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blankseplocked WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!
 
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Per Bastet
Amarr
B.O.O.M
Obsidian Mining Coalition
Posted - 2010.12.11 13:36:00 - [271]
 

Why not Implement a Name and Shame for Botters that are Caught? Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them.

We have the Capability to Self Police to a Good extent - But we need to know who to nail to the wall.

Vitamin B12
Posted - 2010.12.11 13:42:00 - [272]
 

CCP stop macro users!!

Miss President
Caldari
SOLARIS ASTERIUS
Posted - 2010.12.11 14:07:00 - [273]
 

Not enough Macro threads, but yeah CCP needs to create a full time task force to deal with bots and macros

Tom Fulleride
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.12.11 14:40:00 - [274]
 

Can the OP or a mod please change the title from "FEED" to "FED". thank you.

Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari
Elder Tribes
Posted - 2010.12.11 15:25:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Per Bastet
Why not Implement a Name and Shame for Botters that are Caught? Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them.

We have the Capability to Self Police to a Good extent - But we need to know who to nail to the wall.


Great that you have the ability to self police all of EvE: Most botters can be found in the following sovereignity holding alliances: Please gank them on a consistent enough basis:

- IT alliance
- Goonswarm Alliance
- Triple A

There you go.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.12.11 15:28:00 - [276]
 

instead of CCP investing tons of resources and time.

They should just license VAC. EVE is already distributed on Steam.

Meridian Siri
Posted - 2010.12.11 16:03:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Do you really want to 1/4 population ( yes that icludes big alliances macro fleets ) of the servers to dissapear . How will taht look for CCP.


Actually, yes. If that 1/4 of the population that you are talking about is macros. How it will look for CCP depends on how they handle the issue. They did a good enough PR job with Unholy Rage that some think it was simply PR; sell this one the same way.

Pesadel0
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2010.12.11 17:06:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.


Well i'am happy and waiting for the news :)

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.11 17:39:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Originally by: Per Bastet
Why not Implement a Name and Shame for Botters that are Caught? Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them.

We have the Capability to Self Police to a Good extent - But we need to know who to nail to the wall.


Great that you have the ability to self police all of EvE: Most botters can be found in the following sovereignity holding alliances: Please gank them on a consistent enough basis:

- IT alliance
- Goonswarm Alliance
- Triple A

There you go.


ALL OF 0.0!! Not just them, even the ones without space too

Kyzzie
Posted - 2010.12.11 19:34:00 - [280]
 

Interesting

Originally by: Per Bastet
...Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them....


Where do we find these Botters, Jita? High Sec, Null Sec, where.

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.12.11 21:14:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: Kyzzie
Interesting

Originally by: Per Bastet
...Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them....


Where do we find these Botters, Jita? High Sec, Null Sec, where.

Macro miners are almost exclusively in hisec.

Macro ratters are generally in nullsec, although I've seen some in quiet lowsec systems.

Professor Screweyes
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.11 22:26:00 - [282]
 

Quote:
We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.


LAWL... Fail. RMT fails to cut CCP in for a piece of the action so that's what you'll look at. I noticed that you excluded bot/botting from your statement. Tell us about the Bots. If you choose to do nothing, then bots must be good. Please link a good bot site for the other 3/4 of eve so we can all stop buying GTC's with real money.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.11 22:30:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Professor Screweyes
Please link a good bot site for the other 3/4 of eve so we can all stop buying GTC's with real money.

fail reasoning is fail.

(hint: "equilibrium" is the word you should meditate on)

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.12.11 22:48:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: Professor Screweyes
Quote:
We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.


LAWL... Fail. RMT fails to cut CCP in for a piece of the action so that's what you'll look at. I noticed that you excluded bot/botting from your statement. Tell us about the Bots. If you choose to do nothing, then bots must be good. Please link a good bot site for the other 3/4 of eve so we can all stop buying GTC's with real money.

You are aware that all GTC's come from someone who buys it with real money. Right? RIIGGGHT????

Professor Screweyes
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.11 22:49:00 - [285]
 

Quote:
fail reasoning is fail.

(hint: "equilibrium" is the word you should meditate on)






I'll meditate on "equilibrium."
You can meditate on "sarcasm"

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.11 23:31:00 - [286]
 

Edited by: Cyaxares II on 11/12/2010 23:34:39
Originally by: Professor Screweyes
Quote:
fail reasoning is fail.

(hint: "equilibrium" is the word you should meditate on)






I'll meditate on "equilibrium."
You can meditate on "sarcasm"

If everybody would run bots and was firmly commited to buying PLEX/GTCs with ISK only you would run into the problem that nobody would have any reasons/inclination to sell GTCs/PLEX for ISK.

That state would never exist because soon enough somebody would figure out that selling one GTC for over 9000 trillion ISK might be a good idea and your market would slowly revert back to normal.

I guess asking CCP to help you (even more) with botting was intended to be sarcastic - however, the "all" in "so we can all stop buying GTC's with real money" being blatantly, horrendously wrong (for the reasons mentioned above) is not changed by the context.

Arx Eladios
THE PAROXYSM
Dark Solar Empire
Posted - 2010.12.12 01:07:00 - [287]
 

The usage of macros is so widespread that it borders on ridiculous levels.

Particularly widespread are the ratting macros in 0.0 space. Virtually every space holding alliance got at least several people that run macros. To be fair, the rest of the alliance is never aware of this, so banning entire alliances is not appropriate.

These bots are very advanced too. They no longer work by grabbing the screen, but accessing the internal application calls via Windows API. In simple terms it hacks the client. Thus removing local will not do anything since the bot software will still pick-up the server message that someone entered and will safe up/cloak/log off. This tempering is not new: Every competitive online game gets hacked like that.

Possible solution is to use punkbuster-like application that scans local memory for use of such applications. There might be other solutions, but that is all that comes to mind.

Even if the person running the macro never uses it for RMT/GTC trade, it still is harmful to the EVE as a whole. For one it injects massive ISK amounts into the economy which eventually will result in inflation.

Another is that it makes any kind of competition unfair. Imagine if a corporation of macros was setup with all the income going to the alliance. Keep in mind that this corporation could be in a whole another alliance in some other part of the map, so never under threat if the keeper's space gets invaded. With that massive income that alliance can simply outclass/outnumber their opponents with no risk. For example if you got 50 billion coming in per week (Doable if you got like 30 macros working 23.5/7) imagine how many super-capitals you can buy with that. If you can handle the logistics of building/moving them (Admittedly not easy) you can outfit whole corporations with them. And if you lose them, it is no risk given the guaranteed income coming in. Thus the opponent's only choice is either give up or use macros themselves.

It is also unfair to the people that honestly play EVE. They would spend quite an amount of time, effort and sometimes risk raising ISK to afford their carrier while macro owner just relaxes with ISK rolling in. Knowing this you just feel like a sucker to use honest ways to earn your assets.

There is a very nice set of articles on this on the evenews24 site: http://www.evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview/

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2010.12.12 01:54:00 - [288]
 

I've always felt like a sucker actively ratting and doing invention after I saw a guy macroing 23/7 in two near -1 systems in Delve. I managed to kill him a few times by putting up bubbles at his undefended pos but he was always back the next day in a new ship.

Michal Fogel
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.12 02:05:00 - [289]
 

i wish i could find a good sauce for a bot :( im just 2 lazy after almost 4 years .

Quin Dar
Posted - 2010.12.12 06:54:00 - [290]
 

It's very easy to stop micro miners and other botters.
10 years old games have something against botters and only CCP do not want to do anything, cos then CCP will lost alot of micro miners subscriptions.

Only one thing need to do is prebuild in EVE program like - Punkbuster for Unreal tournament

Rasz Lin
Caldari
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
Posted - 2010.12.12 07:08:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: Arx Eladios

Even if the person running the macro never uses it for RMT/GTC trade, it still is harmful to the EVE as a whole.


EVE playerbase yes, CCP NO. More ISK means more buying power on PLEX market = more PLEX sold = more profit. More bots means more PLEX sold to fuel those bot accounts. CCP is ONLY concerned about RTM, but they leave bots alone.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.12.12 07:43:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Rasz Lin
Originally by: Arx Eladios

Even if the person running the macro never uses it for RMT/GTC trade, it still is harmful to the EVE as a whole.


EVE playerbase yes, CCP NO. More ISK means more buying power on PLEX market = more PLEX sold = more profit. More bots means more PLEX sold to fuel those bot accounts. CCP is ONLY concerned about RTM, but they leave bots alone.


That is not quite correct - you see, if people start really believing that CCP does not care about bots but only about RMT then people no longer have a reason to sell a PLEX as it would be cheaper just to buy your own bot and get the 20 bil / month instead of spending 30 bucks for 700 mil in the form of PLEX.

And ofc if rampant macroing gets out of hand most 'honest' players will just quit. In such competitive environment you do not have any reason to play if you see that only way to compete would be running bots of your own and you are not willing to run bots.

Trajan Ultor
Posted - 2010.12.12 07:47:00 - [293]
 

I don't think CCP cares about Bots. Many great 0.0 alliances would fall if Bots were outlawed.

Spineker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.12 07:48:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Trajan Ultor
I don't think CCP cares about Bots. Many great 0.0 alliances would fall if Bots were outlawed.


CCP gave 0.0 alliances BPO's no bots dont bother them at all with plex.

betty drunkenlord
Posted - 2010.12.12 12:00:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We’re currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.


CCP, fight the cause not effect!

First let's distinguish between cause and effect here. RMT is an effect. What is a cause? Stolen accounts - yes, corp frauds - yes, tech moons - to limited degree, but the true and biggest cause is a growing army of bots generating unlimited stream of isk each month. And it is your shortsighted view that let that go unpunished for a long time .

How could you not envisioned that botting activities turn out into mass RMT sooner or later? It's obvious. Let's assume it starts with a few players using macros to generate an income for them. Great. They don't RMT, they keep profits for themselves sooner or later gathering influence and power, grabbing some space, creating powerful 0.0 alliance. They gather more corps also using bots, fun is superb. But then even if they loose supercaps, sponsor mercs, play market games to destroy other alliances the isk stream is just growing faster than they could spend it. And since they have already broken botting rule and saw that ccp allows crime go unpunished it's just a matter of time when someone among them start organizing cash for isk activities. It's exactly the process described on various forums. Then it's simple to envision how the botters employing RMT could successfuly expand their customer base -> just don't let normal people earn cash to upkeep their accounts. How? Mercs for 0.0, mercs for empire, constant war between big blocks, cta all the time so to force maximum people in alliances to pay for game either by buying isk from ccp or rmters. \o/ more profit for ccp, more profit for RMTers, what could possibly go wrong? Well, in a short period it's a win-win situation both for botters (rmters) and ccp. What happens long term? Alliance leaders employing bots, mercs and earning more and more rl income from RMT just kill their cash cow which are ordinary soliders as they see that the game is rigged, they cannot win and enjoy the game as all the stars are aligned against them.

It's like with crime, when police let go away pickpocketers the problem grows until we see armed gangs robbing and killing people around. Then one step in the future crime corrupts police. Inversely, when police in NY introduced zero tolerancy taking care of small pickpocketers, the level of crime OVERALL decreased in the city. The police was so successful that other cities started to copy that solution.

Want to successfuly fight RMT? Want to increase real player base long term; not just playing the game of cat and mouse? Fight the cause, not just effect. Kill the bots, simple as that.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.12.12 12:27:00 - [296]
 

I would like to see more clever algorithms for detecting bots, if it's feasible. Granted the data amounts are massive and CCP propably does not have computing power to do that on their own. However once they figure out what to look for it might be possible to compress the logs of player activities somehow and then send them to player computers for further analysis using processing power currently unused by EVE client. I mean computers have many cores nowadays, but each EVE client tends to use only one of those most of the time. So the analyzis tool could be part of the official client.

Or do somekind of SETI@home kind of data analysis tool that players can install in their computers and that would be able to run in the background at low priority using idle processor power to hunt the bots for CCP. For example for a start looking if some action is too 'regular' should be able to nail the simplest bots that dont randomize their actions but just use previously saved script for actions. There should be some other more complex patterns one can track to flag the bots for more detailed investigation. To avoid data tampering same dataset would need to be analyzed by several different people ofc, same as it is done with SETI program.

betty drunkenlord
Posted - 2010.12.12 13:05:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
I would like to see more clever algorithms for detecting bots, if it's feasible. Granted the data amounts are massive and CCP propably does not have computing power to do that on their own. However once they figure out what to look for it might be possible to compress the logs of player activities somehow and then send them to player computers for further analysis using processing power currently unused by EVE client. I mean computers have many cores nowadays, but each EVE client tends to use only one of those most of the time. So the analyzis tool could be part of the official client.

Or do somekind of SETI@home kind of data analysis tool that players can install in their computers and that would be able to run in the background at low priority using idle processor power to hunt the bots for CCP. For example for a start looking if some action is too 'regular' should be able to nail the simplest bots that dont randomize their actions but just use previously saved script for actions. There should be some other more complex patterns one can track to flag the bots for more detailed investigation. To avoid data tampering same dataset would need to be analyzed by several different people ofc, same as it is done with SETI program.


yes, we need that. we need also clear communication campaign, that not only RMT is bad, but also all forms of botting are bad and are hurting player experience as was clearly explained in multiple threads. Sorry but I've got impression that right now CCP is acting like a selfish alliance leader caring only about its tech moons and rent(from botters) profit, rather than wellbeing of its soldiers (real players). Guess what happens next with the alliance?

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.12 13:15:00 - [298]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 12/12/2010 13:17:29
Originally by: Arx Eladios

These bots are very advanced too. They no longer work by grabbing the screen, but accessing the internal application calls via Windows API. In simple terms it hacks the client. Thus removing local will not do anything since the bot software will still pick-up the server message that someone entered and will safe up/cloak/log off. This tempering is not new: Every competitive online game gets hacked like that.

Why would the server send such a message to the client if the client didn't need to know at that point. I can't see any reason for sending that information other then so the client knows to update the local with the information. If no local then no reason to send that information and so no advance warning for the bot.

Since that article was written by a obvious bot enthusiast it seems to me more like a slight of hand trick to get people off the idea that local removal would hurt bots. Which it most certainly would (unless theres a reason the server would send that information to the client which I doubt)

Enarem Kador
Posted - 2010.12.12 13:19:00 - [299]
 

Stop throwing bones to people, CCP. We are not dogs. Fix the damn problem for good, properly.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.12 13:27:00 - [300]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 12/12/2010 13:29:06
Originally by: Enarem Kador
Stop throwing bones to people, CCP. We are not dogs. Fix the damn problem for good, properly.

Um yeah. Bots and macros are a scourge for all mmo's and they are not easily defeated or cured. They're like the aids virus, they adapt as fast as you can think of a cure. There is no simple fix, many have tried and most have failed miserably, all have failed to some extent.

If you found a failsafe way to remove all automation, they would still do it, but they'd be online farmers instead.


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