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Brian Ballsack
Posted - 2010.12.02 12:57:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Niclas Solo


CanI haveyourstuff? Please.


He hasnt got any stuff apart from his noobship, hes came here from wow so he will have no clue how an adults game works.
Hopefully he will be back in the childrens land of azeroth soon, spamming hotkeys, playing with his UI and dueling 10 year olds.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.12.02 14:32:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Cruise Withaker
I don't get it! If the Drake is so UNFAIR, why the hell does everyone not train it up? Since when did everyone in Eve grow a conscience and uber sense of sportsmanship! Shocked
Uh, dude? A great number of people do train it up. It's one of the most flown ships in the game. It may actually be the most flown ship in the game (outside of shuttles and rookie ships) if my memory of the recent economic report is right.



Yeah, but really who cares about PvE? That's what distorts the numbers. Drake's a good PvE boat.
In reality, it's a good choice for a PVP ship, for someone who wants to use web and scram, and do a credible amount of damage. It's probably the best Caldari ship for this, but ... well, look at the competition?
It's more popular, because of this. Where in other races you'll see a selection of ships that can credibly do the classic tackle, tank and gang, Caldari really only gets one.

*shrug*.

It's a good ship, and no mistake. But it's not massively better than the other tier 2 battlecruisers. If it stands out as generally better than a lot of the Caldari lineup for PvP... well, is that really much of a surprise to anyone?

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.02 14:59:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Igualmentedos
So...is the drake getting nerfed? If it is, I'd love to get a link or something.


http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1394389&page=1 CCP finally realizes that something is out of whack when the most flown ship in pve is also the most flown ship in pvp, and announces that something will be done.

Please, consider reading the entire thread before posting. It is not a poll. It is already a very long thread and seriously does not need another "bbbbbut the drake's damage is crap" or "bbbut this is the only pvp ship Caldari have" post, or the equivalent on the other side. If someone has a new argument that has not already been presented multiple times I would be surpised.Razz

I'm a Drake hater, and have been ever since the ship came out. So, i'm pleasantly surprised CCP is finally going to do something about the ship imbalance situation. But I'm also realistic, and can easily see CCP shrinking back from the responsible course of action and wimping out in the face of the huge chorus of petulent footstomping. If CCP does wimp out, my alts will keep flying the stupid things along with all the rest of you in the drake booster club.ugh

Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
Posted - 2010.12.02 15:12:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: CanI haveyourstuff


no please? :D srsly.. eve is boring for me :D pvp is boring.. pvp died when everything changed to massive blobfes and nodes crashing all the time.

today you cant pvp without alt or gang or blob... theres either you die in some stupid gatecamp or you wont find anyone in 0.0 whos willing to shoot back.

amirite


Confirming that the only pvp in eve is 0.0 blob warfare. YARRRR!!

Protip: If everybody only ever entered fights they know they can win, there wouldn't be very many fights. **** your k/d ratio, actually enjoy this game a little.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.02 15:49:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Lili Lu

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1394389&page=1 CCP finally realizes that something is out of whack when the most flown ship in pve is also the most flown ship in pvp, and announces that something will be done.


Thanks for posting, but that link is what this thread is about? That's some old, old news.

Anyway. The issue CCP has with the Drake, if you read the thread, is that it's popularity causes the premature death of servers. Part of the patch notes they just released covers improvements for missiles on server CPU load.

So the initial Drake nerf was a server code buff. People should stop freaking out until CCP actually posts something concerning stat changes to the ship.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.02 16:42:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
Thanks for posting, but that link is what this thread is about? That's some old, old news.

Anyway. The issue CCP has with the Drake, if you read the thread, is that it's popularity causes the premature death of servers. Part of the patch notes they just released covers improvements for missiles on server CPU load.

So the initial Drake nerf was a server code buff. People should stop freaking out until CCP actually posts something concerning stat changes to the ship.


I posted the link (although failed once again to actually make it a link Laughing) because the poster I was responding to seemed to not know where all the talk in general was coming from.

They have stated and rightly so that it is not just the server performance issues that give them concern about the ever increasing number of Drakes and Drake fleets, it is in fact the imbalance in numbers. Noone wants this game to become Drakes Online do they? Because carrying the trend to it's not so unlikely extreme that's where the game would go.

Btw there is another thread in features and ideas now on the drake in which a deve has responded. Again saying it's "being looked at" without giving any specific. Which leads me to believe Drake lovers can rejoice that the drake nerf will not make it into the January patch Sad

Zahira Wrath
Amarr
Dominion Strategic
Posted - 2010.12.02 17:03:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Zahira Wrath on 02/12/2010 17:04:52
Originally by: Lili Lu

They have stated and rightly so that it is not just the server performance issues that give them concern about the ever increasing number of Drakes and Drake fleets, it is in fact the imbalance in numbers. Noone wants this game to become Drakes Online do they? Because carrying the trend to it's not so unlikely extreme that's where the game would go.

Btw there is another thread in features and ideas now on the drake in which a deve has responded. Again saying it's "being looked at" without giving any specific. Which leads me to believe Drake lovers can rejoice that the drake nerf will not make it into the January patch Sad


I think your failing at reading comprehension. You seem to be using a crystal ball module without reading the item description.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Please read over this important quote a few times until it sinks in:

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced. When you get 50+ of them all buffer tanking and alpha striking people at upto ~85km as the current FOTM strategy is out there, this underpins their usefulness (max buffer for sig/speed tank and max range with same damage) so this is a scenario specific issue to large fleet warfare. There are counter strategies to this, but drakes+scimitars is an easier to coordinate tactic. The drakes tank or specifically its passive tank does concern us where both can be equally affected in a similar way. Food for thought anyway, we rarely intervene with emergent strategies and tactics as a counter usually matures after some time but will keep an eye on this thread to see what the rest of you think.



Quote TLDR: CCP Thinks Drakes are balanced. In large fleet warfare they are nasty. However this is an emergent strategy problem, something they don't like to interveen on. CCP isen't going to touch the Drake in the foreseeable future.

Post TLDR: Lili's tin foil hat is on too tight.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.02 17:10:00 - [38]
 

Yes and that is the only thing that has been said concerning Drakes. . . But if it makes you happy and allows you to sleep peacefully at night safe in the knowledge that your precious drake will remain unchanged VoV

Also, tin foil hat, magic crystal ball ? My feeelings are very hurt! Crying or Very sad Not cool man, not cool.Laughing

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.02 17:18:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Lili Lu

They have stated and rightly so that it is not just the server performance issues that give them concern about the ever increasing number of Drakes and Drake fleets, it is in fact the imbalance in numbers. Noone wants this game to become Drakes Online do they? Because carrying the trend to it's not so unlikely extreme that's where the game would go.


I've read many successful arguments that the reason Drakes have proliferated so much is that their natural "predator," the battleship, has been in sharp decline since the supercarrier buff. (Kinda neat how evolutionary selection pressure shows up in virtual environments as well.)

With the nerf to fighter-bomber performance against subcap ships, I think CCP is rightly waiting it out several months to see if the Drake proliferation issue fixes itself. I just hope the F/B changes went far enough.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.02 17:31:00 - [40]
 

I would agree with your suposition except for the fact that an extendered drake's sig is already that of a BS so the alteration of the fighterbomber ability to hit BS sized ships will not change the drake v BS situation.

Another poster in the new drake nerf thread in F&I shouted that it is shield transfers on logis operating at the beginning of the cycle that gives the drake blob it's advantage. That is worth considering.

However, it still doesn't alter the fact that a specific BC fleet is not just able to counter and best all other similarly sized BC fleets, but also similarly sized BS or HAC fleets. There still would remain in the game an economic incentive and game mechanic incentive to use a particular and relatively low-skilled inexpensive ship over the more skill or isk intensive options.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.12.02 18:30:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Lili Lu
I would agree with your suposition except for the fact that an extendered drake's sig is already that of a BS so the alteration of the fighterbomber ability to hit BS sized ships will not change the drake v BS situation.

Another poster in the new drake nerf thread in F&I shouted that it is shield transfers on logis operating at the beginning of the cycle that gives the drake blob it's advantage. That is worth considering.

However, it still doesn't alter the fact that a specific BC fleet is not just able to counter and best all other similarly sized BC fleets, but also similarly sized BS or HAC fleets. There still would remain in the game an economic incentive and game mechanic incentive to use a particular and relatively low-skilled inexpensive ship over the more skill or isk intensive options.


You missed the point I think.
The Drake's sig is BS sized, which means it's BS that tear them to shreds - because a solid BS does twice the damage (to that sig) and has more EHPs, tank, neuting etc.

There are less BS in play at the moment, because BS get slaughtered by fighter bombers, and so... well, why bother with one, when you could use a Drake instead?
Similarly stuff like sniper BS are evolutionarily de-selected by 5s on grid warps, and just a general realisation that the RR BS gang isn't as good as everyone thought.

So it goes. If you get more BS on the field though, suddenly the Drake stops being quite so dominating, simply because a Raven will eat it for lunch, with it's fat sig and 1300dps.

Footoo Rama
Gallente
Beyond Control.
Posted - 2010.12.02 18:48:00 - [42]
 

Look I hate the drake, I think it is a boring ship for pansy's, who are afraid to lose ships, it has subpar dps in most of the common fits. Is it imbalanced? Well... Is teh DOmi imbalanced as it is the cheapest effective mission runner in the game? Or the fact it can be fitted in numerous ways for pvp and still be very effective? (assuming BS's are still used in pvp)

Sure the drake blobs are an issue, but ahac tactics are changing as well as firewall anti-drake fleets which are bringing the BS back into the game.

Sure it is a lame ass ship, but it does not need a nerf, the gallante BC's need some help as they tend to be fairly worthless in in PvP and non cost effective in PvE vs the domi.

Tusen Takk
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund
31ST Reliables Division
Posted - 2010.12.02 18:55:00 - [43]
 

there is no drake nerf if i see one more thread about it then i am banning everyone who posts in it

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.02 19:29:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
You missed the point I think.
The Drake's sig is BS sized, which means it's BS that tear them to shreds - because a solid BS does twice the damage (to that sig) and has more EHPs, tank, neuting etc.

There are less BS in play at the moment, because BS get slaughtered by fighter bombers, and so... well, why bother with one, when you could use a Drake instead?
Similarly stuff like sniper BS are evolutionarily de-selected by 5s on grid warps, and just a general realisation that the RR BS gang isn't as good as everyone thought.

So it goes. If you get more BS on the field though, suddenly the Drake stops being quite so dominating, simply because a Raven will eat it for lunch, with it's fat sig and 1300dps.

The drake has the same sig as the BS. The only deselecting the fighterbombers are doing is economic. I agree with you about the grid warps. Sniper BSs would rule drakes if the grid warps weren't so easy.

BSs would still be being selected for if what you say is true about BS damage v drake damage. . but they aren't. The theoretical high damage you posit for BSs depends on ability to sacrifice armor tank lowslots for fitting damage mods (something which the Drake does not have to do as its tank is in the mids so it is free to fit BCUs as long as it still has CPU to spare). Also, that theoretical high damage BS cannot put that damage out to 70km. Unless maybe it is an apoc with TC or TE and then it does not have the resist bonus nor the mobility of the drake since it is fitting plates. This is why the only halfway decent anti-drake BS is the Abaddon. But then it can get kited by the drakes because it does not get a range bonus to help the pulses. Add to it that turret damage is subject to hit quality formula whereas the heavy missiles are troubled less by the typical fleet BS sig radii or speeds (unless it is v an AHAC fleet, but again those AHACs will not have the buffer to handle the missile alpha once you get a large enough drake blob).

Originally by: Footoo Rama
Look I hate the drake, I think it is a boring ship for pansy's, who are afraid to lose ships, it has subpar dps in most of the common fits. Is it imbalanced? Well... Is teh DOmi imbalanced as it is the cheapest effective mission runner in the game? Or the fact it can be fitted in numerous ways for pvp and still be very effective? (assuming BS's are still used in pvp)

Sure the drake blobs are an issue, but ahac tactics are changing as well as firewall anti-drake fleets which are bringing the BS back into the game.

Sure it is a lame ass ship, but it does not need a nerf, the gallante BC's need some help as they tend to be fairly worthless in in PvP and non cost effective in PvE vs the domi.

I've flew in the famed initial successful Firewall BS fleet. I also flew in later firewall BS fleets which weren't as such, heh. The firewall tactic can work but has its own quirks and problems, which I won't disclose because I don't want possibly to harm my former INIT brosefs. Sufices to say that INIT is no longer flying them and has, guess what, adopted Drakes.Neutral Domi fleets are not what is omnipresent in 0.0 large scale fleet battles now are they. So that is sort of a red herring argument. And even though I prefer and love a Domi for PVE it is hardly outnumbering the Drakes and Ravens in that arena, is it.

Originally by: Tusen Takk
there is no drake nerf if i see one more thread about it then i am banning everyone who posts in it
And you are? Laughing

Lord Ryan
Derailleurs
Posted - 2010.12.02 19:48:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Brian Ballsack
Originally by: Niclas Solo


CanI haveyourstuff? Please.


He hasnt got any stuff apart from his noobship, hes came here from wow so he will have no clue how an adults game works.
Hopefully he will be back in the childrens land of azeroth soon, spamming hotkeys, playing with his UI and dueling 10 year olds.
Thx bro! I feel dirty for even reading that! Never ever ever use WOW jargon here again! Off to the showers! Crying or Very sad

Larton Dretta
Posted - 2010.12.02 20:21:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Larton Dretta on 02/12/2010 20:23:37
Originally by: Brian Ballsack
Its very boring to fly and does rubbish dps


After so many years, you'd think people finally realized how to properly fit those ships. If you think that Drake DPS is by any reasonable measures lower than a Hurriane or a Brutix, then i'd love some of what you're smoking, in exchange i'll fund you a lobotomy so you can forget EFT ever existed, for your own sake.

EDIT: and BTW, Drake's just your normal BC, if you're going to nerf a Drake, you might aswell do the same to the Rupture f.e. because it's just as noticeably much above the rest of the T1 Cruisers.

El'Tar
Caldari
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.12.03 01:43:00 - [47]
 

drake being popular has more to do with the fact it's much more accessible to scrubs more than anything (both rl + ingame SKILLZDATKILLZ )

mmmPork
Posted - 2010.12.03 02:49:00 - [48]
 

ITT: Morons responding to a ret**ds ill-informed idea of what this game should be.

Brian Ballsack
Posted - 2010.12.03 04:52:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Larton Dretta
If you think that Drake DPS is by any reasonable measures lower than a Hurriane or a Brutix, then i'd love some of what you're smoking.


Some of us have skills

TaluxA
Posted - 2010.12.03 05:43:00 - [50]
 

But drake dps is lower than a brutix or hurricane

(at less than 10km)

SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2010.12.03 07:19:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Killstealing
Originally by: Corndog Sandwich
the problem is more with the ferox, cyclone, gallente BCs, and tier 1 amarr BC

they really suck!

remind me again why to buy a cyclone when you can get a cane



Because the cyclone can put up an uber solo-tank and do solo-pvp like a king?

Kai Yuen
Posted - 2010.12.03 09:39:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Lili Lu

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1394389&page=1 CCP finally realizes that something is out of whack when the most flown ship in pve is also the most flown ship in pvp, and announces that something will be done. Please, consider reading the entire thread before posting.



Apparently you should read the full thread as well.

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced. When you get 50+ of them all buffer tanking and alpha striking people at upto ~85km as the current FOTM strategy is out there, this underpins their usefulness (max buffer for sig/speed tank and max range with same damage) so this is a scenario specific issue to large fleet warfare. There are counter strategies to this, but drakes+scimitars is an easier to coordinate tactic. The drakes tank or specifically its passive tank does concern us where both can be equally affected in a similar way. Food for thought anyway, we rarely intervene with emergent strategies and tactics as a counter usually matures after some time but will keep an eye on this thread to see what the rest of you think.



The Drake itself is balanced. Lack of its counter-tactic employment is what brings it's popularity up. Battleships are lame. I love battleships, but flying them is certain death. Fix battleships and the Drake won't be nearly as FOTM. Armor HACs are a perfectly good counter, but they're expensive and skill intensive. Same with sniper HACs. Bring battleships back and the Drake's popularity will taper off.

Originally by: Lili Lu

It is not a poll. It is already a very long thread and seriously does not need another "bbbbbut the drake's damage is crap" or "bbbut this is the only pvp ship Caldari have" post, or the equivalent on the other side. If someone has a new argument that has not already been presented multiple times I would be surpised.Razz



I hope they never touch the Drake. In fact, I hope they bring up all other Caldari ships to the Drake's standard. That's the way Caldari should be. They should have exceptional shield tanks with reliable, if not low, DPS at their assorted ranges.

Originally by: Lili Lu

I'm a Drake hater, and have been ever since the ship came out. So, i'm pleasantly surprised CCP is finally going to do something about the ship imbalance situation. But I'm also realistic, and can easily see CCP shrinking back from the responsible course of action and wimping out in the face of the huge chorus of petulent footstomping.



From everything CCP said in that thread it seems less likely that they will nerf the drake, so I don't get where you get this "pleasantly surprised" feeling.

Originally by: Lili Lu

If CCP does wimp out, my alts will keep flying the stupid things along with all the rest of you in the drake booster club.ugh


You mean if CCP doesn't bend to the will of the masses who have nothing better to do than whine about Caldari in PvP? Please, Drake fleets are killable. VERY killable. The over-popularity of the Drake has more to do with economics and the lack of battleships than it does with the Drake itself. It's easy on the wallet and low on the primary list, and in groups with logistics it out tanks the Canes and Harbis. So what? In close the Harbis and Canes out DPS the Drake. So one has its role and the other has its role. The Drake is supposed to be king of the shield tanking BCs.

Terrance O'Conner
Posted - 2010.12.03 10:25:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Terrance O''Conner on 03/12/2010 10:27:22
Think I'd like to support a change (NERF) to the drake, in order to make it inline with the whole caldari shipline.

If we look at all other classes the gun-boat variant boast the better tank, whereas the missileboat has more of a support role:

Frig:
Merlin: Best shield, 5% resist, 20% optimum to hybrids
Kestrel: Damage bonus (kin [best]), range bonus (velocity)

Cruiser:
Moa: Best shield, 5% resist, 20% optimum
Caracal: Damage bonus (KIN), range bonus (velocity)

BS:
Rokh: Best shields, 5% resist, 20% optimum
Raven: Damage bunus (RoF), range bunus (velocity)

But suddenly in BC class, drake has both the damage boost, best shields, most Mid-slots, and damage resist

To bring the BC class inline I'd like to see drake and ferox switch shield/armour/structure points, lose a mid-slot on drake and change the resist bunus to velocity bonus.

Ferox shouldf have an extra mid-slot, to make it a viable close-range brawler (still low dps, but tank to outlast on even par with other gun-boats)

This way there might even be an incentive to choose btw the two instead of the ferox being a fail-boat. And drake-blobs would still be viable in blobs, as they'd still volley BSs, have relatively good buffer (more inline with other BCs) and their role would be fire-support as it should (just like any other caldari missile-boat)

Just my thoughts on the drake - (which i hate for its easy to use, no real drawback ****).

Edit: Also this could be the first step in implementing the removal of the stupid ship-tier system!

Kai Yuen
Posted - 2010.12.03 14:37:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Terrance O'Conner

Think I'd like to support a change (NERF) to the drake, in order to make it inline with the whole caldari shipline.

If we look at all other classes the gun-boat variant boast the better tank, whereas the missileboat has more of a support role:

Frig:
Merlin: Best shield, 5% resist, 20% optimum to hybrids
Kestrel: Damage bonus (kin [best]), range bonus (velocity)

Cruiser:
Moa: Best shield, 5% resist, 20% optimum
Caracal: Damage bonus (KIN), range bonus (velocity)

BS:
Rokh: Best shields, 5% resist, 20% optimum
Raven: Damage bunus (RoF), range bunus (velocity)

But suddenly in BC class, drake has both the damage boost, best shields, most Mid-slots, and damage resist

To bring the BC class inline I'd like to see drake and ferox switch shield/armour/structure points, lose a mid-slot on drake and change the resist bunus to velocity bonus.

Ferox shouldf have an extra mid-slot, to make it a viable close-range brawler (still low dps, but tank to outlast on even par with other gun-boats)

This way there might even be an incentive to choose btw the two instead of the ferox being a fail-boat. And drake-blobs would still be viable in blobs, as they'd still volley BSs, have relatively good buffer (more inline with other BCs) and their role would be fire-support as it should (just like any other caldari missile-boat)

Just my thoughts on the drake - (which i hate for its easy to use, no real drawback ****).

Edit: Also this could be the first step in implementing the removal of the stupid ship-tier system!


Got it backwards, son. Don't nerf the drake into typical Caldari suckage. Bring other Caldari ships up to the Drake's standard. Then you might actually see something besides Drakes. The REAL reason you only see Drakes is because all other Caldari ships blow at PvP. Caldari are supposed to be king of the shield tanks, but the Drake is the only ship where that shows, so of course it's the only one Caldari pilots use and it's the best option to choose for the shield fleet. Cal-dar-ri... shi-el-d. It's not rocket science. Don't EVER pretend the Ferox can replace the Drake. Rails(and blasters) are a terrible, awful, fail, insignificant and pathetic weapon type and it'll be years before CCP ever fixes that. Instead of whining about the only balanced and viable Caldari PvP ship you should try asking the question "Why only Drakes?" instead of "What can I do to make Drakes suck like the rest of Caldari?".

Snyderm
Posted - 2010.12.03 16:10:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Snyderm on 03/12/2010 16:13:14
Well, I react to the topic this way:

Yes, obviously the drake is vastly OP.

Drake Blobs have made the game boring, because you have to assimilate their ship types and tactics, upgrade to a superior CLASS of ship, or lose. Drakes were laughed at over the years, but as the drake has been more widely used for pvp ops, everyone has had to assimilate or die. So now drakes populate the 0.0 universe in boring sameness. This is the very definition of OP. How can you argue this is not the case?

Ulstan
Posted - 2010.12.03 16:34:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Terrance O'Conner
If we look at all other classes the gun-boat variant boast the better tank, whereas the missileboat has more of a support role:

Frig:
Merlin: Best shield, 5% resist, 20% optimum to hybrids
Kestrel: Damage bonus (kin [best]), range bonus (velocity)

Cruiser:
Moa: Best shield, 5% resist, 20% optimum
Caracal: Damage bonus (KIN), range bonus (velocity)

BS:
Rokh: Best shields, 5% resist, 20% optimum
Raven: Damage bunus (RoF), range bunus (velocity)

But suddenly in BC class, drake has both the damage boost, best shields, most Mid-slots, and damage resist


What on earth are you talking about? The Ferox has the same shield resist/optimum bonus that all the other railboats do. And, like all the other railboats, it's the same useless pile of fail that no one flies. The Drake is, of all those ships you've listed, the only one that really 'works'. Other Caldari ships need to be brought up to the same level.

Complaining that the Drake has more slots than the Ferox is also silly. That's a problem with the tier system, not the Drake. I'd love to see the tier system removed and the tier 1 bc's made even better.

Quote:
Just my thoughts on the drake - (which i hate for its easy to use, no real drawback ****).


Hating the drake because noobs can use it is not a valid argument for nerfing. The Drake has always earned more hatred than it deserves, and I think it's precisely because it's a ship that new players can be moderately effective in pve with only a moderate number of skill points. There's a certain class of dog in the manger players that this apparently drives right up the wall.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.03 16:35:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Lili Lu on 03/12/2010 16:46:00
Originally by: Kai Yuen
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced. When you get 50+ of them all buffer tanking and alpha striking people at upto ~85km as the current FOTM strategy is out there, this underpins their usefulness (max buffer for sig/speed tank and max range with same damage) so this is a scenario specific issue to large fleet warfare. There are counter strategies to this, but drakes+scimitars is an easier to coordinate tactic. The drakes tank or specifically its passive tank does concern us where both can be equally affected in a similar way. Food for thought anyway, we rarely intervene with emergent strategies and tactics as a counter usually matures after some time but will keep an eye on this thread to see what the rest of you think.



From everything CCP said in that thread it seems less likely that they will nerf the drake, so I don't get where you get this "pleasantly surprised" feeling.


Originally by: Kai Yuen
Originally by: Lili Lu

If CCP does wimp out, my alts will keep flying the stupid things along with all the rest of you in the drake booster club.ugh


You mean if CCP doesn't bend to the will of the masses who have nothing better to do than whine about Caldari in PvP?


It appears to me that you have not read the whole thread because Chronitis responded multiple times. He also said this:
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or similar scenarios is more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fights are close ranged and in smaller numbers where med slots count more.

Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.

It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.


And as to the "masses", I believe your viewpoint and Caldari pilots outnumber my viewpoint and the other races, so CCP has already been bending to the masses, which are on your side.

Anyway, speculating more about all his statments it does appear they may be thinking along the lines of reducing the range of heavy missiles and creating a low slot mod to boost missile range so that range mods compete with damage mods in the lows. I suspect we won't see any alteration in Drakes in January other than possibly a reduction in the shield recharge ability of BCs in general because any introduction of low slot mods to boost missile range would necessitate a comprehensive readjustment of all missile ranges (or at least "guided" missile ranges if the possible new low slot mod were only to affect "guided missiles").

edit- along with possibly a lock reange reduction on the ship itself so that if it wants to maintian the range setup it must sacrifice a midslot as well for a sensor booster, or another low slot for a signal amp.

Zyress
Posted - 2010.12.03 16:45:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Terrance O'Conner
Edited by: Terrance O''Conner on 03/12/2010 10:27:22
Think I'd like to support a change (NERF) to the drake, in order to make it inline with the whole caldari shipline.

If we look at all other classes the gun-boat variant boast the better tank, whereas the missileboat has more of a support role:

Frig:
Merlin: Best shield, 5% resist, 20% optimum to hybrids
Kestrel: Damage bonus (kin [best]), range bonus (velocity)

Cruiser:
Moa: Best shield, 5% resist, 20% optimum
Caracal: Damage bonus (KIN), range bonus (velocity)

BS:
Rokh: Best shields, 5% resist, 20% optimum
Raven: Damage bunus (RoF), range bunus (velocity)

But suddenly in BC class, drake has both the damage boost, best shields, most Mid-slots, and damage resist

To bring the BC class inline I'd like to see drake and ferox switch shield/armour/structure points, lose a mid-slot on drake and change the resist bunus to velocity bonus.

Ferox shouldf have an extra mid-slot, to make it a viable close-range brawler (still low dps, but tank to outlast on even par with other gun-boats)

This way there might even be an incentive to choose btw the two instead of the ferox being a fail-boat. And drake-blobs would still be viable in blobs, as they'd still volley BSs, have relatively good buffer (more inline with other BCs) and their role would be fire-support as it should (just like any other caldari missile-boat)

Just my thoughts on the drake - (which i hate for its easy to use, no real drawback ****).

Edit: Also this could be the first step in implementing the removal of the stupid ship-tier system!


Kestrels have no range bonus, that would be nice, make Rocket Kestrels unkitable at Warp Disrupter range but no, no range bonus, 5% damge bonus to non kinetic Missiles and rockets and 10% to Kinetic

NoLimit Soldier
Posted - 2010.12.03 16:45:00 - [59]
 

I haven't ran into one of these drake gangs yet, but having been flying Caldari my entire eve career I feel like I should point out a few things.


1. It isn't like the drake was buffed and NOW its used everywhere. Caldari only has 3 viable solo ships (drake/rook/tengu) so leave the drake alone.

2. The drake gangs are probably ONLY using kinetic damage, missiles damage is easy to mitigate since it is purely speed/sig based. So why no one in one of these nullsec alliances doesn't say "ok everyone fit your kinetic hardeners and keep your speed up" is beyond me. 5 hurricanes with kinetic hardeners and full speed will tear to shreds 5 drakes toe to toe.

3. Unless they photon fit they have a GAPING EM hole.

4. "Because they can project their DPS to insane ranges and have tanks" If this were the case we would have alot of cruise raven gangs as they have more EHP, more range, more damage,SELECTABLE DAMAGE, more tank and the sigs are actually kinda close. Its just a FOTM, get over it.

I'm just confused as to why this is such a big deal, I think a few people just got curb stomped by 10x their fleet size in drakes and they scream overpowered.



Ulstan
Posted - 2010.12.03 16:50:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 03/12/2010 16:53:12
Originally by: Lili Lu

edit- along with possibly a lock reange reduction on the ship itself so that if it wants to maintian the range setup it must sacrifice a midslot as well for a sensor booster, or another low slot for a signal amp.


If that happens, missiles need to do damage instantly. They get a greater range in exchange for taking a long time to reach the target.

Also, what is this nonsense about the Drake being the only ship that doesn't have to choose between gank and tank? What does that even mean? Other ships can put out similar tank/gank #'s. Every other shield based ship similarly doesn't have to choose between tank and gank. Should we start a campaign to nerf all the ships that don't have to choose between tank and propulsion/ewar?

Originally by: NoLimit Soldier

I'm just confused as to why this is such a big deal, I think a few people just got curb stomped by 10x their fleet size in drakes and they scream overpowered.



It shouldn't be a big deal. People just have an irrational hatred of Drakes stemming back to the days when they were angry a 2 week old noob in a drake could do L4's and they still couldn't in their BS. The idea is that Drakes should, apparently, suck as much as every other Caldari ship and so it's utterly unacceptable to have the a battlecruiser from the shield tanking race, that excels in fleets, to have a good shield tank in a fleet set up to support him. Rolling Eyes


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