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Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:03:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: NoLimit Soldier
I haven't ran into one of these drake gangs yet, but having been flying Caldari my entire eve career I feel like I should point out a few things.


1. It isn't like the drake was buffed and NOW its used everywhere. Caldari only has 3 viable solo ships (drake/rook/tengu) so leave the drake alone.

2. The drake gangs are probably ONLY using kinetic damage, missiles damage is easy to mitigate since it is purely speed/sig based. So why no one in one of these nullsec alliances doesn't say "ok everyone fit your kinetic hardeners and keep your speed up" is beyond me. 5 hurricanes with kinetic hardeners and full speed will tear to shreds 5 drakes toe to toe.

3. Unless they photon fit they have a GAPING EM hole.

4. "Because they can project their DPS to insane ranges and have tanks" If this were the case we would have alot of cruise raven gangs as they have more EHP, more range, more damage,SELECTABLE DAMAGE, more tank and the sigs are actually kinda close. Its just a FOTM, get over it.

I'm just confused as to why this is such a big deal, I think a few people just got curb stomped by 10x their fleet size in drakes and they scream overpowered.


Well, what corner of 0.0 are you living in? I'd like to move there and discover what environmental factors are saving you from the boredom of once again Drake on Drake vanila sex.Razz

Having flown in Drake fleets and against them I can tell you that smart pilots/alliances are not using exclusively kinetic missiles and the blob of them means that the loss of the damage bonus for dps is not a problem because such fleets rely on the volley alpha they can achieve with high numbers of massed missiles. The other fleet fitting all kinetic resists only dies.

Also, again the smart pilots/alliances are filling the Drake em hole with a photon.

Lastly, Ravens? I assure you it has been looked at as a counter. Hmm, not seeing Raven fleets out there.

You are confused, yet it is a problem. So either everyone else is stupid, or you are brilliant? No it has not been a few 10xsized Drake fleets stomping idiots in smaller fleets.Rolling Eyes Drake fleets are becoming the norm, whether outnumbering, even numbers, or outnumbered to the opposing fleet. CCP is noticing that Drakes are far outpacing other ships for kills, and to a lesser extent ranking on ships killed. Both numbers are demonstrating clearly the overwhelming preference for flying Drakes in pvp.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:15:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Edited by: Ulstan on 03/12/2010 16:53:12
Originally by: Lili Lu

edit- along with possibly a lock reange reduction on the ship itself so that if it wants to maintian the range setup it must sacrifice a midslot as well for a sensor booster, or another low slot for a signal amp.


If that happens, missiles need to do damage instantly. They get a greater range in exchange for taking a long time to reach the target.

And yet Drake fleets are proliferating. Delay on missile damage only matters to people who are focused on their place on the killmail. When you are in a Drake fleet that delay matters absolutley not to the individual or the fleet.

Originally by: Ulstan
Also, what is this nonsense about the Drake being the only ship that doesn't have to choose between gank and tank? What does that even mean? Other ships can put out similar tank/gank #'s. Every other shield based ship similarly doesn't have to choose between tank and gank. Should we start a campaign to nerf all the ships that don't have to choose between tank and propulsion/ewar?

It shouldn't be a big deal. People just have an irrational hatred of Drakes stemming back to the days when they were angry a 2 week old noob in a drake could do L4's and they still couldn't in their BS. The idea is that Drakes should, apparently, suck as much as every other Caldari ship and so it's utterly unacceptable to have the a battlecruiser from the shield tanking race, that excels in fleets, to have a good shield tank in a fleet set up to support him. Rolling Eyes


Apparently CCP hasn't cared about the 2-week(more like 4-week or longer but whatever) old Gallente, Amarr, or Minmatar noob angry at the snotty 2-week old Caldari noob that can do level 4s in a Drake, because they've never mentioned the pve imbalance as a problem. Although, I wish they would as I'm one of those irrational idiots that thinks noob ability to earn money should be somewhat balanced between the races.Smile Gee I wonder why so many fly Caldari or are Caldari characters? Other than the former Achura 3 charisma benefit or the ability to look like a tough guy in body armor.Wink

Ulstan
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:21:00 - [63]
 

Correction: a preference for flying drakes in laggy blob warfare PvP backed up by shield logistics.

This is, incidentally, what generates the most kills, but flying around low sec, Drakes are far from the only ship you see. (Because other ships are better at fleeing/catching stuff in low sec).

I think given the state of DD's, super carriers, probing, the effect of lag on missiles and cap, the way shield logistics work vs armor logistics, the preferences for drakes can be entirely explained.

Do you think cutting the drakes' damage by 10% would remove drake blobs? I don't. And 10% is a significant nerf. Do you think reducing drake's shields by 10% would remove drake blobs? I don't, and again, 10% is a significant nerf. That's because drakes are being flown so much because of underlying factors and the actual stats of the drake (which are NOT overpowered) are mostly secondary.

Fleet fights are about buffer and big alpha. Shield logistics repair instantly, armor logistics do not. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to realize that the ship with the biggest shield buffer is going to be favored.

That doesn't make the ship with the biggest shield buffer overpowered, obviously. It's a problem with the mechanics, not the ship. If the drake was nerfed so that it no longer had the biggest shield buffer, some other ship would take it's place. Maybe something that does even worse dps like a heavy missile ferox.


Zyress
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:27:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Lili Lu
Originally by: Ulstan
Edited by: Ulstan on 03/12/2010 16:53:12
Originally by: Lili Lu

edit- along with possibly a lock reange reduction on the ship itself so that if it wants to maintian the range setup it must sacrifice a midslot as well for a sensor booster, or another low slot for a signal amp.


If that happens, missiles need to do damage instantly. They get a greater range in exchange for taking a long time to reach the target.

And yet Drake fleets are proliferating. Delay on missile damage only matters to people who are focused on their place on the killmail. When you are in a Drake fleet that delay matters absolutley not to the individual or the fleet.

Originally by: Ulstan
Also, what is this nonsense about the Drake being the only ship that doesn't have to choose between gank and tank? What does that even mean? Other ships can put out similar tank/gank #'s. Every other shield based ship similarly doesn't have to choose between tank and gank. Should we start a campaign to nerf all the ships that don't have to choose between tank and propulsion/ewar?

It shouldn't be a big deal. People just have an irrational hatred of Drakes stemming back to the days when they were angry a 2 week old noob in a drake could do L4's and they still couldn't in their BS. The idea is that Drakes should, apparently, suck as much as every other Caldari ship and so it's utterly unacceptable to have the a battlecruiser from the shield tanking race, that excels in fleets, to have a good shield tank in a fleet set up to support him. Rolling Eyes


Apparently CCP hasn't cared about the 2-week(more like 4-week or longer but whatever) old Gallente, Amarr, or Minmatar noob angry at the snotty 2-week old Caldari noob that can do level 4s in a Drake, because they've never mentioned the pve imbalance as a problem. Although, I wish they would as I'm one of those irrational idiots that thinks noob ability to earn money should be somewhat balanced between the races.Smile Gee I wonder why so many fly Caldari or are Caldari characters? Other than the former Achura 3 charisma benefit or the ability to look like a tough guy in body armor.Wink


The selfless one of many outlook of the Drake Blob pilot perfectly mirrors the nature of Caldari society, where the individual is nothing and service to the Corp and the State come before any self consideration.

Ulstan
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:27:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 03/12/2010 17:30:57
Originally by: Lili Lu
Delay on missile damage only matters to people who are focused on their place on the killmail.


No, it matters a lot in any situation in which the opponent isn't too lagged to do something about it.

In essence, you're asking for one of the few pvp viable Caldari ships to be gutted across the board because of the way lag works in one part of EVE. Wouldn't it be better to fix those mechanics? Especially if, as I maintain, nerfing the drake won't actually solve your problem. You'll still continue to see monotone fleets, just the drake will be replaced by whatever other ship can mount a big shield buffer and fight in lag.

The only way to end the drake blobs without addressing the real underlying causes, is to make the drake pitiful and not worth flying in any situation whatsoever. You'd basically have to entirely remove its shield buffer. Is that what you want? For many, I think the answer is yes. Which shows us this is just a vendetta against the drake, not any actual pursuit of a balanced and diverse EVE experience.

Quote:
Although, I wish they would as I'm one of those irrational idiots that thinks noob ability to earn money should be somewhat balanced between the races.Smile


Why should it be? The ability to do solo pvp isn't balanced between the races, and that's far more important. Earning money in pve is trivially easy no matter what race you are.

Quote:
Gee I wonder why so many fly Caldari or are Caldari characters? Other than the former Achura 3 charisma benefit or the ability to look like a tough guy in body armor.Wink


Yeah, I wonder why...

1) Be a wrinkly old slaver!
2) Be a poor and destitute slave!
3) Be a frenchman!
4) Be a member of a powerful and wealthy militant empire!

Wait, I think I figured it out Laughing

Also, the archura thing is *huge*. And most people live in high sec and do pve. If you're arguing that pvp pilots first preference is caldari, I think you're mistaken.



Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:35:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Correction: a preference for flying drakes in laggy blob warfare PvP backed up by shield logistics.

This is, incidentally, what generates the most kills, but flying around low sec, Drakes are far from the only ship you see. (Because other ships are better at fleeing/catching stuff in low sec).

I think given the state of DD's, super carriers, probing, the effect of lag on missiles and cap, the way shield logistics work vs armor logistics, the preferences for drakes can be entirely explained.

Do you think cutting the drakes' damage by 10% would remove drake blobs? I don't. And 10% is a significant nerf. Do you think reducing drake's shields by 10% would remove drake blobs? I don't, and again, 10% is a significant nerf. That's because drakes are being flown so much because of underlying factors and the actual stats of the drake (which are NOT overpowered) are mostly secondary.

Fleet fights are about buffer and big alpha. Shield logistics repair instantly, armor logistics do not. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to realize that the ship with the biggest shield buffer is going to be favored.

That doesn't make the ship with the biggest shield buffer overpowered, obviously. It's a problem with the mechanics, not the ship. If the drake was nerfed so that it no longer had the biggest shield buffer, some other ship would take it's place. Maybe something that does even worse dps like a heavy missile ferox.




Ulstan, I like this post.Smile I entirely agree that various changes to the game, some of which you listed, have selected for the Drake. I don't necesarilly agree that nothing should be done to the Drake. But at least I can agree that CCP should be looking at the various factors in the game which are pushing the Drake to the top.

I said it above i think in this thread, although I may be getting threads mixed up, changes to BC shield regen, heavy missile range, and more slot competition might be enough to bring parity to the situation. None of these changes directly and solely nerf the Drake itself. Indirectly they do. But unless CCP is going to buff HAC and Logi hp, or BS hp, or lengthen short-range weapon range, or make rr armor reps heal at the beginning of the cycle, or shield rr heal at the end of the cycle, or some other class wide buffs to Drake competitors, then something has to indirectly or directly knock the Drake down a peg or two.

NoLimit Soldier
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:41:00 - [67]
 

Anyone find it funny that 6 months ago armor RR gangs were the standard and everyone complained about not having shield gangs. Now everyone is complaining about shield drake gangs.

People will always find something to complain about.





Ulstan
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:48:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 03/12/2010 17:50:17
Oh, the Drake definitely has to be knocked down a peg or two. I'm saying it needs to be done indirectly, because the underlying causes are the real reason you see nothing but Drakes.

Attacking the drake directly won't help much, unless it's such a severe nerf as to make the Drake literally useless (like removing the resist bonus, for example) such that no one flies it ever.

Remember, these fleets in high lag where missile delay doesn't matter, and shield logistics are plentiful, are the absolute best case for drakes. They should do well there. If they don't do well there, they aren't going to do well anywhere. Anything that made people not want to use the shield tanking BC from the fleet race for shield tanking fleets would mean the ship was essentially dead.

I think fleets of Drakes backed up by shield logisitics should be a big threat to AHACS. They should be defeated by battleships but no one flies huge battleship fleets anymore for a variety of reasons. Some of those can and should be addressed.

I think logistics can and should also be addressed. Armor just can't compete with shield in these situations when it reps at the end and shield at the beginning. They both need to rep at the same place. The differences between armor tanking and shield tanking are myriad, such that shield boosters happening at once and armor reps happening at the end seem to work out fairly well - there are enough other tradeofs to counter it.

But when you abstract to a whole fleet fight, shield repping vs armor repping is basically the same, except one happens right away and one happens after along delay - in an environment where every second counts.

When the only fleets you see are drakes/scimitars, I think it's fair to ask why the scim is the only logistics being flown, if you are also going to ask why the drake is the only BC being flown.

If they upped the viability of BS, and made shield reps rep at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning (with a commensurate reduction in the cpu/energy requirements perhaps) I think that would go a long way towards reducing the number of drake fleets out there and have created a better environment than simply slashing the drake's shields 50% or whatever would cause. (Oh and maybe we could have a few more viable shield tanked pvp battleships?)

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:51:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Why should it be? The ability to do solo pvp isn't balanced between the races, and that's far more important. Earning money in pve is trivially easy no matter what race you are.
...
Yeah, I wonder why...

1) Be a wrinkly old slaver!
2) Be a poor and destitute slave!
3) Be a frenchman!
4) Be a member of a powerful and wealthy militant empire!

Wait, I think I figured it out Laughing

Also, the archura thing is *huge*. And most people live in high sec and do pve. If you're arguing that pvp pilots first preference is caldari, I think you're mistaken.

I agree with you on the wrinkly old slaver. No way do I want a third person view on that when walking in stations comes.Razz

I don't agree that it is ridiculously easy to earn money in pve no matter the race. This may have to do with character age. I started in 2006 when you began with a pitance of sp, and just getting into a Prophecy took a fair amount of time.ugh Now, true, level 3s are available to all through any of the tier2 BCs. Level 4s however are still where the other noobs fall behind and need to train BS. Caldari can still use BC to earn level 4 income sooner. And it hardly delays their entry into Ravens or Nighthawks to do so. I know this because I later created a Caldari character specifically to train into a Drake and level 4s faster on another account. But of course this has not been viewed as a problem by CCP for years, so it is probably wasted effort to even talk about it.Neutral

Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:52:00 - [70]
 

Your typical fleet drake does 400-500 dps, damage out to 80km, has a 65k-70k average buffer shield tank, a mwd, a point of some kind, and a web. You can even fit a neut in that 8th slot if you play around. On top of all that it goes for 28 mil.

Just TRY and replicate that balance with the other BC's. You aren't going to be able to do it.

You can fly most of the 2nd tier BC's with some kind of dominance, especially with a couple of logistics ships scattered in there. The problem arrives at the cost and pilot skills. There are a crap ton of drakes, they are extremely cheap, and there are a TOOOOOOOOON of drake pilots.

What results is the current drake fleets we have today.
What drakes lack in damage they make up for in balance. They are painfully bland and similar in all their fits, and that is what makes them an excellent fleet ship.

I still ****ing hate them.

Larton Dretta
Posted - 2010.12.03 18:00:00 - [71]
 

The Caldari have a FOTM PvP ship? NERF IT! SPIT ON IT! HIT IT SOME MORE!

Ulstan
Posted - 2010.12.03 18:08:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 03/12/2010 18:08:12
Originally by: Lili Lu

I agree with you on the wrinkly old slaver. No way do I want a third person view on that when walking in stations comes.Razz


When I created my first character, I knew nothing about the game, and chose Caldari because their description sounded best, and then made a high willpower/cha character because it sounded like he would be good at PvP. And now my alts have more sp than my main :p

All subsequent accounts have been caldari archura, except for one minmatar or two once I got sick of staring at archura faces. I then train those archura to fly minmatar or amarr ships :p

Even if caldari hadn't had the 'best' attribute spread, I think they would have been most popular based on the appealingness of the description.

Quote:
I don't agree that it is ridiculously easy to earn money in pve no matter the race. This may have to do with character age. I started in 2006 when you began with a pitance of sp, and just getting into a Prophecy took a fair amount of time.ugh


I started even earlier, when earning enough money to buy a moa was a huge accomplishment. (Which you'd then fit with 150mm railguns because it didn't have the power grid for the 250mms). I think I mostly ratted in mara/passari in a merlin :p

Compared to those days, you can earn 100m just by rolling out of bed. That's what I mean when I say it's ridiculously easy to earn money now.

It's true the drake can tank missions easily, but the fastest way to earn money missioning is to have just enough tank to survive, and then lots of dps. Amarr ships are great at this in amarr missions. Using a drake is definitely 'easy' but I can afk missions in my gallente drone characters with even more ease and less attention. I've certainly had no trouble earning tons of money on my amarr/caldari/gallente characters through missions.

Minmatar don't seem to be as great for missions but then, they're great in PvP instead. Basically the best frigate, cruiser, and battlecruiser for solo pirating are all minmatar, so you're set.

Also note that power running L3's is often more lucrative than running L4s painfully slowly in a drake. A lot of people lose sight of this and assume that an L4 automatically means more income. This is definitely not the case if you're flying around a 200 dps drake that struggles to break BS tanks. Particularly so if, like me, your primary reason for running missions is to get some standings up.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.03 18:14:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Lili Lu on 03/12/2010 18:20:09
Originally by: Ulstan
Edited by: Ulstan on 03/12/2010 17:50:17
I think it's fair to ask why the scim is the only logistics being flown, if you are also going to ask why the drake is the only BC being flown. . .Oh and maybe we could have a few more viable shield tanked pvp battleships?)


I agree with this. Flying all 4 logistics between my characters I've thought for a long time they need to give the Basilisk and Oneiros some help relative to the Guardian and Scimi. Guardians have better enough stats and slot layout for armor fleets that noone complains about the cap transfer dependancy. While that is not the case with Basilisk and Scimi so noone wants to bother with the Basilisk cap transfer.

The Tempest could use a rework on slots toward shield, imo. Remote rep cycle changes are something that might have to be carefully tested, which ever way a change went.

Anyway, which in general is why I don't mind these threads the way so many people do. The game will always go through a never-ending cycle of "balancing" tweaks. It always has. This is a good thing imo. If it ever remained static it would die. If the drake gets knocked down and all of a sudden all we see are Abaddon fleets, or Raven fleets, something will give there as well. I have no problem with that. I think it would be indicative of relative health though if we had more of a mix of Sniper BS, sniper HAC, BC, AHAC, close range BS fleets (none of which were dominated by any particular ship within that calss) all appearing having differing levels of effectiveness against the other fleet types.

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2010.12.03 18:14:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Corporal Punishment08 on 03/12/2010 18:17:34
Originally by: Orion GUardian
Edited by: Orion GUardian on 02/12/2010 07:58:40
Yes its so flown because its a nice passive tanker for L3s as well...new players train them all the timeand fly them for PvE...



The Drake is not overpowered, its just that its usefulness in MASSIVE BLOBS of 50+ Drakes+Logistics has been seen. The ship wasn't changed and in fact: It was laughed at for useless in PvP for YEARS. And in low number engagements it still is...Speed, regardless of Transversal btw, negates part of the dmg. And there is no module to increase expl. velocity and Expl. Radius other than rigs

BTW: the DPS is with T2 ammo: LOWER Range, higher expl. radius, lower expl velocity and OVERHEATED? So thats as mucha s you get....doesn't sound impressive when you put it that way. Anyone got a Canefit to compare? a GOOD one?

And I'd like to see your 760 DPS drake fit as well....lets see how its EHP/Sig radius/Speed etc fares...

It is a slow mother****er with a sig-radius the size of a Carrier so noone has problems hitting it. The DPS is steady but they are delayed as well. By the time you hit your enemy the first time: He hit you twice already! (Or mor depending on range, his speed etc.) It has a fixed range for its missiles. You cannot change amo to change your Range. HMLs have a nice 70km, HAMLs atmost 15km (no module to increase it as well, but not necessary). SO if you HAM Drake with its 760DPS (maximum, targets speed and sig radius may reduce it greatly) engages someone with a Range of 20km that is faster....he is ****ed....


You need to do some research.
Winning the war in null
For solo

Snyderm
Posted - 2010.12.03 18:57:00 - [75]
 

I think to stop the drake from being the primary makeup of any large sub-BS force, you need to nerf the EHP of the drake.

Failing that, you would have to change how heavy missles work entirely so that they don't have near perfect damage projection without any range mods.

That is really it for possibilities.

Zyress
Posted - 2010.12.03 19:39:00 - [76]
 

All I've been hearing for most of a year is missiles suck for pvp and Armor tanks are better than shield tanks for pvp. The only thing thats changed is ppl found a tactic that worked for missiles and shields, if they are so $%^&ing OP why don't all you Autocannon, Laser beaming, Artillery chucking, armor tanking pvp gods just cross train to Caldari ships and join in the $%^&ing pwnage. Clearly what I'm getting from this thread is Caldari are the only viable pvp race...

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.03 20:08:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Zyress
if they are so $%^&ing OP why don't all you Autocannon, Laser beaming, Artillery chucking, armor tanking pvp gods just cross train to Caldari ships and join in the $%^&ing pwnage.


Because I can't ****ing stand FOTM chasers? I don't even like the number of Minnie ships I see in space, and I really hate all the Angel ships. (Though oddly, I've been seeing less and less of the last one. Maybe the former proliferation of Angel pilots are training for Drakes now because it's cheaper to lose.)

All that said, I'm still not on board with a Drake nerf, and I don't think it's any more likely than a laser nerf was prior to Dominion. History has shown some other change will come along, circumstances will change, and we'll all be whining about something else in the near future.

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.03 20:12:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
circumstances will change, and we'll all be whining about something else in the near future.

Nano Sheild Rail Mega's are ruining the game. Laughing

Snyderm
Posted - 2010.12.03 20:33:00 - [79]
 

It is as obvious as the nose in front of your face that people are cross training and flying drakes in ridiculous numbers.

In any blob or sufficiently large fleet that is sub-BS, its drake or gtfo.

The reason this is a bad thing is that it is eliminating variety in the game. Again, if you haven't noticed this, maybe you should undock once in awhile.


Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.12.03 20:33:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Meeko Atari on 03/12/2010 20:39:31
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
Edited by: Corporal Punishment08 on 03/12/2010 18:17:34
Originally by: Orion GUardian
Edited by: Orion GUardian on 02/12/2010 07:58:40
Yes its so flown because its a nice passive tanker for L3s as well...new players train them all the timeand fly them for PvE...



The Drake is not overpowered, its just that its usefulness in MASSIVE BLOBS of 50+ Drakes+Logistics has been seen. The ship wasn't changed and in fact: It was laughed at for useless in PvP for YEARS. And in low number engagements it still is...Speed, regardless of Transversal btw, negates part of the dmg. And there is no module to increase expl. velocity and Expl. Radius other than rigs

BTW: the DPS is with T2 ammo: LOWER Range, higher expl. radius, lower expl velocity and OVERHEATED? So thats as mucha s you get....doesn't sound impressive when you put it that way. Anyone got a Canefit to compare? a GOOD one?

And I'd like to see your 760 DPS drake fit as well....lets see how its EHP/Sig radius/Speed etc fares...

It is a slow mother****er with a sig-radius the size of a Carrier so noone has problems hitting it. The DPS is steady but they are delayed as well. By the time you hit your enemy the first time: He hit you twice already! (Or mor depending on range, his speed etc.) It has a fixed range for its missiles. You cannot change amo to change your Range. HMLs have a nice 70km, HAMLs atmost 15km (no module to increase it as well, but not necessary). SO if you HAM Drake with its 760DPS (maximum, targets speed and sig radius may reduce it greatly) engages someone with a Range of 20km that is faster....he is ****ed....


You need to do some research.
Winning the war in null
For solo


Correct me if I am wrong but...
The Heavy Missile Drake is the dominant setup in 0.0 fleets,
Heavy Assault Missile Drakes are great if setup correctly but lack the engagement range needed for drake blobs.


Tian Nu
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.03 21:06:00 - [81]
 

Drake is kind crazy ship it took me ages to kill one today (I forgot how stupid it was as tank).
don't nerf drakes
Needed cane for it the cyclone did not break the tank.
Is so cheap it should be like standard in 0.0 pvp, it lack dps but in gang of let say 3 drakes it will do just fine.

Zyress
Posted - 2010.12.03 21:24:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Zyress
if they are so $%^&ing OP why don't all you Autocannon, Laser beaming, Artillery chucking, armor tanking pvp gods just cross train to Caldari ships and join in the $%^&ing pwnage.


Because I can't ****ing stand FOTM chasers? I don't even like the number of Minnie ships I see in space, and I really hate all the Angel ships. (Though oddly, I've been seeing less and less of the last one. Maybe the former proliferation of Angel pilots are training for Drakes now because it's cheaper to lose.)

All that said, I'm still not on board with a Drake nerf, and I don't think it's any more likely than a laser nerf was prior to Dominion. History has shown some other change will come along, circumstances will change, and we'll all be whining about something else in the near future.


All I'm saying is I've been told as long as I've been playing that I need to crosstrain to Minmatar if I want to do pvp, so maybe they got it wrong if this thread is right, if you want to pvp crosstrain Caldari. Or maybe realize that a solo pvp ship isn't as good a fleet ship as a ship from the race designed to be used in fleets, and if the enemy has numbers over you and your fleet its not going to be a good day for you.

Ulstan
Posted - 2010.12.03 21:52:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Snyderm
It is as obvious as the nose in front of your face that people are cross training and flying drakes in ridiculous numbers.

In any blob or sufficiently large fleet that is sub-BS, its drake or gtfo.

The reason this is a bad thing is that it is eliminating variety in the game. Again, if you haven't noticed this, maybe you should undock once in awhile.




How is everyone flying shield BC's with shield logistics worse for variety than everyone flying armor AHACS with armor logistics or RR armor gangs?

If the ferox wasn't so terrible, you'd probably see them in the blobs too.

Solution: boost ferox!

It sounds like you're mostly angry that people are cross training to caldari instead of from caldari :D

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:32:00 - [84]
 

This is some excellent analysis by Ulstan. One thing deserves to be emphasised:

The factors that make Drake & logistics blobs attractive will still exist regardless of any plausible Drake nerf. You could cut any of the following factors by 20% - lock range, HML volley, HML range or EHP - and the motivation for flying Drakes and logistics will still be there. Even if you remove the resist bonus - and what would you replace it with? - then the combination of good DPS at good range on a cheap, low-SP platform will still be extremely attractive.

There is no realistic Drake or HML nerf that will change this, and any attempt to impose one will not only fail to achieve its intended effect, but also have a catastrophic side-effect of unnecessarily nerfing the Drake in the small-gang/solo environments where it's balanced just fine.

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2010.12.03 23:43:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Originally by: Snyderm
It is as obvious as the nose in front of your face that people are cross training and flying drakes in ridiculous numbers.

In any blob or sufficiently large fleet that is sub-BS, its drake or gtfo.

The reason this is a bad thing is that it is eliminating variety in the game. Again, if you haven't noticed this, maybe you should undock once in awhile.




How is everyone flying shield BC's with shield logistics worse for variety than everyone flying armor AHACS with armor logistics or RR armor gangs?

If the ferox wasn't so terrible, you'd probably see them in the blobs too.

Solution: boost ferox!

It sounds like you're mostly angry that people are cross training to caldari instead of from caldari :D


Abso-****ing-lutely.

The whole thing about the drake is that it shows how alliance warfare has gone in terms of organisation and command. Alliances have to deal with a lot of problems, and foremost amongst them is that their grunts are mainly not especially high SP and ***** and moan about taking expensive losses. Most people joined the NAP-fest alliances just to go ratting. So alliance leaders found a way to standardise their pvp fleets to these factors. Everyone has a drake, and they are cheap to replace. Even with rigs and t2, they aren't a huge blow to loose. Also, they have good EHP, and so that means you don't need to manoeuvre to keep them alive in a fight the way you do with other non-buffer sub-BS. You can keep them close together and use HML range instead of moving around.

Because of all of these factors, you can a) mobilise your whole alliance, because no-one can seriously claim to not have a drake; b) fight without the need for much individual skill (a serious problem when a lot of your alliance just PvE a lot), your guys just need to use a standard fit and shoot the primary; and c) even if you wipe a huge a blob of drakes, its not the end of the world, thus meaning that you can mobilise the whole alliance again tomorrow.

In the past, the most effective fleets were ALWAYS the ones that were made up of as few ship types as possible. RRBS had their day, as did vagabonds etcetc. Hell PL did some EVIL things with just zealots and guardians.

Then someone came up with the draketrain, that was incredibly cheap and disposable, only requiring a handful of high SP guys to run the vulture and the basilisks, and it turned out it was actually really good for a variety of reasons. Thats because the whole gang is built around its strengths.

No, the gang is not unbeatable and the drake does not need a nerf, because PvP moves in cycles and in 6 months something else will be de-cried as needing a nerf because it wipes drakes real easy. The drake train is probably going to stay for a long while, because it is so cheap and effective (probably the best bang for buck of any fleet formation) and for alliances built on the back of relatively low SP guys with relatively little money it's just a dream come true.

TL:DR... The drake is fine, its just that its popular. And its popular for good reasons. For me, the more people who can participate in PvP the better.

Cor Aidan
Shore Leave
Posted - 2010.12.04 00:37:00 - [86]
 

All I can say on the matter is that if ships are balanced, there would be equal recommendation and representation of a particular ship type. Any time one ship of a class is always recommended for some role, or one ship in some class is flown significantly more often than other ships in the same class, there is some imbalance. Saying that "everyone can train for ship X" does not imply balanced ships.

For instance, if PvE were balanced, you'd see a distribution of racial ships depending on the particular PvE targets. If you have a single racial ship that is flown regardless of PvE target, that ship has some kind of imbalance (that makes it "better at PvE than other ships in its class.") While you could say "that's it's role, to be best in PvE" then you have to admit that "best in PvE" is an inherent imbalance: it's best!

Same thing goes for PvP: any time some ship is said "if you want to do X, you should fly ship Y" then ship Y has some imbalance making it preferred for role X. Role-specific abilities are actually imbalanced, but this actually appears to be part of EvE's game design. True balance would be "armor tank and shield tank have different mechanics, but there is no inherent benefit or detriment to picking either one." This is obviously not the case; there are some cases where shield tanks are clearly better than armor tanks, and vice-versa.

It gets even worse, when you respond with "the counter to ship X is ship X" instead of "the counter to ship X is ship Y". Similarly, any time "the counter to ship X is ship Y and ship Z" that is imbalanced. Balance is only implied if you have something like "the counter to ship X is ship Y or ship Z."

In my opinion, paper-rock-scissors has an inherent imbalance, because paper will always beat rock; this is not actually balance. Actual balance would be if paper beats rock 50% of the time, and rock beats paper 50% of the time, for equally skilled pilots.

That said, I would wager that most pilots really don't want a "balanced" universe. Instead, they want their preference to align with the current "automatically recommended" ships.

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2010.12.04 01:10:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Cor Aidan

Same thing goes for PvP: any time some ship is said "if you want to do X, you should fly ship Y" then ship Y has some imbalance making it preferred for role X. Role-specific abilities are actually imbalanced, but this actually appears to be part of EvE's game design. True balance would be "armor tank and shield tank have different mechanics, but there is no inherent benefit or detriment to picking either one." This is obviously not the case; there are some cases where shield tanks are clearly better than armor tanks, and vice-versa.

It gets even worse, when you respond with "the counter to ship X is ship X" instead of "the counter to ship X is ship Y". Similarly, any time "the counter to ship X is ship Y and ship Z" that is imbalanced. Balance is only implied if you have something like "the counter to ship X is ship Y or ship Z."

In my opinion, paper-rock-scissors has an inherent imbalance, because paper will always beat rock; this is not actually balance. Actual balance would be if paper beats rock 50% of the time, and rock beats paper 50% of the time, for equally skilled pilots.

That said, I would wager that most pilots really don't want a "balanced" universe. Instead, they want their preference to align with the current "automatically recommended" ships.


You misunderstand how balance works.

If ships were balanced the way you want, all ships would be identical (ie in any given situation a very large number of ships dose very similar damage with very similar EHP and maneuverability) which is not balance. That's making everything the same.

In this game, there are a VAST number of different situations, and all of them have a couple of ships that are undoubtedly better than others. Some ships are awesome solo, some are awesome in a gang, some are awesome in a fleet. Nothing is top dog at all of them, and certainly none are good at all the variations of all of them.

People are NOT saying 'If you wanna PvP, train a drake'. Not by a vast margin. People are however saying 'Since you are a low SP character who wants to get into alliance/big fleet pvp without spending too much isk and having something that can do double duty as a ratting ship when you're off duty, train a drake'.

The thing about balance, particularly in eve, is that Rock/Paper/Scissors IS balanced because its not just a random choice, you can look at what the other guy has been throwing a lot, and think about what you wanna throw back. The trick is that you have to make the other guy bring paper when you have scissors.

Balance in eve is achieved across a grand strategic scale, and its nothing to do with individual engagements. If you look Here you'll see the drake blob get ANNIHILATED. Killed so hard its funny. And that means its balanced. If you're gang can loose that badly to someone fit to kill you, thats balance in eve. Its only when nothing can beat you that its borked. You've ALWAYS had to fit for who you are fighting. Trying to derive balance from a 'fair' generalised fit is bull**** based on the flawed assumption that fair fights a) happen, and b) are the ideal.

Some things that were imbalanced: NanoBS, Nos+ECM Domis, WCS Ravens.

Those were so broken that no matter how clever or prepared you were you couldn't win.

If you fail to do your homework (scouting and KB analysis which ANY alliance should be doing) then you deserve to fail and get owned by drakes. If you do, then you'll beat anything everytime.

Complaining that you need a certain thing to beat another thing is for other MMOs. Its like saying that the other guys cheated because they only fit amarr jammers and nuked all your guardians. Its playing smart to use the fits that win.

Cor Aidan
Shore Leave
Posted - 2010.12.04 01:23:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Katarlia Simov


Suffice it to say, we have difference definitions of "balance."

I would argue my definition of balance does not actually require identical ships with different skins; it just requires a system of tradeoffs not in the sense of "rock-scissors-paper" but in the sense of "if you want a more accurate rifle at long range you have to make it with an appropriate barrel, scope, take longer between shots to aim, and have a shell with the correct dimensions, mass, and powder content." (As opposed to saying "this gun is just magically better at shooting farther with no difference in required energy, cost to manufacture, ammo, or time spent aiming.")

Proxyyyy
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.04 03:47:00 - [89]
 

"Ballance" is for loser-donkey-bangerz!

Kai Yuen
Posted - 2010.12.04 07:07:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Lili Lu

And yet Drake fleets are proliferating. Delay on missile damage only matters to people who are focused on their place on the killmail. When you are in a Drake fleet that delay matters absolutley not to the individual or the fleet.



Oh please. Everyone knows that damage delay makes a world of difference. It's the difference between having the time to broadcast for reps or warp out and not having said time by dying instantly. In the case of cruise missiles, its the difference between being completely useless and not being completely useless, cruise missiles heavily on the completely useless side.

Originally by: Lili Lu

Apparently CCP hasn't cared about the 2-week(more like 4-week or longer but whatever) old Gallente, Amarr, or Minmatar noob angry at the snotty 2-week old Caldari noob that can do level 4s in a Drake, because they've never mentioned the pve imbalance as a problem. Although, I wish they would as I'm one of those irrational idiots that thinks noob ability to earn money should be somewhat balanced between the races.Smile Gee I wonder why so many fly Caldari or are Caldari characters? Other than the former Achura 3 charisma benefit or the ability to look like a tough guy in body armor.


Again, please. Drakes are the only Caldari ship that's PvP viable, so the caldari noobs days of dominance are short lived once he tries to venture into the HAC, BS, or capital realm where armor, lasers, projectiles, and slaves rule. Also, CCP Chrontis was dead wrong when he said the Drake doesn't have to choose between tank and gank. The hurricane can make an amazing tank along with better DPS than the Drake, but it's an armor tank. The problem is that they made all other tier 2 BCs armor tanks and the only one with shield in mind was the Drake. Why would you only give a shield tank 4 mids and 6 lows? Because it's not a shield tank. The harbi is the same deal. As an armor tank it can tank and gank fairly effortlessly. Of course the Drake owns in the shield fleet. Everything else is armor. QQ. That doesn't make it OP. That just means your options are severely limited. Nerfing the Drake is just a childish reaction to an effect that isn't even the cause. The cause is absence of battleships in 0.0, MOMs, tier 1 BC suckage, and the economic efficiency of BCs vs HACs. The Drake fleet is the effect. It's what happened at the end of this fail cascade of eliminating the Drake's natural predators while leaving a void in the realm of shield BCs where only 1 was actually a shield BC to begin with.


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