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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:09:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Aessoroz on 07/12/2010 16:08:56
I propose a three prong attack.

-Sniping alpha maelstroms at every low sec gate where 300+ macro haulers per minute pass through
-Afk cloaker bombers in every russian system
-Suicide ganks on a massive level in ice belts across the empire

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:15:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: oldmanst4r
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
Whats's blink? guess i'll search after I get my daughter from basketball practice



Hey, your almost as old as I am! Have you had your first prostate exam yet? They are terrible, trust me.


LOL.. yeah just had my first...the "simple" one the doctor does in 60 seconds or so.

All I can say is thank god I'm not .gaay.


Still need to figure out this "blink" thing

Soma Khan
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:47:00 - [123]
 

man this thread is really going places

Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari
Elder Tribes
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:51:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
Originally by: oldmanst4r
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
Whats's blink? guess i'll search after I get my daughter from basketball practice



Hey, your almost as old as I am! Have you had your first prostate exam yet? They are terrible, trust me.


LOL.. yeah just had my first...the "simple" one the doctor does in 60 seconds or so.

All I can say is thank god I'm not .gaay.


Still need to figure out this "blink" thing


You're just too cramped up. Relax and use more lotion next time, you'll be fine.


I'm also feed up btw....

riverini
Gallente
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.12.07 21:04:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Umega
If you really want CCP to address the bot use.. do so in a manner that doesn't hurt their wallet, and they might add some haste to the matter since I'm sure they are aware the vast majority of legit players of the game don't like it, at all.

Get CSM to bust their balls about it, bust their balls in petitions, slap the issue across their face. If it makes headlines, just like '18 months'.. they will respond.

So how can they do it without hurting their wallet, why not make it more enjoyable for the players as well too..

1) Players file petitions. CCP investigate.. if confirmed.. Post the character on this site in a list of confirmed Bot-users. Lets make it known who is using bots, what players, what corps, what alliances take part and to what degree.

2) 3-month Kill Rights granted on that player.. for everyone. And it never disappears til the 3 month penality is up. If they continue to bot after that.. Kill rights for all again.

3) Break their ability to cloak and use unprobe-able mods. They want to break the game and rules and cheat.. break them.

4) Design a simple program that takes note when a player is adjusting buy/sell orders 23/7. Ban him not from the game, but from the station first offense.. spit him out of the station in pod/ship whatever he is in, red n flashy for all to shot. Does it again, ban the player from even entering a region. does it again in another region.. banned entering that region.

Remember.. CCP owns your character and assets. They can do whatever they want with them. With these methods.. it gives players the chance to take action in entertaining ways, while CCP gets to keep making money off their subs. How many bot users will simply hide til it blows over, keeping their character active so they can work up skills? Quite a few, I'm sure.

And to the people purchasing Isk on RMT sites.. you people are failures. Complete Failures. I get people purchase PLEX for sale in game to get iskies for PvP pewpew. That's legit. Trying to save a buck cause your rl broke ass can't afford the legit manner, and you suck ass in game to make enough isk on your own that you have to go the RMT route.. ****ing Failures and probably dumber than **** eating monkeys. You people are the reason they exist.

Anyone that argues against some sort of action taken against bots is a bot user themselves. Gank'em.. repeatedly. Til their voice disappears from the forums forever from them quiting.


Shamefully, even if your proposition is tempting, you need to keep in mind that the field must be leveled to all players (infracting or non-infracting)

Am inclined to think if the micro-transaction stuff would be an RMT killer.

Pr0m Queen
Posted - 2010.12.07 21:17:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Aessoroz
Edited by: Aessoroz on 07/12/2010 16:08:56
I propose a three prong attack.

-Sniping alpha maelstroms at every low sec gate where 300+ macro haulers per minute pass through
-Afk cloaker bombers in every russian system
-Suicide ganks on a massive level in ice belts across the empire


While I see no problem with 1st and 3rd statement, 2nd is disturbing.
Can you show us any solid proof that all russians are evil or use bots or do any such things? I think you don't have it.
As for me, I know for a fact that russian players DO REPORT others for botting if they suspect it.

You've read an article on that so-called "news" site and decided you know the truth all of a sudden? Of course not, that article is well aimed and serves it's own purpose.
In real world it's not nationality that makes you want to use a bot, it's your own greed. 99% of russian players play EVE for same reasons as everyone else - fun, some sort of escape from RL that it offers - thing like that. 99% of US players do too. And 1% maybe does botting. Know who those people are? Goldsellers. They don't usually care about what the game is, what they need to do - they just use bots. If they won't be able to use bots, they'd use cheap manpower.
If you want to know real faces that sell ISK in EVE - look at every major alliance leaders, not just russians. For example Atlas had pretty rotten renter empire, IT has it now. They accumulate funds from rent, they don't have to run any bots - they "run" real people, all those nubs from empire that wanted to go nullsec, caberears, miners, pvpers - doesn't matter as long as their corps pay the rent. Do you know what rent you need to pay to be IT renter? 10***. Compare it to something like 800-900kk for renting in droneregs - maybe that' the reason there's a lot more renters?
As for motivation and why NC got recently beaten there (even though we all know it was PL drawing their attention on 2nd front), didn't NC learn anything from Atlas failure? I personaly been in C-J battle where Atlas left the field and XiX & Co won, like 4-5 month ago or so. It was a clean victory for DRF... and if you ask any of their pilots - do they fight for real cash or for fun, honor and adrenaline rush, I'm sure they won't even understand the first part of the question. Have they ever saw any money profit from their game? Hell no, don't be stupid. I tell you - you want to see a real RMT king, then go ask Sir **** what he does for living Wink

OP is making fun of himself and his alliance. NC got beaten in dronelands, now he thinks it's because some sort of "better cause" gave russians the strenght to beat NC blob? Well, it's not only childish, it's plain stupid. First of all XiX & allies have blobs of almost same size as NC, 2nd - how the hell they'd have any motivation for RL cash? Pray tell me how you think they do it? Distribute the profit among members? How much that would be? 1 dollar per person per month? Nope, you got beaten by 3000+ man blobs just beacuse those people threat dronelands as their home. Russian tenacity has nothing to do with money. Same thing happened in south, where AAA, against all odds, regained it's strenght and is fighting to take back it's territory (AAA is half russian alliance, just so you know). And if we're talking about where else you can see russians fighting for some just cause - in NC you have Bricks and Stella, two more solid "BFF's" that are all about pvp. In south you have Stain Empire, you have what's left of ROL after all ***s left to join WN.
Those are all good alliances, Majesta's also good. At least used to be.

P.S. sprry for typos, can't be bothered to read through it all again, i'm sure there are some. maybe later, bb hf

DUYSheep
Posted - 2010.12.08 01:02:00 - [127]
 

DAMAGE CONTROL

CCCC
C
C
CCCC

chrisss0r
The Lowbirds
Posted - 2010.12.08 02:31:00 - [128]
 

russians bot? never

riverini
Gallente
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.12.08 02:47:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: riverini on 08/12/2010 02:47:14
Quote:

Considering the ammounts you just described, it seems there must be huge demand from eve population to buy isk. How many customers you supported?

Around 300 are on my msn. With a daily request that not absorb more than 80% of my income
i do daily around.

How much si the average transaction and how you deliver the isk?

500ml x 12.I usually wait to have orders for 20b at minimum, so once every 4-5 days i make a new account, transfer the isk in various amounts, rarely 500000, more like 455448 , than make contacts, this account will be banned in 3-8 day usually cause he made like 20x contacts between 500ml and 5b (contracts).

Average order is 2-3b so 90$ for each transfer.

Could you describe little bit how you use the bots to generate isk you sell later on?

How i use the bot do everything alone, including re-start after server downtime, i do only some daily check, like if all bot are alive, (only way to kill them is by using a blue spy for tackle one of my bot)
anyway if a bot dies, he transfers information of hex code, of the killer, to others bots, who place it on a blacklist. So after the first loss, all others bots, if the “blacklisted” blue enter on sys, warp to safe and cloak up.

To explain, the bot does find the NPC´s, kills them, reloads ammo and extracts loot?

I don´t make them loot, unless is an officer-faction spawn. They have an exact list of npc to kill (they chain) and npc to loot. Usually i chain all spawn 1,5ml x 3 + to every 20 min a good bot does, 12-15ml
that means that a bot user pretty much can lose a fleet fitted drake every hour or a carrier daily
or a ms every month and still be in green with profit.

The average bot goes from 400 to 600ml day of liquid isk + officer+faction, so from 12 to 18b month
+ extra if you are lucky what officer/faction dropped. That means pretty much play eve as immortal, since none of what you lose, touches you for really. Where maybe others played years to reach a ms or a titan.




The Full interview is in the evenews24 site, this... just... i don't even... ShockedMadMadMad

Seriously, is CCP gonna do something about RMT?? Surprised

R

Trajan Ultor
Posted - 2010.12.08 03:02:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: riverini

The Full interview is in the evenews24 site, this... just... i don't even... ShockedMadMadMad

Seriously, is CCP gonna do something about RMT?? Surprised

R


What you think ?

Neo Gabriel
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2010.12.08 04:21:00 - [131]
 

At least they stopped deleting threads, so its a sign tehy are not pretending its not a problem. If they don't take care of this once and for all the game will die.

PS: If they dont ban eveyrone taht rmts and installs a warden type program i will cancel my accounts, because it will prevent future botting.

PSS: They also need to fix the client code so people cant inject python.

Its also sad since people have been doing rmt and cheating for many years and they never do anything about it.

Why should i ever run lv4s in highsec when some guy with 3 pcs can make 20bil a month w/o effort at all?

aronne
Posted - 2010.12.08 09:55:00 - [132]
 

I'm considering unsub. due to this issue. Better ccp find a solution asap and destroy all isk made in this way.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.08 10:01:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Aessoroz

-Sniping alpha maelstroms at every low sec gate where 300+ macro haulers per minute pass through
-Afk cloaker bombers in every known 0.0 botting system
-Suicide ganks on a massive level in ALL belts across empire


Slightly altered your post but I agree, since CCP cant be bothered todo anything I guess it is up to players once again to do something.

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.08 10:06:00 - [134]
 

Spam posts removed. Please keep the discussion on topic.


Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.12.08 10:08:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Neo Gabriel
PS: If they dont ban eveyrone taht rmts and installs a warden type program i will cancel my accounts, because it will prevent future botting.



If they did start using a warden type program like WoW does then I'd probably cancel my account.

Uninstalling WoW and then removing the left over Blizzard files, tends to mess up your system. Which, then is much simpler to reformat your hard drive to sort out the problem.

Lady Aja
Posted - 2010.12.08 10:25:00 - [136]
 

what annoys me the most is the blatent exploitsing of trial accounts to run macro magnates to farm fee isk..

followed closly by the corp hoping mission running isk farmers in hi sec mission hubs.
you cant war dec these pricks as they insta jump into a new corp the moment a new dec comes through.


ccp dont give a flying **** about the harm they are doing to this game.

CCP FU! do your ****ing job.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.08 11:05:00 - [137]
 

Warden sucks, glider can run freely without warden even noticing.

Change the mechanics of mining making it more hands on and not point & click.

Change NPCs AI make them smarter, make them warp jam, use EW more and warp off if in danger, this should apply to missions too

Change the UI so it isnt designed to favour botters

Botters can then keep their 982745983749823 botting accounts but will have to play more :P

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.08 12:29:00 - [138]
 

I logged on after DT with a thought, based on Dotlan I asked myself "well if theres the option to see where all the NPC'ing is happening, then why not take advantage of those stats", sadly the stats were based on 24hours which werent really all that helpful.

If there was an option "Number of NPCs killed in the last 1 hour" or "Average number of rats killed in the last 24 hours" maybe we could work out macro hot spots, for example a bot can freely rat 23.5/7 so the systems he is ratting is will have a higher ratting average than lets say a person who rats for 2 hours.

As for macro miners which you guys are still neglecting to include in this problem, "Number of asteroids mined in the last hour" similar stats would at least give players the ability to intervene.

While I feel CCP should be ultimately the ones to deal with this problem, I am sure if CCP introduced stats useful for us to use, players could at least hunt botters.

I am now officially bitter about bots

Syme
Gallente
Umbra Scientia Muneris
Posted - 2010.12.08 12:30:00 - [139]
 

I am saddened by the sheer extent of botting. Although it means that I can’t compete with the botters and the buyers of RMT isk, I can do passably well enough not to feel discouraged from playing the game.

The issue for me is how the bots are effectively stopping newer players from engaging in parts of the game that used to be a standard part of learning the game and building starting capital, i.e. mining.

Our corp used to mine its own ore for production and ice to run our POS. Doing this would get the whole corp together and let newer players engage with older players and earn decent isk, beyond what they would earn on their own. Now we don’t bother; mineral and ice prices are so low that it no longer makes sense to mine low end mins ourselves.

Ram Strider
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.12.08 12:42:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Ram Strider on 08/12/2010 12:43:17
Im gonna feed you in the bot if you dont tell me what RMT is?

ps just ban every russian and chinese player from all online games, they all hack and cheat and sell ingame items on ebay, everyone knows this

Lilla Kharn
Amarr
Posted - 2010.12.08 12:54:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: Lilla Kharn on 08/12/2010 12:55:48
RMT=Real Money Trading.

Trading ISK or in-game items for real world money.

To put my two cents in, I really like how EVE does not have a client side detection. It means I don't have to deal with something like PunkBuster or GameGuard screwing something else up on my computer because it runs the wrong way. I like being able to run two accounts at a time so I can jump my own carrier without having to scream for people to get on. (Disregard the trolls coming from the previous sentence.)

However, botting and macro'ing does bother me. Not just RMT. How is it fair to me as an honest player that I can rat or run plexes or mission for 5 hours or so, then go to school or work while the guy next to me can go to school and work and come back and still be doing all that with no input? To comment on the replacing a MS in 1-2 days, they are supercaps. I mean come on, they aren't supposed to be ships that are expendable to that extent. I miss the days where flying one actually meant something, that owning something in this game meant something great.

No, we shouldn't care about the other person and how they make their ISK, but it's a shame that those who don't play the game at all still get farther than the majority of those that do play the game. When did that become logical?

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.08 12:55:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Ram Strider
Edited by: Ram Strider on 08/12/2010 12:43:17
Im gonna feed you in the bot if you dont tell me what RMT is?

ps just ban every russian and chinese player from all online games, they all hack and cheat and sell ingame items on ebay, everyone knows this



KIAEddz is German :P and according to some of these sites, the best providers are from the US

Dagny Bronstein
Posted - 2010.12.08 12:59:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Dagny Bronstein on 08/12/2010 13:15:30
Edited by: Dagny Bronstein on 08/12/2010 13:04:31

Why should the players exert effort to fight this problem?

If you like padding your killboard that's fine but at the end of the day the only way this problem can be solved is by CCP changing game mechanics and making a more serious effort in locking down the client.

Trying to "solve" this issue by ganking botters is like fighting the hydra - maybe you could really manage to clear a small part of the EVE universe but in that case the RMT guys everywhere else would rejoice because less competition + perceived higher risk (for the ISK provider not the customer) = more profit for them.

And CCP is of course very hesitant to take more than symbolic measures:
for one, nobody can know for sure how the market would react (remember when +4 implants that are 22m now were 15m before Unholy Rage? less bots = less LP, less minerals but also less ISK -- prices for ships might go way up or the lack of ratting bots might cause some deflation (less likely imo as a large part of that ISK seems to go into the pockets of supercap builders and probably doesn't get released into the general economy)
while on the other hand taking serious measures against automation can easily ruin gameplay and cost you lots of subscribers (Jagex apparently lost 60,000 Runescape subscribers after making massive gameplay changes to make botting more difficult).

In my personal opinion miners are the big unknown in the equation - you cannot know how many of them "casually" use bots (i.e. not 23.5/7, only for personal income), you cannot know how many of those that don't use bots only mine because they can do it semi-afk (while doing other work) and as a result you cannot know how they would react to the introduction of mining minigames.
Probing down mining sites in high-sec isn't difficult, isn't dangerous, doesn't require high in-game skills and can be very profitable - yet you see many people still mining belts. What should this tell us?
Are miners just dumb, too lazy to use the scanner or does the lack of automation for scanning make these sites so underused?

(my own agenda in this whole matter is that I think 0.01 ISK station trading is stupid but necessary - so CCP should give us some scripting interface that allows traders to compete directly via algorithms - pay SCC fees for the frequency at which you are allowed to pull data/adjust orders and have your bot executed directly on CCPs EVE servers; but I guess that's just a pot dream Neutral
however, I feel like raising the point that you can have players compete over the most efficient method of automation as well, forcing them to live completely without automation is not necessarily the best approach).

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:21:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Dagny Bronstein


If you cant beat them, join them




Your concerns have already been noted, so I will sum up what WILL happen if things remain, more bots + more people leaving, soon enough eve will be Bots Online according to the current stats approx 20% of active only players are botting or have the potential to :P

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:21:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 23/05/2011 02:13:29
-

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:47:00 - [146]
 

RMT is bad. Botting is worse.

Two ways to fight this:

Punish the BUYERS of RMT harder
Also promote more the usage of GTC's if you are in need of isk - maybe a login screen from time to time saying "RMT is bad, GTC is good". For those people who do not understand: for each isk sold to the RMT guys, CCP suffers a financial loss (the isk would have bought from CCP normally instead of the RMT) thus the funds for EVE are lower than they should be.

Change GAMEPLAY so that botting isn't easy any more
For example rootkits like punkbusters won't help, there are always ways around this. But if you have gameplay that cannot be automated then you get automatically rid of bots.

Best examples for bad gamedesign: Ratting, hauling stuff, invention grinding, mining, PI - all bad because they only promote grinding and thus makes botting desirable and easy.

Best example for good gamedesign: Exploration. It is not easy to handle exploration automatically - if they add some more variable elements (like space-structure so that you don't have a perfect sphere for the probe radius but instead dented potatoes) exploration will be even more interesting and less prone to botting. Now ... if you would change ratting, mining, PI and such also to make it a lot less repetitive, less grind and more interactive with unpredictable elements you will automatically have a better game PLUS tons of fewer bots!


The interview on Evenews24 claims that CCP isn't doing anything against bots because CCP would profit from bots for all the GTC the buy. That is complete idioticy. Of coure CCP do NOT like bots. That guy said he sold 1.2 trillion isk during nine months - that are 1700 GTCs he stole from CCP (they could almost hire a new dev for that money!) and how many GTC did he use himself? 90? 100? So still 1600 GTC in the negative for CCP. It is total nonense that CCP doesn't want to do anything against bots because they would profit from the bots - that is 100% wrong.

And all the people whining: Yes, YOU can do something against RMT and bots. Tell everyone and your friends how bad RMT and go to 0.0 and kill the botters. You can hurt the botters quite a lot - if you want.

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:50:00 - [147]
 

The biggest problem are the buyers because without out the buyers there would be no sellers.



My obvious statement of the day!

Jaqel Broadside
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:54:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Jaqel Broadside on 08/12/2010 13:59:41
Edited by: Jaqel Broadside on 08/12/2010 13:56:04
Most of the botting problems could be solved immediately with the following:

1) Remove local -> Removes the information used by botters to warp and cloak.
2) Cloaking can only be continuous for a short period of time, after which the cloak burns out. Cloaking for transport works fine as jump gates "allow" cool down time - timer reset.
3) Remove sovereignty, free space should allow anyone to go try and take it by force at any time.
4) Stop putting high isk value at static sites.
5) Remove all static sites and make them scannable only - no static asteroid belts, NPC sites, complexes etc
6) Stop penalising high sec play and putting ever more ISK into null sec - up and coming players have to be able to challenge established players - give them the means to do so.
7) Stop creating expensive all out GANK ships like Titans and Motherships. No one ship should be that all encompassing that a few players can dominate regions.
8) Ban any kind of wealth transfer system to trial accounts above a few 100K isk - ie by trade or transfer ISK or named contract. Allow market and open contracts only.
9) NPCs should hunt players doing repetative play as NPCs do in FW or if you have bad sec in a region. As all good commanders would in RL, they'd hunt the main protagonists.
10) Limit play time to a maximum of a set number of hours per 48 hours - people HAVE to sleep bots dont.
11) Reward interactive play, monitor chat channels and if repetative or no chat exists from players then they are flagged as bots -> easy investigation.
12) It should be easy to spot any program running on a computer that interfaces with the APIs that allow botting to be performed. Microsoft should be able to tell you how to spot these programs easily.

By nerfing hisec activities all CCP has been doing is raising the bar on people being able to afford to challenge established nullsec players.

There simply CANNOT be that many players earning the amount of ISK required to fund these activities - you already know who they are so why the hell haven't you banned them years ago !

START REWARDING INTERACTIVE PLAY A WHOLE LOT MORE.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:58:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Jaqel Broadside

11) Reward interactive play, monitor chat channels and if repetative or no chat exists from players then they are flagged as bots -> easy investigation.


Because people who don't talk much are not really people, amirite? Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Jaqel Broadside

12) It should be easy to spot any program running on a computer that interfaces with the APIs that allow botting to be performed. Microsoft should be able to tell you how to sppot these programs easily.


And everyone knows that MS Windows is the only operating system on the planet, of course.

Seriously?

Jaqel Broadside
Posted - 2010.12.08 14:06:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Jaqel Broadside

11) Reward interactive play, monitor chat channels and if repetative or no chat exists from players then they are flagged as bots -> easy investigation.


Because people who don't talk much are not really people, amirite? Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Jaqel Broadside

12) It should be easy to spot any program running on a computer that interfaces with the APIs that allow botting to be performed. Microsoft should be able to tell you how to sppot these programs easily.


And everyone knows that MS Windows is the only operating system on the planet, of course.

Seriously?


I take it getting in touch with Unix and Mac operating systems engineers is beyond the scope of the internet or the telephone ???

And yes most people speak in a chat channel,,, I see you can even be bothered to post on here.


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