCP does for it'll be a case of "oh that's the company which runs Eve, don't go near them".

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.03.12 19:33:00 - [1678]
 

Originally by: Othran
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard?

Couldn't that easily be logged by the client?


if you add a little random delay then it's hard to detect any patterns, or you would atleast get a very high amount of false positives.


In terms of market bots there is a clear trail of transaction charges.

In terms of ratting bots there is a clear trail of bounties.


The argument was that bots mimic human behaviour and if they loop the same input sequence over and over, all CCP needs to do is find one bot monitor it's behaviour and then would be able to detect all bots by looking for the same input sequence.

It's has nothing to do with transaction trails...

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.12 19:45:00 - [1679]
 

Originally by: dexington
It's has nothing to do with transaction trails...


Yeah whatever Mr Alt #2.

Keep spinning. Nobody believes the BS anymore...

Freelanc3r
H A V O C
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.03.12 22:09:00 - [1680]
 

Hi riverini

Look how dumb you are considering the NC are the biggest RMT buyers on iskbank, perhaps you should start with your own alliance then your coalition first.



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