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blankseplocked [URGENT ISSUE] Do not remove learning skills - its UNFAIR
 
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Gallians
Posted - 2010.11.26 18:03:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
shut up, get out, give stuff


Confirming this is the best course of action.

AFK Hauler
Posted - 2010.11.26 18:23:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Hot damn, can you guys imagine if Eve combat was as cool as Asteroids?!

That's my next proposal, right there.




I can't shoot the roids!!!

I support this idea. ASTEROIDS RETURNS!!!


Oh, and to the OP, No! Compromise is going to make someone unhappy, always. This time it's you and not me. Next time, I'm sure it will be flipped around.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2010.11.26 18:30:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/11/2010 18:31:49
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/11/2010 18:30:29
Reported OP for personal attacks and trolling.

Seriously... people seriously lack the ability to read and or understand.

Read the eff'ing dev blog nooblet and you just might get somewhere.

I've trained the learning skills up...and I "wasted" all that time on them.

Been playing 2 Years... you don't see me crying over it... why? Because they are giving me those SP's to use elsewhere.

If it wasn't for that little detail... and the fact we are getting +12's... I'd be a little ****ed.

But honestly this is the best way to do it IMHO...and I was in FAVOR of Learning skills.

Those who chose to not invest the time in it... well tough... at least your getting +12's...so seriously... STFU And deal with it... or GTFO because this is far better than just "removing the skills".

At least CCP actually put some time and effort into this... I'll give them credit for that much. Now if they could just fix their game.

All I see here is a spazzing emo-raging noob who has no idea what he's talking about. Hope you quit and give me your stuff. : O P

Jennifer Drama
Posted - 2010.11.26 20:57:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
shut up, get out, give stuff


quotin dis

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.11.26 22:21:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: shinaide
I made this choice and the sacrifice. I am also happy to see the skills go. They are really really stupid. We already received years of training at increased speeds and now we can take our "useless" SP and stick it into something better.


This. Thank god the learnings are going away.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.11.26 22:21:00 - [36]
 

Speaking as someone with 5,376,000 Learning Skill sp:

The OP can go suck an egg.

Harotak
Malicious Destruction
Posted - 2010.11.26 22:37:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Harotak on 26/11/2010 22:37:41
7/10, OP got some real hate flowing

Rhok Relztem
Caldari
CGMA Synergist Syndicate
Posted - 2010.11.27 23:30:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Too late. Get over it.

“The old order changeth, yielding place to new, And God fulfills himself in many ways, Lest one good custom should corrupt the world...."

- Tennyson

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

- Rev. 21:4

But when the new PLEX for Remaps was being introduced, none of this applied nor was relevant? Hypocrite. Twisted Evil

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2010.11.28 05:24:00 - [39]
 

Anyone who thinks learning skills are/were a good idea is dumber than Glenn Beck believing (or claiming to believe) that Communists are preparing to take over America.

If your supporting this topic please: Drink the koolaid when it's offered and stfu.

Rhok Relztem
Caldari
CGMA Synergist Syndicate
Posted - 2010.11.28 06:42:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Rhok Relztem on 28/11/2010 07:31:34
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Anyone who thinks learning skills are/were a good idea is dumber than Glenn Beck believing (or claiming to believe) that Communists are preparing to take over America.

If your supporting this topic please: Drink the koolaid when it's offered and stfu.

(Just took the most current. Many of you affected the following...)

Very mature group in these forums. Makes me proud to be associated with you all.
/sarcasm off

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.29 06:23:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Sed Man on 29/11/2010 06:28:15
Edited by: Sed Man on 29/11/2010 06:24:49
Originally by: shinaide
I made this choice and the sacrifice. I am also happy to see the skills go. They are really really stupid. We already received years of training at increased speeds and now we can take our "useless" SP and stick it into something better.


Exactly the view of most players who are 2.5+years in who skilled to lvl5s.
And almost exactly the same goes for players 2.5 year in who didn't. They get their SP back and are happy to know that they never have to worry about anyone EVER catching up with them.


However if you are less than 12 months old and you actually PLANNED to catch up with those players who are 2 years old and who didnt plan to lvl5 at the start, your hopes are dashed.

And those saying "there is no choice, EVERYONE skills learning to lvl5's then you are full of BS, the average SP in learning skills is just over 2Mill SP. not 5million as some keep stating.

There were 3 ways to effect the SP/hr ratio, one of those has just been removed and that is a bad thing.

Why not just give all toons the ability to fly a drake in the first place if you want everyone to have fun out of the box...

Just removes an important aspect to skill planning and gives everyone a very static SP/hr ratio entrenching older players SP advantage.

Having said that, I AGREE with the changes, I just wish I hadnt wasted my time planning to do 2772SP/hr with the view that others were doing less and I would catch up.

SO essentially, this helps anyone already ahead and removes the only method of ever catching or surpassing someone regardless of your or their ability to play this game.

Atius Tirawa
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.29 09:24:00 - [42]
 

I agree that eve is selling their hard-core players for more 2/3 monthers - but the game has been moving in that direction for awhile no. . . so just sit back and watch all the dev efforts slowly shift to WoD and thn they can really make a high turnover, mass profit, dad in 2/3 years easymode game.

therre are other games, and30 bucks a month is not enough for me to quit over.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.11.29 10:53:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Anubis Xian on 29/11/2010 10:56:27
So what? So what if Eve finally is friendly to people who don't sub for six months right away?

In relative terms, those of us who stuck it out are not picky enough consumers, because we paid to wait to pay to play.

It would be like (insert generic MMORPG) saying you have to level to 20 before you can have any abilities. Except that (insert generic MMORPG) doesn't make getting level 20 take 4-6+ weeks.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.29 14:46:00 - [44]
 

I can't wait to re-allocate all of my learning SP in two weeks time. I'm even training Presence 5 in anticipation of it. Laughing


Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2010.11.29 17:49:00 - [45]
 

CCP themselves stated learning skills were a mistake. you do realize this right?

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.11.29 18:34:00 - [46]
 

Learning skills suck. I've been playing for 3 years with 2 accounts and that does not change my opinion. They should be removed. So no, I do not support your proposal.

ninjaholic
Gallente
House Aratus
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.11.29 18:45:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: ninjaholic on 29/11/2010 18:45:30

NOT supported.

Begone learning skills!

Eve needs a slightly less damaging noob-curve. The eradication of learning skills removes this, and places skill firmly into attribute allocation, however it removes the first month of boredom for noobs where you can't do anything but play WoW or Left4Dead until learning is done.

That is not fun. I know, because I've done it, and am proud to have all my learning skills to 5.

I am DELIGHTED they're being removed so I can max out a pile of Charisma-based skills I hate.

Removal of learning skills is win. Of the epic type.

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2010.11.29 19:29:00 - [48]
 

There is no downside to this removal. I've read the complaints and they are found either wanting or ignorant.

Nobody has lost any time here. Because you're getting back those points, you'll basically be swapping the time you spent training learning skills for whatever time you save on what skills you apply the point reimbursement to. Anyone who thinks otherwise can get bent.

Now stop "wasting your time" on something that unlike the PLEX debacle, CCP won't crumble on and go play the game you're paying for.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.11.30 03:44:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Atius Tirawa
I agree that eve is selling their hard-core players for more 2/3 monthers - but the game has been moving in that direction for awhile no. . . so just sit back and watch all the dev efforts slowly shift to WoD and thn they can really make a high turnover, mass profit, dad in 2/3 years easymode game.



Sad but true. Someone in marketing is of the opinion that the only thing holding Eve back from 5m subscribers is it's not easy enough.
They don't realise it has it's niche market and the difficulty is a major drawcard.

Easy mode for the lose.

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2010.11.30 04:14:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: MataHarry
Edited by: MataHarry on 26/11/2010 15:26:06
tl'dr - do not let eve turn into

Proper text

Removing learning skill is unfair towards those people who INVESTED time and patience into developing them. Some people invested into PRESENCE 5, even though they had low charisma attribute, the reason they did it - is because they PLANNED in advance that they would want to train for leadership skills in the future. So they accepted lower training rate in return for future benefit. This decision-making was possible because CCP had A SET OF DEFINED RULES, which prescribes how game will be in the number of years down the road. Right now time spent doing this seems like a waste.

Certainly there were similar examples in the past. When CCP changed all probes, a lot of people lost money on their blueprints. And being a reasonable person, I am willing to accept that certain changes are necessary for progression of the game. However there should be a line beyond which CCP should not go.

EVE Online is all about decision making, you today’s decisions affect your future, but that is only possible if rules are unchanged and clear. The way it looks now is that CCP keeps changing those rules. That habit can have adverse consequences.

At least part of EVE's success is attributable to the fact, that CCP has extremely LOYAL base of subscribers. Such changes as remaps, plex for remaps, removal of learning skills will move game to more casual domain, but will dilute base of hard-core loyal players. Hence CCP will have higher volatility of cash flows and higher turnover of player.

DO NOT MOVE INTO THAT DIRECTION.

NOT BENDING to general market trend, does not mean you are becoming dinosaurs. Rather that company is choosing its own path for success.

VOTE FOR NO TO REMOVING LEARNING SKILLS

Here is the opposite thread, feel free to check with supporters of learning skills removal





^^ I think someone moved his cheese...

I support the removal of these useless skills.
They presented a down right annoying barrier of entry. without them new players can spend training time on relevant skills, rather than training to train faster. remaps and implants allow for the improved benefits for those that want it.
I cant tell you how many new players (and people trainign alts) have cringed at the idea fo having to spend 2-3 months before they can train skills at a reasonable rate..

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2010.11.30 04:22:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Originally by: Atius Tirawa
I agree that eve is selling their hard-core players for more 2/3 monthers - but the game has been moving in that direction for awhile no. . . so just sit back and watch all the dev efforts slowly shift to WoD and thn they can really make a high turnover, mass profit, dad in 2/3 years easymode game.



Sad but true. Someone in marketing is of the opinion that the only thing holding Eve back from 5m subscribers is it's not easy enough.
They don't realise it has it's niche market and the difficulty is a major drawcard.

Easy mode for the lose.



It makes me laugh that you assume all "hardcore" or old players think learning skills were so awesome. My character has 73mil sp, I've been playing since 06 and I've always thought they were pants on head ******ed.

Removing learning skills wont make the game easier. It will simply be the removal a very bad piece of game design that shouldn't have been in Eve in the first place. It doesn't make anything easier except the first 2 weeks of grind. If you guys are so attached to hazing maybe you should join a fraternity. Brofist.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.11.30 08:16:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Originally by: Atius Tirawa
I agree that eve is selling their hard-core players for more 2/3 monthers - but the game has been moving in that direction for awhile no. . . so just sit back and watch all the dev efforts slowly shift to WoD and thn they can really make a high turnover, mass profit, dad in 2/3 years easymode game.



Sad but true. Someone in marketing is of the opinion that the only thing holding Eve back from 5m subscribers is it's not easy enough.
They don't realise it has it's niche market and the difficulty is a major drawcard.

Easy mode for the lose.



The only thing 'hard' about learning skills is convincing yourself to keep your sub active while training them.

Cid SilverWing
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.11.30 13:49:00 - [53]
 

Learning skills = 2-3 months of blasting your thrusters in place for long-run training speed increase.

New system - removal of Learning and refunding SP then adding in +12 unremappable base stats = faster base training overall and you get to spend the wasted points in more critical skills.

Read the dev blogs before you spout your nonsense in the forums.

Tset Tsun
Posted - 2010.11.30 17:24:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith

* Gets millions of extra skillpoints for the "reembursement" for their susposed "loss" (more about reduction of tears then balance)


Is this correct?
From the dev blog I got only this:
"2,012,692 SP in learning, you will find yourself down those skills, but with 2,012,692 skillpoints to redistribute."

I didn't catch any reference to getting more?

Dav Varan
Posted - 2010.11.30 17:33:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Tset Tsun
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith

* Gets millions of extra skillpoints for the "reembursement" for their susposed "loss" (more about reduction of tears then balance)


Is this correct?
From the dev blog I got only this:
"2,012,692 SP in learning, you will find yourself down those skills, but with 2,012,692 skillpoints to redistribute."

I didn't catch any reference to getting more?


Lets introduce the equivelent of effective skill points.


Your getting 5.5M effective skill points ( Everyone is ).

2M ( that you have in current learning ) you will get in the form of redistibutable skill points.

3.5M you will get in the equivelent of attribute boost ( as if ccp magically boosted all you learning skill to max ).


Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.30 19:40:00 - [56]
 

To the guy who mentioned that removing the learning skills will be unfair to those who "didn't" invest in them, the math simply doesn't support his argument.

Let's assume, for the sake of this argument, that there are two capsuleers with 70mil SP each. One has invested 2mil SP for learning skills, the other never did invest in them. Once the learning skills are removed and any SP invested into them have been reimbursed for allocation (as per the developers), the capsuleer who invested those 2mil SP for learning will just simply move the SP to other skills he should've been invested in long ago. The other capsuleer, who invested none, will just have the same SP the way they are already setup. In fact, he will still have the same amount of SP as the other capsuleer. At the same time, both capsuleers will have the +12 bonuses given to them once the learning skills are removed.

No one will have gained nor have lost SP in the process abd both stand to benefit from the new bonus that comes after the removal of learning skills.

Jaizak Aripaik
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.01 13:01:00 - [57]
 

I INVESTED in Learning skills, and it nearly caused me to quit the game. I started an alt, and deleted the account because of learning skills. They're awful, a long, boring period of effective character stagnation while you wait to get up to speed.

I don't feel cheated for having learning skills removed. I'd rather have a bigger, more vibrant community than a few super smug pilots flying around and congratulating themselves for their long term planning.

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.12.01 14:05:00 - [58]
 

Wow, the OP is already trolling his own thread.

There is not a single valid reason for keeping learning skills. None whatsoever. Some trolls have *attempted* to think of a good reason, but they've all fallen to reason and common sense.

Face it OP, you are in the very VERY small minority who actually wants to keep this atrocious piece of gameplay. It doesn't matter how loud you are nor how many alts you use to agree with yourself, facts are facts. It's a horrible game design and you're a tiny minority who wants to keep it.

Some player ran his own voting poll to see how many people wanted to keep it verses how many want it gone. Last time I checked that poll was 83% in favor of removing it, 17% in favor of keeping it.

It is the biggest barrier to new players. If CCP ever intends to grow it's playerbase, learning skills have got to go plain and simple. It was a bad game design that CCP freely admitted was bad and wanted it gone. Now it is. Accept it or leave. You will be a very small portion of the population who does leave. So small in fact that *maybe* a couple of GMs might notice a ten cents decrease in pay.

And enough of this "I suffered so you suffer too" bullcrap. If I had to walk to school in the snow up hill both ways with no shoes, it doesn't mean future generations are required to as well. That's just stupid.

Miss President
Caldari
SOLARIS ASTERIUS
Posted - 2010.12.02 04:54:00 - [59]
 

just by reading all the PRO topics, in comparison to much lesser amount of against

then in each against topic there is about 20x more PRO posts, so stop bothering yourself.

NO, not supported.

Jaylance
Posted - 2010.12.03 10:24:00 - [60]
 

Ok so we are geting rid of learning skills becouse they dont give instant gratificaiton? Becouse really thats what this is about. New players dont want to train these long boring skills becouse they dont give instant gratification. However they do get trained becouse in the long run, it will maximize your performance. So since we are geting rid of boring stuff does that mean we are going to get rid of other boring stuff? How about L V skills? Those are long and boring too. Geting rid of those will defenatly help in geting instant gratification.

Ok thats all just silly talk, but it does show a point. And I do understand why they are getting removed. New players felt they had to train somthing that gave them no fun right away. It would take over a year before they started seeing a return on the investment. And thats even if they stuck it out a year, becouse all that learning training made the game boring so they left. Now I am one of those people who trained his learning up to 5/5. I felt this was a strategic move on my part. I decided to suffer now so I could enjoy more later. And I did my suffering, now its time for my enjoyment. And now I learn that I did not have to suffer threw that, I just had to wait and I could have goten the enjoyment for free. It just makes me feel like I am getting cheated.

Now I know people are saying but you got to enjoy all that xtra learning speed. Which is true in once sense. However those who did not, got to enjoy that new shiny ship while I was still flying around my rust bucket. And in some cases its even worse. This character had just finished geting learning to 5/5. And has not even begun to reap the benifiets of those points. Infact since he was not optimized for these skills he would have been beter off training somthing that was not learning.

So I think we deserve more then just the skill points back. even a 1:1.1 return would mean somthing to me. So instead of just geting back my 5,376,000 SP back, I should get back 5,913,600. Or somone who only trained to 2m SP would get 2.2M sp back. Just sort of a sorry for that sucky training you had to do.


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