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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.24 07:14:00 - [1201]
 

Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa
I don't care who it helps.


If I was smart, I would have stopped reading here.


Quote:
It's bull**** in the first place. Which kind of magic makes people appear in local if they want or not?
Especially in 0.0.
It's some Concord magic?

Nope, it's BS.


The same internet spaceship magic that allows you to create cap from thin air with a ETA. That doesn't allow capitals to use gates. That, I dunno, powers the whole game.

Shoopa Whoopa
Posted - 2011.02.24 07:37:00 - [1202]
 

Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 24/02/2011 07:40:18
Originally by: Target Painter
If I was smart, I would have stopped reading here.


Shame on you. Laughing

Originally by: Target Painter
The same internet spaceship magic that allows you to create cap from thin air with a ETA. That doesn't allow capitals to use gates. That, I dunno, powers the whole game.


I don't think it quite compares. Knowing something you cannot know is different to amplifying Cap transfer slightly or capitals being too large and massive to use jumpgates.
There might also be some magic involved, but it's T1 magic at best.
The local thing is T3 magic.

#Edit: It will be really difficult to explain how local works in game terms. Concord prohibits meddling with your ships transponder or IFF system that sends a solar system wide beacon so everyone knows you're there? Quite weak but the best I can think of.

bustergonads
Posted - 2011.02.24 08:58:00 - [1203]
 

Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa

Add a 'not PLEX eligible' flag to bot accounts. They must be paid with hard cash.




Which would do nothing, they would just use stolen credit card details like they have in other games for years. (not difficult to find online) Just ban the bastards and get it over and done with.

Jasper Dark
Posted - 2011.02.24 09:43:00 - [1204]
 

Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:44:28
Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:43:19
Many problems can be fixed by one move, forcing players to join/create player corporations. This won't stop botting in 0.0. But most likely stop botting in empire.

Limiting access to NPC corps to only lvl1 agents. Oh the horrors that will cause!!! YARRRR!!

EDIT:
Or raise NPC tax when wunnign higher lvl agents and quality.

bustergonads
Posted - 2011.02.24 10:06:00 - [1205]
 

Originally by: Jasper Dark
Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:44:28
Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:43:19
Many problems can be fixed by one move, forcing players to join/create player corporations.



In theory this should work, however when you try to war dec these corps you find they just bail from the corp and join/set up another.

Roman Clevik
Posted - 2011.02.24 10:45:00 - [1206]
 

Edited by: Roman Clevik on 24/02/2011 10:47:24

Hi, after a chat with a TEST member, it is clear that botting in enforced and a well known practice in TEST alliance ... someone will say "hey, nothing new under the sun" ... but it is still worth posting as CCP continue to hide itself and do absolutely nothing:

(before the ccp censorship: I do have written confirm that the TEST dude Draco Interfector allows me to post this logs)

---

Chatlog removed as per the forum rules.StevieSG

Bhattran
Posted - 2011.02.24 10:45:00 - [1207]
 

Originally by: Jasper Dark
Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:44:28
Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:43:19
Many problems can be fixed by one move, forcing players to join/create player corporations. This won't stop botting in 0.0. But most likely stop botting in empire.

Limiting access to NPC corps to only lvl1 agents. Oh the horrors that will cause!!! YARRRR!!

EDIT:
Or raise NPC tax when wunnign higher lvl agents and quality.


How about we eliminate space holding sovereignty that allows these bots to own space, rent space, etc and be hidden from all but their 'allies'?

Nerf moons once and for all, same to 00 rat bounty, and chaining.

Or CCP could not take the easy lazy route of doing 'nothing' like they do now or either of our simple solutions and try several of the other solutions presented throughout this thread that actually seek to make botting less profitable, PVE more interactive along with securing their client, etc.



Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.02.24 11:05:00 - [1208]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 21/02/2011 20:11:34
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 21/02/2011 19:48:38
Originally by: Consortium Agent


So, instead of simply complaining about the problem, I suggest we take action. Hence why I wrote reportbots.com.


Wouldnt it be ironic as hell if you got banned for interrupting gameplay or something stupid like that?




Yes, quite :P lol.

Nina Mercedez
Posted - 2011.02.24 11:15:00 - [1209]
 

Originally by: Roman Clevik
Hi, after a chat with a TEST member, ...

(before the ccp censorship: I do have written confirm that the TEST dude Draco Interfector allows me to post this logs)
Roman Clevik: do you mind if I repost this ?
..
Draco Interfector: where?
Roman Clevik: kugu
..
Draco Interfector: I rather you not use my name if you post it on kugu



Posting his name on kugu is a no-no. But here's fine, lol. I guess TEST don't read this forum. Anyway, interesting convo.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.02.24 11:19:00 - [1210]
 

Originally by: Umega
Originally by: Von Hinten
Funny:

Flood CCP with legit petitions first off.

Secondly, if I knew how.. I'd make a site. Solely dedicated to plastering the names of suspected and confirmed macros for all to see.. and the main characters that control them. Lets expose who is doing what.. Expose which of the major alliances, and just how much they are using bots to fuel their war machines. Smear them through the mud.. its drama.. drama creates interest, interest that note-worthy blogs and interweb articles pick up on and report. Then..




Page 35 of this thread details a website specifically for the purposes you mentioned... I knew how and had the same thought a couple months ago :)

http://www.reportbots.com/

Still a work in progress, but the core functionality (reporting bot, creating CCP petition text, and viewing reported bots) is working and solid.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2011.02.24 11:34:00 - [1211]
 

Originally by: Consortium Agent
Originally by: Umega

Page 35 of this thread details a website specifically for the purposes you mentioned... I knew how and had the same thought a couple months ago :)

http://www.reportbots.com/

Still a work in progress, but the core functionality (reporting bot, creating CCP petition text, and viewing reported bots) is working and solid.


Nothing like a bit of evolutionary pressure to make hard-to-detect bots evolve even faster?

Knoops
Sonnenlegion
Smacked Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.24 11:37:00 - [1212]
 

i support this!

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.02.24 11:45:00 - [1213]
 

Originally by: Richard Aiel

I have an idea for the eve24 guys. Make a page that goes with the page where you can report bots. The page takes each unique bot name and counts it.
Basically, something to start counting the numbers of these things.
If the number hit in the 50 to 100 thousand range, that would be a significant and SHOULD open more than a few eyes lol


At the risk of being repetitive... http://www.reportbots.com/

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.02.24 11:48:00 - [1214]
 

Originally by: Cyaxares II
Originally by: Consortium Agent
Originally by: Umega

Page 35 of this thread details a website specifically for the purposes you mentioned... I knew how and had the same thought a couple months ago :)

http://www.reportbots.com/

Still a work in progress, but the core functionality (reporting bot, creating CCP petition text, and viewing reported bots) is working and solid.


Nothing like a bit of evolutionary pressure to make hard-to-detect bots evolve even faster?


As mentioned here, there is no way an application could ever truly mimic human behavior - it will always have visibly repetitive patterns of behavior(s) that make them human and code detectable. Unfortunately, CCP refuses to implement the code detection, so we're left with human detection and reporting. In either case, no matter how a bot evolves it will always, always, always have repetitive patterns of behaviors. Always.

gfldex
Posted - 2011.02.24 12:40:00 - [1215]
 

Originally by: Consortium Agent

In either case, no matter how a bot evolves it will always, always, always have repetitive patterns of behaviors. Always.


Very true _but_ the behaviour of humans will be repetitive as well because the game is forcing them to. There is no way around having GMs go around and try to spot bots. And that means there is a dedicated team of knowledgeable individuals needed. (Sadly my confidence in the GM team does not allow me to hope for much in that reguard. But then, it's not my problem to solve that.)

Luckyly having your char banned is rather hurtful in EVE and thus banning players in a visible (!!!) fashion will scare most players of the cheater path. It doesn't even have to be a perma ban. If the leadership of an alliance is banned for 3 month they wont be the leadership anymore. Nonleaders will find their nice assets being locked in stations they can't dock at anymore. In contrast to most other MMOs where you can gain SP by hurting NPCs and thus the solution to getting banned for botting is more botting, in EVE a ban has a meaning. We can get rid of the waste majority of cheaters and hurt quite a lot of the RMTers.

Ofc, I would prefere sov mechanics that allow the player base to deal with afk alliances but for some strange reason I believe that we would wait for another 3 years to see any improvements in that field. Having 3 GMs trying to cover all TZs and lurk around for bot-banning targets is something that can be done _right_away_ and would require very little rage from the player base.

And that's the shame. CCP could have dealt with the whole botting mess months ago. That they didn't is ... well, I can't describe what it is without dropping blunt insults on ppl that like to get drunk. So I wont. (kind of)

Jasper Dark
Posted - 2011.02.24 12:48:00 - [1216]
 

Originally by: bustergonads
Originally by: Jasper Dark
Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:44:28
Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:43:19
Many problems can be fixed by one move, forcing players to join/create player corporations.



In theory this should work, however when you try to war dec these corps you find they just bail from the corp and join/set up another.


This is true, but CCP could force some other limits, like they have to pay a hefty fine to concord to leave the corp when a war dec is initiated. Plus isn't this a bannable offecnse too, to corp jump due to war decs?

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.24 13:00:00 - [1217]
 

That would help as much against bots as database issues do: Sure it does something, but at least as much against normal players.

And no corphopping is not an exploit since a wardec is against a corp, not against a player. If you cause with that wardec that everyones leaves the corp you succeeded in the wardec.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2011.02.24 13:04:00 - [1218]
 

Edited by: Cyaxares II on 24/02/2011 13:09:17
Originally by: Consortium Agent
As mentioned here, there is no way an application could ever truly mimic human behavior - it will always have visibly repetitive patterns of behavior(s) that make them human and code detectable. Unfortunately, CCP refuses to implement the code detection, so we're left with human detection and reporting. In either case, no matter how a bot evolves it will always, always, always have repetitive patterns of behaviors. Always.


that site basically lists some of the default settings for very simple bots and then goes on to say (paraphrased) "there is no sure-fire way to detect bots, you just have to watch them for a long time trying to detect some pattern, maybe try to provoke some unforeseen situations and generally rely on your intuition".

Seeing how limited the communication between players in EVE is as long as they don't talk to each other (and many real people won't respond to random conversations or local), I don't see a compelling reason why bots should not be able to mimic human behavior really, really well.

I am very certain that I could write e.g. a mining bot that avoids almost all give-away signs on that website and even writes the occasional "**** off" into local when you stay in its belt for too long and I am just a bored college student. The reason why bot writers (and I would expect major RMT outlets to use custom developed bots) don't bother with avoiding detection is because it would be unnecessary :effort: at this point and it would reduce the efficiency of the bot (stuff like taking bio breaks, moving around between systems, ...).

Most bots are extremely primitive in their behavior because they can get away with being primitive not because it is impossible to build more advanced ones.

edit: also some of the more interesting bots are open-source, so each user can adapt the bot to behave after his own personal wishes. Don't like that mission bot firing his large lasers on elite frigates? just tell him not to do it & recompile.
This allows for a great variety of bot behavior and capabilities (without each botter having to develop a full bot from scratch) making detection much harder.

Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.02.24 13:15:00 - [1219]
 

Originally by: Richard Aiel
Edited by: Richard Aiel on 24/02/2011 05:07:48
Originally by: Arnakoz


all I'm trying to say is that bots are already integral to our eve experience and can't be gotten rid of. so why care?..


Spend much time in 0.0?
Short answer: 20 titans in one fight and 100 plus supercaps.
Titans used to be hard to get. Five was a major achievement



yes, actually. I went from being an atlas renter to the NC. PL is the bane of my existence at this point. but in the maybe ~25% of null that I've traveled through I haven't noticed bots. granted, i haven't spent a lot of time in russian space; which is, i guess, where most of it occurs.

i do notice what i would guess to be bots in nearly every hisec system.

but either way, i see your point.

Kengutsi Akira
Posted - 2011.02.24 14:16:00 - [1220]
 

Originally by: bustergonads
Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa

Add a 'not PLEX eligible' flag to bot accounts. They must be paid with hard cash.




Which would do nothing, they would just use stolen credit card details like they have in other games for years. (not difficult to find online) Just ban the bastards and get it over and done with.


Unfortionately for new players this also leads to griefing and quitting the game due to pirate corps using the requirement to do this to get their rocks off.
Also, where do the noobs start out?

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.24 15:03:00 - [1221]
 

Set a hard cap on noobcorp membership, once your account is 90 days old no toon can remain in one. If you don't leave it, on day 91 the game makes a 1 man player corp named for your character. If you leave a player corp after 90 days and don't apply to another player corp it does the same thing, drops you into your own player corp named after your character.

Nina Mercedez
Posted - 2011.02.24 15:16:00 - [1222]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Set a hard cap on noobcorp membership, once your account is 90 days old no toon can remain in one. If you don't leave it, on day 91 the game makes a 1 man player corp named for your character. If you leave a player corp after 90 days and don't apply to another player corp it does the same thing, drops you into your own player corp named after your character.



This might do something to interrupt high sec macroers' activities, but would do nothing to address the issue of massive isk-harvesting out in 0.0. Even RMT doesn't affect the players all that much, it's the auto-acquired isk used against players that affects them the most.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.02.24 16:01:00 - [1223]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 24/02/2011 16:17:58
I've pretty much lost all hope that CCP is going to put any significant effort into resolving the issue of bots. They've ignored this thread for more than 2 months and let it grow to 41 pages, with a spin doc from a GM as the only response. They could have chosen to use the CSM summit as an outlet to give us some reason to believe that they do intend to do something, keeping actual intentions under NDA, but they choose to redact all of whatever conversation of botting took place. CCP Oveur or CCP Zulu could have tossed us a bone in this thread to tell us they see the situation as a problem, and that they will address it. Instead, they've chosen to contain the problem to this thread; the problem being us.

I'm pretty sure that Eve has jumped the shark as a competitive sandbox game. For many, it's already devolved into arcade mode, where the largest assets are disposable and having a character with any skillset is only an auction away; all it takes to have anything is RL cash or a bot and a bit of secure space.

Remembering the effort that ASCN and BoB put into building the 1st titans, and the impact those 1st shipyards had on the game, it's sad to see how trivial fielding the games greatest achievements has become. Sadder still… if they ever did get rid of bots, it would cement the current power blocks in place, since new alliances would never be able to field enough firepower to challenge the assets of the current alliances.

At this point, I guess I'll keep my afk camper doing her job of keeping one system safe from the scourge, invest the larger part of my reserves into commodities that'll give a nice return if bots are ever removed, and play out the plex I have left. (no stuffs for you, don't ask).

Rent Buzzline
Posted - 2011.02.24 17:25:00 - [1224]
 

Edited by: Rent Buzzline on 24/02/2011 17:26:08
We are 84h away from the (IMO promising) launch of reportbots.com

I urge everyone to make a sincere effort to use this tool. Not only will it shed some publicity on known botters (hell, some of the bots identified in the original evenews24.com article are already online again), it will also pressure CCP to take action.

So...
- use reportbots.com privately
- advcate the use in your corp
- advocate the use in your alliance

And most importantly:

Take a stand agains bots if you see them in your ranks. Humiliate them, Kill them, then kick and report them. It's never too late to get straight.

Oh, and FWIW: I'm in no way affiliated with reportbots.com

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.24 18:25:00 - [1225]
 

Bots should be an exception in anyone's NBSI policy...

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.02.24 18:31:00 - [1226]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 24/02/2011 18:32:48
Originally by: Rent Buzzline
It's never too late to get straight.

I don't think the majority of posters in this thread agrees with your opinion.

Consensus seems to be that botters should get permabanned at first offense (instead of giving them temp bans of increasing duration) or that their skills and assets should be reset.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.24 19:07:00 - [1227]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 24/02/2011 18:32:48
Originally by: Rent Buzzline
It's never too late to get straight.

I don't think the majority of posters in this thread agrees with your opinion.

Consensus seems to be that botters should get permabanned at first offense (instead of giving them temp bans of increasing duration) or that their skills and assets should be reset.


I don't think it is actually.

I for one would just like to see a documented "three strikes and you're out" policy. By that I mean that CCP produce rules that bind them and us. Yeah I know Fantasy Island stuff as CCP won't ever do that.

Basically :

You download and use a bot in clear breach of the rules :

Offence #1 : 1 week ban
Offence #2 : 1 month ban and isk confiscation;
Offence #3 : permanent ban on all accounts you operate.

Never ever ever going to happen AND be enforced so dream on boys and girls.

CCP makes money from accounts involved in cheating, so they're not going to stop until the real players say ENOUGH!

Not going to happen though, MMOs fade away rather than burn out :)

Sator Nyatt
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:10:00 - [1228]
 

Couple things

I've been reading this thread for a while now and i think it's really good that people continue to post in it, lots of different people continuing to post, and i think it shows a really wide ranging support for CCP doing something concrete against bots.

I think that there has been an explosion with bots lately, they seem to be much more visible in the space i have been in. Maybe thats due to switching alliances, but since so many other people are starting to make noise, i suspect there's more and more of them around.

I suspect many of them are 'Casual' botters, players who run 1, maybe 2 bots. These people can easily be encouraged to not bot anymore. The 'Bot Farms' should be able to be targeted by CCP through RMT tracking or whatever, the professional organisations. But the casual botters would be harder to track, widespread, the occasional account, whatever.

If, however, CCP showed they were serious...actually whacked a few people, maybe punished their mains as well, many of these casual botters would stop. Most people who actually play the game and bot 'on the side' would shut down their bots in a heartbeat if they actually thought they'd get seriously hurt on their 'real' accounts. You'd probably knock out 30-50% of the bots operating there.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.02.25 00:56:00 - [1229]
 

Edited by: Consortium Agent on 25/02/2011 01:29:42
Originally by: Cyaxares II

Originally by: Consortium Agent
As mentioned here, there is no way an application could ever truly mimic human behavior - it will always have visibly repetitive patterns of behavior(s) that make them human and code detectable. Unfortunately, CCP refuses to implement the code detection, so we're left with human detection and reporting. In either case, no matter how a bot evolves it will always, always, always have repetitive patterns of behaviors. Always.


that site basically lists some of the default settings for very simple bots and then goes on to say (paraphrased) "there is no sure-fire way to detect bots, you just have to watch them for a long time trying to detect some pattern, maybe try to provoke some unforeseen situations and generally rely on your intuition".


That's quite the paraphrase, considering it doesn't really say that at all.

Originally by: Cyaxares II

I am very certain that I could write e.g. a mining bot that avoids almost all give-away signs on that website and even writes the occasional "**** off" into local when you stay in its belt for too long and I am just a bored college student. The reason why bot writers (and I would expect major RMT outlets to use custom developed bots) don't bother with avoiding detection is because it would be unnecessary :effort: at this point and it would reduce the efficiency of the bot (stuff like taking bio breaks, moving around between systems, ...).

Most bots are extremely primitive in their behavior because they can get away with being primitive not because it is impossible to build more advanced ones.


You seem to be arguing that bots *could* be better, but most are extremely primitive - and in the same breath you are attempting to slay reportbots.com for teaching how to locate these 'extremely primitive' bots. Is there a point here? If the majority of bots are extremely primitive (whatever the reason) then they are easy to detect and report on, correct? So you seem to have a contradictory fail argument.

Reportbots.com isn't designed nor intended to be the cure all, be all, end all to the bot problem - it's a dynamic system designed to grow with the bots and provide some key services... one of which is to help players create petitions to file with CCP, another is to help expose those players who bot for all the world to see. I fully expect the bots to get better with time and become harder to detect - that's a logical conclusion to exposing them. Fortunately, they will still have some repetitive patterns of behavior, as I'd previously made clear.

Originally by: Cyaxares II

edit: also some of the more interesting bots are open-source, so each user can adapt the bot to behave after his own personal wishes. Don't like that mission bot firing his large lasers on elite frigates? just tell him not to do it & recompile.
This allows for a great variety of bot behavior and capabilities (without each botter having to develop a full bot from scratch) making detection much harder.


While I will admit that most Eve players are geeks - I would venture a guess that the majority of players have no idea how to compile programs. Just a guess - I have been wrong before... but it's rare :)

In short, I'm happy you believe you could engineer the worlds best bot and get around all of the known behaviors (like responding to chat requests and carrying on a human conversation that involves answering questions) - please build that bot. I want to see it. Until such time as you engineer this superbot that can mimic human behaviors and beat all of the known behavior patterns of bots... and has no repetitive patterns of it's own... your argument is fail.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.25 01:00:00 - [1230]
 

First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals.

CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values.


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