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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Rasz Lin
Caldari
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
Posted - 2010.12.15 10:53:00 - [361]
 

Edited by: Rasz Lin on 15/12/2010 10:55:02
Originally by: Aylara
It's cheaper to tolerate the bots to a certain amount than to change the game mechanics.


What do you mean "cheaper"? The bots are the ones PROVIDING INCOME for CCP. Every bot generates isk that later pays for 20-50 PLEXes per month. Bots enable people to pay for plex = they create demand for PLEX = CCP sells more PLEX.

The only thing CCP doesnt like is competition from RTMers, but CCP LOVES bots.

Last time they banned bots (unholy rage) PLEX price plummeted down as people didnt have ISK to buy plex = demand for PLEX dropped = incentive to buy PLEX from CCP in order to get ISK dropped = CCP lost money on the whole operation. They wont do it again.

Hueijin San
Gallente
Estrale Frontiers
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:11:00 - [362]
 

"Remember, remember, the 5th of December,
RMT traders and bots."

Ben, can you complete the doggerel?

Tornan
Minmatar
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:23:00 - [363]
 

Originally by: Rasz Lin
Edited by: Rasz Lin on 15/12/2010 10:55:02
Originally by: Aylara
It's cheaper to tolerate the bots to a certain amount than to change the game mechanics.


What do you mean "cheaper"? The bots are the ones PROVIDING INCOME for CCP. Every bot generates isk that later pays for 20-50 PLEXes per month. Bots enable people to pay for plex = they create demand for PLEX = CCP sells more PLEX.

The only thing CCP doesnt like is competition from RTMers, but CCP LOVES bots.

Last time they banned bots (unholy rage) PLEX price plummeted down as people didnt have ISK to buy plex = demand for PLEX dropped = incentive to buy PLEX from CCP in order to get ISK dropped = CCP lost money on the whole operation. They wont do it again.


I dont understand your logic, if I buy plex with isk they make no money off me. If they removed plex I would have to buy the regular subscription, unless your saying that ccp generates more money by sselling isk.

Mernek
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:42:00 - [364]
 

Originally by: Tornan
Originally by: Rasz Lin
Edited by: Rasz Lin on 15/12/2010 10:55:02
Originally by: Aylara
It's cheaper to tolerate the bots to a certain amount than to change the game mechanics.


What do you mean "cheaper"? The bots are the ones PROVIDING INCOME for CCP. Every bot generates isk that later pays for 20-50 PLEXes per month. Bots enable people to pay for plex = they create demand for PLEX = CCP sells more PLEX.

The only thing CCP doesnt like is competition from RTMers, but CCP LOVES bots.

Last time they banned bots (unholy rage) PLEX price plummeted down as people didnt have ISK to buy plex = demand for PLEX dropped = incentive to buy PLEX from CCP in order to get ISK dropped = CCP lost money on the whole operation. They wont do it again.


I dont understand your logic, if I buy plex with isk they make no money off me. If they removed plex I would have to buy the regular subscription, unless your saying that ccp generates more money by sselling isk.


They make no money directly from you, but that PLEX you bought is not seeded by CCP, it is bought from CCP by someone else and put on the market.

PLEX is not necessarily used up at the time of purchase, it can be stockpiled, it has been stockpiled. More gametime is in circulation as a result of PLEX than if we just had regular subscriptions. Of course this is also a liability for CCP as there is always the possibilty of that PLEX gametime being used up at the expense of subscriptions later. Although if a few players are controlling the sales of PLEX, I doubt that would happen. Essentially there will be PLEX gametime on the servers long after they have been shutdown and we are all playing something else. That is why PLEX makes CCP more money than regular subscriptions.

Rasz Lin
Caldari
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:47:00 - [365]
 

Originally by: Tornan
Originally by: Rasz Lin
Edited by: Rasz Lin on 15/12/2010 10:55:02
Originally by: Aylara
It's cheaper to tolerate the bots to a certain amount than to change the game mechanics.


What do you mean "cheaper"? The bots are the ones PROVIDING INCOME for CCP. Every bot generates isk that later pays for 20-50 PLEXes per month. Bots enable people to pay for plex = they create demand for PLEX = CCP sells more PLEX.

The only thing CCP doesnt like is competition from RTMers, but CCP LOVES bots.

Last time they banned bots (unholy rage) PLEX price plummeted down as people didnt have ISK to buy plex = demand for PLEX dropped = incentive to buy PLEX from CCP in order to get ISK dropped = CCP lost money on the whole operation. They wont do it again.


I dont understand your logic, if I buy plex with isk they make no money off me. If they removed plex I would have to buy the regular subscription, unless your saying that ccp generates more money by sselling isk.


CCP tapped and monetized "Free to play" market with PLEX. Removing PLEX means losing huge chunk of EVE population. Remember that "Free to play + microtransaction" is becoming the norm. CCP can either somehow let those people participate in EVE (PLEX) or lose money .... or convert to microtransaction completely.

CCP doesnt sell ISK, they sell PLEX. They will sell isk if/when they convert to microtransaction model.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:52:00 - [366]
 

Originally by: Rasz Lin

Last time they banned bots (unholy rage)


Actually they never banned bots, unholy rage was to tackle RMT


Mernek
Posted - 2010.12.15 11:58:00 - [367]
 

Best way to look at it is by using unholy rage as an example. Rasz said ccp lost money and they won't do it again. We can show how they 'lost money' but whether they do it again is dependent upon how virtuous they are.

I wrote above about the PLEX + subscription gametime being in excess of subscription gametime alone. I tried to explain how this selling of PLEX can therefore create at any one time a greater revenue for CCP than subscriptions alone. I also said that this is also somewhat of a liability as this gametime in the system could be used up at the expense of subscriptions. In a sense you can say that PLEX are an advance for CCP.

SO, recap over, on to unholy rage.

As Rasz said unholy rage banned a large number of botters, likely not those just involved in RMT. As a result the demand for PLEX fell. This is for 2 reasons. Firstly the bot accounts themselves are paid for with PLEX and secondly, the RMT isk is cheaper than PLEX isk (or there would be no RMT) so people were buying a bil for 20 dollars and buying 3 months of gametime in the form of PLEX. 3 times the gametime you can get legitimately. When the demand for plex fell, so did the price.

This did two things, legitimate PLEX sellers stopped selling and more players started to fund their game time through PLEX. This eats into that giant liability CCP have, revenue per month fell and who knows maybe they were idiots and already spent the advance from the community.

There will be people who cry at this and say that the increase in PLEX used after unholy rage should have caused a price increase. I'm sure it did, gradually, a little. But nowhere near as volatile as teh changes we saw due to removal of bots.

I think that volatility shows just how many are at work here.

Mernek
Posted - 2010.12.15 12:03:00 - [368]
 

Originally by: Rasz Lin
Originally by: Tornan
Originally by: Rasz Lin
Edited by: Rasz Lin on 15/12/2010 10:55:02
Originally by: Aylara
It's cheaper to tolerate the bots to a certain amount than to change the game mechanics.


What do you mean "cheaper"? The bots are the ones PROVIDING INCOME for CCP. Every bot generates isk that later pays for 20-50 PLEXes per month. Bots enable people to pay for plex = they create demand for PLEX = CCP sells more PLEX.

The only thing CCP doesnt like is competition from RTMers, but CCP LOVES bots.

Last time they banned bots (unholy rage) PLEX price plummeted down as people didnt have ISK to buy plex = demand for PLEX dropped = incentive to buy PLEX from CCP in order to get ISK dropped = CCP lost money on the whole operation. They wont do it again.


I dont understand your logic, if I buy plex with isk they make no money off me. If they removed plex I would have to buy the regular subscription, unless your saying that ccp generates more money by sselling isk.


CCP tapped and monetized "Free to play" market with PLEX. Removing PLEX means losing huge chunk of EVE population. Remember that "Free to play + microtransaction" is becoming the norm. CCP can either somehow let those people participate in EVE (PLEX) or lose money .... or convert to microtransaction completely.

CCP doesnt sell ISK, they sell PLEX. They will sell isk if/when they convert to microtransaction model.


Bold part is a bit naive. RL cash --> GTC --> PLEX --> ISK is CCP selling isk, it's just got some extra steps so some smart arse lawyer doesnt start clamouring for us to start paying tax on our isk irl.

Aabis Jeasu
Posted - 2010.12.15 14:37:00 - [369]
 

This game stopped being legit when they allowed people to hand over real money to become more powerful in game. What makes you think they would give a **** about bots at this point? Laughing

EvilFighter123
Posted - 2010.12.15 14:40:00 - [370]
 

Grammar ****: You spelt fed wrong.

Aeronwen Carys
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.15 14:44:00 - [371]
 

For god sake edit the title of this damned thread, its FED not feed. Got it?? F E D. you people **** me off.

EvilFighter123
Posted - 2010.12.15 14:47:00 - [372]
 

Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
For god sake edit the title of this damned thread, its FED not feed. Got it?? F E D. you people **** me off.



THANK YOU FOR THE SUPPORT Very Happy

Arugas Koken
Posted - 2010.12.15 23:14:00 - [373]
 

Apparently the Eryan code has been acquired by CCP and is being looked at.

Mernek
Posted - 2010.12.15 23:41:00 - [374]
 

I don't know what's more worrying, that they have only recently laid hands on it, or that someone in ccp told the brains behind the bots that they had.


Wartrec
Posted - 2010.12.16 12:04:00 - [375]
 

In case one of you macro users did not read this.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.16 13:17:00 - [376]
 

Seems like the patch yesterday and today has made people focus on other stuff.

I guess if you need anything doing right, you have todo it yourself.

Next Hulageddon in mid jan yeh?

OneTimeAt BannedSpank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
Posted - 2010.12.16 14:10:00 - [377]
 

http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/ladyspank/WINNERSisk.jpg

Image changed to URL as per the forum rules. StevieSG

Tornan
Minmatar
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:28:00 - [378]
 

wasnt CCP supposed to give an official response this week

Stratego
Ad Infernum
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:35:00 - [379]
 

Originally by: Tornan
wasnt CCP supposed to give an official response this week


Still a lot of time left of the week.

Commander Shipping
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:45:00 - [380]
 

Edited by: Commander Shipping on 16/12/2010 15:45:55
Originally by: EvilFighter123
Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
For god sake edit the title of this damned thread, its FED not feed. Got it?? F E D. you people **** me off.



THANK YOU FOR THE SUPPORT Very Happy


It is about understanding the contents of the post, not about spelling/grammar. 3/4 of the players are not from UK/US, so why would they care about it?.. If i post a link to a picture with a fist that has a middle finger raised up, you will understand either you speak English or not.
Internet is full of idiot s like you, who are using spelling/grammar as an argument.

****


Soma Khan
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:50:00 - [381]
 

Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
For god sake edit the title of this damned thread, its FED not feed. Got it?? F E D. you people **** me off.
apparently the owner of the thread got banned for rmt'ing, so there's no-one to fix the title. file a petition

trollerii
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:03:00 - [382]
 

Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
For god sake edit the title of this damned thread, its FED not feed. Got it?? F E D. you people **** me off.


Such an issue. The thread is incomprehensible because of an extra E in one of the words in the topic. People whining on things like this deserves to DIAF.

OT: Gonna be interesting with a statement from CCP, RMT is never fun for us that actually play the game legit.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:25:00 - [383]
 

The GM blog on this is out, as you can see the issue is RMT and botting is something that is difficult to detect.

DEVBLOG!!

Namira Incendie
Minmatar
Valor Enterprises
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:09:00 - [384]
 

Edited by: Namira Incendie on 16/12/2010 17:09:23
Originally by: Kalle Demos
The GM blog on this is out, as you can see the issue is RMT and botting is something that is difficult to detect.

DEVBLOG!!
Easy to detect, just look at the server resources usage from the Unholy Rage blog. It's hard to prove, but easy to detect. The smart ones wont have their main characters at risk at all, as all illegal activity is done remotely.

Also that devblog is a horrid excuse for a response. It'd be better off as a forum post.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.12.17 11:13:00 - [385]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
The GM blog on this is out, as you can see the issue is RMT and botting is something that is difficult to detect.

DEVBLOG!!


It's not difficult. You could copy a protection scheme used by Autodesk 2 decades ago to weed off the "thin clients". You can also inspect system that have 1 zillion belt kills a day and zero PVP activity. Just with the two above they could get hundreds of bots a day. If they also implemented my suggestions posted in the previous pages this would even achieve much more.

The worst result anyway is not being unable to defeat botters (they'll evolve over time) but the ambiguous at best messages that CCP sends to the player base. No other prominent MMO company seem so deaf and even complacent with botters like they do.
The blog you linked is an hurriedly up made piece of PR, with no substance, no commitment, no sense of serious and well programmed engagement.

Rasz Lin
Caldari
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
Posted - 2010.12.17 13:28:00 - [386]
 

The problem was NEVER with detecting. Problem is of economic nature. CCP crunched the numbers after Unholy Rage, came to the conclusion they lost money and decided to focus on RTMing alts instead of macro.
Read that blog again, not a word about macro being a problem. Only about RTM and how its competing with legal GTC sales.

CCP is in business of making money, macros provide ISK that is used to buy PLEX, CCP likes to sell a lot of PLEX. Its that simple.

Silen Boon
Posted - 2010.12.17 15:27:00 - [387]
 

The recent devblog, regarding this subject, suggested that CCPs focus was to stop RMTs. I think this is exceptionally unfair on the players who stick to the rules. The rules should be enforced regardless of CCPs preferences.

RMTs and bots need to be treated as different issues. Both are against CCPs rules, and are tackled in different ways.

Bots and Macros have a huge effect peoples game play. CCP needs to make it clear that using macroes is not acceptable, and people using them will be hunted down and banned. Sadly the devblog gave the impression that even if CCP suspect you were using a macro, they couldn't prove it.


Open Orifice
Posted - 2010.12.17 17:12:00 - [388]
 

Man, I can hardly wait until I can buy Skill Points for real cash....

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.12.17 17:23:00 - [389]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 17/12/2010 19:11:40
Originally by: Mernek

Originally by: Rasz Lin

CCP doesn't sell ISK, they sell PLEX. They will sell isk if/when they convert to micro transaction model.

Bold part is a bit naive. RL cash --> GTC --> PLEX --> ISK is CCP selling isk, it's just got some extra steps so some smart arse lawyer doesn't start clamoring for us to start paying tax on our isk irl.


CCP isn't selling isk. They're selling something that can be exchanged for isk through a self balancing game mechanic.

The differences may be subtle but they are important, and not only for the reason you offered:

1st Isk is not created by the transaction, which would dilute the value of isk; fueling inflation and the need for still more isk. The isk exchanged for the plex already exists within the game and is owned by another player.

2nd By trading plex across a player market, there is no fixed $$$ to isk ratio. If plex for isk becomes too popular, you get fewer isk for your RL money. If grind to play becomes too popular, then it costs progressively more isk to play.

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.12.17 21:18:00 - [390]
 

Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 17/12/2010 19:11:40
Originally by: Mernek

Originally by: Rasz Lin

CCP doesn't sell ISK, they sell PLEX. They will sell isk if/when they convert to micro transaction model.

Bold part is a bit naive. RL cash --> GTC --> PLEX --> ISK is CCP selling isk, it's just got some extra steps so some smart arse lawyer doesn't start clamoring for us to start paying tax on our isk irl.


CCP isn't selling isk. They're selling something that can be exchanged for isk through a self balancing game mechanic.

The differences may be subtle but they are important, and not only for the reason you offered:

1st Isk is not created by the transaction, which would dilute the value of isk; fueling inflation and the need for still more isk. The isk exchanged for the plex already exists within the game and is owned by another player.

2nd By trading plex across a player market, there is no fixed $$$ to isk ratio. If plex for isk becomes too popular, you get fewer isk for your RL money. If grind to play becomes too popular, then it costs progressively more isk to play.


I wouldn't phrase it as Mernek did but in essence CCP is selling isk, because the transaction happens the exact same way as someone paying $ to a RMT to get isk from another party the 'farmer'. The isk used to purchase a PLEX in game is made in nearly every way that the isk made to sell to another player for $ is at no time do RMT magically create isk from thin air on their own, CCP's progam does that when farmed by bots/macros. The only exception to the two methods is stealing isk from other accounts, it can and probably does happen when used for PLEX in the cases of corp theft, or for people who share login info etc but isn't significant compared to RMT operators who go after account data and try to see if people use the same info across communities/sites as their EVE account.

The difference we 'hope' between the two is that the isk made to buy plex is done so w/o bots/macros but we don't know since CCP seems not to be interested in making it harder for people who use bots/macros they are more interested in the accounts who sell isk, however it is made, for real money. And we hope the $ that CCP gets goes to bettering EVE and CCP so they are 'strong' to do what needs to be done, but once CCP gets your money or mine they can and will do whatever the **** they want with it, from getting into the console market, looking at making EVE f2p with micro-transactions or making a vampire game.


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