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blankseplocked Proposal pertaining to learning changes, point loss, and Learning V
 
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Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.04 04:05:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: RavenPaine
ok...

I need to ask,


I'm used to it.

Quote:
1.Do you have maxed learning skills ?


Yes.

Quote:
2.What is this immediate loss your refering to ?


The drop from the current 2772 sph to 2700 sph.

Quote:
3.If it's a specific skill in training, please list it.


It's any skill currently being trained at max efficiency.

Quote:
4 When you use the term "we" , who are you refering to ? Because "I" am getting 5.376 million very useful SP on Dec. 14th. Over 100 days worth of useful training = immediate gain where I come from.


The sp is useful on the 13th too. The usefulness just gets axed on the 14th. You aren't getting sp you didn't already have. Thus there is no offset for the 72 sph loss. Just because the old system would take 8 years to come out on top vs the new one, is not an argument.

Mikkaras
Amarr
Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2010.12.04 13:01:00 - [62]
 

For those claiming that it'll be 8 years before you would have less SP than you otherwise would have due to the SP refunded from learning skills: That's a completely bogus argument.

Time spent training the learning skills was time not spent training other skills. Counting the refund toward future gains is invalid. Doing so assumes that receiving no refund would leave you in no worse a state. In fact, not receiving a refund would effectively cost everyone the amount of time they've spent training them, as if they'd been training nothing at all during that time. Obviously, losing that training time, effectively punishing those who trained learning and rewarding those who didn't or haven't yet, would result in far more complaints than the current solution, and rightly so!



What CCP should do is almost exactly what the OP stated: Make the attribute modifier +10 instead of +12, and change the SP/hour equation to mimic the effect of the vanishing Learning skill, increasing it 10% across the board. The result of this would be that no one experienced any reduction in training speed, no matter what attribute remap they used. Not a single person would have reason to complain.

Everyone would train as if they had 5/5 in every pair of learning skills, and the training speed for any given set of attributes would map one-to-one to what it is now for those with 5/5. Everyone would effectively have level 5 in all the learning skills, with no skill points or training required.

But for some reason they chose not to do that. I don't know why. If anyone has confirmed information from an official source regarding this, I'd love to know the answer.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.04 15:57:00 - [63]
 

Well at least we haven't completely devolved into an Idiocracy yet. Nice post.

RavenPaine
Posted - 2010.12.04 19:23:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Mikkaras
For those claiming that it'll be 8 years before you would have less SP than you otherwise would have due to the SP refunded from learning skills: That's a completely bogus argument.



First of all, 8 years is the bare minmum that it would take, because most people don't train at 2772 all year long. The realistic time is probably well over 10 years away.

Secondly, this 8 to 11 year time frame is not an "argument" its a FACT.

You trained learnings to max so you could get a payoff later. So did I. Well guess what? We don't have to wait till later for that payoff. Instead of waiting 8/11 years we get the payoff NOW!

I can't imagine buying a lottery ticket, and then b:tching because I won the lotto. Which is exactly what you have done.

RavenPaine
Posted - 2010.12.04 19:33:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
Well at least we haven't completely devolved into an Idiocracy yet. Nice post.


This is a quote from a guy that is b:tching about something that wont happen for almost 10 years. Confused

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.12.04 22:51:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 04/12/2010 23:08:08

EVE probably has the largest share of any MMO of slightly OCD people. I know 'cause I is one Embarassed

Personally, I'm grateful that CCP has decided to reimburse AND increase the base points. They didn't have to do either.

I'm looking to forward to picking-up skills that would have trained at a snails pace (like charisma ones), so I'll be ahead on those in the short-term. In the long-term I'll be ahead too, as I would never have trained some of those skills, and will now benefit from them.

As slightly OCD, I like 2,700 as it is a nicer round number Very Happy

Of all the proposals by people even more OCD than me, the only one I've liked so far is keep the Learning skill and remove the rest, and increase the base points by only 10. That would leave the learning skills category pretty empty though, which would also bug my OCD.

Sub Prime
Posted - 2010.12.05 00:25:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 04/12/2010 23:08:08

EVE probably has the largest share of any MMO of slightly OCD people. I know 'cause I is one Embarassed

Personally, I'm grateful that CCP has decided to reimburse AND increase the base points. They didn't have to do either.

I'm looking to forward to picking-up skills that would have trained at a snails pace (like charisma ones), so I'll be ahead on those in the short-term. In the long-term I'll be ahead too, as I would never have trained some of those skills, and will now benefit from them.

As slightly OCD, I like 2,700 as it is a nicer round number Very Happy

Of all the proposals by people even more OCD than me, the only one I've liked so far is keep the Learning skill and remove the rest, and increase the base points by only 10. That would leave the learning skills category pretty empty though, which would also bug my OCD.



A very decent post. CCP must have immense problems/issues with marketing changes to the players (a probably a few of their own staff :D ).

Mikkaras
Amarr
Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2010.12.06 03:22:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Mikkaras on 06/12/2010 04:19:18
Originally by: RavenPaine
this 8 to 11 year time frame is not an "argument" its a FACT.

You trained learnings to max so you could get a payoff later. So did I. Well guess what? We don't have to wait till later for that payoff. Instead of waiting 8/11 years we get the payoff NOW!

I can't imagine buying a lottery ticket, and then b:tching because I won the lotto. Which is exactly what you have done.


You need to check your "FACTS". And try understanding a whole post before attempting to counter it, otherwise you just display your ignorance.

This is no "lottery ticket". This is no "payoff". This is "refunding removed skills so that you don't lose SP you spent valuable time training".

Allow me a simplified, hypothetical example to help explain why this is the case:

Let's say that CCP did not immediately reimburse all of your learning SP. Let's say that, instead, they fed them back to you at a rate just high enough to make up the difference between the old and new max training speeds, like you are suggesting. Wouldn't you cry foul? Wouldn't you say, "I spent months training those skills, and now I have nothing to show for those months unless and until I have played for another 8 years"?

Now let's make it even clearer why your assumption is wrong: Imagine that learning skills never existed, and that instead, some very useful but very slow to train skill was being removed from game, one that lots of people spent months training to level 5. Perhaps the effect of that skill is being folded into another skill, or even made part of the game, so that the benefit would not be lost but in the future no one would have to spend so much time training it to get that benefit.

Now suppose that instead of reimbursing the SP immediately, CCP decided to dole it out slowly over a long time, perhaps a similar amount of time to this 8+ years some of you keep touting so smugly. Perhaps they claim "It's okay! You'll get future skills faster than you originally trained that one anyway! Think of it as an investment!"

Those who had spent so much time training that skill in order to benefit from it are now suddenly at a disadvantage, compared to those who spent that time training other things and suddenly have the benefit for free. Just because the former aren't losing that benefit, despite the vanished skill, doesn't reduce their disadvantage. The time they spent training it could have been spent training other things. But now, even though they'll train minutely faster, they're going to be behind in skills (possibly far behind) until the entirety of that SP has finally been refunded (8+ years).

As in this example, anyone who claims that the SP refunded from the Learning skills should be considered a "gift" which should be counted against future training speed is basically saying, "It doesn't matter that you already earned them by virtue of the time spent training them. You must treat these SP as an investment and use them to compensate for the reduced maximum training speed."

The whole point of getting the refund immediately is that to do otherwise would be wildly unfair to everyone who has even a single Learning skill trained. It doesn't matter that they trained faster since doing so - once the change is made, that becomes irrelevant. And most people haven't even reached the "break even" point from the time invested in that training.

FACT: Most people will train faster than they did. Cheers!

FACT: Some people with maxed learning and expensive implants and remaps for optimized training plans are getting mildly shafted. Boo!

FACT: The refund is irrelevant to a discussion of whether or not the second group is shafted, because it is required to make up for the loss of time spent on previously trained skills, and therefore has no bearing on future training speed.

In other words: You can't count your SP twice, whether they're old or new! Each one can only be assigned one place!

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.06 05:42:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: RavenPaine
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Well at least we haven't completely devolved into an Idiocracy yet. Nice post.


This is a quote from a guy that is b:tching about something that wont happen for almost 10 years. Confused


No, I'm pretty sure you already embarrassed yourself.

Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:38:00 - [70]
 

How about people just stop whining about such a tiny tiny nerf and consider the greater good.
I have have maxed learning for a few years now and I welcome this change as learning skills serve to keep new players from enjoying and learning EVE. Like it or not EVE needs an influx of new players to stay alive.

RavenPaine
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:42:00 - [71]
 

Mikkaras...

You wrote , like, a wall of text about imaginary scenarios that are about the most irrelevent, disconnected, I can't find a word to describe what all that was....

I can only offer one suggestion to all the people in the "I got screwed, Give me a tissue" camp.

DO NOT turn in your new SP for any new or useable skill! Because if you do you will SCREW YOURSELF !

Instead: Apply those refunded SP at the rate of (24 x 72 = 1728) per day. Apply them exactly to the skill plan you already have and do not deviate. NO CHEATING, like reducing implants or training unmapped skills at less than optimal. Do that for 8.3 years and then start another thread. Because at this point your a little premature.

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2010.12.06 12:29:00 - [72]
 

The claim that "it's not a bonus, it's getting sp we already had back!" is false also, it's no different than investing a large amount of capital into some project that nets you X% profit each month, then you later on sell it later to get your capital back. You have the isk you initially invested back PLUS the profits from each month, and you then get to put that isk into another useful project.

Well guess what: you've had a benefit from faster learning skills, you have more skillpoints than someone who trained from the same time as you but did not max their learnings, then you will get your initial investment back on the 14th. You are not suffering any loss, there was never a guarantee in this game that you will always train at the same rate anyway! CCP have changed skills and the way they are worked out several times in the past, what made you think it wont happen again in the future? There is no 'entitlement' to those 72sp/hr. You have your initial investment, you have had the profits, and now you get to reinvest those sp into something more useful.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.12.06 13:14:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
As slightly OCD, I like 2,700 as it is a nicer round number Very Happy

Of all the proposals by people even more OCD than me, the only one I've liked so far is keep the Learning skill and remove the rest, and increase the base points by only 10. That would leave the learning skills category pretty empty though, which would also bug my OCD.


Another OCD effect is that the attribute points that will be listed in the skill sheet now will be the actual numbers and not numbers with a hidden decimal point. Very Happy

Mikkaras
Amarr
Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2010.12.07 13:40:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Caldariftw123
The claim that "it's not a bonus, it's getting sp we already had back!" is false also, it's no different than investing a large amount of capital into some project that nets you X% profit each month, then you later on sell it later to get your capital back. You have the isk you initially invested back PLUS the profits from each month, and you then get to put that isk into another useful project.

Well guess what: you've had a benefit from faster learning skills, you have more skillpoints than someone who trained from the same time as you but did not max their learnings, then you will get your initial investment back on the 14th. You are not suffering any loss, there was never a guarantee in this game that you will always train at the same rate anyway! CCP have changed skills and the way they are worked out several times in the past, what made you think it wont happen again in the future? There is no 'entitlement' to those 72sp/hr. You have your initial investment, you have had the profits, and now you get to reinvest those sp into something more useful.

You're correct in everything except your very first statement. When you said that "The claim [...] is false also", you were contradicting everything else you say in your post. You, yourself, basically said that the refund is not a bonus, it's "getting your capital back". Thus, refund.

With that caveat, I agree with everything you said. You seem to have the right idea about what's happening. Maybe that claim was simply misunderstood. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

I myself have never remapped and I don't see myself doing so anytime soon. Maybe at some future date I'll come up with a long-term plan and remap for 2700, maybe not.

My main point is that some people, like our friend RavenPaine, are saying things like,
Originally by: RavenPaine
DO NOT turn in your new SP for any new or useable skill! Because if you do you will SCREW YOURSELF !

I mean... I don't even know where to begin with that kind of . It's like he has some kind of shield around every rational part of his brain, completely impenetrable to logical thought. Is he just trolling? One of those people who like to imagine that they're bathing in someone's (equally imaginary) tears? ... Okay, that's a kinda weird image, let's pretend I didn't say that.

Originally by: RavenPaine
Apply those refunded SP at the rate of (24 x 72 = 1728) per day. Apply them exactly to the skill plan you already have and do not deviate. NO CHEATING, like reducing implants or training unmapped skills at less than optimal. Do that for 8.3 years and then start another thread. Because at this point your a little premature.

As mentioned, this doesn't even apply to me since I'm not going to have my training speed reduced, but still - Why? Why is a discussion of an upcoming "nerf" - even such a minor one that so few people care about - "premature"? And most importantly, why in the name of whatever you believe in should anyone sit on a refund of up to 5+ million skill points, which as previously stated, they already earned through months of training, and have no need or reason to "re-earn" like you're suggesting, instead of putting them back into some skill(s) so that these SP are once again giving them some benefit, even if not the same benefit they used to give?

You can't look at old SP from removed skills and say "These are new SP, not old! You should treat them as if you did not already earn them, and do something completely stupid like NOT USE THEM for 8 years in some kind of pathetic protest against CCP's decision to reduce the max training speed! And if you don't do what I say, you're a CHEATING HYPOCRITE! Because I say so! And I'm always right!"

I mean... I guess you can, since that's what you did. But telling people to do that, as if they would be worse off somehow if they did otherwise, is simply insane.

Wait... I withdraw my previous question. I think we just found our explanation.
Laughing

Atra Hasis
Posted - 2010.12.08 16:46:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Atra Hasis on 08/12/2010 18:16:31

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2010.12.08 22:35:00 - [76]
 

hmmm... let's see. If we lose 72 sp/hour of training speed then we lose 72 x 24 x 365 a year, if u were wondering, that's equal to 630720sp a year. FFS, u can't be that greedy.

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.12.09 12:32:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian


The sp is useful on the 13th too. The usefulness just gets axed on the 14th. You aren't getting sp you didn't already have. Thus there is no offset for the 72 sph loss. Just because the old system would take 8 years to come out on top vs the new one, is not an argument.



This has nothing to do with the argument for getting rid-of versus keep them. It's just a resulting argument that has developed from the way CCP have chosen to remove the learning skills. If people had got that extra 72 sp/h then there would have been even less fuss about the removal of those skills.

Ecks Orion
Proposition Thirteen
The Third Rail
Posted - 2010.12.10 01:44:00 - [78]
 

It's really strange to me that there are people who put more value on the actual number of skill points they have accumulated than on what those skill points allow their character to do.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.12.10 10:32:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Ecks Orion
It's really strange to me that there are people who put more value on the actual number of skill points they have accumulated than on what those skill points allow their character to do.


This, really.

It's especially nice for me, as I will get an extra 2M SP of usable skills before I hit the 92.5M SP cap (I draw the line at 20M ISK clones; 30M ISK is just too much). Yet another way in which this change benefits veteran players.

Neophlim Angelicus
Posted - 2010.12.10 11:37:00 - [80]
 

Having only been a player for less than 1 year and having maxed out all the 11 learning skills, I feel somewhat ripped off. I put in the hard yards so that after 3 years I would start to get the edge on other players who did not put in the time and patience to train these skills. I can understand that CCP wants to attract the meatheads that desire nothing more than to get into PvP quickly. I dont know why they just didn't get rid of all the skills in total and give every newby a top of the range fully equiped ship. I had some belief that this game seperated the men from the neandethals. Maybe not.
A couple of questions I have are. Will the ISK spent on buying and injecting the original skillbooks be reinbursed? Will implants to assist in learning skills still be available? Will I be reimbursed for the months my characted needed to stay in station while the learning skills trained?
****ed? YOU BET.

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.12.10 13:10:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Neophlim Angelicus
Having only been a player for less than 1 year and having maxed out all the 11 learning skills, I feel somewhat ripped off. I put in the hard yards so that after 3 years I would start to get the edge on other players who did not put in the time and patience to train these skills.


That's the problem with any long-term investment. There's always a chance that any long-term investment can turn sour over time, it's part of the risk you take.

Hooligan Tool
Awww Diddums..
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:58:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Neophlim Angelicus
A couple of questions I have are. Will the ISK spent on buying and injecting the original skillbooks be reinbursed? Will implants to assist in learning skills still be available? Will I be reimbursed for the months my characted needed to stay in station while the learning skills trained?

In order:
If you trained the skills, then you already have seen benefit from them, even if only in greater training speed for the next Learning skill. You will not be refunded the ISK.
Implants are not affected by the change. They will still be available, and in your character's head if they have implants now.
Yes. The Learning skill points are being refunded. That is your reimbursement.

Look at it this way -- you planned for the long haul, and it paid off suddenly and quite unexpectedly instead. You will still be ahead of those who didn't train all the Learnings to V.

Your objections are noted. You have vented your hurt feelings and frustrations. Get over it. HTFU.


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