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blankseplocked [Proposal] Every Race Needs a 'Rifter' and also a 'Thrasher'
 
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Toterra
The Rifters
Posted - 2010.12.03 21:48:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Toterra on 04/12/2010 02:47:23
Note: This is part one of my 5 Things to improve the new player experience post on my blog.

The Rifter and the Thrasher are pretty much the perfect T1 frigate and destroyer for new players. Fast, easy to fly, easy to fit, decent DPS, decent tank, not too expensive, low skill requirements, what is not to like? The choice of being a Minmattar character meant that I could start having fun early on. Unfortunately none of the other races has a Top-Tier frigate or destroyer comes even close. This can be very frustrating for new players and leads a lot of them to give up playing. Lets look at them and figure out what could be changed to give players who are not Matari something to play with in the first month.

Amarr Punisher
The simple problem with the Punisher is that it lacks the midslots to actually tackle anything. I get it that Amarr ships are supposed to be armour tanked and slow, but combining that with having to choose between fitting either a propulsion mod or a webifier is not going to work. Move a low slot to a mid slot.

Amarr Coercer
If a Punisher is bad with two midslots, the Coercer is useless with only one. Again move one low-slot to a mid to give it at least a chance.

Caldari Merlin/Gallente Tristan
Split weapon layouts = bad. This is doubly true for new players as it is for experienced player. A new player climbing into one of these ships is going to quickly realize that they need to train a whole lot more to be proficient at both hybrids and missiles. This should be fixed. Give both ships a 3/3 turret/launcher hard-point configuration which ups the DPS a bit but more importantly gives more fitting options for low SP characters.

Gallente Catalyst
Is this ship is designed to get up nice and close to an enemy and pound on them with unholy DPS? Not really, it is too slow to get in range to take advantage of its tracking bonus, has a useless falloff bonus, and no damage bonus. What exactly is this ship supposed to do? Swapping the falloff bonus for a 5% per level damage bonus would be a start.

Caldari Cormorant
This ship really can fill one role, long range sniper with negligible DPS. In a pack of 30 this is useful, otherwise it is just pointless. I say return this ship to it's Caldari roots and give it 7 missile slots and the appropriate bonuses. This makes sense considering that new Caldari players are likely to be working on their missile skills. With the rocket buff this might actually work as a awesome platform.

Magnus Orin
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.03 21:52:00 - [2]
 

Sure, wish granted.

With a snap of my fingers, every race can now train Minmatar Frigate IV

Toterra
The Rifters
Posted - 2010.12.03 21:55:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Magnus Orin
Sure, wish granted.

With a snap of my fingers, every race can now train Minmatar Frigate IV


True... for experienced players. I am much more concerned with new players < 1 week old. It is kind of silly to say to a 2 day old character who is training Caldari to stop training Caldari and go and train Minmatar instead.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:22:00 - [4]
 

Keep in mind that one of the reasons the Thrasher and the Rifter are so good is because all the other frigates and destroyers are weaker.

I'm in support of the idea of a constant need for balance in general and frigates and cruisers specifically, but I can't really support these specifics because.. well, I'd rather trust a balance team.

Anna Lifera
6....
HAWK Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:22:00 - [5]
 

new players aren't gonna be concerned with which frigate will be the absolute "best" or "perfect" to train for in the first place. because by the time they get to that point, chances r, they already took 1-2 days to train it anyway.

Helicon1
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:49:00 - [6]
 

posting in a GUYS MY BLOG thread.

Anyway, you're approaching the issue from the wrong direction since what the T1 frigate range needs is not a group of rifter clones but for the rifter to be bought back in line with the other racial 'combat' frigates since in its current form it obsoletes every other option .

Alias 6322A
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:51:00 - [7]
 

I don't know about your suggested fixes but there are quite a few destroyer threads floating around.
I will say that a Cormorant that uses missiles instead sounds intriguing.

I don't see problems with the Punisher since, as a t1 frigate, it makes sense that it has basic problems like all frigates. Rifters are not invincible. I DO however agree that the mixed setup on the 'primary' t1 frigates for combat, the Merlin and Tristan, need to be made to be strictly one type of weapon. I would make the Merlin a 3 turret ship (like the others) and leave the Kestrel as your missile frigate (like the breacher and other 'alternative' frigates). Tristan needs to be made strictly turrets since that's what Gallente ONLY use on the vast majority of their ships (drones aside of course).

Got me on what to do on dessies, but someone really ought to consolidate all the threads. Maybe their number will tip CCP off to start working on it?

Toterra
The Rifters
Posted - 2010.12.03 23:06:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Helicon1

Anyway, you're approaching the issue from the wrong direction since what the T1 frigate range needs is not a group of rifter clones but for the rifter to be bought back in line with the other racial 'combat' frigates since in its current form it obsoletes every other option .

I understand the 'nerf something that is too good rather than buff things to match' concept. The issue here is new players. New Minmatar players get to have fun with a Rifter and then a Thrasher while other races just don't have any remotely as good options. Making sure that Minmatar players shouldn't have any fun as well is not as good game design as allowing all races to have a couple of fun ships to fly early on.

Crazy KSK
Posted - 2010.12.04 01:43:00 - [9]
 

I gotta agree with this at the point of buffing frigs in general and removing the tier systems i.e. effectively buffing all frigs to about the same level
but there has been one mistake made the tristan is not the tier 6 gallentean frigate its the incursus (the tier 6 frigs of all races are those that their assault ships are based on)

also blasters railguns and the ships that use them need some work anyway so yeah

Toterra
The Rifters
Posted - 2010.12.04 04:43:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Crazy KSK
I gotta agree with this at the point of buffing frigs in general and removing the tier systems i.e. effectively buffing all frigs to about the same level
but there has been one mistake made the tristan is not the tier 6 gallentean frigate its the incursus (the tier 6 frigs of all races are those that their assault ships are based on)

also blasters railguns and the ships that use them need some work anyway so yeah

I fixed the comment on the tier... what I mean is the top-tier frigate. The Tristan has one more high and low slot plus more EHP, Powergrid and CPU than the Incursis. Annoyingly if they made the Incursis the top-tier ship and the Tristan the step below (like the Rifter being the top and the breecher being second) it would be awesome. Effectively that is what I am trying to accomplish by changing it to a 3/3 layout.

Crazy KSK
Posted - 2010.12.04 06:02:00 - [11]
 

fine with that as I said I think frigs should get a little more importance than they have now buffing them sure will add to that

Helicon1
Posted - 2010.12.04 11:26:00 - [12]
 

Really the entire frigate range - T1, faction, and T2 - need a fundamental revision from the ground up since there's essentially no reason to ever undock in maybe 75% of the available shiptypes.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.12.04 22:54:00 - [13]
 

Really just need to decrease the speed variation between the frigates. Rifter is THE rifter because it has a lot more speed than the other frigates. The Rifter has 23% more base speed than the Punisher and the Punisher has 16% more EHP. For frigates, honestly, the differences in speed should be tighter and the differences in tank bigger (as speed is king for those ships).

Punisher has two midslots. Really don't see why it would need another midslot. MWD + point. Coercer, on the other hand, you have a point (or not on that ships... get it?).

Frigate disparity does need to be addressed.

Corina Jarr
Posted - 2010.12.04 23:11:00 - [14]
 

One, you go t it wrong, the Tristan is not the same as the Rifter (Rifter become AF, while Tristan becomes SB). You should be thinking of the Imicus. Which has 3 turrets.

Two, the Punisher is fine. There is no need to chose.

Three, not everyone wants a cookie cutter experience. If they want the cookie cutter, then can cross train to get it.

Four, the Coercer is not useless. Maybe less useful in PvP than the Thrasher, but not useless. Only a fool would think of a possible enemy ship as useless.

Five, split weapon layout is how the Caldari are for the most part. You change that and you go against the IU.

Six, ok you are right on the Cat, she is slow for a blasterboat.

Seven, I would love the Cormie to have 7 missile slots. Like a mini Drake.

Shiho Weitong
Caldari
Koa Mai Hoku
Posted - 2010.12.04 23:28:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Corina Jarr

Seven, I would love the Cormie to have 7 missile slots. Like a mini Drake.


/drools

hjgjgfgfgsj
Posted - 2010.12.05 01:58:00 - [16]
 

Agreed some ships need a boost.

However there is nothing at all wrong with the punisher, it's a sweet ship.

Bobbeh
Minmatar
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:58:00 - [17]
 

While we are at it give every race a Zealot, and a guardian and a scimitar, ooo and dont forget a falcon and a nyx....

Yes the thrasher is nice as is the Rifter, but the other races ships arent Underpowered per say they just arent flown right. Roaming yesterday i stumbled onto a cormorant that could perma tank my Vaga, even after i neuted him for like 20 minutes..... Epic fit, all im saying is that before you ask for buffs try flying each first

Dav Varan
Posted - 2010.12.06 11:12:00 - [18]
 

Some good suggestions and insights.


Mocam
Posted - 2010.12.06 13:59:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Bobbeh
While we are at it give every race a Zealot, and a guardian and a scimitar, ooo and dont forget a falcon and a nyx....

Yes the thrasher is nice as is the Rifter, but the other races ships arent Underpowered per say they just arent flown right. Roaming yesterday i stumbled onto a cormorant that could perma tank my Vaga, even after i neuted him for like 20 minutes..... Epic fit, all im saying is that before you ask for buffs try flying each first


He's talking about new starting players. Not year old chars. I don't see many 1 month old chars flying scimitar's, guardians, etc... I do see plenty of them around in destroyers and T1 frigates and many of those are itching for fights early on yet the recommendations I see tend towards "cross train to Minmitar" -- so 1 month or less in the game you're told to dump your races ships for a different one?!?! Not good.

As for the OP's suggestions... I don't know. I do think some adjustments are needed to the ships. Only the Thrasher has a decent rep for it's designed task among destroyers. The rest? ...

The design is for an alpha platform -- thus the -25% ROF on them. Turning them into DPS machines or the like would void that functionality. Perhaps adjust the ship bonuses or slots in some way to ease their use by newer players.

As for the frigates... ehh... Lots of changes over time have caused what we see. Speed changes, web changes, gun buffs and nerfs, etc... A review of the ships/bonuses is in order but I don't like "dump guns for missiles" on the Caldari ship. Can they at least get a couple "decent" gun ships vs EVERYTHING being about missiles for them?


Troll Bridgington
Incompertus INC
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.12.06 14:18:00 - [20]
 

No thanks. I like the little variety the races have as it is thank you very much.

And don't you go dissing Punishers!

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.12.06 14:23:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 06/12/2010 14:24:25
As much as I would love a 3 midslot Punisher or a tackling Coercer, then I am very much against sacrificing a staggering amount of tank and/or damage for the privilege.

- The destroyers can be "fixed" by normalizing (ugly as that word is) their speed/agility to some extent and lowering their signatures to just above frigate level.
- Punisher is sorted by replacing the cap bonus with a damage bonus and adding a bit of extra base cap (aka. Abbadonification).
- Tristan is already insanely powerful so not sure its needed at all, new players can fly Incursus' for the 'pure' hybrid experience and a Gallente missile boat is .. hmm, how to put it nicely ...
- Merlin is a hybrid boat (check bonus). Make it 3/1 and NOT 3/3 .. if you want a spammer frig use the Kestrel.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.12.06 14:27:00 - [22]
 

Not supported the minmatar in general may be a bit op now. But this will change. Merlin is decent. You don't need t2 rocket launchers on most fits anyway.

I'm really not sure what you want to accomplish for an under 1 week old character. They can tackle fine with a punisher or rifter or tristian. If they want to fight other frigates solo in their own frigate it will likely take longer than a week - rifter or no rifter.

But if this is the path they know they want to take then yeah drop caldari and train minmatar.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.12.06 14:43:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Toterra
Edited by: Toterra on 04/12/2010 02:47:23
Gallente Catalyst
Is this ship is designed to get up nice and close to an enemy and pound on them with unholy DPS? Not really, it is too slow to get in range to take advantage of its tracking bonus, has a useless falloff bonus, and no damage bonus. What exactly is this ship supposed to do? Swapping the falloff bonus for a 5% per level damage bonus would be a start.



Get used to it, this is how Gallente roll according to ccp. And to expand on that, the way they roll is like a barrel. on fire.

ALL of their DPS ships are too slow to get into range unless your adversary is an idiot.

Kentonio
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:59:00 - [24]
 

Incursus is a sexy biatch.

Bobbeh
Minmatar
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.12.09 09:12:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Bobbeh on 09/12/2010 09:16:40
Originally by: Mocam
Originally by: Bobbeh
While we are at it give every race a Zealot, and a guardian and a scimitar, ooo and dont forget a falcon and a nyx....

Yes the thrasher is nice as is the Rifter, but the other races ships arent Underpowered per say they just arent flown right. Roaming yesterday i stumbled onto a cormorant that could perma tank my Vaga, even after i neuted him for like 20 minutes..... Epic fit, all im saying is that before you ask for buffs try flying each first


He's talking about new starting players. Not year old chars. I don't see many 1 month old chars flying scimitar's, guardians, etc... I do see plenty of them around in destroyers and T1 frigates and many of those are itching for fights early on yet the recommendations I see tend towards "cross train to Minmitar" -- so 1 month or less in the game you're told to dump your races ships for a different one?!?! Not good.

As for the OP's suggestions... I don't know. I do think some adjustments are needed to the ships. Only the Thrasher has a decent rep for it's designed task among destroyers. The rest? ...

The design is for an alpha platform -- thus the -25% ROF on them. Turning them into DPS machines or the like would void that functionality. Perhaps adjust the ship bonuses or slots in some way to ease their use by newer players.

As for the frigates... ehh... Lots of changes over time have caused what we see. Speed changes, web changes, gun buffs and nerfs, etc... A review of the ships/bonuses is in order but I don't like "dump guns for missiles" on the Caldari ship. Can they at least get a couple "decent" gun ships vs EVERYTHING being about missiles for them?




No, i definitely got right and i stand by my point that it is not the ships its the pilots. New Players lack a knowledge of the game that allows for good fitting skill. The thrasher and rifter are easy to fit as 99% of the time its all gank almost no tank. But other races have it a lil harder as their ships need to designate a lil more to the tank or to the gank. But all in all they arent worse they are just harder to fit. Not to mention nub players love the lack of Capacitor from Minmattar weaponry, as they dont have to train up capacitor skills as high. One must remember Minmattar ships have split weapon types alot of the time which means added training, not in the first 2 ships ( frig and destroyer) but in cruisers/bc/bs/dreads all have ships with split weapons. That is not Nub friendly/

MNagy
Posted - 2010.12.09 15:46:00 - [26]
 

Not Suported.

"Every race needs a Domi that can tank c3's cause a cane can only tank c2's"

You can skill up in any ship you want to fly in eve - If you dont like one - use the other.

Fistme
Posted - 2010.12.09 16:51:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: MNagy
Not Suported.

"Every race needs a Domi that can tank c3's cause a cane can only tank c2's"

You can skill up in any ship you want to fly in eve - If you dont like one - use the other.


You fail, just because i can fly a titan does not mean it's ok my catalyst is god awful when compared to a thrasher.

Toterra
The Rifters
Posted - 2010.12.12 00:41:00 - [28]
 

Some of you seem to get what I am doing here, some don't. The point is not to buff one race or another. Or to make all races the same. Rather the point is so that no matter what race a new player starts with, they have something decent to fly in PvP within a week or two.... like the minmattar Rifter/thrasher. Yes month old + characters can cross train, but that is unlikely for week old players.

Incursis/kestral have less slots / base stats than the merlin/tristan. So merlin/tristan should be changed to be new player friendly, or they get swapped for the incursis/kestral as to which ship has the better base stats/slots.

Punisher is great... when using autocannons. Otherwise it is very very meh. Again, this is not practical for a new player.

Destroyers have their own topics so I may have been over-reaching here. But the fact remains that the catalyst has only one mid-slot = suckage. The cormerant uses hybrids when new caldari chars are focusing on missiles so it is not newb fiendly. The catalyst is fail cause it is too slow for it's short range weapons.

Don't nerf the newb friendly rifter/thrasher.... just give other races newb friendly ships.


 

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