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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Sirius Cassiopeiae
Posted - 2011.02.16 21:11:00 - [871]
 

ok... and... *if* they were all permabanned... how did that help us in long run?
we are at the same place where we would be without that "Unholy rage".

that kind of PR things dont work...
if botting is problem, then its problem allways... and CCP need to work on it all the time and implement things that will prevent it...
and not only when PR says so... and only then...

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2011.02.16 21:35:00 - [872]
 

CCP when will you ban supercap fleet bought on e-bay for more than 1 day.

When will you disband alliances that allows botting and get direct benefit from them ( macro ravens and exquerors)

When will you deal with HORDS of hi-sec macro miners , missioners, haulers, traders .

????????????????

There is very much chance some of DEVS could be dirty into RMT, becuase you are shooting yourself into leg in here.




Superkiller NinjaPirate
Posted - 2011.02.16 21:39:00 - [873]
 

"Unholy rage" was a very good thing. The problem, and the most important thing now, two years later, is that we all see RMT in just the top of an iceberg of ****.

Botting, as many of us already wrote, do not necessarily involve RMT ... and it is very likely that a vast majority of the cash from macroing is directly inejected in players/corp/alliances wallets. These dirty isks are used to build 0.0 sov empires, supercap/cap fleets, and even to maintain pvp players etc.

p.s.
isn't there a "wall of shame" around these boards ? with the names of players/corp/ally that do bot ? or it is something CCP will censurate fast ?

lolioverbidu
Posted - 2011.02.16 22:02:00 - [874]
 

Its ****ing ridiculous when legitimate players have to consider botting in order to remain competitve with other people in nullsec.

HowardStern
Posted - 2011.02.16 22:02:00 - [875]
 

Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate


p.s.
isn't there a "wall of shame" around these boards ? with the names of players/corp/ally that do bot ? or it is something CCP will censurate fast ?


That would last roughly exactly zero point zero seconds.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.02.16 22:33:00 - [876]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.


still waiting ...

I just read the evenews story posted here and I have to say, no single writing has ever depressed me more about a game than this one...

Eden Love
Posted - 2011.02.16 22:47:00 - [877]
 

ITS NOT ABOUT RMT in first place. RMT is only the tip of the iceberg. RMT is more important for CCp then for the players. I dont care if some idiot pays 40 dollar for some titan.

The problem is botting and macro use to gain an advantage ingame!
And about that topic CCP doesnt care. There are enough examples now that show that they dont do a damn thing. 1 day bans etc.

It needs to be the number one priority to make life for the bots at least hard. You may never stop them completely. Just make the client safe! Check how the bots operate and when you got one who is 100% bot perma ban him!

Sator Nyatt
Posted - 2011.02.16 23:44:00 - [878]
 

I doubt if any Eve employees are RMTing, unless CCP pays really really bad wages, the income stream relative to their job income probably isn't there. RMTing is much more valuable to players in countries where 15 US dollars means more than a Mcdonald's breakfast for 2.

However, i would wager 100% that there are many EVE employees who play the game in large sov holding alliances that happily look the other way every day to botters. RMT may be focused into some country-demographics but botting is universal.

There are many ways to catch a nullsec botter, it requires a little patience and some luck (and hopefully not finding one in a system with 23 belts) but its not that hard to do. The reality is, though, that a raven in a reasonable security system (around -0.3) can net upwards of 3-4 billion isk a month in bounties. You're looking at 6-10 billion a month in those sweet -0.8 to -1.0 systems that the big alliances keep for themselves. Plus special spawns. Killing a couple ravens doesn't really hurt the botter, it just slows them down for a day while they refit and rearm.

Rental alliances often are rich with bots, because many alliances base their rental costs off the assumption you use it. Ex-IT space, you'd pay what, 2-3 billion a month in rental for a single system? Many southern areas charge slightly less, around 1-2 billion per system (plus sov fees, plus POS, upgrades, and other running costs). When you're only allowed 1 corp per system, how do you think players afford the space and still have enough money to make it worth being there?

I remember being in 0.0 not too long ago, when a corpmate found a botter. Instead of shooting at them, he merely parked a cloaky alt in system, and left it there, for days and days, triggering the ratting bot to safe and cloak up. One day, he got a message from a person in the sov-holding alliance (the bot was a neut alt, though), demanding he get out of system because it was interfering with the bot. He not only freely admitted that this character was a bot, he also demanded reparations for the lost income of having said bot idle (which wasn't paid, of course). We have been about to rent space in other instances, only to have a 1.8 billion per month system taken from us and given to a 2-man corp (we were going to send neut cloakies to bankrupt him too, but in the end couldn't be bothered).

These instances are pretty common. Looking over botting forums, there's plenty of chatter about why its ok to use them, and how not to get banned, and also what might trigger a ban. The EULA is written in such a way that OCR bots occupy a grey area that is against the spirit of the EULA but not the letter. The instance of bans being reported on forums like H-Bot and other EVE bot sites is very rare.

Its unfortunate, CCP, that while you may have 1 or 2 devs that do not like bots, the actions of your company as a whole encourages more and more botting. You can say, "Do not encourage botting" and you can say, "Taking down botters is something close to my heart" but the reality is that no resources are allocated to it, and even when players do all the work for you, you can't be arsed to even reply to them.

It would be far more economical and closer to CCP's current model to just buy the botting software and sell it from this website in a similar way you sell eve time codes. You could partner with companies selling VM server space for the purpose of running EVE clients. If you're not going to actually do something to actively or passively remove botting, then you might as well get a piece of the pie the same way you did with PLEX.

Of course, the PR ramifications of encouraging and 'taxing' cheating might be rather bad, probably worse than the 'incomptent/corrupt/lazy' PR you get now re: botting. But you'd get more profit. This is a tradeoff most sov alliances already happily take.

Kengutsi Akira
Posted - 2011.02.16 23:47:00 - [879]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/02/2011 03:59:26
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira
I dont get why ppl even buy isk in this game when you can get it from CCP in the form of PLEX.
Hm...
Buy it illegitimately and get banned
or
Buy it legally from CCP


Who the hell is CCP banning?

Right now there is absolutely NO RISK involved in massively making ISK by botting, nor honestly in purchasing ISK. Who the hell is CCP permabanning? That's right, NO ONE, not even people caught red handed as running bots, with irrefutable proof, banned 24 hours then back botting again!

Really, if I were going to buy ISK right now, Don't.

Removed EULA-violating suggestions. Spitfire


What I'd do if I were CCP: Permaban and disband bot alliances. Make it clear that it's the responsibility of alliances to NOT permit bot operations under their tags. Permaban ISK buyers.

Kill the supply AND demand.



Looks like at least the forum mods disagree

Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr
Posted - 2011.02.17 02:55:00 - [880]
 

Some hi-sec constellations should be re-classified as bot-sec, as they're inhabited by more bots than players.

In Otawasa ( http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/The_Citadel/Otawasa#const ), I would need more than six hands to count all the golem bots. Confused

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.02.17 03:42:00 - [881]
 

Many have said that eve is heavily botted because it has repetitive activities in it that are easily botted. The proposed solution is to make the gave more difficult. If it was as difficult as the game "Jeopardy" then a bot could never play it.


Oh wait.....

Cruel Crow
Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.02.17 04:00:00 - [882]
 

I'm taking cover! They call me a bot now because I'm playing more then hr or two. What's next?

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2011.02.17 04:55:00 - [883]
 

Edited by: Richard Aiel on 17/02/2011 05:07:19
Edited by: Richard Aiel on 17/02/2011 04:58:32
Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate
Originally by: Othran

Employees have nothing to do with it.


Are you so sure ? many employees play EvE like us, in the very same 0.0 alliances that rent systems to macro ratter or macro miners, in the very same 0.0 alliances that builded their supercapital/capital fleets with botting money.



Theyre also known to cheat... ever hear of T20...

Originally by: Jame Jarl Retief
Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate

One day I was jumping around in Venal in my shiny cov-op.
*SNIP*


Sadly I've yet to play an MMO where I have not seen this kind of behaviour, or an MMO where devs or GMs took a hard stance against it.

In the past 5 years alone I played, let's see...18 MMOs (holy cow!), ranging from big giant "one we don't mention on EVE forums, starts with a W" down to indie titles that barely sc****d together 60k subs at their peak. And in each one, I observed exactly what you described. I too tried reporting. Nothing was ever done. Not once. At best you get a GM that says they will look into it, and that's where it ends.

There was one time where I quit an MMO and came back nearly 2 years later and the very same character I reported was still botting in the exact same spot, wearing exact same gear, riding exact same mount. It was freaky, made me feel like I traveled back in time.

Long story short, Ive yet to see an MMO where the developers took actual tangible action against botters. From the sound of it, EVE is no exception. Pity... :(


Only one Ive seen where they did was Warhammer... they bqannedthem and put up a system message about torturing the offender to death or something lol

Originally by: yani dumyat


Once gaming sites start running articles mentioning bots in eve (and with the current level of noise they will) the whole paradigm behing eve's marketing, and to a big extent the game itself, will collapse.



Given that there are literally bots in every mmo, and noone cares in any other mmo about them, bots in an MMO isnt something likely to get front page news anywhere on the net, and nowhere will it get enough coverage to kill EVE

Slate Shoa
Posted - 2011.02.17 05:07:00 - [884]
 

Edited by: Slate Shoa on 17/02/2011 05:15:22
Edited by: Slate Shoa on 17/02/2011 05:09:24
Ummm... Others have said it before. This is a quick and easy solution.


  • DELAYED LOCAL


  • DELAYED LOCAL


  • DELAYED LOCAL


  • DELAYED LOCAL


  • DELAYED LOCAL


  • DELAYED LOCAL


  • DELAYED LOCAL



Seriously though, even if local was delayed for as little as one minute, this would have drastic impacts on botters.

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2011.02.17 05:09:00 - [885]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2

When will you disband alliances that allows botting and get direct benefit from them ( macro ravens and exquerors)



lol they didnt even disband the alliance that got the dev created T2 stuff in T20 OR fire the employee caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The only one I know that got banned from that was the guy that blew the whistle lol

Swanky nutjob
Posted - 2011.02.17 07:36:00 - [886]
 

Its sad that 0.0 politics is now being affected by bot financed alliances. Really CCP, get down to the drone lands and use the information given to you to perma ban the 80 + bots you've been told about already, not just 1 day bans.

Other MMO publishers take action to perma ban, even going as far as contacting ISP's to blacklist (I know, I worked at a large MMO publisher), CCP endorses botting.

Superkiller NinjaPirate
Posted - 2011.02.17 11:34:00 - [887]
 

Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2

When will you disband alliances that allows botting and get direct benefit from them ( macro ravens and exquerors)



lol they didnt even disband the alliance that got the dev created T2 stuff in T20 OR fire the employee caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The only one I know that got banned from that was the guy that blew the whistle lol


yeah lol ... he was banned and censored his name on forum ... ********** ... k u g u t s u m e n

that explain alot about how CCP deals with cheating and stuff

Knobfer Jones
Posted - 2011.02.17 11:41:00 - [888]
 

LOUD NOISES

Richard Christy
Posted - 2011.02.17 12:32:00 - [889]
 

Is there a channel set up to report systems currently being used to bot rat?

Nina Mercedez
Posted - 2011.02.17 12:36:00 - [890]
 

Originally by: Sator Nyatt
a bunch of interesting stuffs.


Did you report the guy who complained about being ruined by being AFK cloaked?

Kengutsi Akira
Posted - 2011.02.17 13:54:00 - [891]
 

They need to make a cloaking miner where you cant see the beams either. lol then noone will be able to complain cause noone will see them

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2011.02.17 15:11:00 - [892]
 

Originally by: Slate Shoa
Edited by: Slate Shoa on 17/02/2011 05:15:22
Edited by: Slate Shoa on 17/02/2011 05:09:24
Ummm... Others have said it before. This is a quick and easy solution.

  • DELAYED LOCAL

Seriously though, even if local was delayed for as little as one minute, this would have drastic impacts on botters.

I'm pretty sure the client reading bot will show who enters system even with local minimised/delayed. All this will do is hand even more advantage to the exploiters. If not tho, I am right behind this idea.

On a similar vein, perhaps a deployable object that appears to all clients identical to a real player would have an effect, a fake local/d-scan sig etc. You could simply bounce around systems dropping these and stop all botting.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2011.02.17 15:28:00 - [893]
 

Edited by: yani dumyat on 17/02/2011 15:30:22
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: yani dumyat
Once gaming sites start running articles mentioning bots in eve (and with the current level of noise they will) the whole paradigm behing eve's marketing, and to a big extent the game itself, will collapse.


Given that there are literally bots in every mmo, and noone cares in any other mmo about them, bots in an MMO isnt something likely to get front page news anywhere on the net, and nowhere will it get enough coverage to kill EVE



I didn't say that coverage would kill eve (though too many bots will eventually do so), I said that the paradigm would break down. The whole point of having a single server and free market economy is that the game isn't just pvp it's eve, everyone vs everyone.

The market is the absolute core of the game, it defines everything from the ships you can afford to fly, your ability to wage war, the amount of time you have to spend carebearing to have a decent income etc.

If it gets to the point where someone posts on mmorpg.com or some other forum saying they think that the sandbox, open market and player driven empires look cool, and the next 5 replies are people responding that you cant engage with any of that unless you bot then the paradigm has broken.

Eve is fairly unique among mmo's and one of those unique points is its weakness to botting and the disproportionate affect bots have on every player. If that becomes common knowledge repeated by non eve players then eve is just another space mmo and the free market counts for nothing.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.02.17 15:32:00 - [894]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Originally by: Slate Shoa

  • DELAYED LOCAL

I'm pretty sure the client reading bot will show who enters system even with local minimised/delayed. All this will do is hand even more advantage to the exploiters. If not tho, I am right behind this idea.
If delayed local is reworked such that the client doesn't have the information until it should have it, then there's no information for the bot program to get.

'Security' in 0.0 would almost loose meaning (worse in NPC 0.0), but it would give purpose back to small gang roams, and Black Ops would probably become the new FotM.

Morgen Truffaud
Posted - 2011.02.17 15:34:00 - [895]
 

Edited by: Morgen Truffaud on 17/02/2011 15:35:07
Edited by: Morgen Truffaud on 17/02/2011 15:34:39
One more bot = One more account = $15 more for CCP per month.

Bots make money for CCP. Until they don't, don't expect to see any changes.

Tbh., the most honest thing CCP could do right now is change the EULA so botting is allowed. Then we'd at least have a level playing field. Having an EULA that they have no intention of enforcing is meaningless.

Right now they claim they're doing something when it's quite obvious that they aren't. And why should they spend money finding bots when banning botting accounts will in all likelihood end up decreasing their revenue? It doesn't make sense.

There are plenty of blogs out there where people have given CCP all the evidence needed on a silver platter and absolutely nothing happens. They're just not interested.

CCP - committed to excellence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivdeuedajko

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2011.02.17 15:39:00 - [896]
 

Originally by: Morgen Truffaud
Edited by: Morgen Truffaud on 17/02/2011 15:34:39
One more bot = One more account = $15 more for CCP per month.



Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales. Players who would have bought plex with cash (ie the people paying the £15 a month for the botters account) are the ones who give money to CCP.

Go read the last couple of pages of this thread if you don't understand how botters cause CCP financial loss.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2011.02.17 15:52:00 - [897]
 

Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2

When will you disband alliances that allows botting and get direct benefit from them ( macro ravens and exquerors)



lol they didnt even disband the alliance that got the dev created T2 stuff in T20 OR fire the employee caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The only one I know that got banned from that was the guy that blew the whistle lol


Lol if that is true the more i think is that botting are just part of the system.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.17 15:52:00 - [898]
 

Originally by: Sirius Cassiopeiae
ok... and... *if* they were all permabanned... how did that help us in long run?
we are at the same place where we would be without that "Unholy rage".

that kind of PR things dont work...
if botting is problem, then its problem allways... and CCP need to work on it all the time and implement things that will prevent it...
and not only when PR says so... and only then...


Unholy Rage DID work.

If you monitor the seller sites (I do out of curiosity) the cost of ISK for real money skyrocketed after the mass bannings of botters. Before UR the cost of ISK from the RMT sites was a lot cheaper than selling GTC's. After it, they had no price advantage over GTC.

That situation persisted for several months. The botters probably were reluctant to commit to setting things up again because they assumed they'd be looking at getting caught in UR II, UR III, etc. They got back in when it became clear that UR was a one time deal and NOT the establishment of a new, permanent operation against bots and RMT.

At the same time, CCP got rid of the old system of 30 and 90 day GTC's which had to be transacted manually in favor of a 60 day PLEX which could be bought and sold through market orders. The new system raised the prices of GTC's to a premium over a regular subscription. Remember that 30 day codes used to cost $15 and 90 day codes $45, the new 60 day codes cost $35 which is almost as much as the old 90 day codes but gives 1/3rd less game time.

So what happened was a combination of CCP ceasing any serious efforts to continue Unholy Rage AND the introduction of a system that is a macro RMT'ers dream: the ability to fund the ENTIRE OPERATION on nothing but in game currency they themselves are mass producing, AND to be able to transact it nearly anonymously. They could do the same thing in the old system but it would have required some level of interaction directly with real players, and only when sellers were online. Now they can transact game time anonymously, 23 hours a day.

Is there any question, then as to WHY the proliferation of bots and RMT'ing of ISK has boomed to unprecedented levels in this environment? The cost of ISK on the RMT sites now is back down to (or below) the levels prior to UR, to the point that buying ISK itself then buying a PLEX in game with it is cheaper than the cost of an actual subscription to the game, by about 30-40%.

I put the blame here COMPLETELY on CCP, for failing to sustain UR, AND for implementing the PLEX system without thought to how it would make setting up bot/RMT operations in this game so stupidly easy that we'd end up with more botters and sellers THAN EVER BEFORE? It's clearly a case of the greed of marketing overcoming the objections of designers, that is, if anyone realized what kind of monster they were introducing in the first place.


Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.02.17 15:55:00 - [899]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 17/02/2011 15:58:05
Originally by: yani dumyat
Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales.

Bots create demand for Plex, adding value to them. People that pay cash for plex to sell then for isk do so only beacuse Plex have that value.

IF bots were gone and the price of Plex crashed, how many people do you think would continue to pay cash to buy more? How many paying accounts would switch to using Plex to keep their account alive?

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.17 15:56:00 - [900]
 

Originally by: yani dumyat
Originally by: Morgen Truffaud
Edited by: Morgen Truffaud on 17/02/2011 15:34:39
One more bot = One more account = $15 more for CCP per month.



Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales. Players who would have bought plex with cash (ie the people paying the £15 a month for the botters account) are the ones who give money to CCP.

Go read the last couple of pages of this thread if you don't understand how botters cause CCP financial loss.


If this were true the PLEX market would die for lack of supply, and they'd be selling for crazy prices on the market when anyone actually bothered to purchase some for sale. The bots are driving demand for PLEX on the market, which naturally stimulates supply.

The bots need to operate via the ISK they farm, which they use to buy a PLEX, then use the rest of their botted ISK to sell on the market. If they were unable to do so, their real costs would rise and so would the price of illicit ISK.



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