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blankseplocked Orbit command should preserve the direction of your flight.
 
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Lorelei Lee
Posted - 2010.12.03 06:27:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Lorelei Lee on 03/12/2010 10:42:11
tl;dr I don't want my ship to have to slow down and make random changes in direction to get into an orbit.
(Thanks for the summary, William Cooly!)

Scenario:
Say you're 10km from a stationary object, and you are flying at your full speed perpendicular to the direction to the object (your transversal velocity is max, radial velocity is 0). You click "Orbit > 10 km". At this point, you are technically already in the right orbit, and all the ship has to do is start turning slowly in the smooth orbital arc. Instead, the ship usually makes a sharp turn to a random new course, and then starts in on its smooth arc along the new course.
Or, in math terms, the ship picks a random plane for its orbit, as opposed to staying in the plane it was already in.

Problem: There is a good chance your ship will slow down to a crawl long enough to make the completely unnecessary course change. That means if you are speed tanking and cannot afford to slow down, you cannot risk using the Orbit command.

Solution: Make the orbit start along the ship's current course, with no sharp course change except to reach the requested orbit range. In math terms, choose the plane of the orbit to be the plane containing these three points: { ship's current position, ship's position + ship's current movement vector, position of object being orbited }.

Math: I suspect the reason this hasn't been done yet is that nobody at CCP wants to mess with the necessary trig. I am totally willing to mess with trig, and can post the actual equation(s) later.

By the way, I am fairly sure the layman part of my explanation is confusing and inadequate. If somebody can offer a better translation of the math speak above into normal English, I would appreciate it.

William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
Posted - 2010.12.03 06:32:00 - [2]
 

tl;dr OP doesn't want your ship to have to slow down and make random changes in direction to get into an orbit.

At which I say, what do you think we run on, computers? The hamster will get tired if you try to make it do anything useful or logical.

Jyngo
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.12.03 06:40:00 - [3]
 

It's always bugged me that this happens. This would defiantly improve gameplay both in PvP and PvE. The programming to do this might be a bit fiddly but I'm guessing it wont impact too much on the server load?

Ned Black
Posted - 2010.12.03 08:15:00 - [4]
 

Agreed that this is very annoying... but what buggs me even more is the fact that if you turn you AB/MWD off you switch direction yet again.

Lorelei Lee
Posted - 2010.12.03 13:34:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Ned Black
Agreed that this is very annoying... but what buggs me even more is the fact that if you turn you AB/MWD off you switch direction yet again.
Oh, thanks for reminding me about that. I just did a quick experiment, and indeed this still happens. Furthermore, it happens not because an AB/MWN module comes on or off, but because your speed changes. To prove this, I kept my MWD on and just changed the throttle on my ship between full and like 20%.

Next experiment: while orbiting at high speed and long range, I reduce the throttle and see that the ship gets on a new orbit plane. Then I quickly bring the throttle back to max, and see that the ship gets back to its original orbit plane. In fact, the angle of the orbit plane seems to vary almost linearly with the ship's speed.

From this I conclude that the orbit plane is not random, but a deterministic function of my ship's position (relative to the object I am orbiting) and speed. These variables are all relevant to any reasonable calculation of the orbit trajectory. Therefore, I now suspect that what we are looking at is not an overlooked feature but a bug -- perhaps a botched attempt to do exactly what I was asking for above.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.12.03 14:50:00 - [6]
 

This seems sensible to me as well. I think spending the time to make this work smoothly would be time well spent by ccp.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.12.03 14:59:00 - [7]
 

Seems reasonable to me.

Alvin Exe
Corporation.exe
Posted - 2010.12.03 15:20:00 - [8]
 

Definitely supporting this !
Math would be pretty simple though...

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2010.12.03 15:45:00 - [9]
 

I'd like to see this too. While it doesn't affect me often, I really hate how turning on an ab/mwd to speed up actually stops my ship first.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:13:00 - [10]
 

This poor equine was beaten to a bloody pulp a few years ago to no avail Sad.

Let's hope the enemies of common sense can be made to see reason this time around.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:16:00 - [11]
 

Definately. Would improve the feel immensely.

Lorelei Lee
Posted - 2010.12.04 09:48:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
This poor equine was beaten to a bloody pulp a few years ago to no avail Sad.
Was there a resolution? Any chance you remember enough wording to search by, to find a representative thread from when this was last talked about?

My cursory search found people asking for fancy UI to set the orbit direction, people asking for automatic spiraling into/out of set orbit range, and people telling both of those to stop relying on Orbit feature so much and learn to pilot manually. Was there more?

One old thread about orbits reminded me of another problem: If you are inside your selected orbit range when you give the command, your ship will fly straight out until it reaches the set range. That is, like, the least useful way I can think of to get into your orbit.

Since we are on the subject, I propose a simple solution to that as well: If your ship finds itself inside the set orbit range, it should just keep flying along its current course (at max speed). It will hit the orbit range eventually, at which point it should start orbiting normally.

Depending on your course, you might get closer to your orbit center before you get farther away, but that's just an incentive to be smart about setting your course before hitting that Orbit command. (See a pattern here? The better pilot you are, the better use you should be able to make of the Orbit feature.)

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.04 10:24:00 - [13]
 

Okay, personally, here's how I'd like to see orbiting work:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Just for reference:
Your ship
Your flight vector
Plane perpendicular to your flight vector
Point where your flight vector intersects the plane
Orbit path
Orbit target

Basically, what would happen is that the system would find the plane perpendicular to your flight vector that is shared by your orbit target. It would then find the point where your ship, given its current vector, would intersect the plane. This would be the point at which you "enter" orbit around your target. The orbit, then, would exist on the plane which is shared by both your flight vector and the vector between your target and the orbit entry point. The distance of the orbit would be the distance between the orbit entry point and your target.

There are two oddities: Firstly, what to do if your orbit target is moving. Secondly, what to do if your orbit target is behind you.

But that's how I'd like to see orbiting work.

Zilberfrid
Posted - 2010.12.04 10:53:00 - [14]
 

Supported with supporting chunks of pure supportiveness and supportive mayonaise.

Mikkaras
Amarr
Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2010.12.04 11:19:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Okay, personally, here's how I'd like to see orbiting work:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Just for reference:
Your ship
Your flight vector
Plane perpendicular to your flight vector
Point where your flight vector intersects the plane
Orbit path
Orbit target

Basically, what would happen is that the system would find the plane perpendicular to your flight vector that is shared by your orbit target. It would then find the point where your ship, given its current vector, would intersect the plane. This would be the point at which you "enter" orbit around your target. The orbit, then, would exist on the plane which is shared by both your flight vector and the vector between your target and the orbit entry point. The distance of the orbit would be the distance between the orbit entry point and your target.

There are two oddities: Firstly, what to do if your orbit target is moving. Secondly, what to do if your orbit target is behind you.

But that's how I'd like to see orbiting work.

That's basically what OP is suggesting, although described in slightly different terms.

Three points define a plane. Note that the points marked on the image by your ship, the green X, and the red ship will suffice for this purpose. It won't be the plane you drew, but one perpendicular to that, and both the purple circle describing your orbit path and your current course would be on that plane.

If you draw a line between the green X and the red circle, that line makes a right angle with the line from your ship to the green X. This is relatively easy to solve. More steps are added when you want to orbit at a specific distance rather than whatever flyby distance your current course would result in.

If you are outside that distance and approaching, it's still fairly easy: You know the angle (90 degrees), the length of one leg of the triangle (your orbit distance), and the hypotenuse (the distance between your ship and your orbit target). You can use that to calculate the proper angle and make your course pass farther from or closer to your target, as necessary.

If you're moving away from the target, I think you just have to mirror your course so that it becomes "toward the target" but preserves the direction relative to it (clockwise or CCW) and then do the above.

If you're within the chosen orbit distance, the best solution would be one where you move away from the target at a 45 degree angle, spiraling out toward the chosen range, so that guns still have trouble tracking you instead of having a straight shot up your tailpipes as you fly straight away. This is why people use orbit instead of approach when trying to avoid damage while closing in. Having orbit act just like approach or keep at range when trying to move away is inconsistent as well as undesirable.

(Also, only slightly off-topic, what's up with "Keep at Range"? All the default options are basically the same as "approach", and equally useless at "keeping something at range instead of point blank" - even if you want to stay close to something, they are too short to avoid bumping into it constantly if it's moving. The list should have similar ranges to the orbit command.)

Lorelei Lee
Posted - 2010.12.04 13:55:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
[...]
There are two oddities: Firstly, what to do if your orbit target is moving. Secondly, what to do if your orbit target is behind you.
This infers your orbit range rather than letting you specify it explicitly. Most pilots have a good idea of their ship's best orbit range in km, so this way is not universally useful. However, it is a good option to have in addition to the current options: Orbit > { 500m, 1000m, ..., 50km, Current range, Current Closest Approach Range }.

To keep things reasonably simple, the range should be locked in when you click the button. If the orbit target is moving, system should still figure out the closest approach distance as known at clicking time and make that your orbit range. There are two options for calculating the closest approach distance:
(a) Assume the orbit target will stand still. As the target moves before you reach your orbit, your ship will gradually change direction to keep flying towards the new tangent point.
(b) Assume the target will maintain current course and speed. Your ship will fly straight towards the expected intersection point unless the target makes a turn. Then your ship will need to readjust as in case (a).

If the target is behind you, the most useful/expedient thing is to revert to "Orbit at Current Range".

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2010.12.04 14:10:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Soden Rah on 04/12/2010 14:13:28
If one is tampering with the flight control systems it would make sense to give it a complete overhaul. Which it needs, badly.

Now I know all the arguments about how eve is supposed to be played actively and not afk, or by macros. And I agree however flying ships in eve manually is tricky and time consuming as there is no means of typing in a direction to head in, or ability to use arrow keys or joystick. This is as I understand it because arrow keys or joystick would put too much load on the connection/server. So we have essentially autopilot options for flying the ship for almost everything. Which is fine, but they are really badly implemented auto pilot options. If i don't have a system for accurately flying my ship around then the autopilot has to be better. Who for example hasn't (when flying all zoomed out so you can see what’s going on strategically and reduce lag) bumped into a random piece of space debris/roid/warp gate and wondered after a while why your ship is getting pounded in place rather than racing in towards/running away from your opponent, only to find it bouncing around like a bucking bronco on some piece of space furniture you couldn't see from 100km out.

tl;dr autopilot options suck

Basically I would like the auto pilot to have BASIC collision avoidance, (the game must have some kind of proximity calculator in the physics engine to calculate collisions, so making it detect objects farther away and then take avoidance action ought not to increase server load. and if the ships fly’s along strait towards its destination till it gets quite close to an object before taking rather sharp avoidance action it would still be better to pilot manually but the auto pilot at least doesn't get stuck) and have some basic pre programmed behaviours. Like for example reverse course, move off in current direction (if you approach something arrive and stop. then hit full speed the ship just sits there, so you have to tell it to fly at something else or click madly in the general direction you want to go). Also making it slow to a stop at a certain range without colliding with the object your approaching.
Also options like being able to specify what happens when an object you are orbiting disappears, stop, carry on in strait line, continue orbiting spot where the object last was...

Anyhow OP supported, but if flight control systems getting looked at I want a complete overhaul, not just fiddling on the edges

EDIT: Spelling and Grammar

Syllein
Posted - 2010.12.04 16:37:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah
Stuff


Only problem I have with this is that manoeuvring your opponent into areas where a collision may occur is a valid tactic in itself.
Especially for those in bigger/ slower ships when fighting small stuff and/ or nano-ships. Very amusing if you pull it off successfully.

If you fly nano/ frigs then collisions (and trying to avoid them) is part and parcel of that flying style.

CRA5HD0WN
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.04 16:48:00 - [19]
 

they need to redo this orbit and flight controls, it will immerse the player big time.

how about manual flight controls? instead of click spam on the screen, how about we could enable a manual fly function? And use our keyboard controls; "Q" and "E" can be roll keys, AWSD direction and pitch. You will still have a mouse pointer working to manage the overview.

I can see the manual flight controlling being used for all sorts of occasions it makes me wonder why it isn't there yet.


Stegas Tyrano
Posted - 2010.12.04 17:36:00 - [20]
 

Yes, please.

This has bugged me ever since I started playing and seeing as we'll never get joystick controls at least polish this.

Shiho Weitong
Caldari
Koa Mai Hoku
Posted - 2010.12.04 19:20:00 - [21]
 

One thing I'd like to see for immersion.

Screw manual controls, spamming the mouse works fine. But why the frack can't my ship fly upside down?

I hate the fact that SCI-FI development people (movies and games) almost never seem to care about the fact that the ships are flying in space, WHERE THERE IS NO UP AND DOWN.

I hate the fact that all ships are turned the same way after a fight. It makes no sense at all.

Alien: "Some humans have stolen a batch of our ships and have infiltrated our fleet structure. How do we find them?"
Other alien: "Easy, just shoot the bunch, who's trying to have the exact same tilt."
Alien: "Stupid humans."

Lorelei Lee
Posted - 2010.12.21 05:20:00 - [22]
 

I finally got around to figuring out the math. Here it is, procedure first, then explanation, in case it's useful.

Given: the locations of the orbit target (T) and your ship (S), orbit radius (r), and your ship's currently set velocity vector (V).
Find: the goal vector (G) which will be the ship's set direction for the next simulation tick.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Procedure:
1. Let vector D = S - T (vector from orbit target to your ship)
2. Let scalar VD = dot product of V and D: Vx*Dx + Vy*Dy + Vz*Dz
3. Let scalar V^2 = the square of the magnitude of V: Vx^2 + Vy^2 + Vz^2
4. Let scalar D^2 = the square of the magnitude of D, as above.
5. Let scalar n = SquareRoot( r^2*(D^2 - r^2)/(V^2*d^2 - (VD)^2) )
6. Let scalar m = -(n*VD + D^2 - r^2)/D^2
7. Result: G = m*D + n*V
8. Follow-through: rescale G to match the ship's set speed.

Special Cases:
A. If you get a division by zero in step 5, then your ship is stopped, or flying directly towards the target or directly away from the target. Pick a random direction and start over.
B. If you get a negative number in the square root, then your ship is inside the orbit radius. Just keep flying straight until you find yourself outside it, then apply this procedure.
C. If you get a division by zero in step 6, then your ship is at the same location as the orbit target. Stop orbiting yourself, you'll go blind.

Explanation:
So we are looking for this vector G, which points along the line that passes through S and is tangent to the orbit sphere at point F (so far also unknown). There is an infinite number of such lines (each touching the sphere at a different point), but only two of them are in the plane defined by vectors D and V.
If you start from S and move some distance along V (forwards or backwards), then some distance along D, you can get to any point on that plane, but nowhere outside that plane. That means there exist two scalars (m) and (n), such that G = m*D + n*V. We solve the following system of equations for m, n, and G:

G = m*D + n*V -------- as above
G^2 + r^2 = D^2 -------- by pythagorean theorem
(D + G)^2 = r^2 -------- D + G gets us from center to edge of the orbit, so the magnitude of the sum must be r

Since there are two tangent points on this plane, there will be two solutions: one in front of your ship and one behind it (front being closest to which way it is moving now). Obviously, we want the front solution -- that's the one where n is positive, meaning you'll be going forward and not backward along V.

Misanthra
Posted - 2010.12.21 05:50:00 - [23]
 

/signed



Torrence Culverhouse
Posted - 2011.01.05 02:12:00 - [24]
 

As I speed tanker, I don't even know how many times I have been down to structure because my auto pilot decides the best way to start an orbital insertion is to fly DIRECTLY at the mob attempting to kill me. Im one for this improvement.

Calico Cool
Posted - 2011.01.09 01:56:00 - [25]
 

/Signed

This is a fix that is way overdue.

Bornix
Posted - 2011.01.10 21:12:00 - [26]
 

very /signed!

Yafricken Zerious
Posted - 2011.01.11 09:19:00 - [27]
 

Ditch engine trails.
Give us an orbit insertion locus.


 

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