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Peter Powers
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.12.01 14:51:00 - [61]
 

while i think OP is a troll,

i have to mention that i don't see the learning skill removal all positive either.
training the learning skills gave new players some time to read and try out stuff
in eve before they where able to fly ships that get expensive.

Now we will see noobs in expensive **** much earlier.


On the other hand maybe this will lower the isk-prices for PLEX a bit,
when all those noobs invest their RL money to cope with the ship losses
due to not learning the game.

Troll Bridgington
Incompertus INC
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:02:00 - [62]
 

Why, in my day we had to fly twenty jumps .... TWENTY JUMPS! so we could spend an entire day mining for our learning skills. And we never complained. We spent weeks flying around our ibises and shooting each other while we trained skills so other skills could train faster, and we were content! Now you socialist bastards are shoving this change down our throats despite what the MAJORITY of the playerbase wants!

I swear, the creators of this great game must be turning in their graves... oh wait..

Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:11:00 - [63]
 

Actually I do think there's one aspect from which it's a bad change - lore and roleplay.

I was just starting the third lot of learning skills recently, pretty late in the date as when I first started EVE I opted to learn fun skills first, and only buckled down to learning after a few months of learning fun skills (after all, I didn't know whether I'd be playing EVE for a long time or not when I started).

In my mind, this was like, ok I learned all my basic skills at academy, went out there and did stuff, then I was going back to learn more advanced stuff. Always stuff to learn.

Also, it fits with other games where there is a progression of stats and just generally makes sense from a roleplay perspective (your essential qualities grow somewhat with experience).

But, meh, I'm pretty crazy, so ... Laughing

BrundleMeth
Caldari
Temporal Mechanics
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:18:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion
Learning skills were an unnecessary damper on learning how to have fun in the game starting from day one. This change is a benefit to everyone except sadomasochists, people who feel entitled to seniority advantages and people who want to torture newbies the same way they were.

Agreed...

Two choices:

1). Live with it.
2). Quit EVE.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:19:00 - [65]
 

When I started playing, nobody had learning skills, therefore I demand nobody else have them either.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:34:00 - [66]
 

Y'all capsuleers are tosting in a proll thread.

Dear Windjammer:

Get out, give stuff, <3

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:38:00 - [67]
 

OP/Thread = Rolling Eyes

-1 for you.

Your stuffz gives to me now.


Cournai
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:59:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Cournai on 01/12/2010 16:00:00
Seems like some people still don't get that those sp you get as a compensation for the learnig skills aren't by any means free or bonus. This is beyond stupid. May God have mercy on your soul.

About the rest you are correct. But stop whining about your 25mil. isk. That's laughable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, Klatho, I fixed the mistakes in your post, since you wanted Very Happy to know what you did wrong. Your English is actually quite good for a non-native speaker. To insult someone for their second language skills is childish. I speak German as a second language and I know I screw it up all the time.

Jurij Sieger
Posted - 2010.12.01 16:10:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome I am awesome

-Windjammer


/Les grossman mode on

Wow. Let me catch my breath because I am still in awe about how elite and awesome you are. Damn you seriously are something special, I mean look at you! Wow. Now, please take a step back and literally ***** **** ** *****

How about instead of the 5,3 million SP they send you the ****cheese of an old hobo and then you delete all your stuff? Go to town man, go to town!

etc etc.

/Les grossman off

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.12.01 16:31:00 - [70]
 

Yes OP. You are bitter. Nobody is getting hurt by this.

This is an improvement all around, especially for new players.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.01 16:41:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Cournai
Seems like some people still don't get that those sp you get as a compensation for the learnig skills aren't by any means free or bonus. This is beyond stupid.
No. It's just looking at suddenly having X more useful SP than before as being given X more useful SPÖ kind of, you knowÖ for free.

Royaldo
Gallente
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2010.12.01 16:41:00 - [72]
 

You should be happy because you lost your advantage over other players.


Hooligan Tool
Awww Diddums..
Posted - 2010.12.01 16:55:00 - [73]
 

Yo Windjammer --

You assumed that EVE was going to stay as difficult as it was for you ... forever.
You assumed that you would keep your advantage forever.

You enjoyed the advantage of better skill training for more than three years. You learned skills faster than anyone who didn't commit to all Learnings at 5, and now you're getting more skill points back than anyone who didn't commit to all Learnings at 5. That is called a win-win.

You got more than the ISK you spent back in extra skill points, both while training and as a refund now that the Learnings are going bye-bye. That's another win.

The only constant is that things change. Your only mistake was the assumptions you made when thinking that EVE wouldn't change.

Sieges
Posted - 2010.12.01 17:06:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Bruce Carraway
im quitting over learning skills change; sent me any amount of isk and i will 10x it back to you.

My isk is sent...all of it Laughing

Diesel47
Posted - 2010.12.01 17:08:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Windjammer

If I were convinced that this change would increase the numbers of active players in EVE, Iíd be all for it. It wonít.

-Windjammer



I get alot of my friends to come try eve, when I tell them they have to train learning skills to a certain level before they can do anything they all think it is stupid and a waste of time... aswell as boring.

The less things people see as stupid and boring the better the chances they will play the game.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.12.01 17:19:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
I guess Iím a bitter old vetÖÖÖÖ.by some definitions. Iím not happy about removal of the Learning Skills. I guess some people would call that being bitter. Iíve played EVE for four years and I suppose that some people would consider me a vet. I donít think Iím bitter and I donít necessarily believe Iím a vet, but I donít see why I should be happy about Learning Skills being removed.

As someone who has maxed all 11 of the learning skills Iíve enjoyed an advantage over those who wouldnít commit themselves. Iím about to lose that. Five million three hundred seventy six thousand (5,376,000) skill points is not going to make up for that.

I spent isk on those training skills and I will not be reimbursed for it. CCP says they donít want to because that would inject 16 trillion isk into the economy. Bull plop. By my calculations the very worst theyíd inject is 7.5 trillion and thatís only if 300,000 subscribers had trained all 11 skills. Sure itís not much by my standards these days, but itís still mine and Iíd like it back and the way EVEís economy works it would not have the dramatic effect that CCP suggests it would.

I trained the Learning Skills without some special beginning bonus. No 1.6 times or double speed or whatever the cerebral acceleration bonus is if you buy a Commissioned Officers box set. I did it because CCP led me to believe that if I did, Iíd have the reward of the advantage of a faster training time forever. Why else would anyone train those skills?

It never occurred to me to complain about how long it takes to train things in EVE, be it Learning Skills or high end capital ships skills or whatever else. I understood that this is what people who came before me had to do to get their advantage and it seemed more than fair that I would have to do the same. So I did it without complaint. Another way of putting would be to say I HTFUed and got the job done.

-Loss of advantage.
-Loss of my isk.
-Slower training time than the first 30 days of some newb coming into the game.

Want to tell me again why I should be happy about it and not express my displeasure? Want to tell me about how Iím the one whoís a whiner? It wasnít even the whining of beginners that caused this change. It was the whining of corporations who have such a high rate of turnover that the only chance they have of having large numbers is if those numbers are comprised of beginners and of course they want those beginners to have fast training.

If I were convinced that this change would increase the numbers of active players in EVE, Iíd be all for it. It wonít.

-Windjammer




Uh you still have an advantage on quite a few people....care to consider that before freaking out. Your punishment is me making you figure it out for making me read your post.

Zaknussem
Everybody Loves Donuts
Posted - 2010.12.01 17:28:00 - [77]
 

Adapt or die. It's that simple.

Since it's not your game, crying isn't gonna change anything.

gfldex
Posted - 2010.12.01 17:33:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
As someone who has maxed all 11 of the learning skills Iíve enjoyed an advantage over those who wouldnít commit themselves. Iím about to lose that. Five million three hundred seventy six thousand (5,376,000) skill points is not going to make up for that.


We know that learning skills are going to be removed since fanfest 2 years ago (think it was Eris who sayed that). We did not know when or how they do it. Well, we did know how they do it when they added SP reimburment in green.

Compared to advanced learning skills at 4, your skills would have given you an advantage over somebody with the same implants after 5 years. Much can change in 5 years. CCP even might have went **** up thanks to some son of some rich dude in iceland who tought he could be a leet banker and played a game that was to big for him.

You gambled and you lost. Should you be happy? Well, I don't think so. Should new players suffer from not feeling any progress for a month because of your broken heart? Well, I don't think so. Do I think you are a selfish *beep* who only cares about himself. Yes, I do.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2010.12.01 17:42:00 - [79]
 

the reason learning skills are bad is because you have to train them to almost max, this takes over 1month, which means noobs cant really play the game untill 1-2 months after playing

lets not forget engineering and electronics to 5 which is another 10 days

basically your ideas are flawed
every time i try to bring a new player in the game the things that kill it are
-no avatar other then square with face
-The UI
- learning skills for 2 months to be able to train skills faster.


CCP themselves said it was a bad idea and the way they are removing the skills means its like they were never there.

Michelle Vega
Posted - 2010.12.01 17:45:00 - [80]
 

Skill Discussion forum is ->> that way.

Linkage

*yawn* ugh

Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.12.01 17:45:00 - [81]
 

tl;dr Rolling Eyes

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.12.01 17:56:00 - [82]
 

1: Good arguements on both sides of this debate. Both points of view are reasonable... however...

2: People that state that learning skills should be removed because they were mandatory for all new players... and in the next breath state that they should be removed because they were useless... should really take a moment to think about what they just said and realize how assinine that statement is.

3: The player that invested in learning skills had some subtle but definite advantages over players that ignored them beyond the obvious, those advantages are now lost. One example would be when new (especially high rank) skills become available with expansions. The compensation of immediate skill point reimbursement now, along with the universal attribute boost, in no way benefits the player that wanted to craft a character that had an advantage when it came to learning newly released high rank skills quickly. This strategy in building a character is now gone.

4: Anything that dumbs down EVE is a bad thing, and unfortunately that is what has happened here. New players rejoice looking at the short term benefits they will receive. Long term players tend to not be pleased because their options on how to build their characters has been curtailed.

5: This is not about older players wanting to "keep the noobs from catching up". That is patently absurd. This change has zero effect on the mythical ability (or need for that matter) for new players to "catch up" with older players. It's about limiting a players options. It's about removing the advantages for creating a main character with learning skills for the long haul, or the advantages of ignoring learning skills for short term/alt/specialty charaters. That level of strategy will no longer exist.

6: While I respect the opposing point of view, I still believe that this is a mis-step on CCP's part... motivated by the desire to appear responsive to player opinion. Player opinion could just as easily say that Level 5 skills take entirely too long to train for considering the degree of benefit they provide. Therefore lets do away with level 5 skills... after all it will help newer players master those skills more quickly and that "HAS" to be a good thing for the game right? RIGHT???

I dislike the term "slippery slope", but this decision is a classic example of that very thing.

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:09:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
1: Good arguements on both sides of this debate. Both points of view are reasonable... however...

2: People that state that learning skills should be removed because they were mandatory for all new players... and in the next breath state that they should be removed because they were useless... should really take a moment to think about what they just said and realize how assinine that statement is.

3: The player that invested in learning skills had some subtle but definite advantages over players that ignored them beyond the obvious, those advantages are now lost. One example would be when new (especially high rank) skills become available with expansions. The compensation of immediate skill point reimbursement now, along with the universal attribute boost, in no way benefits the player that wanted to craft a character that had an advantage when it came to learning newly released high rank skills quickly. This strategy in building a character is now gone.

4: Anything that dumbs down EVE is a bad thing, and unfortunately that is what has happened here. New players rejoice looking at the short term benefits they will receive. Long term players tend to not be pleased because their options on how to build their characters has been curtailed.

5: This is not about older players wanting to "keep the noobs from catching up". That is patently absurd. This change has zero effect on the mythical ability (or need for that matter) for new players to "catch up" with older players. It's about limiting a players options. It's about removing the advantages for creating a main character with learning skills for the long haul, or the advantages of ignoring learning skills for short term/alt/specialty charaters. That level of strategy will no longer exist.

6: While I respect the opposing point of view, I still believe that this is a mis-step on CCP's part... motivated by the desire to appear responsive to player opinion. Player opinion could just as easily say that Level 5 skills take entirely too long to train for considering the degree of benefit they provide. Therefore lets do away with level 5 skills... after all it will help newer players master those skills more quickly and that "HAS" to be a good thing for the game right? RIGHT???

I dislike the term "slippery slope", but this decision is a classic example of that very thing.


So what you are really trying to say is this is just a rant. With point 1 to try and make it seem less so.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:17:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Forum Guy
Originally by: Ranger 1
1: Good arguements on both sides of this debate. Both points of view are reasonable... however...

2: People that state that learning skills should be removed because they were mandatory for all new players... and in the next breath state that they should be removed because they were useless... should really take a moment to think about what they just said and realize how assinine that statement is.

3: The player that invested in learning skills had some subtle but definite advantages over players that ignored them beyond the obvious, those advantages are now lost. One example would be when new (especially high rank) skills become available with expansions. The compensation of immediate skill point reimbursement now, along with the universal attribute boost, in no way benefits the player that wanted to craft a character that had an advantage when it came to learning newly released high rank skills quickly. This strategy in building a character is now gone.

4: Anything that dumbs down EVE is a bad thing, and unfortunately that is what has happened here. New players rejoice looking at the short term benefits they will receive. Long term players tend to not be pleased because their options on how to build their characters has been curtailed.

5: This is not about older players wanting to "keep the noobs from catching up". That is patently absurd. This change has zero effect on the mythical ability (or need for that matter) for new players to "catch up" with older players. It's about limiting a players options. It's about removing the advantages for creating a main character with learning skills for the long haul, or the advantages of ignoring learning skills for short term/alt/specialty charaters. That level of strategy will no longer exist.

6: While I respect the opposing point of view, I still believe that this is a mis-step on CCP's part... motivated by the desire to appear responsive to player opinion. Player opinion could just as easily say that Level 5 skills take entirely too long to train for considering the degree of benefit they provide. Therefore lets do away with level 5 skills... after all it will help newer players master those skills more quickly and that "HAS" to be a good thing for the game right? RIGHT???

I dislike the term "slippery slope", but this decision is a classic example of that very thing.


So what you are really trying to say is this is just a rant. With point 1 to try and make it seem less so.


I'm not trying to "say" anything of the sort. I said exactly what I meant, and gave solid reasons for it without being overly disrespectful to those that hold a different point of view.

Perhaps you should try it sometime...

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:22:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 01/12/2010 18:24:05
Originally by: Ranger 1
4: Anything that dumbs down EVE is a bad thing, and unfortunately that is what has happened here.
Ok, I've had it with this argument. Now I will be nasty.

If someone is such a blithering idiot that he thinks that "durrr... do I want zero or do I want more?" is an even remotely difficult decision (not to mention being so difficult as to present an actual choice), then his is the kind of stupidity that the learning skills were supposedly meant to weed out. Since said idiot is here, complaining, it obviously didn't work and the filtering mechanism serves no purpose and can be safely removed. Moreover, said idiot should rather rejoice that the game is now "dumbed down" to the level where even he can play it. Ironically, but luckily, it rather seems to have the effect of making them ragequit the game, and thus, in their final hour, the skills have the desired filtering effect after all. Yay.

Now, we obviously can't go around removing learning skills every patch ó once they're gone, they're gone ó but I think we can get the leftovers by employing similar levels of "dumbing the game down". I propose widening the login button by 2px or so, thereby obviously making the game much easier start. This should throw the next lot in another hissy fit, and we get rid of that bunch of morons as well. Double-yay.

Rolling Eyes

Titus Phook
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:23:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Titus Phook on 01/12/2010 18:23:58
The skill points we're all getting back aren't free or a bonus that is true. However they are a full and total refund on a skill tree that is now obselete, you've had the increased training speed for x amount of years, faster than the people that didn't bother with them.

Think of it as buying a car, you didn't go for the basic model you went for the all singing all dancing racing stripe model, now that it's no longer required for the purposes it was intended for the maker is buying it back from you at the full cost price, less the running costs, and you still managed to have a nicer car for a good while.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:31:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Feligast on 01/12/2010 18:34:28
With all due respect to Decarus.

Explain to me why we should give a **** if you're happy or not? Rolling Eyes

Decarus
Amarr
Apostlecorp inc.
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:32:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Feligast
I'm surprised this has yet to come up.

Explain to me why we should give a **** if you're happy or not? Rolling Eyes


Hey! I said that already!

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:34:00 - [89]
 

I personally am offended by the loss of the learning skills and other additions and changes made to this game with the intent of making it more fun.

If I wanted to play a fun game I would be playing some other game. Instead I am playing EVE where I martyr myself so that I may feel superior to others who are here to have fun.

I hereby put forward the request to keep the learning skills but also to remove from the game all activities, except for Ibis mining, PI in it's current wrist breaking form and possibly invention, but only if we can find a way to make invention less enjoyable.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:34:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Decarus
Originally by: Feligast
I'm surprised this has yet to come up.

Explain to me why we should give a **** if you're happy or not? Rolling Eyes


Hey! I said that already!


Madmah bad. Still bears repeating.


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