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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Nina Mercedez
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:07:00 - [1261]
 

Integral, and essential.

I'd like to see them give some people GM powers, not paid or anything, and have them go find bots, and amass solid proof. Have IA monitor them, of course. Hell, I'd volunteer, it's not like I do anything in Eve outside chatting nowadays anyway.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:14:00 - [1262]
 

Originally by: Nina Mercedez

1. re: Problem/solution, that means CCP are part of the problem. If that's the case, we're all doomed.
2. Save your ink. If/when I choose to bot, it won't be with this char/account.
3. After almost 3 months with no reply from CCP, I have honestly no idea why I, or anyone else, add to it. At this point it's comedic.


1. Agreed. CCP is part of the problem, but I disagree that we're all doomed as a result. Quite the contrary - I believe we have an advantage CCP does not... people. People willing to police the game for the sake of killmails, corpses and their own sense of morality.

2. It was only a joke man ;) Lighten up. Didn't you see the smile at the end? lol

3. Because it keeps the problem at the top of the list, #1, and it gives people an opportunity to discuss alternative solutions and gives CCP some good ideas on how they might go about solving the problems. Just because CCP elects to remain neutral and not respond to the bot issue doesn't mean they aren't reading this thread and aren't taking note of what the player base is doing. In fact, I fully believe CCP would back a player initiative to eliminate the bot problem. My only hope is that they begin to realize the potential for giving their player base tools to solve the problem themselves - many of which have already been suggested in this thread.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:19:00 - [1263]
 

Originally by: Nina Mercedez
Integral, and essential.

I'd like to see them give some people GM powers, not paid or anything, and have them go find bots, and amass solid proof. Have IA monitor them, of course. Hell, I'd volunteer, it's not like I do anything in Eve outside chatting nowadays anyway.


w00t! In that case, how about you volunteer to go find bots and report them using reportbots.com/report/ and then file a petition with the people who *do* have the GM powers? Not really that much different from what you propose - ultimately the GM (not the IA) have control over who get's the ban hammer anyway, so if you don't do much more than chat now - put that chatbox to work for you and start talking to suspected bots, figure out their other behaviors (reportbots.com/university/), and file your reports and petitions!

Nina Mercedez
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:32:00 - [1264]
 

Edited by: Nina Mercedez on 25/02/2011 18:32:05
If they came here and said that information would be useful, and used, maybe I would. Without that I'm not wasting my time.

Crucis Cassiopeiae
Amarr
PORSCHE AG
Posted - 2011.02.25 22:40:00 - [1265]
 

Originally by: Nina Mercedez
Integral, and essential.

I'd like to see them give some people GM powers, not paid or anything, and have them go find bots, and amass solid proof. Have IA monitor them, of course. Hell, I'd volunteer, it's not like I do anything in Eve outside chatting nowadays anyway.



I support this thread... but... giving GM powers to ppl that did not sign contract which say what you can do and what you cant, and how... i think... no thnx...
even CCP staff can do (and did) some "illegal" things... and ppl without RL contracts with that power... that could kill the game...

Nina Mercedez
Posted - 2011.02.25 22:55:00 - [1266]
 

I guess you're right. Oh well.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.02.26 00:06:00 - [1267]
 

Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae
Originally by: Nina Mercedez
Integral, and essential.

I'd like to see them give some people GM powers, not paid or anything, and have them go find bots, and amass solid proof. Have IA monitor them, of course. Hell, I'd volunteer, it's not like I do anything in Eve outside chatting nowadays anyway.



I support this thread... but... giving GM powers to ppl that did not sign contract which say what you can do and what you cant, and how... i think... no thnx...
even CCP staff can do (and did) some "illegal" things... and ppl without RL contracts with that power... that could kill the game...


Yay T20

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.02.26 07:36:00 - [1268]
 

Edited by: Consortium Agent on 26/02/2011 07:38:09
Originally by: Nina Mercedez
Edited by: Nina Mercedez on 25/02/2011 18:32:05
If they came here and said that information would be useful, and used, maybe I would. Without that I'm not wasting my time.


One of many positive responses I've gotten from CCP...

GM correspondence removed as per the forum rules.StevieSG



Good enough??

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.26 07:55:00 - [1269]
 

Originally by: Consortium Agent

Gm correspondence removed as per the forum rules.StevieSG




No. What you have there is a totally clueless GM.

CCP will accept NO EVIDENCE from third-party sites regarding exploits or EULA violations. Ever. That is set in stone.

Anyway your site is a total waste of time I'm afraid as CCP do not permaban botters UNLESS they are involved in RMT.

CCP condone cheating. Simple as that.

Sinjuri
DEFCON.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.02.26 11:56:00 - [1270]
 

Originally by: Othran
CCP condone cheating. Simple as that.


This

Hoya en Marland
Posted - 2011.02.26 11:58:00 - [1271]
 

Originally by: Othran
CCP will accept NO EVIDENCE from third-party sites regarding exploits or EULA violations. Ever. That is set in stone.

Anyway your site is a total waste of time I'm afraid as CCP do not permaban botters UNLESS they are involved in RMT.

Exactly.

Besides, I am not going to waste my time hunting down botters only to see them getting 1 (one!) day ban. After all, it is CCP's ****ing job - if they don't want to deal with it, fine. But then I am not paying for this game any more... I guess that's fine too.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.02.26 16:58:00 - [1272]
 

As a programmer I know that it would not be impossible to track statistics on activity of a player and reveal certain patterns that would indicate bot behavior.

I used to write the programs that would do the exact same thing for RL peoples finances. It was 3000 lines of old FORTRAN but it was accurate.


That this problem is not addressed nor approached shows tacit approval. In the end, to change things around, would have to be based on what kind of person they want to subscribe. Any company wants everybody to be their client, as profit is the goal. To eliminate bots means you have to eliminate the kind of people who want to win at all costs, and replace them with people who take the game less seriously. The long term investment is not different but on the short term, it is. The win at all cost crowds will bot, and they will get multiple accounts too. Casual players will have less if more than one. The win at all cost player wants quick gratification and will get bored in a few years but the casual player will be on for twice as long.

So there you have it. It's an arms race. If you want to be in 0.0, go bot. Or get beaten back to lowsec or empire. Period.

Consider it a game mechanic.

The rest of us will enjoy popping into their systems making them warp to SS or dock, knowing that on the other end some guy somewhere is taking a swig of his vodka, pushing his fat girlfriend off his lap, and looking at his 6 or 7 screens while getting his day ruined. Cloak up in your own safe spot as he tries to camp you into a station with T2 ships and keep combat probes stuck in his craw until you get raged at in a foreign language. It's the most entertaining screen saver you will ever have.


Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2011.02.26 17:45:00 - [1273]
 

Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Any company wants everybody to be their client, as profit is the goal. To eliminate bots means you have to eliminate the kind of people who want to win at all costs[...]
So there you have it. It's an arms race. If you want to be in 0.0, go bot. Or get beaten back to lowsec or empire. Period.



The official "win at all costs" method is CCP-sanctioned RMT (PLEX).

There is absolutely no reason to bot if you want to win "at all costs". Botting is for winning cheaply or for non-sanctioned RMTers.

Quote:
The rest of us will enjoy popping into their systems making them warp to SS or dock


Yes, it's so entertaining, playing an MMO against stupid bots ...

Quote:
It's the most entertaining screen saver you will ever have.


Nice little story, but it never happens. Post a screenshot as proof...


Nina Mercedez
Posted - 2011.02.26 18:34:00 - [1274]
 

Originally by: Consortium Agent
Edited by: Consortium Agent on 26/02/2011 07:38:09
Originally by: Nina Mercedez
Edited by: Nina Mercedez on 25/02/2011 18:32:05
If they came here and said that information would be useful, and used, maybe I would. Without that I'm not wasting my time.


One of many positive responses I've gotten from CCP...

GM correspondence removed as per the forum rules.StevieSG



Good enough??


Since the **** got to your post before I did, would you mind emailing me the text if I sent you an email addy in game?

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.26 18:54:00 - [1275]
 

Nina it basically said "yes any info on bots would be welcome".

The GM (name was redacted by poster before CCP got here) who responded seemed to believe that a third-party site collating "evidence" would be fine.

It isn't. CCP don't accept any "evidence" from third-party sites regarding EULA violations. They're quite right not to do so but for sites like dotlan that pull stats from TQ then you have to assume CCP has exactly the same data - in fact they must have more accurate data.

If CCP don't want it fixed (and there's no evidence at ALL that they do) then why bother?

You're wasting your time.

Nina Mercedez
Posted - 2011.02.26 19:00:00 - [1276]
 

Fair enough, thanks.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.02.26 21:04:00 - [1277]
 

Originally by: Othran
Nina it basically said "yes any info on bots would be welcome".

The GM (name was redacted by poster before CCP got here) who responded seemed to believe that a third-party site collating "evidence" would be fine.


Actually, it didn't say that exactly - it said (and I paraphrase for the benefit of others) that the site might be handy for helping other players to file petitions with CCP - not that a third-party site collating 'evidence' would be fine. Quite the contrary. It also said it would be helpful to the GMs and some other stuff that might have gone a long way towards helping players understand their position. But meh - thread ****'s got it. Gotta be quick to read this stuff Nina ;P lol

I've had better responses, but I guess I won't post them since they violate da rulez. Talking about botting? Banned. Botting? Not banned. :( Sad panda.

Anyway, waste of time or not... at least the tool is there for those who feel compelled to use it and take action against the problem. If players would rather ***** and complain about CCPs response (or lack thereof) than to take action themselves, then that is their decision. It is up to each player to decide if they want to ban together and try and put a dent in the problem with player activity, or sit around and complain about how it's CCPs problem.

What nobody seems to get is... it's really *not* CCPs problem. Short of having the rule in their EULA (which they could remove and tell us all to get ****ed) there is no problem for them. CCP makes money off bots, period. Why kill your own income because some players find the activities of other players to be unfair, when they both continue to line your pockets with gold, as it were?

No, the problem is not CCPs to solve at all because, it's not a problem for them. Who is it a problem for? You. Me. Most of the people in this thread and most active human players you talk to in-game. So, the reality is that is is *our* problem because we're the ones offended by it. We can choose to take action within the limited confines of the capabilities CCP exposes to us for taking action - file petitions, expose the botters, kill the botters we can and generally just cause an interruption in the flow of commerce for these botters.

If you choose not to even try to take action against the botters, then you're complacent and complicit in their being in the game. You knock CCP for not doing what you want them to do, which is to locate and remove bots, but you don't want to make any effort of your own to help them to locate and remove bots because you disagree with their policies. So who wins then? Botters.

'Ask not what your CCP can do for you, but what you can do for your CCP' lol ;) Seriously, when did this game get filled with a bunch of cry baby whiners who don't want to do anything for themselves except bash CCP for doing nothing about something that they themselves also do nothing about? Wake up. CCP isn't your momma - it's a company with a bottom line, expenses, profit and loss, and jobs. Not enough jobs to combat the bot problem tho - hence why a massive effort on the part of players to locate, report and petition the bots would go a long, long way towards putting a dent in the problem.

http://www.reportbots.com/ is the tool. New Eden is the place. CCP are the people who can use whatever ban hammers they choose to use whenever they choose to use them (a frustrating process for the players, I agree). Put them all together and what do you have? Progress.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.02.26 21:38:00 - [1278]
 

One more thing I figured I might as well bring up since it's relevant to the discussion.

I'm sure everyone who has filed a bot report has received the defacto form mail response that CCP thanks you and that if you don't see immediate action not to despair and to continue to report these activities.

What they don't, and can't, tell you is that many of the reports you file are small potatoes. Grunts, if you will. Grunts who, eventually, leave a paper trail to their masters. Since it is ultimately the head of the snake you want to cut off, since cutting off the tail doesn't kill the snake, we have to allow CCP the time and leeway to use the grunts for what grunts are good for - exposing the head of the snake. Killing off a bunch of grunts with the ban hammer is useless if the next day the head of the snake fields a bunch more you don't know about. No, it is clearly better to take the time to build the evidence you need and follow the trail of scum until you hear the head hiss. Then you whack the hell out of the head with the ban hammer and the rest of the snake (the tail - the grunts we report) die with it.

Let me put it in another geeky way. An analogy: SETI has been listening to the stars for 50+ years. Scanning the sky, picking stars pretty much at random, doing sweeps of the sky in random and known ways. All of which has produced... silence. Today, some 50+ years later, scientists in completely unrelated fields have developed technology which allows them to locate and report stars with planetary systems having planets of known mass, atmosphere and such. SETI, in response, now points their radio telescopes at the stars that are known to have planets more than they point them anywhere else, especially the stars that are thought to have Earth sized or near Earth sized planets. Why? Because it increases the chances considerably that they might hear some radio waves leaking into space if those Earth-like planets harbor intelligent life. In much the same way... CCP GMs are SETI. Players are the scientists forging new tools that will allow CCP to focus in on the most likely locations of intelligent life (literally).


Paul Mustaka Hekard
Posted - 2011.02.26 21:44:00 - [1279]
 

Edited by: Paul Mustaka Hekard on 26/02/2011 21:45:57
Edited by: Paul Mustaka Hekard on 26/02/2011 21:44:59
Sounds like time to kill some bots. Futile or not, it will still be the****utic. This alt will be signing on to killthebots.com; or whatever the hell it is. We can start with the low-hanging fruit and work our way up.

edit: since when is ther-a-peutic a censored word?

Hoya en Marland
Posted - 2011.02.26 23:57:00 - [1280]
 

@Consortium Agent:
So you are implying that CCP is making money of the botters and therefore has damn good reason NOT to do anything serious against this plague. Yet, being aware of that, you are still inviting us to take action. Don't you find this a little bit... pointless? Are we going against CCP itself here?

At the end, it's quite simple: CCP is selling broken (someone said: deeply rotten) product which they don't want to fix. Which leaves us, their paying customers, with only two choices - swallow the s***, pretend that it was tasty, and play the game as it is. Or don't.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.02.27 01:07:00 - [1281]
 

Originally by: Consortium Agent

What they don't, and can't, tell you is that many of the reports you file are small potatoes. Grunts, if you will. Grunts who, eventually, leave a paper trail to their masters. Since it is ultimately the head of the snake you want to cut off, since cutting off the tail doesn't kill the snake, we have to allow CCP the time and leeway to use the grunts for what grunts are good for - exposing the head of the snake. Killing off a bunch of grunts with the ban hammer is useless if the next day the head of the snake fields a bunch more you don't know about. No, it is clearly better to take the time to build the evidence you need and follow the trail of scum until you hear the head hiss. Then you whack the hell out of the head with the ban hammer and the rest of the snake (the tail - the grunts we report) die with it.



Hahaha, right.
They had more than enough time to do that, and they ignored the problem. There is no paper trail for a guy running half a dozen bots to finance his supercap, or a botting corp renting a system in the drone regions to produce supers to sell for real money.

The "paper trails" have long been exposed, discussed, vivisected, discussed again, archived, dug up, and analyzed all over again.

We're long past the stage where incompetence can be a valid explanation for what is happening. It's either ignorance or malicious intend.

VaMei
Posted - 2011.02.27 01:24:00 - [1282]
 

Edited by: VaMei on 27/02/2011 01:29:57
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
To eliminate bots means you have to eliminate the kind of people who want to win at all costs, and replace them with people who take the game less seriously.


While I agree with most of what you said, I have to disagree with this point. Those who take Eve seriously as a sandbox game, and understand all the ramifications of being a sandbox, understand that bots, RMT, EBay, Plex, & character auctions all break from the spirit of a true sandbox where 'winning' is measured by how well you improve your position relative to the position of your opponents. External programs like EveMon, EveMeep & EFT, along with advice from friends & forums can guide your choices toward whatever goals you set, but nothing from the outside world should directly impact the game. When the outside world does change the game, your achievments are not your own, and your opponents have been cheated out of their 'win'.

I take Eve very seriously, so seriously that I won't cheat.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.02.27 01:43:00 - [1283]
 

Originally by: VaMei
Edited by: VaMei on 27/02/2011 01:29:57
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
To eliminate bots means you have to eliminate the kind of people who want to win at all costs, and replace them with people who take the game less seriously.


While I agree with most of what you said, I have to disagree with this point. Those who take Eve seriously as a sandbox game, and understand all the ramifications of being a sandbox, understand that bots, RMT, EBay, Plex, & character auctions all break from the spirit of a true sandbox where 'winning' is measured by how well you improve your position relative to the position of your opponents. External programs like EveMon, EveMeep & EFT, along with advice from friends & forums can guide your choices toward whatever goals you set, but nothing from the outside world should directly impact the game. When the outside world does change the game, your achievments are not your own, and your opponents have been cheated out of their 'win'.

I take Eve very seriously, so seriously that I won't cheat.


I should further clarify what I mean by "seriously".
Some people can lose and just lose - it's only a game. But there are those who are so afraid of losing they either avoid all chances of it and mine/mission in high sec, or they want the PVP but still have to win so badly that they will cheat, lie, steal, sell their mother, and whatever else - possibly even do RMT.
(When they do lose, they can be a source of epic rage displays but it's still a sad thing to witness)

So in many cases I think that if winning means botting because botting means you can get those caps, they are not even going to bother thinking about the moral and ethical implications. Perhaps we could wonder that CCP is not cracking down on bots in a case by case basis so much because if one alliance started getting the hammer dropped on them for botting, and others didn't, there would be endless rage and complaining over it. As it usually goes, when everybody can do something that they know they should not, it becomes seen as a right and enforcement against it seems arbitrary. Imagine if banning bots via reporting was actually effective, then you would see a day when accusing enemies of botting becomes a war tactic. That too would be sick and stupid, these "lawfare" games the likes of which if you want to deal with you could get a better dose of it in local politics.

I can't think of solutions, but someone did post another thread a while ago about starting up scores of trial accounts, leading them to 0.0, and causing bots to dock up by placing noob trial alts in systems. I would not be surprised if this was discovered to be an existing resource denial tactic. Might as well hire thugs to go to your enemies houses and beat them up at their computers too.

And all that trouble for a game.



Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2011.02.27 01:53:00 - [1284]
 

Originally by: Consortium Agent
Talking about botting? Banned. Botting? Not banned.



Nothing new... Breaking the news of T20, banned. accepting items known to be illegally gained by a dev? Not banned lol

Brannoncyll
The Rip Tide
Posted - 2011.02.27 02:57:00 - [1285]
 

I suspect many of the alliances who condone bots within their ranks do so simply because if they didn't they would quickly be overwhelmed by the superior forces of those who do. If CCP do not come down on this hard and soon, the arms race will spiral ever further out of control to the point where anyone who wants to compete must bot. The longer they leave it, the worse it will get. There needs to be a series of very large and public purges of botting accounts and also the removal of all assets that the alliances have purchased with the proceeds of the bots.

Kengutsi Akira
Posted - 2011.02.27 03:45:00 - [1286]
 

Originally by: Brannoncyll
If CCP do not come down on this hard and soon, the arms race will spiral ever further out of control to the point where anyone who wants to compete must bot.


...20 Titans in one fight... 100s of supercaps... that time is nigh

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.02.27 04:16:00 - [1287]
 

Originally by: Brannoncyll
If CCP do not come down on this hard and soon, the arms race will spiral ever further out of control to the point where anyone who wants to compete must bot.


Not sure how to break this to you, but that is already the case.
The only thing keeping alliances from encouraging their members to run bots is petty idealism.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.27 08:55:00 - [1288]
 

Edited by: Othran on 27/02/2011 08:58:06
Originally by: Consortium Agent
One more thing I figured I might as well bring up since it's relevant to the discussion.

I'm sure everyone who has filed a bot report has received the defacto form mail response that CCP thanks you and that if you don't see immediate action not to despair and to continue to report these activities.

What they don't, and can't, tell you is that many of the reports you file are small potatoes. Grunts, if you will. Grunts who, eventually, leave a paper trail to their masters. Since it is ultimately the head of the snake you want to cut off, since cutting off the tail doesn't kill the snake, we have to allow CCP the time and leeway to use the grunts for what grunts are good for - exposing the head of the snake. Killing off a bunch of grunts with the ban hammer is useless if the next day the head of the snake fields a bunch more you don't know about. No, it is clearly better to take the time to build the evidence you need and follow the trail of scum until you hear the head hiss. Then you whack the hell out of the head with the ban hammer and the rest of the snake (the tail - the grunts we report) die with it.

Let me put it in another geeky way. An analogy: SETI has been listening to the stars for 50+ years. Scanning the sky, picking stars pretty much at random, doing sweeps of the sky in random and known ways. All of which has produced... silence. Today, some 50+ years later, scientists in completely unrelated fields have developed technology which allows them to locate and report stars with planetary systems having planets of known mass, atmosphere and such. SETI, in response, now points their radio telescopes at the stars that are known to have planets more than they point them anywhere else, especially the stars that are thought to have Earth sized or near Earth sized planets. Why? Because it increases the chances considerably that they might hear some radio waves leaking into space if those Earth-like planets harbor intelligent life. In much the same way... CCP GMs are SETI. Players are the scientists forging new tools that will allow CCP to focus in on the most likely locations of intelligent life (literally).





This is such complete unmitigated bull**** that its not funny.

You are clueless.

CCP will accept NO DATA from your site. It won't happen. Ever.

There is no point in petitioning botters unless you know FOR SURE that they are involved in RMT.

No point because CCP REQUIRES them to keep botting otherwise the economy (heh there's a laugh) will collapse.

The game is built upon a foundation of cheating. A foundation that CCP has been well aware of since bots first appeared.

CCP condones cheating. While they do there is no point in petitioning anyone not RMTing.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
Posted - 2011.02.27 09:38:00 - [1289]
 

sometime I'm sad that there is no really another awesome space game on the market.

sometime i just wish/like now/that this game just die.

botting is in control of parts of game awesome

then again i will leave this game anyway but no harm in supporting this i might come back who knows.

Hoya en Marland
Posted - 2011.02.27 09:40:00 - [1290]
 

Bottom line: only CCP has power to banish the botters. Since they are clearly refusing to do so, for the reasons being pretty obvious and well exposed in this thread, there's really nothing that we as community can do. Reporting some poor sob every now and then (for 1 day ban lol), or ganking him, is nothing more than scratching the surface of the massive iceberg.


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