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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2010.12.06 08:44:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 06/12/2010 08:46:32
On windows you can alt-prsc (capture only current window to clipboard), paste in paint, save in any format you like. Or use any screenshot capturing software which will just silently place screenshot to your desktop.
On mac you can use Cmd-Shift-4-Spacebar-click to get screenshot of any window to your desktop in handy png format.
Under Gnome and KDE (linux) you can just alt-prsc, hit save and get said screenshot on your desktop.

Eft needs it as system would capture image of a whole program. As we don't use virtual desktop approach, imo it's functionality which shouldn't really belong to application and won't be implemented in pyfa.

Sakari Orisi
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.12.06 08:53:00 - [92]
 

I've finished implementing cpu/pg/any-other-attribute-you-may-want-once-settings-are-implemented display in an efficient way for the market browser. It'll be included in the next RC

Sellendis
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:47:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Sellendis on 06/12/2010 10:01:10
Edited by: Sellendis on 06/12/2010 09:48:52
Just a quick question. I noticed in the screen-shots the dark gray theme on Pyfa. Is that the OS theme influenced, or am i missing something here? Because the whole coloring theme kinda looks nice, maybe add color themes to Pyfa itself?

Another idea, maybe add item graph, to compare few weapons/boosters/whatever reload time and stuff?

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:59:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Sellendis
Edited by: Sellendis on 06/12/2010 09:48:52
Just a quick question. I noticed in the screen-shots the dark gray theme on Pyfa. Is that the OS theme influenced, or am i missing something here? Because the whole coloring theme kinda looks nice, maybe add color themes to Pyfa itself?
OS theme. And no, no custom theming for pyfa - following OS look (and feel wherever possible) was our intent since beginning.

Sellendis
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:10:00 - [95]
 

Tnx for the answer :) And if its not troubling, can ya link that OS theme? Looks damn nice on Pyfa.

Aamrr
Posted - 2010.12.06 11:10:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 06/12/2010 11:09:56
Originally by: Sellendis
Tnx for the answer :) And if its not troubling, can ya link that OS theme? Looks damn nice on Pyfa.


It's from the mint-artwork-gnome package here. It's a linux theme Smile. It's called Wild Mint

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2010.12.06 12:32:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 06/12/2010 12:47:17
By the way, for those of you who's interested in latest features/bugfixes, there're daily auto-built packages: nighty
Sometimes they may be broken, but they already contain several recent fixes (namely, crystal implants not affecting shield boost). Today's nighty build will include columns for pg/cpu in item browser.

achoura
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:48:00 - [98]
 

Opening character editor in windows x64 stable build = crash

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: pyfa.exe
Application Version: 0.0.0.0
Application Timestamp: 49180193
Fault Module Name: StackHash_7c5e
Fault Module Version: 0.0.0.0
Fault Module Timestamp: 00000000
Exception Code: 00000000
Exception Offset: 00000000
OS Version: 6.1.7600.2.0.0.768.3
Locale ID: 2057
Additional Information 1: 7c5e
Additional Information 2: 7c5eda3a2aa09c3a791c33848f5fbc26
Additional Information 3: ea75
Additional Information 4: ea75b4bbf0541d836056c69c97fe2c83


P.S. feel free adding that linux theme, you might want an os look but you know there's a reason you have the grey shots at the top of the page and hide windows where no one can see it Very Happy

Mibad
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:53:00 - [99]
 

Doesn't feel as lightweight as EFT, actually feels pretty sluggish. Great concept though.

Every time I add or remove a module the center background flashes white (Pretty annoying TBH).
Can only add or remove drones 1 at a time.
Feels cluttered with words, more graphics instead of letters please (mouse over tell you what it is) Ammos, targeting & misc etc.
Please add all pirate/faction damages so people don't have to add them manually.
Turning modules on or off feels slow, 1 second delay or something here?
1B + ISK is mislabeled as 1G + ISK
Dockable and undockable windows would be nice.
Market menus don't show CPU, powergrid, or calibration.

I only used it for like 10 mins, but your program feels promising. I'll stick with EFT till a lot of these minor problems are sorted out. Good luck!

iekamouse
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:58:00 - [100]
 

First properly working fitting tool for mac users!
Made my EVE experience a lot better, loving it!

Many thanks and keep up the good work..

Aamrr
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:01:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 06/12/2010 23:08:58
Originally by: Mibad
Doesn't feel as lightweight as EFT, actually feels pretty sluggish. Great concept though.



Are there any areas in particular that you feel are working slowly? It feels rather snappy on my box, but then I'm running a different OS than most.

Originally by: Mibad

Every time I add or remove a module the center background flashes white (Pretty annoying TBH).



I'm afraid I can't reproduce this on my box. Perhaps someone else can help fix this.

Originally by: Mibad

Can only add or remove drones 1 at a time.
Feels cluttered with words, more graphics instead of letters please (mouse over tell you what it is) Ammos, targeting & misc etc.



We have icons for most every element in the UI. Even ammunition in the fitting window shows an icon when loaded into a hardpoint. About the only exception is the target & miscellaneous pane. Icons would take up too much space there. We've also been quite diligent about adding tooltips. I admit, there is a lot of information, but then, Pyfa provides more info than EFT does.

Originally by: Mibad

Please add all pirate/faction damages so people don't have to add them manually.



There's an import/export damage profile format. If you would like, I could ask Sakari Osiri to modify one of the reserved posts to contain the appropriate information for copypasta. Very Happy
Originally by: Mibad

Turning modules on or off feels slow, 1 second delay or something here?


Again, I'm not experiencing any delay. Perhaps someone in the Windows camp can speak up here.

Originally by: Mibad

1B + ISK is mislabeled as 1G + ISK


I believe we're going with the Latin abbreviations, where the number 10^9 is associated with the letter G (short for "giga"). Conscious decision here.

Originally by: Mibad

Dockable and undockable windows would be nice.


Admittedly. It might take a bit of work, but we'll take it under consideration.

Originally by: Mibad

Market menus don't show CPU, powergrid, or calibration.



They do now. Just made it into the nightly builds, I believe. Calibration was not included, since the vast majority of modules don't use it, and it would just take up extra space.

Originally by: Mibad

I only used it for like 10 mins, but your program feels promising. I'll stick with EFT till a lot of these minor problems are sorted out. Good luck!


Please check back soon. Many of the issues you brought up have already been addressed or are in progress now.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:30:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Aamrr

Are there any areas in particular that you feel are working slowly? It feels rather snappy on my box, but then I'm running a different OS than most.



He gave some pretty solid examples of how the app feels slow:
- Refreshing all modules and all UI elements after each addition
- Significant time in changing the status of a module

I confirm both of these under Windows and Linux. Last time I looked at this for Pyfa, it was because of the refresh() method refreshing all GUI elements instead of just the ones it needed. While I admit to only a cursory look at the code, it looks like the same design pattern persists. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the cause of the flashing.

Quote:
Pyfa provides more info than EFT does


I wouldn't say that Pyfa provides much more information than EFT. Can you provide a list of these improvements over EFT?

Quote:

There's an import/export damage profile format. If you would like, I could ask Sakari Osiri to modify one of the reserved posts to contain the appropriate information for copypasta. Very Happy



God forbid an open source project do the "user friendly" thing. Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Mibad

I believe we're going with the Latin abbreviations, where the number 10^9 is associated with the letter G (short for "giga"). Conscious decision here.



/facepalm

Now that's a pretty stupid decision. Nobody in Eve calls it Giga, and neither should you. You aren't going to revolutionize the whole damn game, and it's just confusing.

-Liang

Sakari Orisi
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:40:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Sakari Orisi on 06/12/2010 23:41:31
Originally by: Liang Nuren

He gave some pretty solid examples of how the app feels slow:
- Refreshing all modules and all UI elements after each addition
- Significant time in changing the status of a module

I confirm both of these under Windows and Linux. Last time I looked at this for Pyfa, it was because of the refresh() method refreshing all GUI elements instead of just the ones it needed. While I admit to only a cursory look at the code, it looks like the same design pattern persists. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the cause of the flashing.




Refresh checks every label it updates before doing so and only actualy calls any wx methods if the text changed. This causes a very minor amount of flicker for changing text, but its about as minimal as I can get it. I'm open to suggestions to improve this, however (doublebuffering is unfortunatly very buggy in windows :/). If the current behaviour is different, thats a bug.


Originally by: Liang Nuren

/facepalm

Now that's a pretty stupid decision. Nobody in Eve calls it Giga, and neither should you. You aren't going to revolutionize the whole damn game, and it's just confusing.


Agreed, and changed

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:43:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Sakari Osiri
Refresh checks every label it updates before doing so and only actualy calls any wx methods if the text changed.


Hmmm... I'll have a look at it again then. I didn't bother digging too deeply because of our previous conversations over the issue.

Originally by: Sakari Orisi
Agreed, and changed


<3 Thanks :)

-Liang

Aamrr
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:51:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 06/12/2010 23:55:35
EDIT: Looks like I type too slowly.

Originally by: Liang Nuren


He gave some pretty solid examples of how the app feels slow:
- Refreshing all modules and all UI elements after each addition
- Significant time in changing the status of a module

I confirm both of these under Windows and Linux. Last time I looked at this for Pyfa, it was because of the refresh() method refreshing all GUI elements instead of just the ones it needed. While I admit to only a cursory look at the code, it looks like the same design pattern persists. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the cause of the flashing.



Alright, alright, we'll look into it.

Originally by: Liang Nuren

I wouldn't say that Pyfa provides much more information than EFT. Can you provide a list of these improvements over EFT?



In no particular order, we show:
  • maximum drone control range

  • missile explosion velocity

  • target size for scan probes

  • simultaneous defense profile (passive/active shield/armor)

  • DPS breakdown (turret vs. drone)

  • the current damage profile

  • raw HP values.


Originally by: Liang Nuren

God forbid an open source project do the "user friendly" thing. Rolling Eyes



*shrugs* Fine, fine, we can generate it in the default savedata.db when one is absent.

Originally by: Liang Nuren

/facepalm

Now that's a pretty stupid decision. Nobody in Eve calls it Giga, and neither should you. You aren't going to revolutionize the whole damn game, and it's just confusing.

-Liang


Fair point. Changed 20 seconds ago. It'll make it into the next release.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.07 00:02:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/12/2010 00:15:02
Originally by: Aamrr

In no particular order, we show:
  • maximum drone control range

  • missile explosion velocity

  • target size for scan probes

  • simultaneous defense profile (passive/active shield/armor)

  • DPS breakdown (turret vs. drone)

  • the current damage profile

  • raw HP values.




Everything except the scan probe target size and passive/active shield being separated out are easily obtainable in EFT. Even the passive/active shield separation can be deduced if you're willing to do some math. But for most of it, you'll have to look at the tooltips, which IIRC are broken when running under WINE.

-Liang

Ed: I'm not trying to take away your accomplishments BTW. I have always been a big fan of Pyfa, but I do like to have accurate facts. Also, I think that the dev team should be very careful when refusing requests. Try not to come off as an ass or make light of your customer's request. And they are your customers.

Aamrr
Posted - 2010.12.07 05:03:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

Everything except the scan probe target size and passive/active shield being separated out are easily obtainable in EFT. Even the passive/active shield separation can be deduced if you're willing to do some math. But for most of it, you'll have to look at the tooltips, which IIRC are broken when running under WINE.

-Liang

Ed: I'm not trying to take away your accomplishments BTW. I have always been a big fan of Pyfa, but I do like to have accurate facts. Also, I think that the dev team should be very careful when refusing requests. Try not to come off as an ass or make light of your customer's request. And they are your customers.


Forgive me, I'm operating under Linux and forced to use EFT under Wine. If a bit of functionality isn't working for me, then I don't have any mechanism to find out otherwise.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty certain that EFT does not display the current damage profile setting to the user unless you open the editor, so I'm fairly certain that fact is correct. I'm going to assume that you're right on the rest.

If I've been coming off as rude, I apologize. I do appreciate the feedback and review, and I do make mistakes. Thank you for correcting my errors. I'll endeavor to be kinder in the future.

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2010.12.07 09:06:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/12/2010 00:15:02
Ed: I'm not trying to take away your accomplishments BTW. I have always been a big fan of Pyfa, but I do like to have accurate facts. Also, I think that the dev team should be very careful when refusing requests. Try not to come off as an ass or make light of your customer's request. And they are your customers.
Agreed, but that happens only because someone posts before whole team agrees wrt some issue/request. So even if someone posts here 'no', things are still likely to change.

pg/cpu columns are being one of the examples :)

Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.12.07 14:05:00 - [109]
 

Small comment - the popup for "needed skills" could do with lasting as long as you keep hovering over the little book icon. At the moment it disappears after a few seconds even if you're still hovering, which makes it awkward if you're looking at a fit with a long list of needed skills (e.g. if you're planning ahead to skills you want in order to fit stuff), you have to keep refreshing the popup.

Shadow Nebulae
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:19:00 - [110]
 

This is so much better than EFT. And it even has a installer for windows.

achoura
Posted - 2010.12.07 23:24:00 - [111]
 

Been through several nightly builds, both windows installer & archive (including the RC) and they all crash upon opening the character editor. Has anyone got this running on w7 x64?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.08 00:21:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: achoura
Has anyone got this running on w7 x64?


Yea

Shadow Nebulae
Posted - 2010.12.08 00:31:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: achoura
Been through several nightly builds, both windows installer & archive (including the RC) and they all crash upon opening the character editor. Has anyone got this running on w7 x64?
I have win7 64bit here and working perfectly.

Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2010.12.08 01:19:00 - [114]
 

Late-night brainfart: It would be awesome if the "missing skills" could be exported in EveMon format by for example right clicking the angry red skillbook or something.

Keep up the awesome work.

Luckytania
Gallente
Bullets of Justice
Posted - 2010.12.08 08:23:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: Luckytania on 08/12/2010 08:27:03
I've played with it a couple of hours now. Very nice.

Although I almost deleted it over the deal-breaker issue of pg/cpu in Market as I was reading the resistance to adding that. :) (I added the patch in this thread. On my system works entirely quick enough even with that "shi" search test.)

First, some atta-boys:
1) Does appear more accurate in some areas than EFT.
2) I much appreciate the drone range and other drone and missile support numbers.
3) Nicely done NPC specific damage tables.
(which do need to be populated "out of the box" as well as having the editor.)
4) Break out of weapon + drone DPS
5) Module search
6) General attractiveness and layout


Second, general comments/suggestions/requests
(some y'all have already stated are in-progress or under consideration)

1) *Really* need a delimiter of some sort between high/mid/low/rig slots. Perhaps as an interim approach merely three blank, or 'blank' as possible, lines could be inserted? (Just one between high/mid, another one between mid/low and one between low/rig. Three lines total.)

2) As someone else mentioned, would be easier to find things such as armor hardeners if there was some segregation or delimiter between each 'damage type'. Again, something as simple as just a blank line between each 'damage type set' would go a long way.

3) In the "Ships" list allow an option/method to list only the ships which already have definitions. Far more often than not I'm going back to examine/tweak already existing fits rather than creating a new one from scratch. Shorter lists are faster lists to see/perceive/select.

4) Allow fits to be saved along with the pilot. (As well as copy/duplicate and change the pilot on the copy.)

5) *Show* Implants on the ship fit. But define/store them on the Pilot.
(Purely nice to have: Some way to define "implant sets" per pilot for those who make use of Jump Clones to have Combat vs Mining or PvE vs PvP configurations sitting in the vats.)

6) Mining m3/minute as EFT had would be *very* nice. Especially if you do it similar to the new way of showing DPS broken up by drones/weapons/combined for drones/miners/aggregate.


Lastly, flat out defects or major UI blunders:

1) Fails to import any of the .cfg files from the EFT/Setups directory. (I tried three.)

2) 100.2% on PG or CPU is not a "green" condition. It is a failed fit.

3) Item 1 above regarding a delimiter between high/mid/low *really* does degrade the ease of use. Do something, anything, now and then take your time finding a cross-platform solution which is more long term satisfying.

4) Multiple windows containing the fit (center pane) *and* stats (right pane) is *really* needed. I routinely have multiple open in EFT to either a) perform tuning or compare results for various ships for the same pilot, or b) when setting up the same 'ship' for two or more pilots while making the necessary adjustments compensating for the pilot's differences in Skills.

5) Doesn't remember window size and placement between executions. (I assume this also extends to pane size settings but I haven't tested that.)


FYI:
OS X 10.6.5 | Windows XP (All my testing tonight was on OS X.)
MacPro3,1 (early 2008)
Dual quad-core 3.2GHz
16gb RAM
OS X system and Applications on RAID1 SSD (two 'spindles')
Bootcamp on another, single, SSD
Dual monitors (30" and 24" Apple Cinema Displays)
EVGA GTX 285


PS: Happy to see the shift to Python and open source. I look forward to keeping all the Setup files in a common location and using the native pyfa application on whichever OS I happen to be running at the time. Good luck and thank you for the effort.

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2010.12.08 09:12:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Luckytania
1) Does appear more accurate in some areas than EFT.
This is only partially true. While we already have several nice 'general' features (much more accurate capacitor stability/draintime simulator, more accurate missile flight range, etc etc), raw data provided by pyfa engine (called eos) may be wrong with regards to specific stacking penalties or certain modules being affected/not being affected when they shouldn't be. I'm responsible for framework which tests these calculations, but for now it's filled with 'common sense' knowledge w/o any actual testing in game, so calculations may have mistakes. I yet have to write tests for everything which is not skill and ship, so actual testing is far away from present time, and we'd really appreciate such miscalculations reported here or via our trac to fix'em asap.
Originally by: Luckytania
3) Nicely done NPC specific damage tables.
(which do need to be populated "out of the box" as well as having the editor.)
Personally, i strongly believe that it should be an option in preference - by default there should be only uniform damage profile, preference menu should have 2 additional options - pure damage profiles (em/therm/ex/kin) and npc damage profiles, which will be added to damage profile menu and nicely grouped when corresponding option is enabled.
Originally by: Luckytania
1) *Really* need a delimiter of some sort between high/mid/low/rig slots. Perhaps as an interim approach merely three blank, or 'blank' as possible, lines could be inserted? (Just one between high/mid, another one between mid/low and one between low/rig. Three lines total.)
This will take some time as it requires us to rewrite from scratch standard widget used for fitting window. Sure, this is one of the features we want to see in pyfa.
Originally by: Luckytania
3) In the "Ships" list allow an option/method to list only the ships which already have definitions. Far more often than not I'm going back to examine/tweak already existing fits rather than creating a new one from scratch. Shorter lists are faster lists to see/perceive/select.
There's already ticket, if i understood you correctly: 68
Originally by: Luckytania
4) Allow fits to be saved along with the pilot. (As well as copy/duplicate and change the pilot on the copy.)
Same, sounds like part of 325

Originally by: Luckytania
5) *Show* Implants on the ship fit. But define/store them on the Pilot.
(Purely nice to have: Some way to define "implant sets" per pilot for those who make use of Jump Clones to have Combat vs Mining or PvE vs PvP configurations sitting in the vats.)
This is already planned (almost since very beginning), support in calculation backend: 28 and in pyfa itself: 27

Originally by: Luckytania
6) Mining m3/minute as EFT had would be *very* nice. Especially if you do it similar to the new way of showing DPS broken up by drones/weapons/combined for drones/miners/aggregate.
I don't think we will broke it up, but we can make dps icon clickable to switch mining/damage modes - will it do?
Originally by: Luckytania
1) Fails to import any of the .cfg files from the EFT/Setups directory. (I tried three.)
We forgot to remove import functionality before release, at the moment it parses only EFT export format (like those guys post on the forums), cfg files have specifics, parsing of which yet has to be implemented.
Originally by: Luckytania
2) 100.2% on PG or CPU is not a "green" condition. It is a failed fit.
Colors were changed recently, now it looks orange. Will be available in next build.

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2010.12.08 09:19:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 08/12/2010 09:19:39
Originally by: Luckytania
4) Multiple windows containing the fit (center pane) *and* stats (right pane) is *really* needed. I routinely have multiple open in EFT to either a) perform tuning or compare results for various ships for the same pilot, or b) when setting up the same 'ship' for two or more pilots while making the necessary adjustments compensating for the pilot's differences in Skills.
No. This is question of concept and was discussed by team internally multiple times. We will provide another tools for comparing setups, but having virtual desktop with multiple fittings+stats windows open is not a way to go.

achoura
Posted - 2010.12.08 10:43:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: achoura on 08/12/2010 10:45:03
Well I worked out why it's crashing. It seems when the windows boarder paddingis set to zero pyfa crashes upon opening the character editor.

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2010.12.08 10:55:00 - [119]
 

What is windows padding and how exactly to set it to zero? I'm running pyfa just fine on win7 x64 atm.

Also please specify which theme you're using (i'm using classic theme, which is non-Aero - this usually makes the difference).

achoura
Posted - 2010.12.08 11:11:00 - [120]
 

It's Aero, and it doesn't happen under classic or basic :) Border padding is under Window Color* and Appearance. R.click > personalise > select aero > select window color > Advanced appearance settings > set border padding to zero.

*They sell windows in the uk, yet they cannot even spell colour Rolling Eyes


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