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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.03.01 13:30:00 - [1351]
 

Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 01/03/2011 13:32:04
Removed quoted text that is no longer in the thread - Adida

PLEX do not cost CCP any income. If PLEX really did allow players to play for 'free' in the grand scheme of things, CCP would not have implemented them.

To create a PLEX, a player first has to buy a game time code either from CCP or from a retailer. The player converts that game time code into into a PLEX in-game, and either stores it, sells it to another for ISK, or blows it up. If the player uses the PLEX he created, he effectively paid for his game time as though he had bought a 30-day subscription, and CCP loses nothing. If the player sells the PLEX for ISK, he just paid for the game time of the buyer [and got ISK in return for his real-world money], but now has to buy game time for his own account. If the player gets the PLEX blown up, he has thrown away the price of a 30-day subscription, basically giving CCP the price of a PLEX for free.

Either way, CCP has made at least the same amount it would have had it sold the game time code directly to the PLEX buyer. In fact, CCP makes more if players destroy PLEX, since a destroyed PLEX represents destroyed game time. PLEX also increases its income by allowing those who would not otherwise be able to afford multiple accounts, purchase GTC through proxies [aka anyone who sells PLEX in the game]. So arguably, botters actually increase revenue for CCP by increasing the demand for PLEX and thus for game time codes. It is a question of volume, not of price; CCPs profits are tied to volume of PLEX sold [and thus GTC converted], not to how much ISK a PLEX costs. This is why I posted elsewhere that CCP has zero financial incentive to deal with botters and macroers unless their users engage in RMT transactions.

One can of course argue that CCP has some sort of moral obligation to pursue those who violate the EULA or who simply 'cheat.' But even if the developers would like to eliminate botters and macroers from their game, CCP has limited resources to any single task. The amount of resources dedicated to something that might actually reduce CCP's income would understandably be small.

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
Posted - 2011.03.01 14:02:00 - [1352]
 

You guys should find this hilarious...

For the last couple of weeks, my corporation has been greifing an alliance - Wardecs, camping the pipe to their 0.0 home, afk cloakers etc.

One guy in particular has parked a few of his alts in their space, particularly the ratting systems, where he afk cloaks most of the day, every day. If he happened to be around while targets were out, he'd probe and blackops bridge for us etc. You might argue about the lameness of these tactics etc but that is beside the point. A few days ago, his alt accounts received mails stating that they had been banned for 3 days, reason: use of a macro/bot.

Really? These accounts that had been sat perfectly inactive? Not killed rats, not mined, not done anything? What exactly were they macroing? He was asked to explain why he was logged in all the time, as this was highly suspicious, as opposed to just logging in and probing when he needed to. Apparently this is behavior exhibited by RMTers.

He appealed and luckily got the bans lifted, but the whole thing caused megalols amongst the corp. Perhaps the funniest thing in my eyes, wasn't the lack of reasoning, but the fact that it was only a 3 day ban... Seriously, that is supposed to stop these botters? Hardly the kind of punishment i'd class as "unholy rage".







Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.03.01 14:09:00 - [1353]
 

Originally by: cyclobs

not entirely true.]

You're forgetting the fact it cost around 20 USD plus the 1 month? to make a new account. So really CCP will make more money from permabanning bots. especially if they go through a lot every month.


hmm, well initially no - regular players who bot aren't going to make new accounts, and will likely stop playing altogether, while the RMT guys - yes, they will burn thru accounts. i suppose the question would become is there more $ made from regular player bots than there would be from RMT + initial setup bots. no clue here. i would ponder that there are vastly more regular player bots than RMT.

Burnharder
Posted - 2011.03.01 14:11:00 - [1354]
 

Originally by: Darod Zyree
Edited by: Darod Zyree on 01/03/2011 09:02:28
Originally by: Montgomery Crabapple
I would have thought botting loses money for CCP. I'm sure someone has pointed it out in the previous 40 pages. The income can be used to but Plex... so these people are probably not paying for their game time anyway.


Plex has to be bought first before it can be sold in game, so someone did pay RL money for the bots player's game time and received ISK in return.




Thanks. Another thing about Eve I didn't know before. I thought CCP were just giving them away for ISK. See my other thread, "I'll always be a noob". :p

Burnharder
Posted - 2011.03.01 14:14:00 - [1355]
 

So if bots use screen capture and OCR, the only technical solution is a protected media pathway (DRM), possible in Vista/7 (not sure if it's possible with a D3D window, in an efficient way, however). But even then, the PMP requires the entire pathway to be protected, including monitor, otherwise you could just input the output of your graphics card into another machine and bot from that (more complex bot, but possible nonetheless).

So this is one instance, probably the only instance, where I've actually found something DRM and the protected media pathway might actually be good for. It's just that hardly anyone has hardware that would fully support it.


Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Amarr
Posted - 2011.03.01 14:54:00 - [1356]
 

Houm... and what about fighting paid-for 3rd party bots with CCP free bots?

Let's say, add a skill, "miner automatization". Trimmed in such a way, that it renders X% more mineral than the average miner operation but only in the long run (FAI, if the average miner mines 2 hours a day, then "automatization" would turn X% more yield each 23 hours: would be better, but not overwhelmingly better, and "manual" miners could just mine X% longer to compete)

The details could be discussed, but the point would be, this "automatization skill" would be for "free" whereas 3rd party bots are to be bought. Why spend x dollars or euros when you can get something similar for free?

Additionally, CCP could trim the EULA as to begin cancelling accounts for 3rd party botting, once they provided a legit way to "fulfil" such a "need". Much as GTC are OK and RMT is Not-OK, CCP-botting could be a tool, both social, psychological and legal, to smash 3rd party botting.

And I think it would work better than a escalation of conflict between software developers, with CCP adding barriers and 3rd parties leaping over them over and over again.

Just thinking a bit outside of the box, huh. Confused

Burnharder
Posted - 2011.03.01 15:17:00 - [1357]
 

Originally by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Houm... and what about fighting paid-for 3rd party bots with CCP free bots?

Let's say, add a skill, "miner automatization". Trimmed in such a way, that it renders X% more mineral than the average miner operation but only in the long run (FAI, if the average miner mines 2 hours a day, then "automatization" would turn X% more yield each 23 hours: would be better, but not overwhelmingly better, and "manual" miners could just mine X% longer to compete)

The details could be discussed, but the point would be, this "automatization skill" would be for "free" whereas 3rd party bots are to be bought. Why spend x dollars or euros when you can get something similar for free?

Additionally, CCP could trim the EULA as to begin cancelling accounts for 3rd party botting, once they provided a legit way to "fulfil" such a "need". Much as GTC are OK and RMT is Not-OK, CCP-botting could be a tool, both social, psychological and legal, to smash 3rd party botting.

And I think it would work better than a escalation of conflict between software developers, with CCP adding barriers and 3rd parties leaping over them over and over again.

Just thinking a bit outside of the box, huh. Confused


Interesting. When I played X2, I'd set up trading routes and defence between my factories and then put it on SETA and go to work. When I came home, I'd have made millions (!). The problem for me was once I'd figured out how to get the best ship and kit in game, I lost interest in it. The challenge had gone completely and with it the fun and interest.

But in general if you're going to do this, you might as well go the whole hog and have a user scripting language. Very simple commands in the command set of course. Indeed, I suggested this in beta and had my trousers taken down and my bum smacked on the forums for doing so :p. At the time my interest was in reducing the repetitive strain injury I was getting in my mouse hand.

It wouldn't destroy the cash/isk market however but it would put a halt to 3rd party botting. To be honest I'm not sure why there is a market for isk out there, unless it's much cheaper than plex... Am I missing something?


Nina Mercedez
Posted - 2011.03.01 15:21:00 - [1358]
 

Originally by: Soi Mala
For the last couple of weeks, my corporation has been greifing an alliance - Wardecs, camping the pipe to their 0.0 home, afk cloakers etc.

One guy in particular has parked a few of his alts in their space, .... A few days ago, his alt accounts received mails stating that they had been banned for 3 days, reason: use of a macro/bot.


If that's true, wow...

Then again, the level of CCP's incompetency is almost unbelievable. So I believe this could happen.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.03.01 15:45:00 - [1359]
 

Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 15:48:05
Originally by: Ephemeron
First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals.

CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values.


Their complete lack of response (other than to send sniper mods in here to delete or edit comments that embarrass CCP) is pretty damming isn't it?

I'm beginning to think that we should all just start botting, not for sale or anything but just for ourselves. Why not? CCP doesn't punish it or take it seriously. And it would save us the need to purchase overpriced GTC's to sell as PLEX wouldn't it? It'd be like having your own cadre of Tech moons, without the need to defend them or do the POS logistical bullcrap. Heck, I could have that Aeon I've always wanted by next week.

CCP in their silence and inactivity is practically ENDORSING this.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.03.01 15:53:00 - [1360]
 

Originally by: Soi Mala
You guys should find this hilarious...

For the last couple of weeks, my corporation has been greifing an alliance - Wardecs, camping the pipe to their 0.0 home, afk cloakers etc.

One guy in particular has parked a few of his alts in their space, particularly the ratting systems, where he afk cloaks most of the day, every day. If he happened to be around while targets were out, he'd probe and blackops bridge for us etc. You might argue about the lameness of these tactics etc but that is beside the point. A few days ago, his alt accounts received mails stating that they had been banned for 3 days, reason: use of a macro/bot.

Really? These accounts that had been sat perfectly inactive? Not killed rats, not mined, not done anything? What exactly were they macroing? He was asked to explain why he was logged in all the time, as this was highly suspicious, as opposed to just logging in and probing when he needed to. Apparently this is behavior exhibited by RMTers.

He appealed and luckily got the bans lifted, but the whole thing caused megalols amongst the corp. Perhaps the funniest thing in my eyes, wasn't the lack of reasoning, but the fact that it was only a 3 day ban... Seriously, that is supposed to stop these botters? Hardly the kind of punishment i'd class as "unholy rage".




More like "Operation Unholy SLAP on the Hand".

Give CCP credit. At least they've FINALLY zoned in on the clue that staying logged in practically every second the server is up is suspicious and probably means a bot.

But they've yet to make the connection and link that clue with the "oh, and also RATS continually for 20+ hours" clue which should, oh, 99.999999999998% of the time indicate a genuine bot. Come on, CCP, it's not that hard, form a study group, have some management meetings and you MAY put 2+2 together and get 4 in under 18 months.

You can do it!

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.03.01 16:01:00 - [1361]
 

Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 16:01:47
Accidental double post...

CCP Sreegs

Posted - 2011.03.01 17:00:00 - [1362]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 15:48:05
Originally by: Ephemeron
First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals.

CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values.


Their complete lack of response (other than to send sniper mods in here to delete or edit comments that embarrass CCP) is pretty damming isn't it?

I'm beginning to think that we should all just start botting, not for sale or anything but just for ourselves. Why not? CCP doesn't punish it or take it seriously. And it would save us the need to purchase overpriced GTC's to sell as PLEX wouldn't it? It'd be like having your own cadre of Tech moons, without the need to defend them or do the POS logistical bullcrap. Heck, I could have that Aeon I've always wanted by next week.

CCP in their silence and inactivity is practically ENDORSING this.



I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks. I stated that we in no way endorse this activity and never will. I am pretty clear on these things and that is our one and only policy.

I understand that there's a lot of concern in the community about this particular issue. I'm rather concerned myself. Let's not pretend however that simply because I've said something's going to take a bit of time to do well or that because my posts were in the early stages of a large thread, that we're ignoring the issue. We've said precisely the opposite and we have nothing to gain from lying to you.

It's a complex issue which requires a careful solution, whether it appears that way outwardly or not. I'd look to Fanfest as a good time to obtain more information on this particular subject as a not-so-subtle hint on when you can expect to hear more.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.03.01 17:07:00 - [1363]
 

Thank you for the reply, but I will believe it when I see something.

The fact that bots are allowed to proliferate out there with impunity and no consequence to the alliances who clearly allow them is a travesty.

As for a metric of success, there is none better to measure it by than the cost of illicit ISK. If it starts going up, then you guys are having an effect on the farmers. If it doesn't, you aren't.

Burnharder
Posted - 2011.03.01 17:20:00 - [1364]
 

Just out of interest, are bots rife in WOW? How do other MMO's deal with this problem?

Kengutsi Akira
Posted - 2011.03.01 17:41:00 - [1365]
 

omg... one response
I been in this thread ten pages or so now and we got one copy/paste response lol

Quote:
Originally by: Bloody Rabbit Second, governments don't care about a game that can't break a billion in revenue across the globe so, no, there is no government that would care about RMT in a game. Lets focus on the RMT and botting as it effects the players and what the players will do in response if it is not fixed.


Actually no... the US Govt has made grumblings about figuring out how to tax in game money in several games. That would be hilarious if they figured out a way to do it too

Scyth Darkhope
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.03.01 17:50:00 - [1366]
 

Edited by: Scyth Darkhope on 01/03/2011 17:57:22
Yes, bots exist and thrive in WoW since its inception; almost surely there are more bots in WoW than in EVE, and that is saying a lot.

However, the economy of WoW is a complete joke compared to the economy in EVE, so in fact, even if there are more bots in WoW, the harm they cause is way more limited.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.03.01 17:52:00 - [1367]
 

CCP Sreegs, thnks for the comment.

One reason there has been so much rage for so long in this thread is your last comment was not a few weeks ago, but almost 3 MONTHS ago, somewhat longer then what most would say is "a few weeks". And in all that time, not only have no questions been answered, but the bots continue to exist.
I hope the fanfest comments actually have substance, not on just RMT, but on botting for in-game gain.

To the question "why RMT when there is PLEX?" Illegal ISK is cheaper, 70% of the cost. Some RMT sites eve claim their isk is "clean" because it was farmed by hand, not with bots!

Everard Headbutt
Posted - 2011.03.01 18:28:00 - [1368]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
I've said something's going to take a bit of time to do well




5+ years and counting so far....

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.03.01 18:30:00 - [1369]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks.


On Dec19th, you posted:
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with.

I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least.


That's what you told us that back in December when this issue first erupted. It's March now, and the only visible response to the issue since then has been forum censoring to contain conversation to this thread. Conversation on the topic during the CSM summit was 100% redacted under NDA. Not even a bone from CCP Zulu to tell us there's a reason to sit tight & wait. What are we supposed to think, other than we're being swept under the rug along with the problem?

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
I'd look to Fanfest as a good time to obtain more information on this particular subject as a not-so-subtle hint on when you can expect to hear more.


Thanks for this heads up. I'll be watching closely.

Not directed at Sreegs, but to CCP in general: FF ends on the 26th. My game time ends on the 30th. A sandbox infested with bots is not a sandbox; it's a never ending arena deathmatch. That's not what brought me to Eve. Give me reason to believe you're not going to let the game devolve deeper into arena mode for the cheaters.

Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2011.03.01 18:40:00 - [1370]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
stuff

Problem is that many have reached the point where nothing less than a public flogging of anyone who even considered learn Python is seen as evidence of CCP endorsing botters.

It's a pretty naive outlook, but those people are there; they are loud, and they want blood.

When Unholy rage hit, the effects were obvious, and everyone could see it. Nowadays it's hard to tell what's being done when even the most obvious Bot Drone region botters only get three-day bans.

Burnharder
Posted - 2011.03.01 19:08:00 - [1371]
 

Got a bot mining in system with me right now. Do I bother with a petition? Don't want to lose sec by grabbing a smart-bombing domi and capping him :p.

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2011.03.01 19:42:00 - [1372]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
empty stock response.

I for one appreciate your response in this thread, however there is a disparity between CCPs claimed concern in this area and the long term virtually unchecked rampant botting that has proliferated throughout New Eden.

Problem is, an Unholy Rage type response won't be enough any more. The 1-3 day bans were insufficient, and even if you perma-ban the botters, they earn enough in a day to have multiple plex-funded pre-prepared raven chars logged off ready to step in and continue farming after the bans. You cannot even nerf local as a fix, as the Eve client can be hacked to tell you who is there anyway.

So what can be done?

Answer, nothing that will be popular.
  • Rewrite the Eve client to make it as secure as your game architecture allows. Open source ideally.
  • ]
  • Make all belt rats in 0.0 warp scramble or drop bubbles Twisted Evil.

  • Do something about 0,0 belt rat ease of farmability without killing 0.0 rewards (easier said than done I know).

  • Nerf local (when you fixed the client, otherwise you simply help the bots/cheats).

  • Nerf cloaking. Make cloaks detectable after some time, more than 2 minutes but less than 15. This way a legit non-ratting player logging off will be fine, but a disturbed macro raven will be probable/killable

  • rats aggro = 15min logoff timer as with pvp. Use this with the above 2 points to allow players to police bots.

  • Introduce simple heuristics to look for players who are logged in 23/7, and perform the same activity all that time without even a "bio-break". Do not ban these, but add them to a short list to be investigated.

  • Introduce a CCP endorsed built in ratting bot, to kill the 3rd party bots and level the playing field. I don't like this terribad 'solution' as it will have major knock-on consequences but it will kill the advantage of botting.



Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.03.01 20:06:00 - [1373]
 

Agree with all your ideas. If CCP were serious, they could make an impact on this problem right now by just doing some good GM work investigating petitions, AND actual policing the areas where botting is most reported. A GM can watch botters while being invisible in local. Players can't do that.

Tools do need to be built to make gathering information for the "bot buster" GM teams to act on easier, and it really is no more complicated than compiling reports on accounts logged in FAR longer each day than the average metric that are engaged in a single activity beyond human endurance.

CCP Adida


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.01 20:29:00 - [1374]
 

Removed conversations and links on how to bot.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.03.01 20:58:00 - [1375]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Yeah, seriously, could the mods just get the F--- OUT of this thread now? They keep insisting that all discussion of the bot scourge take place here then do everything they can do to impede it. The edits and deletions aren't HELPING they are only making us angrier at CCP's lack of any constructive action against this problem.


Patience is a virtue. Call me a fool, but I still believe in CCP's ability to handle this problem. Otherwise I wouldn't be playing.

Everard Headbutt
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:04:00 - [1376]
 

Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik


Patience is a virtue.



After waiting over five years for them to fix this problem, and seeing them on numerous occasions hand back accounts to botters after claiming they have been perma banned. My patience is more than a little thin.

Kuronaga
Black Snake Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:08:00 - [1377]
 

Edited by: Kuronaga on 01/03/2011 21:08:51
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Yeah, seriously, could the mods just get the F--- OUT of this thread now? They keep insisting that all discussion of the bot scourge take place here then do everything they can do to impede it. The edits and deletions aren't HELPING they are only making us angrier at CCP's lack of any constructive action against this problem.


Patience is a virtue. Call me a fool, but I still believe in CCP's ability to handle this problem. Otherwise I wouldn't be playing.


As you wish.

You're a fool, and you should stop playing.

but, seriously.

I hope you are right. Unfortunately that hope is very, very dim at this point.

Removed discussion about moderation. If you have an issue on the way something was handled please submit a petition. - Adida

CCP Adida


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:20:00 - [1378]
 

Removed discussions regarding moderation. If you have an issue on how something was handled please submit a petition.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:33:00 - [1379]
 

One thing to think about is how the botters would respond to a more aggressive CCP. For example:

CCP start banning 23/7 ratters: Botters program the bots to take simulated bio breaks and switch accounts every 12 hours.

CCP bans those who do the same activity all the time: Botters program the bots to mix it up, do some mining, then belt ratting, then anomaly running.

CCP uses software to make screen scraping impossible: Botters point a web camera at the screen.

And so on. CCP's problem is not stopping what the botters are doing now, but anything they could do in the future. Imagine the computer "Watson" (the one that won the game Jepoardy) playing eve, with its machine learning capability analyzing what actions cause bannings and what it can get away with.

Its possible the reason CCP has been so quiet is they do not want to snipe at the botters, starting an arms race, they want to drop a nuke on them, wiping them all out all at the same time, and once and for all. And getting that nuke ready, making it future proof, is hard.

I hope so, and wish them luck.

Glasgow Dunlop
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:33:00 - [1380]
 

I think they might just come on here on there tea break lol.

The Revolution has started, well it might, a might have slept thru it, but honest players are now fed up and demaning action being taken.

Its all very well for the mods & GM's to say there looking in to it, but to 99.99% you paying us lip service and until hard fact and reactions happen in-game then a revolution might just be in place.

Its thanks to the players that pay every month on 1,2,3 or whatever amount of accounts they might or might not have, that at the end of they pay, pays the wages at CCP. And to us lot at the moment, we have a feeling of resentment of handing that over, just to see the 'botters' rip billions apon billions of isk.

Im sure the only time somebody buys PLEX's is to get a bit of instant isk, because account running is cheaper. Now what if 10 random folk decied' CCP aint dealing wiht this issue, *$^& them, let get some bots of our own' make is to buy PLEX, and spread the word to 10 of there corp/alliance mates/ randoms in local, and so on and so on, the game dies, and everyone who has put in countless hours to make and develope the game, find that they are out of work due the game collapsing to to the amount of botters.

And in turn this I feel would put of new players as well to the game, currently any noob hasn the faintest idea about this, but if they came in with there eyes wide open, they would be friendly to the bots, as they would see that as the fastest way of making isk, and not really bother so much as to the other aspects of the game.

To Us, the player, we need to see firm action being taken by you, CCP, as again, it just feels like an empty promise that something will be done, and wont be done until CCP starts getting bad press from it, its a shame to say that , but thats the way I feel about this subject.

You already have the evidance in your files, its just that you, for whatever reason, choose not to look at it, and that makes me sad, knowing that you know, and doing nothing about it, its abuse for lack of a better term, the botters abusing that game, and the rest of the players are the one of the reciveing and, and CCP, the overseer, looking down and thinking 'NOTHING WRONG HERE'

Thats the message we are hearing, and we dont want to here it again, there is something wrong, and the only thing that will satasfiy us is the removal of said botters, for good.

Sorry if this went on a bit longer than i thought, had to get my word out Rolling Eyes


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