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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.12.05 15:36:00 - [1]
 

From the various Drakewhine threads, the following question emerges as a theme

Originally by: Ulstan

Why don't we see battleship fleets? Ah, now that's the *real* question.


So what's your opinion? Why do we not see many battleships - which should, in theory - be natural predators to battle cruisers. I'm not sure the question is a simple one, exactly, either.

So why do you think?

Quendishir
Caldari
The Immortal Dawn
Posted - 2010.12.05 15:45:00 - [2]
 

1.) Battleships require quite a few more skill points to fly effectively, where-as the Drake does not. Drakes require medium weapons, and battleships require large. Getting medium T2 weapons is a lot faster than T2 large.

2.) Battleships are large, slow, and cumbersome. It's difficult to sneak a battleship gang around an area; a battlecruiser gang has a better chance at stealth.

3.) Large ships means more chances of getting hot dropped. It's unlikely a carrier will be dropped on a group of 15 Drakes. A carrier, if it cane be fielded, will most likely be dropped on 15 battleships.

4.) Drakes (and other battlecruisers) cost a lot less than battleships.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.05 15:54:00 - [3]
 

The increased prevalence of capships.

Mona X
Caldari
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.12.05 15:59:00 - [4]
 

Battleship fleets were wiped out by aHACs, on which Drakes prey on. And Drakes can breed, like 3 times faster than Battleships or aHACs.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.05 16:33:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Lili Lu on 05/12/2010 18:50:19
BSs were, no not past tesnse yet, are being wiped out by AHACs partly due to on-grid warp mechanics being too easy and large gun tracking overall needing a slight buff (no signal that CCP is addressing either of these)

BSs are being wiped out by Supercap blobs with fighter-bombers hitting them too hard (appears to getting addressed) One wonders whether Supercap blobs will just spew clouds of fighters instead and still leave BSs as relic wrecks.

BSs (most of which are armor tanked) are being wiped out by Drakes due to shield logistic advantages in lag, heavy missile range advantage negating theoretical higher dps on turret BSs, the fact that the Drake is the only BC with a BS sized tank, and thus economics favor their use. (some of these things are being "looked at" by CCP and you can be sure some change will be made "soon", otherwise the game will continue to become more and more Drakes online).

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.12.05 16:49:00 - [6]
 

Main reasons are ease of gaining point for in grid warp (new probes for example) and to lesser extent bombers (that are more general antiblob tool). You still see battleships, just not the 'sniper' fleets of 150+ km engagement range (if you are closer than 150 they cant warp on top of you). Also under heavy lag missile delayed damage is no longer relevant, thats the reason for Drake popularity, and ofc the way shield logis work, but thats not central to the tactics in my opinion.

Fighters are mean, but fragile enough to be killed with relative ease and killing full wings of fighters sure ****es off the carrier/supercarrier pilots. Considerably more than losing few insured battleships does. Bombers work particularly well against fighters with mwd active btw. Without mwd on they can tank several bombs.

1600 RT
Posted - 2010.12.05 17:48:00 - [7]
 

-sadly sniper BS have a similar EHP/dps ratio of drake
-BS have much longer lange but this is no more much of an advantage since ppl realized how to use probe and warp in when distances are higher than 150km.
-a BS with T2 weapons require 2-3 times the SP needed to fly a drake.
-BCs are very easy to crosstrain for everyone since the BC skill is not race dependant.
-drake is MUCH cheaper than a BS to lse


for the lol a "sniper" tempest can push 430dps @ 78+72km with 75k EHP while a drake can push 410 dps at 84km (delayed) with 97K EHP


Leto Atraities
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.05 17:50:00 - [8]
 

just to hop off subject a little, what is the likelihood of a firewall cruise raven gang being able to effectively counter a drake gang? would it work out well? be nice to see something to deal with drake gangs other than just an opposing drake gang.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.05 17:55:00 - [9]
 

Its not really an opinion but a matter of recorded fact that the insurance nerf caused the number of BS fleets to decline rapidly.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.05 17:58:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Quendishir
1.) Battleships require quite a few more skill points to fly effectively, where-as the Drake does not. Drakes require medium weapons, and battleships require large. Getting medium T2 weapons is a lot faster than T2 large.

2.) Battleships are large, slow, and cumbersome. It's difficult to sneak a battleship gang around an area; a battlecruiser gang has a better chance at stealth.

3.) Large ships means more chances of getting hot dropped. It's unlikely a carrier will be dropped on a group of 15 Drakes. A carrier, if it cane be fielded, will most likely be dropped on 15 battleships.

4.) Drakes (and other battlecruisers) cost a lot less than battleships.


5.) FB's (apparently not anymore tho?)

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.05 18:01:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: DeadDuck on 05/12/2010 18:10:35
Edited by: DeadDuck on 05/12/2010 18:09:13
Originally by: Mona X
Battleship fleets were wiped out by aHACs, on which Drakes prey on. And Drakes can breed, like 3 times faster than Battleships or aHACs.

CVA BS fleet vs PL AHAC+TEC3 fleet

Rolling Eyes

It wasn't worst cause PL dropped a SC blob on top of the CVA fleet.

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.05 18:05:00 - [12]
 

I've been engaged in a lot of battles and let me say that BS fleets are alive and kicking. The fact is that if you know what you are doing BS fleets WILL beat any other kind of fleets you put against them (except the SC's blobs of course), with enough logistics and with a good fitting AHacs Fleets, Drake Fleets, Bombers, BC's what ever you want to put in.. will be beaten even if the BS are outnumbered.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.05 18:16:00 - [13]
 

I've always been a BS fan since I first got a Tempest in 2004. The problem as I see it is that BSes today are akin to cruisers pre Dreads: easy to kill by frigs and BSes and largely unpopular because of it. The only exceptions really were t2.


So now the old king is now just a middle son and BSes haven't been changed to address this (not counting faction).


Give them all 3 more slots and change the way advancing up to t2 guns works.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.05 18:35:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Leto Atraities
just to hop off subject a little, what is the likelihood of a firewall cruise raven gang being able to effectively counter a drake gang? would it work out well? be nice to see something to deal with drake gangs other than just an opposing drake gang.


Ok, think about it a little more. Firewall means you using smarties to try to kill missiles. What is a Raven shooting? Missiles. So . .

The firewall tactic worked very well in it's first try. Thereafter, counters started being employed, along with the fact that the tactic does not scale well, it also requires certain flight parameters of which I won't go into because I don't want to give those away. As I said, firewall BSs can work, but it is not an easy matter and has built in weaknesses. Regardless, all you have to do is look at INIT's killboard to see what they are flying now . . Drakes.ugh

1600 RT
Posted - 2010.12.05 18:35:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Leto Atraities
just to hop off subject a little, what is the likelihood of a firewall cruise raven gang being able to effectively counter a drake gang? would it work out well? be nice to see something to deal with drake gangs other than just an opposing drake gang.


try to ask in alliance how many people can fly a drake (or could fly it in leass than a week) and how many of them could fly a cruise raven and you get you answer.

personally im a minmatar pilot i have 7 million SP in missile because alot of minmatar ship make a good use of missiles and i also have BC5 to fly a max skilled drake would only take a couple of days to get caldari cruiser 3.
also many amarr pilots have skilled missiles for sacrilege (probably not T2 HML but it dont take alot of time to get the skill at lv4 and be effective)

as you can see is very easy to crosstrain for the drake and jump in the bandwagon of the FOTM much easier than skill for a cruise raven

Larton Dretta
Posted - 2010.12.05 18:52:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Larton Dretta on 05/12/2010 18:55:01
its cuz ab zealot gangs **** them, kk NERF ZEALOT PLZ CCP

HURRRRRRRRR...

edit

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.12.05 18:54:00 - [17]
 

Very simple, One word: Bombers.

Not only were bombs made pretty cheap with the two tweaks to the BPOs, but the skill requirements to use the ships were reduced thus opening them up to the unwashed masses.

The BS fleets were gone from the field long before the Drake/HAC swarms reared their ugly heads so they can not be blamed for the BS fleet's demise.

The capital blobs slowly formed as BS were removed as viable ships by the bombers .. sovereignty modules don't shoot themselves you know Very Happy

Hannibal Ord
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.12.05 19:25:00 - [18]
 

The Drake was the direct counter to the increasingly larger groups of Armour HAC's (Fist gangs) made popular in practice by PL. They have greater range, and more mobility, with the advantage of using damps etc to slow down guardian support for these gangs, and also retain their own mobile logistics with scimitars and basilisks.

Whilst the dps of drake gangs is not as high as Zealot armour gangs, like previously mentioned it has greater range and also consistant dps at that range due to the lack of tracking issues.

The counter to drake blobs is generally considered to be Battleships gangs. The drake having a massive signiture, allows BS weapons to track fairly efficiently against them. Battleships have heavier EHP than drakes and since they can track them with their weapons, and hit them at equal or larger ranges, they win out.

The issue with battleships is just an issue with mobility. They are more difficult to disengage from a fight, and capital ships can easily hot drop them without them having the option to run. They are a perfect counter to drake gangs, but they are easy to catch.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.12.05 20:35:00 - [19]
 

BS's lack mobility and require a whole hell of a lot more SP than BC and HAC blobs. They are also more expensive typically too. Their role is and always has been semi-static defense. They hold a gate, a station or some other strategic location. They are not roaming ships. Null sec fights have always been about mobility. So HAC's and shield tanked BC's have always been a favorite. The flavor changes some occasionally (vagabond swarms, AHAC, draketrain...), but mobility has always been the primary concern there unless shooting a structure. So this just isn't anything new tbh.

If you want to see regular BS fights you have to look to places where mobility isn't a major concern. FW is a good example. There are nearly nightly BS fleet fights between the amarr and minmatar militias. The reason this happens is the amarr militia is based in kourmonen, the minmatar in auga. And guess what? There is an auga/kourmonen gate. No points for guessing where that fight's going to happen.Laughing That's just one example, BS gangs can be found all over low sec as most groups in low sec operate in small defined areas. Mobility just isn't a major concern.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2010.12.05 20:47:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: King Rothgar
That's just one example, BS gangs can be found all over low sec as most groups in low sec operate in small defined areas. Mobility just isn't a major concern.


Its not just mobility, but also the fact that HG slaves are being used regularly which boost armor BS performance by a huge margin.

And sentry guns, in the absence of logistics (though thats kinda rare these days in lowsec) BCs just dont cut it in an even fight if you are also taking senry fire.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.12.05 21:17:00 - [21]
 

Slave sets aren't nearly as common as you'd think. The 2B isk price tag keeps the vast majority out of them, even in low sec where it is reasonably safe for implants. And of course, those implants work just as well on an armor tanked HAC or BC. I've got a harbinger with more tank than an unslaved armageddon and I didn't sacrifice much dps to do it. Laughing Sentry guns aren't that big of an issue for a small BC gang. They murder drones with brutal efficiency which can be a problem but the ships themselves should be fine.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2010.12.05 21:29:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: King Rothgar
Slave sets aren't nearly as common as you'd think. The 2B isk price tag keeps the vast majority out of them, even in low sec where it is reasonably safe for implants.


Well, not common in the general fw militia clone sure. The more organized permanent lowsec residents fielding BS fleets use them a lot though. 2B isnt really a lot of ISK by todays standards for a veteran player.

Yes, they are effective on armor BC hulls as well, but in these cases you could just as well field battleships since heavily plated trimarked BCs give up a lot of the primary BC advantages anyway.

Originally by: King Rothgar

Sentry guns aren't that big of an issue for a small BC gang. They murder drones with brutal efficiency which can be a problem but the ships themselves should be fine.


Depends on what 'small' means in terms of participants, and what odds you are willing to stack against you.

Kai Yuen
Posted - 2010.12.05 21:32:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Quendishir
1.) Battleships require quite a few more skill points to fly effectively, where-as the Drake does not. Drakes require medium weapons, and battleships require large. Getting medium T2 weapons is a lot faster than T2 large.

2.) Battleships are large, slow, and cumbersome. It's difficult to sneak a battleship gang around an area; a battlecruiser gang has a better chance at stealth.

3.) Large ships means more chances of getting hot dropped. It's unlikely a carrier will be dropped on a group of 15 Drakes. A carrier, if it cane be fielded, will most likely be dropped on 15 battleships.

4.) Drakes (and other battlecruisers) cost a lot less than battleships.


This pretty much sums it up. Battleships are slow and fat. They can't chase and they can't run. The only thing I would add is MOMs. MOMs pwn battleships, even with the new dmg tweak. Most MOMs carry normal fighters and even 20 heavy drones hurts like a *****, especially in the endless waves MOMs can field.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2010.12.05 23:21:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus

So what's your opinion? Why do we not see many battleships - which should, in theory - be natural predators to battle cruisers. I'm not sure the question is a simple one, exactly, either.


Err... you do see a lot of battleships fighting in the Drone regions. PL uses Abaddons to counter Drakes on a pretty much daily basis and even shifted over to shield BSes. And since alpha is basically the only thing that allows you to break through heavy (1-in-5 or higher ratio of logis) reps, everyone is making the transition to shield BSes using 1400s as standard in fleets.

Ulstan
Posted - 2010.12.05 23:31:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 05/12/2010 23:35:25
Originally by: Quendishir
1.) Battleships require quite a few more skill points to fly effectively, where-as the Drake does not. Drakes require medium weapons, and battleships require large. Getting medium T2 weapons is a lot faster than T2 large.


This is really only true of gun battleships. Tech 2 cruise missiles and torps are easy to train for.

Cruise ravens would counter drakes, if it comes to that. But cruise ravens are not particularly powerful and when other BS can counter drakes and be more effective, they are preferred.

But it's not particularly hard to skill into BS that will beat drake. Everyone can fly ravens anyway thanks to it being a popular pve boat.

The BS being big and slow, where speed counts for so much, is a big mark against them. The ridiculous proliferation and power of capitals is another.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.05 23:54:00 - [26]
 

The BS you are looking for has died with QR.

This is the opinion form somebody that flies solo/small gang BS every day.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2010.12.06 01:46:00 - [27]
 

Tactics are introduced. Tactics are adapted to. Tactics change. It's alot better then "it has to survive two doomsdays!"

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.12.06 02:47:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: King Rothgar
Slave sets aren't nearly as common as you'd think. The 2B isk price tag keeps the vast majority out of them, even in low sec where it is reasonably safe for implants.


Well, not common in the general fw militia clone sure. The more organized permanent lowsec residents fielding BS fleets use them a lot though. 2B isnt really a lot of ISK by todays standards for a veteran player.

Yes, they are effective on armor BC hulls as well, but in these cases you could just as well field battleships since heavily plated trimarked BCs give up a lot of the primary BC advantages anyway.

Originally by: King Rothgar

Sentry guns aren't that big of an issue for a small BC gang. They murder drones with brutal efficiency which can be a problem but the ships themselves should be fine.


Depends on what 'small' means in terms of participants, and what odds you are willing to stack against you.


Among the veterans (guys playing 2+ years) they are somewhat common. But if you ever take a look around low sec, that's a terribly small minority. The player base as a whole is about 6 month to 2 years old. So really only the top guys in any region are going to have them. Sometimes they are concentrated in pirate corps but even within long standing pirate corps, it's rare to have more than 50% of the guys with them. In the general amarr militia I doubt it's more than 5%.

As for small gang, yeah, that's a little vague. I meant small as in 4-5 BC's. It does matter, mostly due to drone concerns but in the grand scheme of things I don't view sentry aggro as that big of a deal as long as it's shared. That said if by small you mean 2 BC's then yeah, it's going to suck.

In regards to plating and trimarking BC's, the BC's main advantages are tracking, scan resolution, speed and agility. Plating and trimarking does cut into the speed and agility part. However that opens your midslots for sebo's and webs boosting the other two advantages. You can also do the opposite and go with a nano shield tank, this increases speed, agility and damage at the expense of scan resolution, EW and tank. It's all a balancing act. Both methods are useful in different situations. It's why I always keep a nano-cane and a plated harbinger/hurricane handy.

Kai Yuen
Posted - 2010.12.06 03:03:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Ulstan

This is really only true of gun battleships. Tech 2 cruise missiles and torps are easy to train for.

Cruise ravens would counter drakes, if it comes to that. But cruise ravens are not particularly powerful and when other BS can counter drakes and be more effective, they are preferred.



This would be true if Ravens were good. Torps have exceedingly short range. Not quite blaster short, but pretty damn short. Cruise missiles have low DPS, by battleship standards, and an obnoxious flight time. Not only that, but WHO USES SHIELD BSs? Seriously now, how many shield BS fleets do you see? Answer: you don't. BS is all about armor. Abaddon, Mega, Apoc, Geddon, Phoon, Tempest or go home.

Originally by: Ulstan

But it's not particularly hard to skill into BS that will beat drake. Everyone can fly ravens anyway thanks to it being a popular pve boat.



Trust me, I WISH the Raven was good. I'd fly it everyday.

Originally by: Ulstan

The BS being big and slow, where speed counts for so much, is a big mark against them. The ridiculous proliferation and power of capitals is another.


The power of capitals is 90% the power of the super carrier. Super carriers are a "battleship go bye bye" kind of ship, even with the new FB damage. Given that 90% of all SCs are Nyx's and can easily carry normal fighters AND FBs, that damage nerf only forced them to recall drones and deploy new ones. I don't see that changing the BS dynamic. Also, speed is the ultimate equalizer and it's where battleships suck. Battleships as a whole need a buff.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.12.06 13:17:00 - [30]
 

Supercarriers can be countered in fleets with adaption of tackiks. For example the 'firewall' composition could be used against them quite easily. Fighters and fighterbombers are mean, but losing em by the dozen greatly irritates pilots fielding them. All you need is support wing with proper overview settings and if they are any good they will pop them 5 per volley (one for each squad).

That out of way - I personally dont like superscapitals and believe that EVE would be better place without titans and supercarriers/moms. Titans are used just like mobile jump bridges and supercarriers (with increasing number of them in the fleets) are making dreads kinda pointless. At least supercarriers cant shoot POS towers yet. Well other than Sentry drones ofc, but those are not that good at it.

Overall though I dont buy the mantra that battleships fleets are not used bcos of supercarriers. If that would be the case we would see on a daily basis 100 carrier drops to 'decide a battle' - it takes the resources of roughly 4 supercarriers to field a 100 carrier blob. The 100 carrier blob would be a lot tougher to take out than handful of supercarriers. Ok I have seen up to 15 or SC's dropped on field against the fleet on my side. But even that is not that scary - all you need is to kill their fighters/fighterbombers. Drakes would be actually good at it btw ;)


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