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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:03:00 - [901]
 

Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 17/02/2011 15:55:44
Originally by: yani dumyat
Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales.

Bots create demand for Plex, adding value to them. People that pay cash for plex to sell then for isk do so only beacuse Plex have that value.

IF bots were gone and the price of Plex crashed, how many people do you think would continue to pay cash to buy more?


Which is why, I feel, that Unholy Rage wasn't followed up with UR II, UR III, UR IV, etc. Someone realized the PLEX system had achieved it's goal of making sure CCP get's "it's cut" of the botters RMT operations and decided to leave it that way.

How long has this thread been up? What has CCP said substantively about botters or their plans to do anything about them?

Not one damn thing.

EVE24 does what any GM could do in minutes, discover that there are tons of "players" ratting for 23 hours a DAY, a feat humanely impossible, located within two alliances, and what does CCP do?

Again, not a damn thing.
(well they banned them for 24 hours, oooh that will hurt)

Why do they keep relegating discussion of this to the ghetto? Because they want it to die, they HOPE that it dies. PLEX sales are booming thanks to the hungry bots, which is helping CCP's bottom line. They could care less if it affects us negatively so long as it's positive to their bank accounts.

As I've said before, CCP can only demonstrate their seriousness and commitment to ridding this game of bots and illicit RMT by IMMEDIATELY bringing back the Unholy Rage campaign, as well as suspending the availability of PLEX conversion during it (so the market drains and the botters can't immediately replace their losses).


yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:06:00 - [902]
 

Edited by: yani dumyat on 17/02/2011 16:11:11

Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 17/02/2011 15:55:44
Originally by: yani dumyat
Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales.

Bots create demand for Plex, adding value to them. People that pay cash for plex to sell then for isk do so only beacuse Plex have that value.

IF bots were gone and the price of Plex crashed, how many people do you think would continue to pay cash to buy more?


That is a problem with the plex system that has nothing to do with botting. Botters have created a market bubble but the same bubble could just as easily have been caused by market speculation or some other means.

CCP knew they were tying their RL income to the in game market when they released GTC and then plex, if their accountants have failed to account for market bubbles then more fool them.

If crashing the market would cause CCP genuine harm then plex sinks can be created easily, price floors and ceilings can be created through NPC buy and sell orders or selling vanity items for micro plex are two basic mechanisms, I'm sure CCP are clever enough to think of more.

EDIT, also to add that any market crash would be followed by a reduction of supply and an increase in demand, the price would stabilise once the current supply of plexes were used up. Given that plexes are essentially pre paid game time CCP should have the cash to cover such an eventuality.

Superkiller NinjaPirate
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:14:00 - [903]
 

Stop focusing to RMT ... this is not the point.

Who will pay for real money isk sellers and maybe get banned, when you can buy a bot for a few $$$ and gain all the isk you want without even paying EvE subscribtion anymore, and be very safe ?

Go look at a random RMT website ... they sell you 1bil for about 35 USD ... with 35 USD you can buy a bot (or more).
In one single month you repaid your investment and you also got the isk to pay 1 30day PLEX. Go read evenews24 ... 1 month of botting is even far more than 1bil.

SO ... the plague is not RMT ... the plague are the isks from botting that are directly injected in players/corp/alliances wallets.

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:15:00 - [904]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 17/02/2011 16:15:27

If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do?

Kengutsi Akira
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:30:00 - [905]
 

Originally by: yani dumyat
Edited by: yani dumyat on 17/02/2011 15:30:22
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: yani dumyat
Once gaming sites start running articles mentioning bots in eve (and with the current level of noise they will) the whole paradigm behing eve's marketing, and to a big extent the game itself, will collapse.


Given that there are literally bots in every mmo, and noone cares in any other mmo about them, bots in an MMO isnt something likely to get front page news anywhere on the net, and nowhere will it get enough coverage to kill EVE



I didn't say that coverage would kill eve (though too many bots will eventually do so), I said that the paradigm would break down. The whole point of having a single server and free market economy is that the game isn't just pvp it's eve, everyone vs everyone.

The market is the absolute core of the game, it defines everything from the ships you can afford to fly, your ability to wage war, the amount of time you have to spend carebearing to have a decent income etc.

If it gets to the point where someone posts on mmorpg.com or some other forum saying they think that the sandbox, open market and player driven empires look cool, and the next 5 replies are people responding that you cant engage with any of that unless you bot then the paradigm has broken.

Eve is fairly unique among mmo's and one of those unique points is its weakness to botting and the disproportionate affect bots have on every player. If that becomes common knowledge repeated by non eve players then eve is just another space mmo and the free market counts for nothing.


then you better not go and try that theory out...
oh wait maybe you should lol id like to see if this game is as fragile as you claim

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:32:00 - [906]
 

Edited by: Richard Aiel on 17/02/2011 16:44:40
Edited by: Richard Aiel on 17/02/2011 16:37:19
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2

When will you disband alliances that allows botting and get direct benefit from them ( macro ravens and exquerors)



lol they didnt even disband the alliance that got the dev created T2 stuff in T20 OR fire the employee caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The only one I know that got banned from that was the guy that blew the whistle lol


Lol if that is true the more i think is that botting are just part of the system.


IF that is true? google is your friend lol its not hard to find info on T20

Originally by: Jack Gilligan

How long has this thread been up? What has CCP said substantively about botters or their plans to do anything about them?



The fact of how long this thread has been up and its the only bot related thread that isnt getting pruned to death or locked/deleted SHOWS their attitude towards bots:

Limit it to one thread so it can be easily ignored and we can kill all the rest of the threads that try and talk about it

Originally by: yani dumyat


CCP knew they were tying their RL income to the in game market when they released GTC and then plex, if their accountants have failed to account for market bubbles then more fool them.



Didnt they hire an actual economist for the game? Did dude work for Enron?

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:39:00 - [907]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do?


Myself, I'd go for the 20% ban, and track the isk from those banned accounts to see where it was going. Even if you only have solid evidence to ban 1% of the mains that are directly benefitting from botting, making those bans public knowledge will have the effect of showing that botting is actually against the rules, CCP does care, and give players that are considering botting (or are not fully committed to doing it) something to think about.

Reducing the efficiency of all bots by 20% would be the same as taking ~5 hours away from their day and leaving the other ~18.5 hours alone; there is still a massive advantage to botting, esp if you're fielding several of them.

gfldex
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:45:00 - [908]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do?


You can't reduce efficiency of bots. All you will get are more bots to compensate.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:47:00 - [909]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 17/02/2011 16:15:27

If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do?


Ban the botters. The drone region nerfs are clearly aimed at the Russian bot alliances, but won't do anything in the end except punish honest players and make the area even more inhospitable to anyone who isn't a bot.

Kengutsi Akira
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:52:00 - [910]
 

Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 17/02/2011 17:06:22
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 17/02/2011 16:15:27

If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do?


If you worked at CCP and you had the choice between the bots and the company work for getting all the money or you getting a cut via GTC and plex, what would you do?

Point made
lol

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2011.02.17 17:45:00 - [911]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 17/02/2011 16:15:27

If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do?


As a techie person I'd ban the bots because they cause much more server load than a real player.

As a game designer I'd ban the bots because they break the game for everyone.

As a marketing guy I'd do nothing because bots contribute to inflated PCU numbers, so EVE can claim one PCU record after the other, knowing it's 50% or more bots.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2011.02.17 17:57:00 - [912]
 

Originally by: Kengutsi Akira


If you worked at CCP and you had the choice between the bots and the company work for getting all the money or you getting a cut via GTC and plex, what would you do?

Point made
lol


Facepalm

Because bots are the only possible plex sink ever created, CCP never ever once considered the possibility of bubbles in the plex market when they were designing the system, leaving all the bots in place so ISK selling sites can have really low prices and having a large portion of the playerbase pi$$ed off about botting is a good way to make money?

Cheekything
Gallente
Black Lance
Posted - 2011.02.17 18:02:00 - [913]
 

I dont think banning botters will work, yes they make a massive amount of isk, however I think all that will happen is they will just improve their AI to make them more random.

I do think that CCP should just make the places where botters are used less appealing for the botter and more appealing for a player who is sitting at his desk, things that require some imagination or intuition, things that bots just cannot do (or at least easily).

And RMT is evil :/

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.17 18:04:00 - [914]
 

Originally by: Cheekything
I dont think banning botters will work, yes they make a massive amount of isk, however I think all that will happen is they will just improve their AI to make them more random.

I do think that CCP should just make the places where botters are used less appealing for the botter and more appealing for a player who is sitting at his desk, things that require some imagination or intuition, things that bots just cannot do (or at least easily).

And RMT is evil :/


Doesn't matter how "random" they make the behavior, they will always stick out like a sore thumb if CCP would bother to look. As the EN24 article stated, these guys are literally on from after downtime to next downtime. Literally 23/7. No real player could do that.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2011.02.17 18:21:00 - [915]
 

Originally by: Sator Nyatt
As stated, it fuels the plex market.
And screws up the market for legitimate players.

Originally by: Sator Nyatt
22 titans were fielded, 110+ supers, plus carriers, dreads, etc. OVER 100 SUPERS.
And this is a good thing? I remember when having a Titan meant something, and fielding it was a big deal.

Originally by: Sator Nyatt
You cannot have these battles without bots. [...] you need a million human miners in hisec to get together the amount of tritanium that was on the field in these supercaps.
As it should be.

Originally by: Sator Nyatt
Lastly, if you crunch bots, mineral prices shoot up, and ships get more expensive until capital ship production/demand slows.
Good. Cap Ships Online is a boring game to play.

Originally by: Sator Nyatt
So hurting bots hurts [...] to some degree, access to PVP, which is what EVE is supposed to be about.
Quite the opposite. Hurting bots levels the playing field by removing an unfair, against-the-rules advantage, allowing people to compete fairly. This means less T2 blobs, less super cap blobs, and fewer silly stories of 20+ titans. That means a lower barrier to entry for everyone else.

Dawnmist
Posted - 2011.02.17 18:28:00 - [916]
 

After seeing how high this entire botting issue is on CCP's "things to ignore"-list, goals and fun factor of this game have pretty much died away.

Thank you for ruining it.

-dawn

Kengutsi Akira
Posted - 2011.02.17 18:29:00 - [917]
 

Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 17/02/2011 18:32:14
Funny thing about the bots, even if all the players leave except the hard core players, more bots will join and more an more plex will be bought so CCP wiull still make money lol
so quitting doesnt even hurt them

to above can i have your stuff?

Archbeholder
Posted - 2011.02.17 19:08:00 - [918]
 

Edited by: Archbeholder on 17/02/2011 19:08:26
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira
Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 17/02/2011 18:32:14
Funny thing about the bots, even if all the players leave except the hard core players, more bots will join and more an more plex will be bought so CCP wiull still make money lol
so quitting doesnt even hurt them

to above can i have your stuff?


Funny thing about the bots, if all players leave there wont be anyone left to pay for plex lol

edit:forgot lol

Ger Tomard
Caldari
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
Posted - 2011.02.17 19:47:00 - [919]
 

Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread.

Botting sure, show me RMT proof.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:08:00 - [920]
 

Originally by: Ger Tomard
Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread.

Botting sure, show me RMT proof.


Do you mean other than the admission by a botter to eve24? Also the top is mainly focussed on botting, which is a major issue.

Avila Cracko
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:58:00 - [921]
 

Originally by: Ger Tomard
Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread.

Botting sure, show me RMT proof.



Maybe this:

RMT Uncovered: The Interview

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:59:00 - [922]
 

Originally by: Ger Tomard
Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread.

Botting sure, show me RMT proof.

Except in the thread. Try reading the thread then posting....

Then check out k.ugutsumens site, theres another expose there, specifically on page 3 by a guy named rmfhorus iirc. Post 117 at the bottom is the juicy info.

Then google "h-bot". The client reading bots developed after the source code leak are much better. Read their forums.

Then read the Eve24.com articles ffs(of which there are many - and remember this is CCP endorsed)

Or spend 5 seconds googling to buy or sell isk. Yup joe average player can sell your hard earned isk for real cash (and risk a ban - don't do it ppl) on easily accessable exchange sites.

Finally this quote may be relevent to your situation: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt"

Avila Cracko
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:04:00 - [923]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Originally by: Ger Tomard
Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread.

Botting sure, show me RMT proof.

Except in the thread. Try reading the thread then posting....

Then check out k.ugutsumens site, theres another expose there, specifically on page 3 by a guy named rmfhorus iirc. Post 117 at the bottom is the juicy info.

Then google "h-bot". The client reading bots developed after the source code leak are much better. Read their forums.

Then read the Eve24.com articles ffs(of which there are many - and remember this is CCP endorsed)

Or spend 5 seconds googling to buy or sell isk. Yup joe average player can sell your hard earned isk for real cash (and risk a ban - don't do it ppl) on easily accessable exchange sites.

Finally this quote may be relevent to your situation: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt"




THNX for all this links on one place... Wink

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:29:00 - [924]
 

Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Opertone
Can you assume that CCP employees have a feeling that EVE is dying or that perhaps they do not make enough money, so they strike a deal with ISK selling companies and not interfere in their activities. In return they get X ~ (1-20) % of the money by a private transfer.

In simple words CCP staff makes money on RMT, diverting profit from their company to their personal accounts. This can be a clear, logical explanation.


No.

CCP as a company is maximising the revenue stream that it has NOW to the exclusion of all else. The way they are behaving its likely the revenue stream is decreasing WAY more rapidly than they thought. There are two games (one costing WAY WAY more than they got told at acquisition) hanging on the Eve revenue stream so you work it out.

Employees diverting isk to their own accounts? Dream on and find another tin hat.



Employees have nothing to do with it.


try to understand me... some guy, a dev, a technician or a GM wants to make extra cash, so he cheats on the company and strikes a deal with RMT. He is jealous, angry or doesn't care about reparation. As if Iceland economy was slow after the crisis and certain people prefer hard cash.

I assume the company itself would not sell ISK on the black market.

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:50:00 - [925]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217

Then check out k.ugutsumens site, theres another expose there, specifically on page 3 by a guy named rmfhorus iirc. Post 117 at the bottom is the juicy info.

Then google "h-bot". The client reading bots developed after the source code leak are much better. Read their forums.

Then read the Eve24.com articles ffs(of which there are many - and remember this is CCP endorsed)

Or spend 5 seconds googling to buy or sell isk. Yup joe average player can sell your hard earned isk for real cash (and risk a ban - don't do it ppl) on easily accessable exchange sites.

Finally this quote may be relevent to your situation: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt"


Botting and RMT pigs must be slit cut and bleed to death! Bacon Bacon Bacon (just a troll)

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.02.17 22:00:00 - [926]
 

Originally by: Opertone


try to understand me... some guy, a dev, a technician or a GM wants to make extra cash, so he cheats on the company and strikes a deal with RMT. He is jealous, angry or doesn't care about reparation. As if Iceland economy was slow after the crisis and certain people prefer hard cash.

I assume the company itself would not sell ISK on the black market.


There was a thread where it was asked if CCP devs actually play eve. They chimed in in large numbers saying yes, that there are internal affairs people at CCP to insure no cheating takes place, and these internal affairs folks take their job very seriously. Apparently past events with BPO's and whatnot has made CCP do whats needed to its house clean. So I highly doubt anyone at CCP is selling isk.

Now if they were only so diligent when it came to bots.....

Turzyx
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.02.18 00:17:00 - [927]
 

Originally by: Avila Cracko
Originally by: Ger Tomard
Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread.

Botting sure, show me RMT proof.



Maybe this:

RMT Uncovered: The Interview


Fascinating read.


Quoted for emphasis.

Quote:
What is the impact on eve community regarding thes bots? Do you think it really destroys the game or as some suggest, if CCP doesnt care we shouldnt too?

I think that with whis new generation, eve is pretty much rotten, from the core, when ppl like me will organize not at individual level but with 5-10 ppl, will sort up alliance with infinite and untouchable income able to born in 2 month and able to field 100ms.

With only 300-400 real players in PL in this sense is an expression of this, since 80% of the isk they received from russian is from bots. What i am afraid is when ppl will do this at pro level, only for the purpose to own and steamroll.

Every game that will become heavy bot, or read cheat inflactioned, is indeed destinate to fall. Eve was cool becouse had limited number of exploits, impossible to cheat without bugs, now? is like a 3rd series free mmporg fps with aimbotter and wallhacker. It will lose all credibility, than clients.



VaMei
Posted - 2011.02.18 00:17:00 - [928]
 

Edited by: VaMei on 18/02/2011 00:41:26
Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217

Then check out k.ugutsumens site, theres another expose there, specifically on page 3 by a guy named rmfhorus iirc. Post 117 at the bottom is the juicy info.

Then google "h-bot". The client reading bots developed after the source code leak are much better. Read their forums.

Then read the Eve24.com articles ffs(of which there are many - and remember this is CCP endorsed)

Or spend 5 seconds googling to buy or sell isk. Yup joe average player can sell your hard earned isk for real cash (and risk a ban - don't do it ppl) on easily accessable exchange sites.

Finally this quote may be relevent to your situation: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt"

What I fail to understand, is how anyone that plays Eve as an MMO could read the news and still fail to understand how bots hurt the game. When empires are bought and sold for real money, what's the point of putting your hard earned gear in harm's way?

I imagine that there will always be those in the tin foil hat crowd that don't believe any of this is true. To them I have to ask, is there any part to the whole story that can't be true? If it could all be true, is there any reason that no one has done it or is still doing it?

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.02.18 01:17:00 - [929]
 

I have heard lately the GREAT idea in my opinion of tracking where the bot isk/mins go to.

I agree that it will be impossible to get all the bots out and will take a big effort to remove a good chunk of em.

But what is needed is fear. Fear of breaking the EULA leads to real in game consequences.

A few big name bans with direct evidence (As in an investigation not some easily contested "You are playing too much") of bots contributing to their operations will do wonders to install fear. But in my opinion take it further than that. If a supercap has more than a certain percentage of bot created minerals inside of it? It gets destroyed on the spot. The loss of Titans and moms will cause extreme tears from botting idiots and WILL reduce the BIGGEST issue with botting currently atm in my opinion which is the lack of value in fleet engagements. When they cant have bots running to replace their moms and titans due to fear of the CCP effort. 12 titans lost or 4 or 25 or even 1 will be a HUGE blow not something replaced next week by bots.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.02.18 01:37:00 - [930]
 

Originally by: Zachstar
What is needed is fear. Fear of breaking the EULA [with] real in game consequences.


Law, without force, is impotent.
Blaise Pascal


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