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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.12 13:33:00 - [301]
 

300th Snipe

Jaqel Broadside
Posted - 2010.12.12 13:36:00 - [302]
 

Originally by: betty drunkenlord
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.


CCP, fight the cause not effect!

etc



You are 100% right, if the game was actually worth playing and there was an ability to create corporations which would give everyone the ability field and fight for territory then people would have a very good reason to stay.

But the situation of alliances holding all the territory and the gank mechanics have left CCP with no room to manouvre, there is only one result possible - concentration of power and exclusion of the majority by the rich few.

But I'm sure CCP thought this would play into their hands as people would buy plex - even the botters.

But it hasn't worked has it ?

Ultimately your own game mechanics are doing more to help botters and create a self degenerating cirlce of pointless game play.

I can see only two reasons to play Eve -> Kill mails and griefing.

Not many people actually want to bother with this kind of stuff.

Still I don't see it ever ending, 7 years of null sec development and 0 years of high sec development and you still haven't learnt a thing.

Your still stuck in gank mode, get off the tread mill, drop the gank bat mobile and get on providing something people value playing.

PvP comes with the ability to have a stable income and the ability to apply that ISK, start providing legit ways corps can make that ISK through interaction.

Recently you keep introducing one after another of simple mind numbing boring repetative easily botted crap:
1) Planetary interaction
2) Rorqual,, like wtf ?
3) Sov mechanics, lets create some central target lagfests and botting activities required to improve systems.

Obvious stuff
1) Get rid of officer spawns in rat belts already,,, no reason what so ever they should be there.
2) Make mining interactive, all of it
3) Change missions for god sakes and make them dynamic
4) Stop making alliances able to dominate the map - this just does not make any business sense for your company. If the game cannot allow a group of new players to gain sov in one system and keep it within 1 year then there is no game and you wont get many subscribers. I mean really this is a no brainer at all. AND STOP LINKING IT TO ALLIANCES ALREADY.
5) Stop making gank mobiles that only rich players can afford.
6) IDENTIFY YOUR CUSTOMERS THAT PAY, create the game play they want not looking after a bunch of people who already dont pay.
7) Get rid of the failure that is T2 BPOs.

You're running a business, your business relies on your customers having the knowledge that there is a set of rules that keep everything on a level playing field, no matter how harsh - if you cant be bothered to look after your own business then watch it be taken away from you.

Goparu Prdc3r
Caldari
SILICON LOTUS
Posted - 2010.12.12 16:45:00 - [303]
 

CCP Dr.EyjoG can you tell us, if you actually know ( I bet you do), how much money is being dumped into eve's economy through bots? 5%, 10%, 20%??

How much more value would my sadly ratted/mined/plexed/PI'd isk have?

ugh



Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:10:00 - [304]
 

Edited by: Dmoney3788 on 12/12/2010 17:11:23
Originally by: Jaqel Broadside

4) Stop making alliances able to dominate the map - this just does not make any business sense for your company. If the game cannot allow a group of new players to gain sov in one system and keep it within 1 year then there is no game and you wont get many subscribers. I mean really this is a no brainer at all. AND STOP LINKING IT TO ALLIANCES ALREADY.


This made my day. So more or less you want the riches of 0.0 but don't have the manpower to claim a system. Guess what? There is no game mechanic that can prevent a larger corp/alliance from annihilating a smaller one that is fair and balanced.

waferzankko
The Maverick Navy
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:41:00 - [305]
 

thet took our jobs!

Dr Nefarius
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:50:00 - [306]
 

I fully support this whining. CCP please work to get rid of all macros and not only those in RMT.


Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:52:00 - [307]
 

Edited by: Cyaxares II on 12/12/2010 17:56:20
Originally by: Jaqel Broadside
5) Stop making gank mobiles that only rich players can afford.

wow, you're lecturing about business sense but seem to be a bit lacking in that regard yourself...

example:

have a superpwnmobile for old players.
-> old players remain motivated because they have a goal to aim for and can dominate the battlefield
-> newer players will sell PLEX to keep up with the older players thus financing the older players' subscription.
(new players who don't like to spend effort or RL cash to get the ISK advantage can tag along with the older players)
-> more paying subscribers

make older players leave because there is no "end-game" content
-> less players, newer players have no real reasons to sell PLEX because everything is easily attainable - neither do they have the perspective that one day they too will play this game for free if they just stick with it for another few months
-> fail.

now you're going to claim that all the new players quit the game because it is so unfair - but in my experience the "instant gratification" type of players has relatively little worries to spend some RL cash in order to get more ISK or a better character.

EVE's business model is a pyramid scheme.

You keep older players as active accounts even if they aren't that interested in the game anymore by allowing them to play for free.
The presence of these older players and the pvp aspect of EVE "motivates" younger player to pay the subscription fees of these older players thus perpetuating the circle.

Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.12 22:13:00 - [308]
 

Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Originally by: Per Bastet
Why not Implement a Name and Shame for Botters that are Caught? Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them.

We have the Capability to Self Police to a Good extent - But we need to know who to nail to the wall.


Great that you have the ability to self police all of EvE: Most botters can be found in the following sovereignity holding alliances: Please gank them on a consistent enough basis:

- IT alliance
- Goonswarm Alliance
- Triple A

There you go.

Even allies like CVA have them. Mostly ice-bots there. Talked to a high rank guy from CVA once and he told me "if you have ISK probs start some mining bots like I do".
So I do any bet ANY ally uses them!

And about the "CCP stop intruducing expinve ships".
I'm sorry to say this BUT if CCP realy start a fight against all the bots you will see ore/ice price go up by double or even trippel. This will lead to much more expensive NORMAL T1 ships too.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.12 22:40:00 - [309]
 

Originally by: Jojo Jackson
Even allies like CVA have them. Mostly ice-bots there. Talked to a high rank guy from CVA once and he told me "if you have ISK probs start some mining bots like I do".
So I do any bet ANY ally uses them!

Almost any major alliance has members that run bots.

Almost any major alliance does de-facto practice a "blues don't report blues" policy.

However, not every major alliance does knowingly rent space to whole botting corps (without any legit members that turn up to CTAs, ...) in order to tax them (bounties/reprocessing).

There is (imo) a huge difference between individual members running bots (and corp/alliance officials following a "don't ask, don't tell" policy) and the alliance itself being engaged in botting or RMT activities.

Even if the CEO of the executor corp is known to run a few bots on the side to augment his personal income that's imo less of an issue than using said bots as alliance property to fill the alliance warchest.

Sillypants McAwesome
Posted - 2010.12.12 22:41:00 - [310]
 

Edited by: Sillypants McAwesome on 12/12/2010 22:41:23
You know guys, I think something fishy is happening in here:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/WIW-X8

eddie valvetino
Caldari
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.12.12 22:54:00 - [311]
 

was nearly a good copy of V for vendetta

nearly

Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:56:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Cyaxares II

Almost any major alliance has members that run bots.



And that's part of the problem why a new ally/corp has big trubble getting first steps into 0.0.

Most of the old 0.0 allys run this bots for a LOOOONG time and have so much ISK, that they can throw cap after cap into fights. If you want to compet you NEED to run bots too or you wont have the ISK to counter throw caps.

Even wors it is with super caps.
There is no way except month of regular mining ops (we all know how much PvP 0.0 junkys "love" mining) or run mining-bot-ops.

And again we all know: PvP tend to do anything to avoid PvE stuff ;).

Arx Eladios
THE PAROXYSM
Dark Solar Empire
Posted - 2010.12.13 02:04:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 12/12/2010 13:17:29
Originally by: Arx Eladios

These bots are very advanced too. They no longer work by grabbing the screen, but accessing the internal application calls via Windows API. In simple terms it hacks the client. Thus removing local will not do anything since the bot software will still pick-up the server message that someone entered and will safe up/cloak/log off. This tempering is not new: Every competitive online game gets hacked like that.

Why would the server send such a message to the client if the client didn't need to know at that point. I can't see any reason for sending that information other then so the client knows to update the local with the information. If no local then no reason to send that information and so no advance warning for the bot.

There is more information needed than whether to add the person to local. For example the gate needs to light up, their ship must appear on directional scanner and so on. Sure you could write extra code that says "If this person is not on the gate, don't bother sending message" but this just doesn't scale. Imagine 800 people fleet sitting on the gate and the server having to check the location of each. Like it or not, but every client needs to know whether someone enters the system regardless how it uses this information.

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Since that article was written by a obvious bot enthusiast it seems to me more like a slight of hand trick to get people off the idea that local removal would hurt bots. Which it most certainly would (unless theres a reason the server would send that information to the client which I doubt)

Perhaps. Just that his explanation makes sense. Modification of client/memory overwrite programs are so common out there (Aimbots, etc) that it would be odd that same wasn't created for EVE. And interception/deciphering information coming in from the server packets is trivial.

Besides changing local behaviour is too much of a game-changing idea. It is being used so extensively in 0.0 gameplay that any change will have a massive impact, therefore it is simply off the table. It has been talked about for as long as EVE existed and nothing came out of it.

Aelius
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2010.12.13 02:09:00 - [314]
 

Edited by: Aelius on 13/12/2010 02:33:42


"BOTS IN MY EVE?! IMPOSSIBLE" says CCP...

"We only have RMT... You can bot unless u sell the isk for real cash" -Source CCP


ALL BOTS ARE BAD NOT ONLY RMT


We ganked a "few" today and filed a petition... and also put them all in watch list... to see if CCP bans them.... then i will have my proof if CCP really cares.

see the carnage here http://mnee.eve-kill.net

Merth Righter
Posted - 2010.12.13 03:08:00 - [315]
 

I have a suggestion, but it will require more GMs...

I used to play this awe-full mmo called fairyland, F2P but P2W.
Playing without paying meant loads of grinding, something I eventually got fed up with. Not really caring at that time I wrote a simple script to level some skills for me. It just made me run up and down and automated combat, not smart, djsut repeated the same sequence over and over.
Being the careless idiot I was I left the script running somewhere where players occasionally came trough.

I was reported,

Almost immediately I was picked up by a GM and put in some kind of prison, He started talking to me, obviously I didn't respond, I was watching TV.
When the GM establish I was just an automatic program he just banned me obviously.

Something like this should be implemented in EVE as well.

As soon as someone is reported for botting a GM should open a conversation with the player, if the GM establishes that there is nobody behind the account but the character is still ratting activly, or mining and putting stuff in cans, A temp-ban should follow.

If the offence is repeated a perma-ban.

Obviously when someone is reported who is not a bot he can just reply, tell the GM he's really there etc.
To prevent people from abusing this function the report function for the player (for botting) will be disable for the next hour or so, and if people the reported player is in PVP combat the GM should not be able to open a conversation, as to not let people abuse this to gank easier ;)

that was my 0.02ISK. Rolling Eyes

ILikeMarkets
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:02:00 - [316]
 

Originally by: Merth Righter
I have a suggestion, but it will require more GMs...

I used to play this awe-full mmo called fairyland, F2P but P2W.
Playing without paying meant loads of grinding, something I eventually got fed up with. Not really caring at that time I wrote a simple script to level some skills for me. It just made me run up and down and automated combat, not smart, djsut repeated the same sequence over and over.
Being the careless idiot I was I left the script running somewhere where players occasionally came trough.

I was reported,

Almost immediately I was picked up by a GM and put in some kind of prison, He started talking to me, obviously I didn't respond, I was watching TV.
When the GM establish I was just an automatic program he just banned me obviously.

Something like this should be implemented in EVE as well.

As soon as someone is reported for botting a GM should open a conversation with the player, if the GM establishes that there is nobody behind the account but the character is still ratting activly, or mining and putting stuff in cans, A temp-ban should follow.

If the offence is repeated a perma-ban.

Obviously when someone is reported who is not a bot he can just reply, tell the GM he's really there etc.
To prevent people from abusing this function the report function for the player (for botting) will be disable for the next hour or so, and if people the reported player is in PVP combat the GM should not be able to open a conversation, as to not let people abuse this to gank easier ;)

that was my 0.02ISK. Rolling Eyes



That's a difficult thing to work with. A) they can't just do it based on whether you respond to a conversation or not. I don't pay any attention to my chat window at most times and would be highly ticked if I got banned just for not saying hello back to someone. B) Pulling a player out and putting them elsewhere could have detrimental effects of the GM was mistaken and it really was a player. The player could end up losing drones, being put back in dangerous positions, etc. And of course, this returns to the whole not being punished for not watching chat. If you miss the chat window pop up, hello teleport and bye bye drones.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:14:00 - [317]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 13/12/2010 04:19:33
Originally by: Arx Eladios
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 12/12/2010 13:17:29
Originally by: Arx Eladios

These bots are very advanced too. They no longer work by grabbing the screen, but accessing the internal application calls via Windows API. In simple terms it hacks the client. Thus removing local will not do anything since the bot software will still pick-up the server message that someone entered and will safe up/cloak/log off. This tempering is not new: Every competitive online game gets hacked like that.

Why would the server send such a message to the client if the client didn't need to know at that point. I can't see any reason for sending that information other then so the client knows to update the local with the information. If no local then no reason to send that information and so no advance warning for the bot.

There is more information needed than whether to add the person to local. For example the gate needs to light up, their ship must appear on directional scanner and so on. Sure you could write extra code that says "If this person is not on the gate, don't bother sending message" but this just doesn't scale. Imagine 800 people fleet sitting on the gate and the server having to check the location of each. Like it or not, but every client needs to know whether someone enters the system regardless how it uses this information.

I doubt they would have coded it like this.

Everything probably happens on the server with only required information sent to a client if that client is in range.

Why would a server send a gate message to your client if your nowhere near a gate. It probably works something like this. A person activates the gate on their client, server transfers them to the new system. The server then checks for pilots on grid or in range of the gate. The server then sends a message to each client telling it to activate the gate graphic and sounds etc.

Same for scanners. Clicking scan most probably sends a query to the server saying "is there anything x distance from my coordinates on the server. The server then probably checks and then sends back any data on objects that it finds on the server which matches your coordinates + range of the scan.

I find it unlikely that the server would waste resources updating your client with information that is not pertinent to the client at that point in time.


Originally by: Arx Eladios

Besides changing local behaviour is too much of a game-changing idea. It is being used so extensively in 0.0 gameplay that any change will have a massive impact, therefore it is simply off the table. It has been talked about for as long as EVE existed and nothing came out of it.

There are quite a few examples of CCP implementing game changing ideas. In fact I think if anyone is famous for implementing game changing ideas its CCP.

I don't think you can correctly say its "off the table'. I think wormhole no local shows us that it can and does work quite well and that players can easily adapt to a no local environment.

Machete Visor
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:46:00 - [318]
 

Originally by: Sillypants McAwesome
Edited by: Sillypants McAwesome on 12/12/2010 22:41:23
You know guys, I think something fishy is happening in here:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/WIW-X8


wow... 18,000 rats in 48hrs.
and look at those spikes.

looks like someone fills up on loot every 45 min or so and has to run abck to the station.

northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
Terran United Federation
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:53:00 - [319]
 

Originally by: HyperZerg
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.


We care about Macros and Bots, not RMT ... I starting to belive you don't want to get this one ...

RMT destroys CCP
Bots/Macros destroy the game.

Let's fix both !



RMT is the big reason why Bots are here in the first place. Think before posting idiot ugh

betty drunkenlord
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:30:00 - [320]
 

Originally by: Jojo Jackson
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Originally by: Per Bastet
Why not Implement a Name and Shame for Botters that are Caught? Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them.

We have the Capability to Self Police to a Good extent - But we need to know who to nail to the wall.


Great that you have the ability to self police all of EvE: Most botters can be found in the following sovereignity holding alliances: Please gank them on a consistent enough basis:

- IT alliance
- Goonswarm Alliance
- Triple A

There you go.

Even allies like CVA have them. Mostly ice-bots there. Talked to a high rank guy from CVA once and he told me "if you have ISK probs start some mining bots like I do".
So I do any bet ANY ally uses them!

And about the "CCP stop intruducing expinve ships".
I'm sorry to say this BUT if CCP realy start a fight against all the bots you will see ore/ice price go up by double or even trippel. This will lead to much more expensive NORMAL T1 ships too.


So what if mineral/ice prices go through the roof? so what if all ships become more costly? less is more in the eve, people will just fly smaller ships which are hell more fun to pvp in. so what if new paradigm (without all types of bots) breakes largest alliances? the political landscape will become much more interesting and you'll fix the lag in the same time (less big alliances - less big fleet fights). Then mining profession will become more profitable again.

It's time to come to your roots EVE, it's finally the time to nerf big alliances comfy living.

Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2010.12.13 08:43:00 - [321]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.


yeah specialy when you report 1. and you get thanks well look in to it. and the macro keeps doing it untill the end of time..

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.12.13 10:57:00 - [322]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler

We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.



I have got a tiny idea, a modification of the captcha for Travian detailed above *for miners*


1) IF player ship is not in station / POS and has >= 1 mining / harvesting module

2) EVERY random time between 1 minute and 1 hour

3) SHOW transparent (like PI) window in random position with captcha including a simple math operation (so OCR has an harder time). This SHOW captcha has a status, so it'll pop up again on re-log (to avoid circumventing it).

4) IF no reply is made within 5 minutes then mining yield drops to 1% of its usual value (so bots don't "see" anything obvious to counter). Docking will restore yield to full but the captcha will show up at station undock.



For combat ships I am sure it's possible to find a similar arrangement:

1) IF player ship has any offensive mod or T2 drones > small drones and not in station / POS

2) IF player ship is in belt grid or mission / deadspace / pocket

3) Same as above 3)

4) IF no reply is made within 5 minutes then the next bounty tick will be reduced to 1% from captcha showing up onwards. Not removed so bots have an harder time detecting if a captcha showed up or not.


Quote:

And that's part of the problem why a new ally/corp has big trubble getting first steps into 0.0.

Most of the old 0.0 allys run this bots for a LOOOONG time and have so much ISK, that they can throw cap after cap into fights. If you want to compet you NEED to run bots too or you wont have the ISK to counter throw caps.



It's even worse than that.
If you are a real corp willing to humbly rent some 0.0 space they demand you so much money you can't afford it, because they assume and know you are botting and therefore asking 1B a month is "fair game" for keeping their mouths shut and ask no questions.

Alaizabel Bronstein
Posted - 2010.12.13 12:56:00 - [323]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If you are a real corp willing to humbly rent some 0.0 space they demand you so much money you can't afford it, because they assume and know you are botting and therefore asking 1B a month is "fair game" for keeping their mouths shut and ask no questions.

IT's standard renting rate is 10b/month for a single system (you can negotiate discounts for additional systems).

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.13 13:06:00 - [324]
 

Originally by: Alaizabel Bronstein
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If you are a real corp willing to humbly rent some 0.0 space they demand you so much money you can't afford it, because they assume and know you are botting and therefore asking 1B a month is "fair game" for keeping their mouths shut and ask no questions.

IT's standard renting rate is 10b/month for a single system (you can negotiate discounts for additional systems).


Which frankly isn't unreasonable assuming that the renter corp has 10 members. 1bill each/month = 30 mill a day.

Real 0.0 players who PvE and PvP for a few hours a week make way way more than that a day. 250-400mill a day was normal in the last alliance I was in, and from what I saw the core corps weren't macroing. Do note that the "250-400mill" included faction mods etc which would need to be sold, I'm not talking just bounty income.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.13 13:10:00 - [325]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 13/12/2010 13:11:47
Computers are extremely good at puzzles and math. Anything that you can think of that's sent to the client like a math quiz will be picked up and solved much faster by the bot then it would by the human.

Computers are rather stupid at holistic thinking. Humans are rather good at it.

Creating a situation where a bot is required to feel its way through an encounter based on prior experience and learning will be harder to crack for the bot makers then what we currently have which is npc's doing identical and predictable things which are easily handled.



betty drunkenlord
Posted - 2010.12.13 16:20:00 - [326]
 

Originally by: Alaizabel Bronstein
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If you are a real corp willing to humbly rent some 0.0 space they demand you so much money you can't afford it, because they assume and know you are botting and therefore asking 1B a month is "fair game" for keeping their mouths shut and ask no questions.

IT's standard renting rate is 10b/month for a single system (you can negotiate discounts for additional systems).


Isn't that the alliance leaders are main benefactors from ratting/mining bots apart from renters employing bots? It's not hard to assume the situation is perfect for them -> they collect very high rent allowing botting and also avoid risk of being caught (my renter is using bots? I could have never guessed...). This is probably why major alliance leaders will fight against doing something with bots because large share of their profits depends on... bots. It is one more aspect of a game that needs immediate balancing. If the botting was dealt with, leaders would have to focus more on wellbeing of its soldiers because they would actually be the source of income. No wonder why they are looking only for pvp players (because ratting thus all the earnings is done by bots and reserved to themselves).

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.12.13 16:33:00 - [327]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 13/12/2010 16:34:07
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.


Please, don't focus purely on the RMT angle and loose sight of the non-RMT bots.
Bots that exist to fund an actual player vs an RL business have all the same negative effects on the gaming and competitive environments as RMT bots & farmers.

Vespoi Filar
Posted - 2010.12.13 16:52:00 - [328]
 

I've reported botters many times. Months ago. They are still here.

nuff said

btw can anyone link me a good botting application?

Apparently CCP doesn't give a ****!

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.13 18:07:00 - [329]
 

the requested devblog has been posted.

(and I guess it's title describes the direction this thread is going to take Razz)

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.13 19:01:00 - [330]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

For combat ships I am sure it's possible to find a similar arrangement:



Yeah there is actually and given the weak devblog I think its worth considering.

Remove npc bounties from 0.0 ratting. There's no valid "in-game reason" for them to be paid.

0.0 has unique rewards in terms of materials and faction items. Bounties shouldn't exist - or they should be paid by the controlling sov entity.

Remember that npc bounties are the only way to generate significant quantities of NEW isk in-game. Time to look very hard at this I think.


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